Dec 6, 2021 3:13:37 GMT Baker said:

Poor TNA gets no love here or anywhere else. Truly the red headed stepchild of 21st Century wrestling. But I'm going to rectify that situation for one night only. Been working on a rare TNA project ever since @ness made a post about Monty Brown a few days back. Will probably reveal it tomorrow night.

Rebooking TNA Champions

How it went...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NWA_World_Heavyweight_Champions 2002-2007
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Impact_World_Champions

How it should have gone...

Ken Shamrock: 6/19/02 to 8/7/02
Ron "The Truth" Killings: 8/7/02 to 11/20/02
Jeff Jarrett: 11/20/02 to 4/30/03
Raven: 4/30/03 to 10/22/03
Jeff Jarrett (2): 10/22/03 to 3/17/04
AJ Styles: 3/17/04 to 6/2/04
Jeff Jarrett (3): 6/2/04 to 1/16/05
Monty Brown: 1/16/05 to 8/14/05
Jeff Jarrett (4): 8/14/05 to 10/23/05
Samoa Joe: 10/23/05 to 11/19/06
Kurt Angle: 11/19/06 to 6/17/07
Christian Cage: 6/17/07 to 10/14/07
Sting: 10/14/07 to 2/10/08
Kurt Angle (2): 2/10/08 to 6/8/08
Samoa Joe (2): 6/8/08 to 10/12/08
AJ Styles (2): 10/12/08 to 10/18/09
Christopher Daniels: 10/18/09 to 12/5/09
Jeff Jarrett (5): 12/5/09 to 1/17/10
Jeff Hardy: 1/17/10 to ----

Explanations

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}

I kept one eye on what was going on in 2002 TNA without actually watching it. So I'll just stick with Shamrock & Truth as champs. Shamrock was a big enough name to be the inaugural champ and by all accounts Truth had gotten himself over enough to warrant a run with the title. There's also something very "ECW" about a Big Two failure like Truth who finally finds his mojo in the new alternative promotion. Plus giving JJ the belt too soon (JJ giving himself the belt too soon?) would have left a bad taste in the mouths of many fans.

But JJ is our next champ just like in real life. It was inevitable that a guy who grew with a front row seat to Lawlermania would give himself the Lawler in Memphis babyface push. Didn't really work because Jarrett was always a lousy babyface outside of USWA, but at least we get it out of the way early. Plus he's arguably the biggest name in the company and the one guy guaranteed to be in it for the long haul.

Raven was TNA's biggest acquisition during their early years as a cult favorite who was cruelly misused by the evil Big Two. Raven coming in is the reason I finally started watching the promotion. JJ/Raven on 4/30/03 (I still remember the date!) was the most hyped and highest drawing match of TNA's first few years. Unfortunately, it would also be TNA's first big booking blunder (there were 3 major ones during my time as a TNA fan). 

The entire booking of the Raven/JJ feud was honestly a mixed bag of off charts the hype and straight up suck. JJ as the face and Raven as the heel when fans were clamoring for the roles to be reversed was stupid stupid stupid. So in this universe Raven comes in as Jarrett's uneasy ally to help him fend off Vince Russo's SEX (ugh) until JJ inevitably turns full heel on Raven because he views him as the most serious threat to his title. Maybe they have an earlier match, say in February, where JJ goes heel by pulling out every low down dirty Memphis trick in the book to escape with the belt? Yet Raven ultimately goes over strong on 4/30 to win the belt. This is essential. Styles and D'Lo join JJ as Raven's most persistent challengers. We can also have Raven work his way through ECW again with the first time ever(!) match against Sabu being the most hyped of these contests. Raven becomes increasingly paranoid during his reign until morphing into the classic heel version of himself with a new Flock to help protect his precious NWA Championship and keep things fresh.

