Ed and I have been having this debate in another thread. I think Road Dogg is the clear Jannetty of the duo due to Billy having a stronger overall career. Ed went with Billy as the Marty because Road Dogg was the more over of the two when they were teaming. Kilgore leaned in that direction as well, but doesn't really care one way or the other because he thinks the NAO sucked.

What say you, PW?

It’s Billy Gunn. Easily.

The NAO were incredibly over , I would gather most of that was due to Road Dogg. Just watch their individual pops - even at the… Rumbles.

Billy was the body guy and decent worker so he got the multiple (failed) push attempts. Road Dogg just wasn’t the type despite being a much better bet to actually sustain fan interest.

For one to be the Jannetty, one would have to be the HBK… and neither was that. They both were left flat without the other.

Gunn was the lesser of the two though for sure. No charisma, no discernible unique quality to him. He was just a good body guy.

Road Dogg was easily the better of the two when they were a team, but the whole point of the Jannetty is who did better outside of the group.

Gunn won a King of the Ring, had a match with The Rock at SummerSlam and won the Intercontinental Championship. He stayed with the company until 2004, whereas Road Dogg was let go in 2001 and I've heard next to nothing about his BG James run in NWA-TNA. Was it better than being paired with Torrie Wilson?

Have been lobbying to change "The Jannetty of" to "The Anvil of" as Jim Neidhart was even more unsuccessful out of his tag team and also has a nickname that is literally dead weight and spawned the idiom "like an anvil sinking to the bottom of the ocean," maybe the perfect metaphor for the unsuccessful half of a partnership.

Gunn was more successful outside the tag team, but these were manufactured successes. He won the King of the Ring, okay, so Vince picked a dude with a good body that absolutely sucked, and everybody hated it, what a surprise. Then that parlayed into a brief main event push that is only remembered because The Rock owned him on the mic as hard as anyone as ever been owned on mic, and it was mostly because everyone knew how ridiculous Gunn being in that spot was that it was mass-catharsis to hear The Rock publicly acknowledge this disaster.

But I guess that makes Road Dogg technically your Jannetty, my Anvil.

But as mikec said, "For one to be the Jannetty, one would have to be the HBK," and that is not expecting one to have become that successful, but merely one of them to have not flopped without the other, which didn't happen. Whatever success Gunn had that was marginally greater than Road Dogg outside of the Outlaws is still less than they were as a team. To be the HBK, or the Bret, you need to exceed the tag team success, which Gunn did not do. So, he flopped too, and flopped more spectacularly, as they actually tried to push him.

That's what makes this a more complicated debate. Do you do things strictly by the numbers and pick the Anvil out of who had less kayfabe success after the team (Road Dogg)? Or do their flops cancel each other out, so you go back to them at their most successful as a team and decide who was the Anvil there (Billy Gunn)?

That's for you to decide. I'm personally voting they're equal, as in they equally suck, and I hate them both. 

Road Dogg may be the Coldplay of the Outlaws.

The last three posts before this one were perfection. Absolute perfection.

Jun 27, 2021 6:01:02 GMT Big Pete said:

Road Dogg was easily the better of the two when they were a team, but the whole point of the Jannetty is who did better outside of the group.

Gunn won a King of the Ring, had a match with The Rock at SummerSlam and won the Intercontinental Championship. He stayed with the company until 2004, whereas Road Dogg was let go in 2001 and I've heard next to nothing about his BG James run in NWA-TNA. Was it better than being paired with Torrie Wilson?

Gunn’s IC title reign came after Dogg’s and was five days longer with both reigns under 20 days. His singles career post NAO is most notable for having Stone Cold refuse to work with him and Rock be pissed he had to.

Jun 27, 2021 13:50:26 GMT mikec said:

Jun 27, 2021 6:01:02 GMT Big Pete said:

Road Dogg was easily the better of the two when they were a team, but the whole point of the Jannetty is who did better outside of the group.

Gunn won a King of the Ring, had a match with The Rock at SummerSlam and won the Intercontinental Championship. He stayed with the company until 2004, whereas Road Dogg was let go in 2001 and I've heard next to nothing about his BG James run in NWA-TNA. Was it better than being paired with Torrie Wilson?

Gunn’s IC title reign came after Dogg’s and was five days longer with both reigns under 20 days. His singles career post NAO is most notable for having Stone Cold refuse to work with him and Rock be pissed he had to.

