When did it become more about that matches and less about the build and personalities? I love old school wrestling the over the top angled and promos and when talking them into the arena was more important than what happened between the ropes.

Like Hogan/Piper WM1 - I don’t know anyone that would expect that to be some amazing match or would consider it now , but it was probably one of the most anticipated matches ever to that point and later you could say the same
about Hogan and Andre. That match is iconic and it’s not going to win any MOTY awards by today’s standards.

Was it Bret and Shawn that changed the formula? At least in the WWF? The Attitude Era where they could be larger than life and put on 30 minute mains if needed? Is that was ultimately killed WCW?

Was it way later with the rise of the indies or the Smackdown 6? I’m just curious.

I do miss the old days where the most important thing about a card was who was on it and why they were fighting as opposed to if they could wrestle a five star classic.

Not that there isn’t room for both either. Just mainly thinking out loud.

Jun 24, 2021 15:21:14 GMT UT said:

When did it become more about that matches and less about the build and personalities? I love old school wrestling the over the top angled and promos and when talking them into the arena was more important than what happened between the ropes.

Like Hogan/Piper WM1 - I don’t know anyone that would expect that to be some amazing match or would consider it now , but it was probably one of the most anticipated matches ever to that point and later you could say the same
about Hogan and Andre. That match is iconic and it’s not going to win any MOTY awards by today’s standards.

Was it Bret and Shawn that changed the formula? At least in the WWF? The Attitude Era where they could be larger than life and put on 30 minute mains if needed? Is that was ultimately killed WCW?

Was it way later with the rise of the indies or the Smackdown 6? I’m just curious.

I do miss the old days where the most important thing about a card was who was on it and why they were fighting as opposed to if they could wrestle a five star classic.

Not that there isn’t room for both either. Just mainly thinking out loud.

Personally I think it happened in 2009 when they started doing gimmick PPVs and even had the special general managers. I don't think it was really about match quality with the WWE as much as it became about the brand being bigger than any star. When anything really happens anymore it's the WWE doing something wild and wacky.

I'd say it started it earnest around 1999 when Russo left and they lost their auteur. That's when they started hiring writers and they toned down the product and the whole thing became micro-managed.

I guess you could say it would inevitably turned this way after Vince Jr bought the company in 1982. Pro Wrestling was always sold on the idea that these wrestlers were trying to get themselves over which is why W/L mattered, that was their business. When wrestling exploded that became less of an issue and everyone just wanted to go to the WWF. Then when guaranteed contracts came into the mix around 1996 it just changed things further.

When the generation who grew up with the narrative of Savage/Steamboat stealing Wrestlemanaia III got in the business and thought that was all you needed to become a star. Have 25 false finishes in a match and your set.

Jun 24, 2021 15:21:14 GMT UT said:

When did it become more about that matches and less about the build and personalities? I love old-school wrestling, the over-the-top angled, and promos and when talking them into the arena was more important than what happened between the ropes.

Like Hogan/Piper WM1 - I don’t know anyone that would expect that to be some amazing match or would consider it now, but it was probably one of the most anticipated matches ever to that point and later you could say the same
about Hogan and Andre. That match is iconic and it’s not going to win any MOTY awards by today’s standards.

Was it Bret and Shawn that changed the formula? At least in the WWF? The Attitude Era where they could be larger than life and put on 30-minute mains if needed? Is that what ultimately killed WCW?

Was it way later with the rise of the indies or the Smackdown 6? I’m just curious.

I do miss the old days where the most important thing about a card was who was on it and why they were fighting as opposed to if they could wrestle a five-star classic.

Not that there isn’t room for both either. Just mainly thinking out loud.

The attitude era was part of shifting the tide towards a more work rate-based presentation. Remember, that era was about promos more than matches. During that time, the backstage interactions were more prevalent & match times were short. Fans loved things that way. As fans today enjoy longer matches. I prefer a balance of both. I don't care for the emphasis on work rate as the entire reason for enjoying a match or storyline.

Jun 24, 2021 16:18:03 GMT Big Pete said:

Jun 24, 2021 15:21:14 GMT UT said:

When did it become more about that matches and less about the build and personalities? I love old school wrestling the over the top angled and promos and when talking them into the arena was more important than what happened between the ropes.

Like Hogan/Piper WM1 - I don’t know anyone that would expect that to be some amazing match or would consider it now , but it was probably one of the most anticipated matches ever to that point and later you could say the same
about Hogan and Andre. That match is iconic and it’s not going to win any MOTY awards by today’s standards.

Was it Bret and Shawn that changed the formula? At least in the WWF? The Attitude Era where they could be larger than life and put on 30 minute mains if needed? Is that was ultimately killed WCW?