JJ (2) was on a roll as "Mr. October" in real life 2003 TNA. Have him regain the title that very month largely to set up the mega hyped JJ/Hogan match that never did come to fruition. Jarrett defends against the likes of Raven, Truth, AJ, D'Lo, Lynn, Red, Dusty, and even manages to make Chris Harris of AMW look like a future superstar just like in real life. JJ is also the safe choice. There was a very real fear among TNA fans at the time that WWF would poach any wrestler who got too hot. Or simply raid the roster if the promotion itself started picking up steam. Again, JJ was a big name and the one guy you could count on not to jump. So I think it makes sense to use him as the longterm placeholder champion until their Next Big Thing comes along.

*Giving myself the Barry Horowitz pat on the back for keeping my goofier instincts in check for once by not going all in on Erik Watts  

AJ finally gets over the hump by dethroning JJ mainly to break up the monotony and give the fans something to cheer for since even I think a 13 month JJ title reign would be too much. Real life AJ in TNA was one of the more amusingly booked wrestlers in history simply because they booked him as a "hot young up and comer" for a good seven or eight years even after he had already been The Champ three or four times. Never failed to get a kick out of that. Hopefully we avoid it in this universe. Jerry Lynn and Jeff Hardy were other options for this admittedly filler reign, but I chose AJ over a Lynn "thank you" reign to reward the man who would ultimately become Mr. TNA, while Hardy debuted a little too late in the process for my plans. A Lynn/AJ feud over the belt with the student having surpassed the now-jealous teacher sounds good tho.

JJ (3) beats AJ and does a Flair run as the top heel after already doing his Lawler run as the top face. JJ living the dream. He does Double J things for seven months with his big feud being the Battle of the Jeffs against the recently acquired Jeff Hardy. Again, I was very tempted to go with a Hardy reign before deciding against it. 2004 Jeff Hardy wasn't 08-09, or even 99-01 Jeff Hardy. Mid-2000s Jeff Hardy was one of the more polarizing figures in all of wrestling. Yes, he had his loyal diehard fans, but just as many couldn't stand him. Plus I didn't want to diminish the value of...

Monty Brown ending Jarrett's reign of terror in a 5 minute squash on PPV. 2000s TNA fans always had an inferiority complex which gave them a chip on their shoulder. Their promotion of choice was never the biggest (WWE) or the trendiest/smarkiest (ROH). They had long been clamoring for a true homegrown star they could get behind. Truth was the first, but he fizzled out pretty quickly. For a long time the best they had was AJ Styles. But ROH fans never tired of reminding them that AJ had wrestled in their promotion of choice before TNA was even a thing. Heck, he had even wrestled for WCW! Enter Monty Brown. He was The Guy. The Chosen Ones TNA fans had long been searching for. Looked like a million bucks. Former pro football player who was promoted as playing in an actual Super Bowl. Had a very cool, very over move in the Pounce. Charismatic. Could talk. I personally viewed him as a cross between The Rock and Goldberg. Can't get much better than that. So he's the perfect choice to end Jarrett's reign of terror. Not doing so in real life is the second of TNA's three big booking fails. Monty Brown would have been The Guy long term if an even better choice would not soon present itself.....But that's a story for next time...

To be continued.

 

 

I'm loving the TNA-revival project Baker. I'm not sure if it's popped up in your feed but there's a pretty big channel called Marky D where a British guy recaps classic TNA and covers a bunch of obscure runs. It's one of my favourite channels and usually something nice to put on in the background. One video I watched recently was about Jarrett's runs on top and it just reminded me how awful AJ's initial run was. For me that's something I would have kept in my back-pocket and then AJ would have been a multi-time champion from that point on.

I'm looking forward to the 2008-on explanations since that's what I'm familiar with and there's a couple there that really need to be elaborated on.

Also no love for 'The Monster' Abyss?

Looking back at the early days of TNA, and remembering how much comedy stuff he's done in WWE for the last 15 or so years, one almost forget gets how good R-Truth was in a serious gimmick. He was one of the bright spots in early TNA.

Big Pete, Abyss was very under-rated. It's just that much of his booking was questionable.

Let's see when I started following TNA we had...