Gunn's came when the title had been rehabbed and had guys like Jericho, Angle and Benoit all work with it whereas the title was treated as a prop around the time Road Dogg won it and switched hands between career mid-carders. In fact, the whole storyline is that Gunn and Dogg switched places just as a wacky Russo goof and it was never this long lasting thing.

Austin did work with him and publicly put him over at the time. The Rock was pissed, but they had heat because Gunn and Road Dogg trashed him in an interview for locker room shenanigans.

Kilgore, won the thread. That Anvil thing was deep.

Jun 27, 2021 14:18:51 GMT KING KID said:

Kilgore, won the thread. That Anvil thing was deep.

Kilgore wins every thread he posts in.

Jun 27, 2021 14:20:09 GMT 🤯 said:

Jun 27, 2021 14:18:51 GMT KING KID said:

Kilgore , won the thread. That Anvil thing was deep.

Kilgore wins every thread he posts in.

He has yet to be involved in a poll with RT though. 

Jun 27, 2021 14:09:35 GMT Big Pete said:

Jun 27, 2021 13:50:26 GMT mikec said:

Gunn’s IC title reign came after Dogg’s and was five days longer with both reigns under 20 days. His singles career post NAO is most notable for having Stone Cold refuse to work with him and Rock be pissed he had to.

Gunn's came when the title had been rehabbed and had guys like Jericho, Angle and Benoit all work with it whereas the title was treated as a prop around the time Road Dogg won it and switched hands between career mid-carders. In fact, the whole storyline is that Gunn and Dogg switched places just as a wacky Russo goof and it was never this long lasting thing.

Austin did work with him and publicly put him over at the time. The Rock was pissed, but they had heat because Gunn and Road Dogg trashed him in an interview for locker room shenanigans.

Excellent point.

Also, how are we quantifying success post-NAO if it was part of a tag team?

Billy & Chuck, whether or right or wrong reasons, had some serious main stream attention toward the end of their run from what I recall. They were also tagging against a red hot nostalgia Hogan.

If we don't start counting post-Noa time until after February 2000 when Billy got injured and effectively disbanded the Outlaws, Dogg's IC title run doesn't really count then IMO (and is weakened anyway by the points PW's 2020 Poster of the Year raised). This is offset by similar arguments negating Gunn's KOTR win and Rock burial.

But, if we start counting Dogg's post-NAO successes from February 2000 onward, then he... Teamed and then feuded with X-Pac in a super stale DX deal, and then helped introduce K-Kwik to the WWF?

Just because Dogg was a better hype man than Gunn in NAO, doesn't make him The Anvil or the HBK. That would be like saying Scotty 2 Hotty was the HBK just because he had The Worm or maybe more appropriately Ricardo Rodriguez was the HBK while Alberto Del Rio was the Billy Gunn.

Kilgore has made exceptionally compelling arguments to me to henceforth agree both Outlaws peaked as Outlaws, whether I like or dislike what they did apart from each other, and that Anvil is infinitely more fitting than Jannetty as a label.

I'm glad Baker-man made the poll option "Neither, they're equal" instead of something like "Neither, they sucked equally" as it makes my vote much more clear cut.

While a lot of what they did individually and together was garbage, I still struggle to go out on the same limb as Kilgore in saying they both sucked when I enjoyed some of Gunn's other stuff and even The Roadie run.

Can we at least admit Road Dogg had one of the worst finishers of all time? On the rare occasion he actually used it. Like I don't care if it's his or the weird Test one that was like a powerslam... pump handle is just CRINGE.

Then again was the pump handle his actual finisher or was it that leg shake thing? Like was that his People's Elbow or the Worm Chop?

Also can we segueway into appreciation that Scotty's Worm basically gave him nostalgia pops forever? I'm sure he's STILL doing it on the indies as we speak...

W

O

R

M

It's the woooooooooooooorm~!

And THIS. THIS is what we need. A public poll.

Jun 27, 2021 14:09:35 GMT Big Pete said:

Jun 27, 2021 13:50:26 GMT mikec said:

Gunn’s IC title reign came after Dogg’s and was five days longer with both reigns under 20 days. His singles career post NAO is most notable for having Stone Cold refuse to work with him and Rock be pissed he had to.