Was it way later with the rise of the indies or the Smackdown 6? I’m just curious.

I do miss the old days where the most important thing about a card was who was on it and why they were fighting as opposed to if they could wrestle a five star classic.

Not that there isn’t room for both either. Just mainly thinking out loud.

Personally I think it happened in 2009 when they started doing gimmick PPVs and even had the special general managers. I don't think it was really about match quality with the WWE as much as it became about the brand being bigger than any star. When anything really happens anymore it's the WWE doing something wild and wacky.

I'd say it started it earnest around 1999 when Russo left and they lost their auteur. That's when they started hiring writers and they toned down the product and the whole thing became micro-managed.

I guess you could say it would inevitably turned this way after Vince Jr bought the company in 1982. Pro Wrestling was always sold on the idea that these wrestlers were trying to get themselves over which is why W/L mattered, that was their business. When wrestling exploded that became less of an issue and everyone just wanted to go to the WWF. Then when guaranteed contracts came into the mix around 1996 it just changed things further.

So which one is it? Also which do you prefer?

Jun 24, 2021 18:44:25 GMT Ed said:

Jun 24, 2021 15:21:14 GMT UT said:

When did it become more about that matches and less about the build and personalities? I love old-school wrestling, the over-the-top angled, and promos and when talking them into the arena was more important than what happened between the ropes.

Like Hogan/Piper WM1 - I don’t know anyone that would expect that to be some amazing match or would consider it now, but it was probably one of the most anticipated matches ever to that point and later you could say the same
about Hogan and Andre. That match is iconic and it’s not going to win any MOTY awards by today’s standards.

Was it Bret and Shawn that changed the formula? At least in the WWF? The Attitude Era where they could be larger than life and put on 30-minute mains if needed? Is that what ultimately killed WCW?

Was it way later with the rise of the indies or the Smackdown 6? I’m just curious.

I do miss the old days where the most important thing about a card was who was on it and why they were fighting as opposed to if they could wrestle a five-star classic.

Not that there isn’t room for both either. Just mainly thinking out loud.

The attitude era was part of shifting the tide towards a more work rate-based presentation. Remember, that era was about promos more than matches. During that time, the backstage interactions were more prevalent & match times were short. Fans loved things that way. As fans today enjoy longer matches. I prefer a balance of both. I don't care for the emphasis on work rate as the entire reason for enjoying a match or storyline.

I would say it was more about promos as the build and the matches mattered more to fit that story than to always be great matches. They were in there , especially when WCW guys started shifting over and getting in the main event.

I think I prefer it that way too. The more and more I think about my current disconnect with wrestling I think most of it is due to far too much emphasis being put on having good matches and less on the important stuff.

Jun 24, 2021 19:27:55 GMT UT said:

Jun 24, 2021 16:18:03 GMT Big Pete said:

Personally I think it happened in 2009 when they started doing gimmick PPVs and even had the special general managers. I don't think it was really about match quality with the WWE as much as it became about the brand being bigger than any star. When anything really happens anymore it's the WWE doing something wild and wacky.

I'd say it started it earnest around 1999 when Russo left and they lost their auteur. That's when they started hiring writers and they toned down the product and the whole thing became micro-managed.

I guess you could say it would inevitably turned this way after Vince Jr bought the company in 1982. Pro Wrestling was always sold on the idea that these wrestlers were trying to get themselves over which is why W/L mattered, that was their business. When wrestling exploded that became less of an issue and everyone just wanted to go to the WWF. Then when guaranteed contracts came into the mix around 1996 it just changed things further.

So which one is it? Also which do you prefer?

2009, my mind just wandered because it was an inevitibility once Vince started having serious success in 1987 and telling guys who they were going to be.

I've always preferred the traditional model of your main event guys were your larger than life personalities and your mid-card guys were your athletes. Give me a Bruno everyday over a Backlund and give me 90s Backlund over 80s Backlund.

It's interesting that way. I used to joke to myself about the lack of wrestling for a time and thought it's only a matter of time till they just get rid of the ring. And then they shifted to more focus on matches and my interest just died. So what did I even want?

Jun 24, 2021 19:30:53 GMT UT said:

Jun 24, 2021 18:44:25 GMT Ed said:

The attitude era was part of shifting the tide towards a more work rate-based presentation. Remember, that era was about promos more than matches. During that time, the backstage interactions were more prevalent & match times were short. Fans loved things that way. As fans today enjoy longer matches. I prefer a balance of both. I don't care for the emphasis on work rate as the entire reason for enjoying a match or storyline.

I would say it was more about promos as the build and the matches mattered more to fit that story than to always be great matches. They were in there, especially when WCW guys started shifting over and getting in the main event.

