A lot of people in the industry usually have it come down to him and Flair and the best to step foot in the ring. So many of a generation looked up to HBK as their idol. A smallish guy that moved amazingly, got to the top of the card and despite being a certified cunt (tm) he still did everything right in the ring. His drawing ability comes into question, but in the ring he doesn't really have a peer in a lot of ways. Some people like to stress "in North America" because I guess fictional asian guys like Jumbo Misawa and Hiroshi Kawada and Curry Man were doing big things oversees but let's be honest in the grand scheme of reaching eyes they weren't it.

Shawn also has the privilege of having a completely second legit run, which guys like Bret weren't privy to. Of course it's easy to pad out your body of work when guys from your original gen barely had PPV, so they didn't have a lot of chances to have consistent 20+ minute epics every month.

Originally was gonna contribute to the review thread by watching the first HIAC and that match (haven't rewatched yet) made me think... honestly it's probably on par or even better than the often praised Submission Match. Then the ball got rolling on this thread. Maybe I'll do my own Brocktober with Cunt Month for dickhead Shawn's original run until WM14. But yeah let's get something going... where do you rank Shawn amongst the greats? Is he the standard bearer?

no

He has a strong case to be made honestly.

That's a big no from me. If we're talking strictly in-ring, that's the only case that can maybe be made, but I find most of his signature matches don't hold up well, so still no. Very basic psychology and inconsistent. Like, even as basic as it is, he undermines large chunks of a match all the time -- Immediately thinking of all the leg work in the second Razor ladder match, or the back work in the SummerSlam Triple H match -- His comeback run was better on that front, but he built most drama on EPIC NEAR FALLS instead, which I would argue has aged even worse than his '90s stuff. The Undertaker Wrestlemania matches, so instantly regarded as some of the best matches ever, I don't think people would think that watching them today.

And that's just in-ring. When you throw in every other aspect of wrestling, which I would argue is more important than in-ring, he's not even close. He was a bad draw. His promos were okay, but not in the god tier of those that would rank ahead of him (Rock, Austin, Flair, Macho, and so on). I would also argue he often didn't get the most out out of programs. So many of them cut short, didn't get the proper finale, because Shawn didn't want to do it. This is very important stuff. Wrestling is all about the finale. Or he would intentionally sabotage big matches (Wrestlemania 11 against Diesel, SummerSlam against Hogan). This is not GOAT shit.

Nah. And I'll go through all the reasons why in a minute. But he would my crack Top 10 for the roughly 25-30 year period I consider "my era." Top 5 is not out of the question either. Really just depends on what I choose to value most on any given day. And he'd even finish #2 if I focus strictly on...

Ring Work: I'll always be a Flair guy at heart, but...
In the late 2000s I came up with lists of the best matches from all the promotions I had watched over the years- 80s, 90s, and 2000s WWF, 80s NWA, 90s WCW, ECW, US Territories, ROH, TNA, US Indies, and Japan. These lists varied from 25 to 100 matches. Then at the end I tallied up all the points scored by individual wrestlers because I'm a colossal nerd. Shawn finished #2 overall behind Flair. For what it's worth I had HBK surpassing Bret in 2005. It hurt. Even if I had come around on Michaels by that point.

Total Package: Again, falls short to Flair. And others.

Drawing Power: Pales in comparison to the likes of Hogan & Austin while once again lagging behind a good amount of others.

Influence: For better or worse (spoiler alert: it's worse) Shawn is probably the most influential wrestler on modern wrestling. Jericho and many others have patterned themselves after Michaels. He's basically what Ric Flair was back in the 80s & 90s in terms of influence. 

Longevity: Scores well, though, again, far from #1.

Versatility: Very high marks. Could wrestle or brawl. Was an effective babyface (at times) and so good as a heel that even I, a heel fan, genuinely despised him. Good on promos. Good in tag teams, the midcard, and the main event. 

This topic is pretty timely given the discourse around Kenny Omega. I find it pretty funny that fans have a difficult time wrapping their heads around a goofball like Kenny but giving a pass to Shawn Michaels who is one in the same. If anything, it was Shawn who really helped propel the modern style with the over-the-top selling and disregard for kayfabe. It's a testament to his ability he helped change the industry and influenced a generation, but I think once you accept Shawn Michaels as an acceptable candidate than you've got to consider the likes of Omega.

He's the best at wrestling in one company that will tell you he's the GOAT. Except when they're telling you his best friend is the GOAT.

Yes.

Aug 1, 2021 0:40:54 GMT Baker said:

Nah. And I'll go through all the reasons why in a minute. But he would my crack Top 10 for the roughly 25-30 year period I consider "my era." Top 5 is not out of the question either. Really just depends on what I choose to value most on any given day. And he'd even finish #2 if I focus strictly on...

Ring Work: I'll always be a Flair guy at heart, but...
In the late 2000s I came up with lists of the best matches from all the promotions I had watched over the years- 80s, 90s, and 2000s WWF, 80s NWA, 90s WCW, ECW, US Territories, ROH, TNA, US Indies, and Japan. These lists varied from 25 to 100 matches. Then at the end I tallied up all the points scored by individual wrestlers because I'm a colossal nerd. Shawn finished #2 overall behind Flair. For what it's worth I had HBK surpassing Bret in 2005. It hurt. Even if I had come around on Michaels by that point.

Total Package: Again, falls short to Flair. And others.

Drawing Power: Pales in comparison to the likes of Hogan & Austin while once again lagging behind a good amount of others.

Influence: For better or worse (spoiler alert: it's worse) Shawn is probably the most influential wrestler on modern wrestling. Jericho and many others have patterned themselves after Michaels. He's basically what Ric Flair was back in the 80s & 90s in terms of influence. 

Longevity: Scores well, though, again, far from #1.

Versatility: Very high marks. Could wrestle or brawl. Was an effective babyface (at times) and so good as a heel that even I, a heel fan, genuinely despised him. Good on promos. Good in tag teams, the midcard, and the main event. 

Pretty much how I see it, but I always roll my eyes when I see ,Flair ranked #1 in-ring.   Unless he was facing someone like Ricky Steamboat he worked the same damn routine every match.  Bret Hart, Ricky Steamboat, Verne Gagne, Eddie Guerrero , Randy Savage,and yes Shawn Michaels were all better in the ring than Flair was along with quite a few others.

Lol no! The man lost his credibility by getting beat up all the time.

Nahhhh.

One of the greatest ever but still very much overrated. Oversells way too much, just like Flair but Flair could actually cut a great promo (legendary, really). HBK had his moments on the mic but he was nothing overly too special in that regard either - he was good, not great.

Shawn had three things in spades - athleticism, high spots and the ability to work the crowd. Oh yeah, and needlessly fucking people over all the time but he's not even the GOAT of that but a runner-up to Hulk Hogan instead, brother.

No, it’s Ric Flair.