Kurt Angle (3) - TNA Impact 10/25/07 - LockDown 2008
Samoa Joe (1) - LockDown 2008 - Bound For Glory 2008
Sting (3) - Bound For Glory 2008 - LockDown 2009
Mick Foley (1) - LockDown 2009 - Slammiversary 2009
Kurt Angle (4) - Slammiversary 2009 - No Surrender 2009
AJ Styles (4) - No Surrender 2009 - Impact 4/19/10
Rob Van Dam (1) - Impact 4/19/10 - Impact 8/19/10
Vacated
Jeff Hardy (1) - Bound For Glory 2010 - Genesis 2011
Mr. Anderson (1) - Genesis 2011 - Against All Odds 2011
Jeff Hardy (2) - Against All Odds 2011 - Victory Road 2011
Sting (4) - Victory Road 2011 - Slammiversary 2011
Mr. Anderson (2) - Slammiversary 2011 - Impact 7/14/11
Sting (5) - Impact 7/14/11 - Hardcore Justice 2011
Kurt Angle (5) - Hardcore Justice 2011 - Impact 10/20/11
James Storm (1) - Impact 10/20/11 - Impact 11/3/11
Bobby Roode (1) - Impact 11/3/11 - Destination X 2012
Austin Aries (1) - Destination X 2012 - Bound For Glory 2012
Jeff Hardy (3) Bound For Glory 2012 - LockDown 2013
Bully Ray (1) - LockDown 2013 - Impact 7/18/13
Chris Sabin (1) - Impact 7/18/13 - Impact 8/15/13
Bully Ray (2) - Impact 8/15/13 - Bound For Glory 2013
AJ Styles (5) - Bound For Glory 2013 - Impact 10/29/13
Vacated
Magnus (1) - Impact 12/19/13 - Impact 4/10/14
Eric Young (1) - Impact 4/10/14 - Impact 6/19/14
Lashley (1) - Impact 6/19/14 - Impact 10/29/14
Bobby Roode (2) - Impact 10/29/14 -

And that's where I lost touch with Impact. Styles leaves the company and joins NJPW while Hogan ends up leaving and in Australia it was on the PPV channel that 90% of the time played ads for the upcoming shows.

Going back through a lot of this and I can't complain too much. Angle - Joe at LockDown 2008 was a huge event for the company and was an effective way to kick things off for Joe. While it's not ideal for Joe to drop the belt to a 50-year old Sting they were telling the story with the Main Event Mafia and that was one of the better factions going at that time.

The first real problem was Foley winning the belt. I love Mick but he was so broken down at this point that he had no reason to win the title. It was effectively a transitional run anyways so they would have been better off skipping the middle man and going with Angle. You can even have Joe get involved as vengeance for Bound For Glory (without having him draw a penis on his face...).

Everything from there was fine but in hindsight rushing the belt to Rob Van Dam was a poor idea. This was TNA's desperate attempt to bump up their Monday Night War rating and it didn't really work. The fact they didn't have him lose the title to anybody and just had him drop it after getting attacked by Abyss didn't help matters either. I'd say it took ages for the title to get back on track and that was only when Kurt won it so they could execute the Beer Money turn. Bobby Roode choked at Bound For Glory, Storm beat Angle a week later on Impact and Roode turned on Storm and beat him a couple of weeks later before going on his run which was really good.

Aries winning was kind of random, but they were getting over this concept where the X-Division champion could vacate the title for a show at the world heavyweight title. Fans weren't complaining either since Aries had been one of the better workers in the company. I think that was all OK until they had him lose to Jeff as some sort of redemption story for Jeff. Fans had forgiven Jeff but they weren't right behind him for another championship run.

Bully Ray winning was deserved and he was really over at that time as one of the best heels in wrestling. I think the loss to Sabin backfired - this was Sabin coming back from a horrific knee injury that kept him out but this would have been like Hardcore Holly beating Brock at the 2004 Royal Rumble. Fans weren't THAT into Sabin and the MCMG really was a thing of the past by this point.