I think I prefer it that way too. The more and more I think about my current disconnect with wrestling I think most of it is due to far too much emphasis being put on having good matches and less on the important stuff.

I feel the same way. That's why I supported the indies I have. I've been so invested in stories, not that I don't care about watching good matches but when I do, it's like oh shit, I wasn't expecting that. Not that I don't want to watch good matches but it's not my main focus. Plus, a lot of Dave Meltzer's idea of work rate is very narrow. New Japan has a great combination of WWE presentation and work rate.

Jun 24, 2021 19:39:38 GMT Big Pete said:

Jun 24, 2021 19:27:55 GMT UT said:

So which one is it? Also which do you prefer?

2009, my mind just wandered because it was an inevitibility once Vince started having serious success in 1987 and telling guys who they were going to be.

I've always preferred the traditional model of your main event guys were your larger than life personalities and your mid-card guys were your athletes. Give me a Bruno everyday over a Backlund and give me 90s Backlund over 80s Backlund.

Yeah that's how I like it too. I know there are people who feel the other way and I would be curious to see as to why? Not that I don't love a good match but 
for me the athletic display I can get anywhere. 

Like even making the correlation to a movie. You could have two world class actors on screen putting in the performances of a lifetime but if the plot and dialogue up to that point weren't taken care of than why should the audience even care? 

The bottom line is that the wrestling match is the one thing that separates pro-wrestling from everything else. Without the matches you're just watching a low quality soap opera or TV drama with generally substandard writing and acting.

For me the in-ring action is first and foremost but it's a 1a to 1b relationship. Wrestling is essential to pro-wrestling, but stories are also essential. Difference is that you can sometimes watch matches out of context, and if the wrestlers are good enough are telling a story in the ring, it can be immensely entertaining and a complete saga.

Meanwhile if you watch a promo out of context then you could be entertained but it's more like watching a trailer. It's the appetiser. The match is the main course.

I know I'm sidestepping the main point of the thread, but I'm not really sure what the turning point was. My beloved Japanese wrestling has always been at least 90% ring action 10% promos so it's never been a concern for me. If anything NJPW have made a decent shift towards a more promo/story based product in the past few years.

I blame PW.

The change was a slow burn thing taking place over a long period of time with many individual moments you can pinpoint as catalysts. I'm not sure when it became the dominant style in WWE, but I think it was after I stopped watching full time. So 2009 at the earliest, but it had been slowly heading in that direction for years.

Just want to say I agree with all this...

Jun 24, 2021 15:21:14 GMT UT said:

I love old school wrestling the over the top angled and promos and when talking them into the arena was more important than what happened between the ropes.

Like Hogan/Piper WM1 -  it was probably one of the most anticipated matches ever to that point and later you could say the same
about Hogan and Andre. That match is iconic and it’s not going to win any MOTY awards by today’s standards.

I do miss the old days where the most important thing about a card was who was on it and why they were fighting as opposed to if they could wrestle a five star classic.

Not that there isn’t room for both either. Just mainly thinking out loud.

That's not to say you don't need matches. Wrestling without wrestling matches would obviously be foolish. Ideally tv matches further the stories they're telling while PPV provides the big payoffs. But a match with a story behind it is typically going to draw more interest than a match without one.

It's interesting how the two biggest boom periods of my lifetime were the entertainment oriented Golden Age & Attitude Era. The former was bemoaned by many hardcore fans for "bad wrestling" while the latter was criticized by those same purists for "not enough wrestling." Both eras were character driven with a whole lot of talking and very few tv matches going over 10 minutes.

You don't even have to go back that far. The handful of things to get really over during the past decade after WWE embraced the workrate/indie style were character/story driven- Punk, Bryan, Becky, Kofi. With Punk's rise in particular also being predicated on talking. 

Jun 24, 2021 21:28:10 GMT Emperor said:

The bottom line is that the wrestling match is the one thing that separates pro-wrestling from everything else. Without the matches, you're just watching a low-quality soap opera or TV drama with generally substandard writing and acting.

For me, the in-ring action is first and foremost but, it's a 1a to 1b relationship. Wrestling is essential to pro-wrestling, but stories are also essential. The difference is that you can sometimes watch matches out of context, and if the wrestlers are good enough are telling a story in the ring, it can be immensely entertaining and a complete saga.

Meanwhile, if you watch a promo out of context then you could be entertained but, it's more like watching a trailer. It's the appetizer. The match is the main course.

I know I'm sidestepping the main point of the thread, but I'm not really sure what the turning point was. My beloved Japanese wrestling has always been at least 90% ring action 10% promos so it's never been a concern for me. If anything, NJPW has made a decent shift towards a more promo story-based product in the past few years.