Gunn's came when the title had been rehabbed and had guys like Jericho, Angle and Benoit all work with it whereas the title was treated as a prop around the time Road Dogg won it and switched hands between career mid-carders. In fact, the whole storyline is that Gunn and Dogg switched places just as a wacky Russo goof and it was never this long lasting thing.

Austin did work with him and publicly put him over at the time. The Rock was pissed, but they had heat because Gunn and Road Dogg trashed him in an interview for locker room shenanigans.

Sorry but this isn’t true either. The five previous champs prior to Road Dogg were Stone Cold, The Rock, Trips, Shamrock and Venis who held the belt between them 18 months. The five champs prior to Gunn were Benoit, Rikishi, Val Venis, Chyna, and Eddie who held it for six months combined. Road Dogg started that run of making the title a joke, but it wasn’t rehabbed because Kurt Angle touched it…

Jun 27, 2021 14:46:54 GMT mikec said:

Jun 27, 2021 14:09:35 GMT Big Pete said:

Gunn's came when the title had been rehabbed and had guys like Jericho, Angle and Benoit all work with it whereas the title was treated as a prop around the time Road Dogg won it and switched hands between career mid-carders. In fact, the whole storyline is that Gunn and Dogg switched places just as a wacky Russo goof and it was never this long lasting thing.

Austin did work with him and publicly put him over at the time. The Rock was pissed, but they had heat because Gunn and Road Dogg trashed him in an interview for locker room shenanigans.

Sorry but this isn’t true either. The five previous champs prior to Road Dogg were Stone Cold, The Rock, Trips, Shamrock and Venis who held the belt between them 18 months. The five champs prior to Gunn were Benoit, Rikishi, Val Venis, Chyna, and Eddie who held it for six months combined. Road Dogg started that run of making the title a joke, but it wasn’t rehabbed because Kurt Angle touched it…

The title did mean something when Shamrock won it initially but it quickly became the mid-carder for life belt as demonstrated by how wishy-washy the title was presented around that time. It didn't start with Road Dogg it just got worse when he won it which isn't a good sign.

I'm also glad that 🤯 pointed out the reign happened AFTER the Outlaws broke up, whereas Road Dogg won when the New Age Outlaws were still a thing.

Also, if we say being the Jannetty entails allowing irresponsible substance abuse to mess up your career, I don't recall Gunn ever being shelved because of such demons. But Road Dogg straight up disappeared pre-WrestleMan X-Seve and never returned because of his drug struggles. So, in that regard, Dogg IMO has more in common with Jannetty (who was also a bit of a sore thumb IC Champ too, let's not forget).

Gun to head, I would say Gunn is the Jannetty for his Billy & Chucky gimmick alone. Was hard to take him seriously after that. I laughed whenever he or Palumbo would be on TV after the marriage to be ended up being a farce. 

Get Rowdy with Truth/KWik & 3 Liv Krew wasn't much better for Road Dogg but they went back to equal after the Voodoo Kin Mafia & James Gang Byah Byah atrociousness in TNA.

Gunn is mucking it up in AEW though while Road Dogg is writing and road agenting for the WWE still ala Michaels so I would say Gunn is the Jannetty but I voted equal in the poll.

I've shared a locker room with Billy. I've never met Road Dog. Overall, I'd say Billy is a better in ring competitor. I'm kinda surprised by everyone saying he sucked. Road Dog was much more charismatic, but even then, he did the same schtick every night, so it's hard to say he was great by any means on the mic. I think Billy is better. Smoking Guns were fine. Billy and Chuck was GOOD IMO. From an in ring perspective I actually think their like 2015 run was better than their Attitude Era run. NAO is really the only thing of note Road Dog did.

Funny Billy Gunn story. I'm ring announcing the show he was booked for. I ask him what he wants for his intro, "From parts unknown; from places unknown; the greatest professional wrestler to ever lace up the boots................and then I have no idea who comes out." He was popping everyone in the locker room with how funny he was. Clearly never translated on camera though.

Neither because neither was that much better then the other one. If I was in charge and had to pick only one for my roster it probably would be Road Dogg since charisma is a lot harder to come by and he was part of one of the hottest thing in both WWE and TNA in NOA and 3 Live Kru.

Billy was thrown in two popular group (3 Live Kru and the Beautiful People)in TNA and people still didn't care about.