AJ to Magnus aka Nick Aldis may sound good on paper but the whole deal was just to make Dixie Carter the biggest focal point of TNA which really hurt the company. Eric Young got a thank you run with the title which was very similar to the Sabin run before they rebooted and went with Lashley who made a proper commitment to TNA after a pretty nothing run in 2009. I wasn't watching a ton of TNA at this point but it was a pretty sensible run and Bobby beating him as a babyface was fine. Maybe it should have happened at Bound For Glory but they had a weird iteration that year where they worked against Wrestle-1 over in Japan. Lashley would eventually regain the championship only to lose it to Angle but all that took place during the Destination America phase and by that point TNA was well and truly no longer considered a major promotion.

TL;DR
The Foley reign needs to be cancelled and everything from RVD winning the title to Sting dropping the title to Kurt needs to be reworked. I think Bobby Roode's reign could have ended better as well and 2013 could be handled better as well.

Glad Big Pete covered latter day TNA since that's a weak point for me due to my TNA fandom declining pretty much every year from its peak in 2003 until I stopped watching entirely in 08-09.

I have watched a few of Marky D's videos! Went down a rabbit hole on them a month or two ago. 

I did not forget about Abyss. Just never thought the timing was right to give him a run on top....yet. I did plan on giving him a thank you run in the 2010s. Seems like the perfect guy to finally shut up that darn Bully Ray.

I mostly missed out on serious Truth. He had already lost the NWA Championship by the time I started watching. I remember him mainly for the comedy stuff with Three Live Kru.

Rebooking TNA Champions Part Two

How it went...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NWA_World_Heavyweight_Champions 2002-2007
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Impact_World_Champions

How it should have gone...

Ken Shamrock: 6/19/02 to 8/7/02
Ron "The Truth" Killings: 8/7/02 to 11/20/02
Jeff Jarrett: 11/20/02 to 4/30/03
Raven: 4/30/03 to 10/22/03
Jeff Jarrett (2): 10/22/03 to 3/17/04
AJ Styles: 3/17/04 to 6/2/04
Jeff Jarrett (3): 6/2/04 to 1/16/05
Monty Brown: 1/16/05 to 8/14/05
Jeff Jarrett (4): 8/14/05 to 10/23/05
Samoa Joe: 10/23/05 to 11/19/06
Kurt Angle: 11/19/06 to 6/17/07
Christian Cage: 6/17/07 to 10/14/07
Sting: 10/14/07 to 2/10/08
Kurt Angle (2): 2/10/08 to 6/8/08
Samoa Joe (2): 6/8/08 to 10/12/08
AJ Styles (2): 10/12/08 to 10/18/09
Christopher Daniels: 10/18/09 to 12/5/09
Jeff Jarrett (5): 12/5/09 to 1/17/10
Jeff Hardy: 1/17/10 to ----

Explanations

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}We left off with Monty Brown as The Guy. Jarrett knows he can't beat him so he does the natural super villain thing of throwing all his henchman at him. Monty defeats Nash, Scott Steiner, Billy Gunn & Abyss (whom JJ was controlling) in this storyline. Brown also defeats the recently acquired Rhino in a clash of the titans revolving around pounce vs. gore and gains the endorsement of DDP after defeating him in DDP/Goldberg 2.0. Looks like TNA has finally found its long term babyface champ...

Until JJ 4 shocks the world by dethroning Monty Brown when that dastardly Rhino turns heel by goring Brown. BOO! The TNA faithful pelt the ring with trash as the most hated man in the company reclaims his top spot. Rhino would explain his heel turn by hinting that he knows he can't beat Monty, but does know he can defeat JJ. Next month sees wily vet JJ retain in a Triple Threat after Rhino & Monty practically kill each other. JJ is on top of the world...

Until Samoa Joe interrupts his victory celebration on the next Impact to raucous applause from the TNA faithful. Joe was red hot from the minute he walked into TNA. He had looked dominant and carried himself like a true badass monster in the vein of a Vader or a Brock Lesnar. TNA management (me) decided way back in July-August to make Joe the guy. Joe is also just coming off the most famous match in TNA history- one he lost without really losing.

Monty squashed JJ in under 5 minutes. Joe does it under 3. TNA not going all in on Joe was their 3rd big booking blunder. And I would argue the biggest of the three. Check this out...