It all depends on how a storyline is presented. Not every angle has heat. Depending on the trajectory of an angle, matches can lead into a story or continue it.

I know we all love and respect Triple H now, but his reign of terror really pushed me away from wrestling. I feel like wrestling in general sucked then. The shit we wrote in Fan Fic was way better. BY A LONG SHOT.

Jun 26, 2021 0:12:00 GMT KING KID said:

I know we all love and respect Triple H now, but his reign of terror really pushed me away from wrestling. I feel like wrestling in general sucked then. The shit we wrote in Fan Fic was way better. BY A LONG SHOT.

I get that but at least there was something there in terms of characters and stories with someone to really root against.

I’d take that over what we’ve regressed to now where it’s okay to fill a three hour show with the same good matches over and over again between the same guys.

Jun 26, 2021 1:50:39 GMT UT said:

Jun 26, 2021 0:12:00 GMT KING KID said:

I know we all love and respect Triple H now, but his reign of terror really pushed me away from wrestling. I feel like wrestling in general sucked then. The shit we wrote in Fan Fic was way better. BY A LONG SHOT.

I get that but at least there was something there in terms of characters and stories with someone to really root against.

I’d take that over what we’ve regressed to now where it’s okay to fill a three hour show with the same good matches over and over again between the same guys.

I absolutely agree. Great matches or what we called GREAT MATCHES back in the day aren't even great anymore. It's the same shit. It's boring and bland.

I'll take Attitude Era promos and Attitude Era wrestling every day over this technical wrestling BS.

Jun 26, 2021 1:55:14 GMT KING KID said:

Jun 26, 2021 1:50:39 GMT UT said:

I get that but at least there was something there in terms of characters and stories with someone to really root against.

I’d take that over what we’ve regressed to now where it’s okay to fill a three hour show with the same good matches over and over again between the same guys.

I absolutely agree. Great matches or what we called GREAT MATCHES back in the day aren't even great anymore. It's the same shit. It's boring and bland.

I'll take Attitude Era promos and Attitude Era wrestling every day over this technical wrestling BS.

For real.

In fact I’d be curious to see like what the reaction to a Steambot/Savage would be today. It’s a great match but it stood out because it’s not something you were seeing all the time , especially in the WWF. It was unique.

Now you see similar types of matches almost on a weekly basis and it takes the shine away from truly special matches.

Jun 26, 2021 2:02:48 GMT UT said:

Jun 26, 2021 1:55:14 GMT KING KID said:

I absolutely agree. Great matches or what we called GREAT MATCHES back in the day aren't even great anymore. It's the same shit. It's boring and bland.

I'll take Attitude Era promos and Attitude Era wrestling every day over this technical wrestling BS.

For real.

In fact I’d be curious to see like what the reaction to a Steambot/Savage would be today. It’s a great match but it stood out because it’s not something you were seeing all the time , especially in the WWF. It was unique.

Now you see similar types of matches almost on a weekly basis and it takes the shine away from truly special matches.

But who’s to blame really? The people. The fans. The internet asked for this. They wanted great wrestling and great wrestlers. Maybe Vince had the right idea all along but got forced into giving us this form of wrestling and it just stopped being good.

That’s why he ran the most successful wrestling company in the world for so long and the fans didn’t.  

I’m sure Meltzer deserves some of the blame too. The rise of the indies too where they had to do something to stand out.

I think it's the accumulation of a lot of things (and some things I'm forgetting too, most likely):

1. Calgary Influence: What I first viewed as something different, and what Baker refers to as New Style, had its ground zero moment in Calgary the late 70s/early 80s, and because of Vince McMahon's pillaging of that territory in 1984/1985, this is where WWF first begins flirting with The Wrestling Change. I suppose you can go back a little earlier with Tiger Mask's brief WWF run, but this is also part of the Calgary lineage, the proto-Junior style that would eventually become a huge part of the standard that would be considered "good workrate," but this was confined low in the WWF card and tag division for the entire decade so was only a preview of the change, and not the actual change.

2. New Japan Juniors: Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid really is the first modern workrate feud, just two dudes doing cool movez to an audience having their minds blown. The division this would spawn in New Japan, and its influence on every smaller wrestler from that point forward can not be overstated. It was the blueprint: Too small to being taken seriously? If you do goddamn motherfucking sick movez you will outshine the "serious" wrestlers that come after you, which for better (is a cool early match, can also possibly make the people that come after you up their game) or worse (set a standard that the moneymakers can not keep up with, which makes them look bad and can kill their business and thus the entire business in the long run), this caused an eventual monumental shift where curtain jerkers had the sole ambition to steal the whole fucking show, while also becoming the training grounds for North American wrestlers to eventually bring this back into the states by the early '90s.