And people are more inclined to watch a bad worker with good charisma over a good worker with bad charisma.

Jun 27, 2021 17:15:20 GMT 1RealSmartAlex said:

Overall, I'd say Billy is a better in ring competitor. I'm kinda surprised by everyone saying he sucked.

This all day. Billy Gunn haters are just insecure about feeling things during his Mr. Ass run and then getting worked into a shoot with their hopes up during the Billy & Chuck run.

And Billy being a crackup sounds about right considering how fun and funny he came across on Steve Austin's podcast.

Billy is much like Shelton in that he's extremely athletic, but I can see why people don't like them as workers.

Both guys often got the "best athlete" promotion on commentary.

Jun 27, 2021 23:05:18 GMT @ness said:

Billy is much like Shelton in that he's extremely athletic, but I can see why people don't like them as workers.

Both guys often got the "best athlete" promotion on commentary.

This makes me realize we need to redo our Jannetty countdown again with real stakes. Top 64. Winner becomes new label PW collectively agrees to use instead of Jannetty (assuming Jannetty loses out).

Shelton is definitely the HBK to Haas's Anvil, and I say that as someone who loves Haas.

Very surprised the majority of you voted the New Age Outlaws as equals. I always assumed Gunn > Road Dogg was a no brainer. What's next? Somebody gonna try convincing me the New Age Outlaws circa 1998 weren't the most over tag team in WWF history??

lol at 🤯's "Anvil of PW" description.

Speaking of the Anvil, I still get a kick out of that time PW voted him the #1 Jannetty just because that meant Marty Jannetty couldn't even manage to win his own countdown. That has to be the most Marty Jannetty thing ever.

For the record I was a New Age Outlaws hater on par with Kilgore during their 97-99 heyday. Couldn't stand 'em. Thought they were basically the worst. They were regulars on my Least Favorite list. But I've disliked a whole lot of popular wrestlers over the years. Can't deny the fact they were mega over. Older, slightly more mature me can respect that. 

I did become a Billy Gunn fan well after the Outlaws split though. When he came back from injury in late 2000 I suddenly found myself tolerating Billy Gunn for the first time in his 7 year WWF career. I'll admit it started out as a half ironic thing based around his penchant for gloriously over the top themes, and his new "One and Only" finisher, but he continued to grow on me until I became a genuine Billy Gunn fanboy during his awesome and underrated team with Chuck.

One of my favorite developments in 2010s wrestling was the rehabilitation of Billy Gunn. A lot of young talent during that period would put him over on interviews while mentioning him as an influence. Tanahashi chose to work with him on a rare NJPW show in the US. Comment sections often referred to him as "a legend" and "one of my all time favorites." I've heard stories of him winning over skeptical crowds at indie shows. Then you have 1RealSmartAlex mentioning what a fun guy he is. 

Jun 27, 2021 14:33:03 GMT @ness said:

Can we at least admit Road Dogg had one of the worst finishers of all time? On the rare occasion he actually used it. 

Yep. 

I don't mind the 'whiplash' version used by Test & Wrath though. That I can buy that as a finisher. But Road Dogg's wimpy half-assed version was a terrible finish. You know what the worst part is? Fellow low carder Justin "Hawk" Bradshaw was using it as a regular move at the same time "The Real Double J" was trying to get it over as a finish. It was doomed to fail. Road Dogg's shake, rattle, and roll knee drop was also stupid. 

Jun 27, 2021 14:41:02 GMT @ness said:

And THIS. THIS is what we need. A public poll.

Yep again.

Yeah, Road Dogg was a 1 trick dog but, he was serviceable. Gunn was a good wrestler but, outside of DX & Chuck, what was he? the one? ]I never understood the meaning of that gimmick] the assman? Road Dogg was a comedy wrestler. You can have him on the show. I never understood the good athlete tagline either. Especially without anything added to the praise. Cruiserweights are more accepted being described this way because they are so gifted, not many wrestlers can do what they can. I'm not saying Gunn was trash but, he seemed incapable of having that extra gear and maximizing his talent. Road Dogg did a lot given his ceiling.

Jun 28, 2021 1:51:20 GMT Baker said:

Somebody gonna try convincing me the New Age Outlaws circa 1998 weren't the most over tag team in WWF history??

Not me, they absolutely were.