In real life JJ is the most hated man in the company. Think 2003 Triple H on steroids. Joe is this badass monster whom the fans love. Basically a near 300 pound Taz. They only have one PPV match! Joe wins, obviously. But get this. It's non-title! And there is no follow up! Vintage TNA!

Anyway, Joe redoes his legendary ROH Championship run in TNA by going through a murderer's row of challengers which includes big name superstars, Joe's fellow indie darlings, and a handful of homegrown TNA stars. Nash, Steiner, Rhino, JJ, the recently acquired Christian, J. Hardy, Raven & Truth, Abyss, AJ, Daniels, a resurgent Sabu, and Monty Brown in a big money match all succumb to Joe in the greatest Championship run the company will ever see. Joe basically runs through everybody of note save Sting, who was tentatively penciled in to defeat Joe. Until...

Kurt Angle became available. I understand some wouldn't have been happy about this. "Giving Angle the belt right away and having him defeat the undefeatable Joe just reinforces the WWE > TNA narrative!1!1!!" I would accept this argument for a B+ player like Christian or 2004 Jeff Hardy. Or even an A- one like Booker T. I'll even give you an A+ player who had been largely out of the limelight for half a decade like Sting, or "retired" for eight years like Mick Foley. But Kurt Angle was an A+ player still perceived to be in the prime of his career who just fell into TNA's lap. You HAVE TO go all in on Angle. TNA would arguably never get a bigger star. Let's look at the facts...

Angle was a WWE World Champion who put the title on the line at Wrestlemania that very year! He was in the consensus WWE MOTY (vs. Taker) that very year! He had wrestled in a WWE/World Championship match at 3 of the last 4 Wrestlemanias! The one time he didn't, all he did was have an instant classic with HBK that would go down as one of the most famous WWE matches of the entire decade! There is absolutely no shame in having the Wrestling Observer Newsletter Wrestler of the Decade walk into the #2 company in the US and immediately become the top guy. If anything, TNA should be thankful such a talent fell into their lap. 

So Angle ends Joe's 13 month championship reign and 17 month undefeated streak while drawing the biggest buyrate in company history. No regrets! 

*These explanations are taking waaaaay longer than expected so I'll have to come back later with Part 3. Hopefully with shorter explanations!

 

Dec 7, 2021 5:52:36 GMT Big Pete said:

I'm loving the TNA-revival project Baker. I'm not sure if it's popped up in your feed but there's a pretty big channel called Marky D where a British guy recaps classic TNA and covers a bunch of obscure runs. It's one of my favourite channels and usually something nice to put on in the background. One video I watched recently was about Jarrett's runs on top and it just reminded me how awful AJ's initial run was. For me that's something I would have kept in my back-pocket and then AJ would have been a multi-time champion from that point on.

I'm looking forward to the 2008-on explanations since that's what I'm familiar with and there's a couple there that really need to be elaborated on.

Also no love for 'The Monster' Abyss?

If you aren’t watching Marky D then you can shove it!

Dec 11, 2021 0:22:36 GMT System said:

If you aren’t watching Marky D then you can shove it!

I watched him bury poor Double J after my last post in this thread.

Lost a post about a week ago explaining the second half of my rebooked TNA Champions list due to the dreaded Error 4 message and don't feel like doing all that writing again.

Oct 20, 2022 12:22:08 GMT Baker said:

Tempted to do a quickie fanfic project chronicling how I thought the WWF, WCW, and maybe ECW championship lineages would look. It'll be wild.

Throw in TNA or I'll smack you with a brick!

Oct 20, 2022 14:31:22 GMT Big Pete said:

Oct 20, 2022 12:22:08 GMT Baker said:

Tempted to do a quickie fanfic project chronicling how I thought the WWF, WCW, and maybe ECW championship lineages would look. It'll be wild.

Throw in TNA or I'll smack you with a brick!