3. Calgary Influence #2/SuperBrawl 2/SummerSlam '91: As the Calgary Influence in the WWF was diminishing minus Bret Hart with a fledgling singles career, there was a Calgary Influence in WCW in Flyin' Brian Pillman. He was a proto-workrate guy with a classic babyface persona that was kinda the first Total Package in combining workrate with personality, and he very quickly became while not the face of WCW, certainly a face, a huge part of their merchandise, and occasionally elevated to main event status when needed. The Light Heavyweight Title was created, basically as the Flyin' Brian belt. The optimistic view, make him an ace of a lower division the way that Jushin Liger was being used in New Japan. The cynical view, a glass ceiling to keep him down. But he was the first serious non-Heavyweight Champion in America since Tiger Mask's run in the WWWF in the early '80s, and Pillman's match against Liger at SuperBrawl 2 was the Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite Kid of America. Unfortunately, for Pillman, this was too ahead of its time, there were no dance partners for him to continue New Style showcases, the title would become irrelevant and WCW wouldn't be ready to find similar talent for another 4 years after Pillman had already slowed down and was transitioning to old style.

Meanwhile, SummerSlam '91 would see Bret's singles career get its first moment winning his first title against Mr. Perfect in a CLASSIC of its time. New Style was finally a single's star in the WWF, and he would be moving up relatively soon after.

4. Bret Hart, the Main Eventer: Bret vs. Davey Boy as SummerSlam '92 is kind of insane, when you really think about it. This was a Calgary New Style match, while an anomaly, main eventing the WWF, the land of giants, second biggest show of the year, selling out Wembley Stadium, the fact that this was booked at all is crazy. Then they actually delivered and you have the first workrate main event in WWF history, and it was an enormous success. This sets the stage for Bret to be promoted to World Champion very soon after and you have the first New Style Main Eventer and the first New Style World Champion, and it's in the biggest company in America. This is a bit of a Pillman situation, there aren't dance partners for Bret to do New Style matches, but he's still new style as champion in the sense that he's workrate first, personality second. Equally as big a shift is his fighting champion persona which makes him the first modern WWF champ regularly defending the title on free TV, as would become the standard. The model before that was saving title defenses for PPV's and occasional Saturday Night Main Events. Bret would be defending the title on Superstars regularly and eventually on a new show called Raw. This is also paving the way for a similar figure on the roster, a former tag team guy with cool movez ascending the singles ranks in Shawn Michaels.

5. Wrestlemania X: Bret vs. Owen and Shawn vs. Razor is monumental in what would become the near future of WWF. Bret vs. Owen is a straight up New Style match, and it's one of the greatest matches ever. This makes Owen, which adds New Style depth, and whether it was conscious or not, really makes people realize what wrestling at its highest level is really about. Shawn vs. Razor is Shawn's coming out party (lol), he's clearly going to be a main eventer in the future at the end of that night, AND it puts a workrate gimmick match on the map that for better or for worse would become a staple of movez and moments over old style storytelling. These two matches happening on the same card is mind blowing.

6. The Malenko-Guerrero Classic/Extreme Luchadors: While there are a few New Style figures in the big two, there are very few New Style matches. There just aren't enough of them in the same place or same stature on the card, at the same time. ECW, still in its something alternative for everybody phase, figures out this New Style is flourishing in Japan and no one is taking advantage of it in the States. Chris Benoit and 2 Cold Scorpio are huge parts of ECW for this reason and they are showcasing New Style every three weeks at the ECW Arena. But the Malenko vs. Guerrero series is something different, basically a mission statement of New Style. This is the perfect alchemy of Tiger Mask vs. Dynamite and Pillman vs. Liger (and of course Lucha Libre and many Junior matches in Japan), but in front of a crowd that is ready to see it, and a time that is ready to celebrate it. It's like we, as a wrestling audience, had been teased for the past four years with little bursts of New Style, then here came this series that like THIS IS IT, THIS IS WHAT IT IS AND COULD CONTINUE TO BE. Throw in a smart audience and this is now a standard. Happening just as the Monday Night Wars is beginning, also an audition to take it to a bigger audience.

After Malenko/Guerrero depart ECW for WCW (more on that next), Paul E. and ECW has to try and one-up this. Paul E. books Rey Mysterio Jr. in his debut against Psicosis and it makes Eddie's New Style immediately seem old in comparison, Rey is ahead of New Style, and his debut in the States is one of the most mind blowing experiences in wrestling history. 

7. WCW Cruiserweight Division: Bischoff sees what ECW did with Malenko, Guerrero, Benoit and Rey and smartly sees the need to book workrate guys against each other as an added element to the stars of Old Style main eventing. This is something for everybody booking and Bischoff's booking of these New Style guys in the first hour of Nitro, soon to be at the height of Nitro, is the biggest push of New Style wrestling yet. It's essentially duplicating the Malenko-Guerrero Classic and Rey Mysterio debut, except its Guerrero vs. Benoit in the US Title Division, and it's Rey Mysterio debuting against Malenko in a match more mind blowing than the ECW. Like Pillman before them, there is a glass ceiling here, but this style gets normalized and inadvertently making this the new standard of wrestling during a time where wrestling has its biggest television audience to this very day. 

8. Wrestlemania 12 Iron Man Match: Bret and Shawn are weird in that they represent New Style more than they were, in a lot of ways. This is partly because they were older than the true New Style guys, so they had an inherent Old Style within them, they had to live in that world, thrive in that world. But them main eventing Wrestlemania 12 in a gimmick match that exists to showcase workrate (long matches are often considered workrate simply just being long) is a huge (temporary) shift. It's the two kings of WWF New Style pitted against each other to be The Ace. I see this more as an anomaly as the WWF would very soon be back to its old ways after the Shawn championship is a complete disaster, but it sets the stage for a near future where this would become the norm.

9. Hell in the Cell '98: If there was one thing the Old Style guys learned very quickly from the New Style guys it was the Power of the High Spot. The WWF main eventers had gradually been upping the ante of the high spot of the big match since Diesel sent Bret Hart through a table at Survivor Series '95. By 1998 it was already a gag that someone would go through the Spanish Announce Table on a big show and Undertaker vs. Mankind maximized this gag to its maximum point. I think this is a great match, but it's also the clearest spotfest match that's ever taken place and is thus worth mentioning as part of The Change. This gave birth to the construction of TLC matches and while stunt wrestling (which I don't say pejoratively) is a little difference than workrate wrestling, it's adjacent in terms of being the performative big moment with little regard to how it fits in the match. So, it's more similar to spamming cool movez than it is dissimilar. The Attitude Era (and WCW unsuccessfully trying to keep up with it), while it was in many ways the opposite of workrate wrestling, this aspect made it that of course the next thing would simply be "better" wrestlers doing more impressive movez as a showcase to themselves and not the match.

10. Kurt Angle: WWF constructs a home grown New Style guy to take them to the next century.

11. The Radicalz: WWF as the clear runaway winner of the Monday Night Wars adds almost all the remaining original New Style guys to their versions of that to eventually elevate the workrate of their already wildly successful show. This is a bit of a flop at first, which many people forget, but it's important that it gets the wheels turning for the transition to The Change.

12. Stone Cold Steve Austin's 2001 Heel Run: I mention this for two reasons, he crosses paths with two important New Style figures during this period: Chris Benoit and Kurt Angle. Austin, very recently the biggest thing ever, now in chickenshit heel mode, constructs the matches as being less than them. This is a legitimization bigger than anything could possibly. Also, there are three things worth mentioning: The match vs. Rock match at WM17 is a finisher fest, a staple of The Change. The Angle match at SummerSlam is a nearfall fest, another staple of The Change. The Benoit match on Smackdown has Benoit spam 10 consecutive German suplexes on Austin, yet another staple of The Change.

13. Ring of Honor debuts: ROH was smart that in the vacuum of wrestling after WCW/ECW folded, while every indie and startup was chasing the extreme elements to be the new ECW, or simply try to appeal to Attitude Era fans, they decided to do the opposite with their version of clean, technical, wrestling. Immediately, made them stand out as an alternative to everyone, but also they saw the part of ECW that was always underrated, which was appealing to the smart fan's tastes, and in ROH's cases, practically pander to it. And the smart fan's tastes was New Style workrate guys as everything that is right about wrestling. The mainstream of everything always copies what is happening in the underground. Attitude Era got violent because ECW, the coolest alternative, overachieved being Extreme. Now Ruthless Aggression was going to get more technical because ROH, the coolest alternative, overachieved being the most technical. And it had created an accidental farm system that WWE has been trying to duplicate with NXT ever since.

14. WM20: Benoit and Eddie ending Wrestlemania as the two champions, the two "vanilla midget," faces of New Style, now the Aces of the two brands of the only big wrestling company in America is the foundation of The Change. We've seen all these flashes, but this is a defined moment of Change. This is an appeal to the smart fan's tastes, with a meta storyline of at least partially being, "These two guys are not typical WWE champions, but that's the fucking point because this is a new WWE. But not for long.