Starting in January 2003 since that's when I started watching TNA and with only a few minor tweaks from the last time I did this pwcom.proboards.com/thread/4548/rebooking-tna-champions

Jeff Jarrett: - to April 2003
Raven: April 2003 to October 2003
Jeff Jarrett (2): October 2003 to Late 03 or Early 04
Hulk Hogan: Late 03 or Early 04 to whenever they realize he's never coming back
Jeff Jarrett (3): Early 2004 to June 2004
Chris Harris: June 2004- June 2004
Jeff Jarrett (4): June 2004-January 2005
Monty Brown: January 2005- September 2005
Jeff Jarrett (5): September 2005- October 2005
Samoa Joe: October 2005- November 2006
Kurt Angle: November 2006- June 2007
Christian: June 2007- October 2007
Sting: October 2007- April 2008
Kurt Angle (2): April 2008-October 2008
AJ Styles: October 2008-October 2009
Christopher Daniels: October 2009-November 2009
Jeff Jarrett [6]: November 2009- January 2010
Jeff Hardy: January 2010- ?

*Not sure after that other than giving James Storm & Abyss well deserved thank you runs. Oh, and Bully Ray. Definitely going all the way with Bully Ray. Truth is I was just winging it once we got into 2008. Last time I slipped another Joe run in that year. This time I opted to extend the runs of Angle and The Stinger. Hogan & Harris are new to this one. Both were teased in real life TNA.

-Raven winning the big 4/30/03 match with Jarrett was a lock to 2003 me

-But he can't hold it forever and JJ is always the default option in TNA even when there isn't a money match with Hogan on the horizon

-If you have Hogan, you push Hogan. Even if it's only one match that match would be the biggest draw in TNA history to date. Possibly ever.

-Harris dethrones JJ on the 1st or 2nd episode of Impact on Fox Sports. Go big or go home. Show the fans anything can happen in TNA right off the bat. Make it a big deal. Air video packages chronicling their history. Have all the babyfaces come out to celebrate with Harris. Reward the thousands of fans who were ordering the weekly PPVs by paying off a long term storyline. I realize this is the ballsiest move of the bunch because lol Braden Walker, but Harris was over, they actually were building him up to be a future main eventer, and 03-07 me believed in "The Wildcat."

-Of course the good vibes don't last and he loses it back to Jarrett a few weeks later for multiple reasons

-Monty beating Jarrett at their January 2005 PPV was another "lock." He was gonna be THE guy in TNA. And then another juggernaut came along...

-Samoa Joe. Thought Joe losing the X Division Title with an out at Unbreakable 2005 was done just to free him up for a run with the NWA Championship. Also would have given him a ready made challenger in AJ after Joe steamrolled JJ the following month at Bound For Glory.

-Getting Christian at the beginning of Joe's run gave them two hot hands. I made the tough choice to go all in on Joe in order to redo his legendary ROH Championship run in another promotion. But you could just as easily end it early to make B+ player Christian a bona fide main event A player 

-Angle was an even hotter hand than Christian or Joe. He was the biggest acquisition they'd ever have. So I'm going all the way with Angle on day one

-Christian needs a run with the belt to justify his jump. Took a while but having him dethrone Angle would give him the credibility he craved

-Sting also needed a run on top at some point

-Angle 2 is basically just a filler run to bridge the gap...

-To AJ Styles. 2000s me admittedly never saw AJ as a main event player, but by this point he'd be their beloved veteran workhorse like a 1992 Bret (or 1996 HBK if you're more of a Michaels guy). Meaning it was finally time to go all the way with AJ

-Daniels deserved it. And what better way to get it than by having him finally beat his greatest rival to end AJ's championship run at one year?

-Jarrett 6 is a total troll move. He's the most hated man in TNA history. By this point the TNA faithful thought they were free of his reigns of terror. Then BAM! He shows up outta nowhere to cut the deserving Daniels run short and is at his insufferable best gloating about it...

-Until Jeff Hardy debuts on their big 1/4/10 show. Arguably the 2nd biggest acquisition in company history. He beats JJ 13 days later at their next PPV

Oct 18, 2022 1:12:32 GMT Baker said:

Tempted to do a quickie fanfic project chronicling how I thought the WWF, WCW, and maybe ECW championship lineages would look. It'll be wild.

Explanations to come. Lord knows I have a lot of explaining to do!