15. Summer of Punk/Summer of YES: Typical Vince fashion, he can't fully commit to New Style. Despite the ending of WM20, Vince is still in love with Vince guys and he chooses mostly Old Style guys like Cena/Orton/Batista/Triple H for the next decade plus. The audience rebels. TV audience, live gate and PPVs dwindle every year with the only exception being 2007/2008. Out of this emerges The Summer of Punk, the perfect rebellion for a product that has been mostly not good, with a figure who has tried to build himself as rebellion itself, with the perfect pedigree of indie legend (seemingly) underpushed in the WWE. The audience has had Old Style Cena shoved down their throats for a near decade, New Style Punk is what they want. New Style Punk is The Change the audience wants. They don't really get it. They do, but it's clearly intentionally undercut to protect the Old Style paradigm.

Two summers later, Daniel Bryan emerges, and it's kind of the same thing. It's an audience that wants The Change. Once again, they don't really get it. The WWE can not undermine the Old Style, fully. Not yet. 

16. Royal Rumble 2014: The Rebellion: This is really Vince at his most Vince, absolutely does not give a fuck about what his audience has wanted the past six months (or 13 years, but who's counting?) just feeding them shit and expecting them to take it. The reaction this show elicited must have made even Vince take a step back. By now, the audience still dwindling, it's becoming clear that Old Style is dead, New Style needs to get the keys.

17. Wrestlemania 30/31: There are many starts and stops to fully committing to New Style (Vince is gonna make you love Old Style Roman Reigns, dammit), but Wrestlemania 30 sees them genuinely try to give the keys to Daniel Bryan and Wrestlemania 31 give the keys to Seth Rollins instead. Despite Reigns (and Triple H refusing to go away), New Style is now the predominant main event style, and through NXT, nearly all of the wrestlers in the pipeline are also New Style. Unlike the early days of New Style where it was the anomaly among many more Old Style matches, these Old Style figures are now the anomalies among New Style wrestlers pandering to a New Style audience. 

WWE is in a tough spot, their own doing, so I feel no pity, but a tough spot, nonetheless. There is no turning back from New Style right now. When you alienate your audience for nearly two decades, the only people that will remain are the hardcore of the hardcore, and they're always going to prefer "workrate." They're always going to resent Old Style figures that emerge (eventually). But even if they could go back, what is their to go back to? The WWE's concept of Old Style is what alienated the audience in the first place. It resulted in close to 15 years of a dwindling audience. And before the Attitude Era, we're talking another 10 years of a dwindling audience between that and peak Hulkamania before it. WWF/E didn't do that particularly well, either.

Post of the year, if not the decade.

This is why Kilgore is the ultimate PW historian.

So at the end of the day you're telling me that Bruce Hart had a huge hand in forming modern wrestling? For, it was Bruce who discovered the Dynamite Kid and convinced Stu that he had to bring him into save the Calgary territory. Stu took one look at him and was like WTF? Then he saw him wrestle and changed his tune.

A lot of that is spot on. What I will say is that Wrestlemania 30 wasn't a genuine passing of the torch. Whoever won the championship was always going to get fed to Brock Lesnar at SummerSlam setting up the Reigns/Brock feud which had been in the books since 2012.

That's why NXT has failed as a developmental. Because Hunter hires these hot independant talents, Vince calls them up and throws them straight into the mid-card.

As far as fan perception goes, you have to look into guys like Scott Keith and the number of shoot interviews that have been done. Fans could tell you Bret/Perfect SummerSlam 1991 was a great match but they couldn't really tell you why without some sentimental reason. When guys like Foley and co. started lifting the lid the discussions started to change. Then companies started releasing DVD compilations made up of great matches and you could see a pattern behind what made a great Rey Mysterio, Ric Flair or Shawn Michaels match. Flair/Steamboat was already a popular answer among wrestlers, I remember Stone Cold in WOW Magazine during the hottest run of his career basically gushed over Steamboat which was so strange to me as a 9 year old. Now fans had a chance to see that match and I'd dare say that was more influential than Savage/Steamboat which wasn't viewed in the same light. When Wrestlemania III came up, it was about the record crowd and Hogan body-slamming Andre.

As time has gone on, former wrestlers have gone into podcasts where they'll give director commentaries on their matches and will even critique other wrestlers. It's made fans more savvy in a sense but it's also made them very narrow minded because they think wrestlers should live and die by old school psychology. When really you do whatever is going to be best for business and is going to raise your stock. If that means fishing for GIFs, so be it.

So at the end of the day , perhaps just the internet and the "IWC" is the main culprit. We fucking ruin everything.

In all seriousness I do think the IWC is one of the worst things to happen to wrestling. For a number of reasons.

Feels like a catch 22 situation here. Did the fanbase disappear due to the focus on ringwork or did they shift to ringwork to appeal to the loyal but shrinking remaining fanbase?

I see the shift being a result of terrible booking than anything else. Fans get less emotionally invested because the major companies treated W/L like they were pointless. To that end, maybe the whole Fingerpoke of Doom can be blamed since they destroyed something the fans cared about and then treated it like an entire joke and never really came to any clear resolution? Then when Russo got the book and turned everything into a shoot and people started calling Hulk Hogan Terry that was that.

The booking got so bad that fans started fixating more on the matches, especially after wrestlers became more open about their craft in an attempt to get accepted by mainstream society.

Emperor brought up NJPW, but I'd argue a key reason why it has such a devoted fanbase is because wins and losses matter. While fans are entertained by the matches, they're also interested in watching rivalries develop over a course of years. Look at the evolution of Kenny Omega or the rivalry of Okada/Tanahashi or Okada/Naito. Fans cared because wrestlers would employ these little touches that gave the matches more weight. I was blown away when a Twitter thread pointed out how Naito went from being completely over-awed, to mildly hesitant to supremely confident in his entrances over the course of three WrestleKingdom bouts with Okada. This wasn't headcannon stuff either, they clearly focused in on Naito's expression each time to stress that point.

On the opposite end, PWG was just the best independant talent showing off and having ***** matches for the sake of it. It was fine but also incredibly niche. Funnily it took Meltzer ages to notice and when he finally picked up on it he overrated the hell out of it.

Jun 26, 2021 14:49:27 GMT Big Pete said:

I see the shift being a result of terrible booking than anything else. Fans get less emotionally invested because the major companies treated W/L like they were pointless. To that end, maybe the whole Fingerpoke of Doom can be blamed since they destroyed something the fans cared about and then treated it like an entire joke and never really came to any clear resolution? Then when Russo got the book and turned everything into a shoot and people started calling Hulk Hogan Terry that was that.

The booking got so bad that fans started fixating more on the matches, especially after wrestlers became more open about their craft in an attempt to get accepted by mainstream society.

Fair but people at least still cared about the titles and certain accolades or victories. Now none of that really matters because everyone has someone different in mind for who should be champion.

I know people disagree , especially those who don’t love Brock but his title reign where he only showed up for bigger occasions and defenses was the best the WWE has booked the title in forever. It made the title feel special for a brief moment.

Now that treatment of the titles probably falls more on the AE than anything and the perceived need to spike ratings each week but I don’t think it works now.

It also just boils down to exposure too of the whole product. Guys could wrestle 25 times a month back in the day and it would still work on TV or PPV because it wasn’t on TV and no one was seeing it. They almost run the same formula now only it’s on every Raw and PPV and special and even the net if you want to look for it.

Jun 26, 2021 14:59:22 GMT UT said:

Jun 26, 2021 14:49:27 GMT Big Pete said:

I see the shift being a result of terrible booking than anything else. Fans get less emotionally invested because the major companies treated W/L like they were pointless. To that end, maybe the whole Fingerpoke of Doom can be blamed since they destroyed something the fans cared about and then treated it like an entire joke and never really came to any clear resolution? Then when Russo got the book and turned everything into a shoot and people started calling Hulk Hogan Terry that was that.

The booking got so bad that fans started fixating more on the matches, especially after wrestlers became more open about their craft in an attempt to get accepted by mainstream society.

Fair but people at least still cared about the titles and certain accolades or victories. Now none of that really matters because everyone has someone different in mind for who should be champion.

I know people disagree , especially those who don’t love Brock but his title reign where he only showed up for bigger occasions and defenses was the best the WWE has booked the title in forever. It made the title feel special for a brief moment.

Now that treatment of the titles probably falls more on the AE than anything and the perceived need to spike ratings each week but I don’t think it works now.

It also just boils down to exposure too of the whole product. Guys could wrestle 25 times a month back in the day and it would still work on TV or PPV because it wasn’t on TV and no one was seeing it. They almost run the same formula now only it’s on every Raw and PPV and special and even the net if you want to look for it.

It was a case of diminishing returns. While fans may have cared about Austin beating Rock at Wrestlemania X-Seve when Jericho became the Undisputed Champion and later on JBL won the WWE Championship fans were beginning to lose interest. As those wrestlers began to age out, a new generation was introduced that were victamised by really poor booking.

In other words it's a downward trend that's culminated into this current era.

I also wonder how bad the brand split was for wrestling. I was never a big Smackdown watcher. Hard to when they keep switching the day it’s on. I would watch it when it originally aired on Thursdays but then it would bounce around and Friday wrestling is a no no for me. It’s hard to keep fans interested when the wrestlers are split on to too many shows. Also; maybe we had too many wrestlers on one company to follow. Maybe all these cuts are good for the company? Doubt it’s for the betterment. A buy out is coming.

I was thinking the same about there being less guys and potentially more work put into characters. I doubt it but one can hope!