Vader: December 92- October 93
Cactus Jack: October 93- December 93
Vader: December 93- February 94
Ice Train: February 94- July 94
Vader: July 94- September 94
The Patriot: September 94- March 95 or September 95
(Ric Flair or Steve Austin: March 95- May 95
Dustin Rhodes: May 95- September 95)
Scott Norton: September 95- December 95
Sting: December 95- March or April 96
Ric Flair: March or April 96- July 96
Paul Orndorff: July 96- August 96
Jeff Jarrett: August 96- December 96
The Giant: December 96- February 98 or July 98
(Bret Hart: February 98 to July 98)
Goldberg: July 98- December 99?
Sting or Scott Steiner or maybe AWA's Hulk Hogan or WWF legend Lex Luger returning home or who knows?: December 99?- ??

I have questions, so many questions...

Nov 11, 2022 18:55:40 GMT Big Pete said:

I have questions, so many questions...

First, the ground rules.

1. What did I think would happen in real life? Everything else stems from this. Sometimes you see a wrestler and think "That guy will be world champion one day." Here I make it happen. A good barometer for what I thought would happen would be my old basement wrestling league figures. Luckily I remember most of it because, like @aaron , I remember random, pointless stuff like that. So many of those seemingly off the wall choices were champions in my 93-96 wrestling figure leagues. Sometimes I'll be recycling the same storylines! No matter how silly it looks on paper, I can assure you that post wasn't a lark. I'm not trolling or taking the piss. 

2. Made the decision to go with no Hogan. Look, having Hogan is boring. If you have The Hulkster, you push him to the top. End of story. It's much more fun to play around with no Hogan. In this universe Hogan reunites with Greg Gagne and they reform the AWA in early 94. It airs on Chicago-based WGN. All the ex-WWF Friends of Hogan who polluted the WCW upper card in 94-95 end up going along with Hogan to AWA in this universe, Randy Savage included. DDP also ends up AWA in this universe since I didn't see a single penny in the Diamond man, let alone dimes. WWF is also much different in this universe (Lugermania! among other things I may cover in a later post) which affects thing down the line.

3. It's more fantastic than realistic. Duh. With TNA I adhered to reality. With this one I'm letting things get a little crazy.

4. I fiddled a little bit with time frames to squeeze in everything I wanted to squeeze in. Just wave it off as the Hogan Butterfly Effect.

5. I'm a big fan of that 93-mid 94 WCW vibe. That's the vibe I'm shooting for here. I've talked before about feeling like that era of WCW was "my promotion" whereas the bigger WWF belonged to the world. Not saying I preferred WCW to WWF, but more like it was this hidden gem the rest of the world was missing out on. To quote country music legends Alabama a day after the death of one of their members, "our ballclub may be minor league, but at least it's Triple A." That's the sort of vibe I'm shooting for here. "We're #2!" WCW just out there proudly doing their own thing the way they always had seemingly without a care in the world for what the bigger fish WWF was doing.

6. Probably not going super in depth with it, but I'll touch on the secondary titles as well. 

7. Started this project in early 93 because that's when I started watching WCW full time. Watched NWA at least semi-regularly from 87-89, but was too young and stupid to have strong opinions, or dabble in predictions. For the most part I just enjoyed what I saw without thinking about it too much. ALTHOUGH I did think Windham would dethrone Flair in 87 and Luger would do the same in 88. Then I lost track of WCW for a while due to tv issues in my area until playground scuttlebutt over the Black Scorpion angle brought me back via grainy DC Channel 50 in late 1990. Kept up with it a little bit into 91 before losing track of the promotion again for another year and a half. Only prediction I remember from that brief 90-91 return (which was probably only like 5 shows) would be "The Minotaur will be their next big bad guy a la Undertaker over in WWF!" Wrestling figure league storylines stemming from that brief 90-91 return include a weirdly awesome Hansen/Owen feud and State Patrol's James Earl Wright, of all people, getting a 1995 Barry Horowitz style underdog babyface push.

8. All my predictions/ideas were dried up by the time we get into 1997 since I stopped watching WCW in August 96. But I was a Giant Guy when I stopped watching. Genuinely thought he was the future of the company, if not the business, so I decided to go all in on him with a year+ championship reign in this Hogan-free environment. But you can really discount everything after 96. Might not even explain 97 and beyond since I'd just be faking it to make it.

*Be back to explain my individual choices sometime over the weekend

Nov 11, 2022 17:41:46 GMT Baker said:

1. Vader: December 92- October 93
2. Cactus Jack: October 93- December 93
3. Vader: December 93- February 94
4. Ice Train: February 94- July 94
5. Vader: July 94- September 94
6. The Patriot: September 94- March 95 or September 95

1. Vader had a good run as the dominant monster heel champ. Scrapping the pointless Vader-Sting title switches on the March UK tour in this universe.

2. One of the first things that springs to mind whenever I have 1993 WCW on the brain is the Vader/Cactus feud. It started out so great. Then it went off the rails with the infamous "Lost In Cleveland" stuff (though 1993 me admittedly just rolled with it after some initial confusion because yay! Cactus is back!). Here we scrap Lost In Cleveland and get back to making it a down and dirty blood feud. Normally I wouldn't pull the trigger for fear of cheapening Foley's iconic WWF Title win. But this universe is so different who knows if Foley even goes to WWF in this world? So the time is right to give Mick his big feel good win. Let's face it. Beloved babyface returning from injury to get revenge on the jerk who put him out of action is Pro Wrestling 101. Steamboat/Savage was one of the big feuds when I first got into wrestling. High profile Hogan feuds followed the same template on multiple occasions. So Cactus wins! And the WCW fanbase rejoices. Oh, and his lone high profile defense is a win over Maxx Payne in a BattleBowl brawl. Then they become friends.

3. Vader wins BattleBowl in November (more on that in a bit) to earn his rematch at Starrcade where he regains the title in a war that somehow needs to surpass their previous battles. Maybe something Hell In The Cell-y? If anyone can do it it's those two! Hate having to scrap Flair/Vader, which is my favorite post-1989 WCW match, but sometimes hard choices must be made.

4. What isn't a hard choice is going all in on Ice Train! Look, I get it. He's green as grass. He never amounted to much. By his 96 return the WCW roster was stacked so he wasn’t quite as automatic (though I still thought he’d do more), but 93-94 me thought he was destined for greatness...93-94 me thought he was $$$. And that is a hill I am willing to die on. He had 2 of the 3 Top Babyface attributes (more on that in a bit) and WCW did need a new top good guy. Love Cactus, but even during his WWF heyday he never was THE guy. Sting? Been there, done that. Flair? 93-94 me didn't respect him as much as I should have. Ice Train had The Look. He had charisma. He WAS connecting with WCW crowds! The "toot toot" stuff was over! He moved around well for a guy his size. He was already no selling iirc. Have him no sell even more and just steamroll dudes. It's been forgotten, but real life 1993 WCW actually did come within a whisker of giving him a big push if my theory is correct.

The November BattleBowl PPV sees him eliminated last by Vader after putting up a tough fight. Perhaps his increasingly jealous mentor Ron Simmons plays a part by finally turning on his protege? Train gets his revenge by beating Vader to win the Jesse The Body Arm Wrestling Tournament a few weeks later (this is where they could have made Train irl). Have Vader (and Simmons?) attack him afterwards because they're sore losers. Train beats Simmons at Starrcade 93, the January 94 Clash, or both. Then he shocks the world by manhandling Vader in route to victory during their rubber match at SuperBrawl IV. WCW is now riding the Ice Train to the promised land...

5. EXCEPT they brought in a new guy who was even more $$$$$ to 1994 me. So we'll just say Train wasn't drawing as well as WCW had hoped against challengers such as Payne & Jack (who reverted back to heeldom out of jealousy over Train’s popularity) and Norton (more on him tomorrow). So we have Train drop the belt back to Vader at Bash At The Beach 94. Vader ends the "Jungle" Jim Steele experiment at the August 94 Clash transitioning to….

6. The Patriot. Way back in 1991 GWF I had this guy pegged as The Next Hulk Hogan. Earlier I touched on the Three Attribute Of Top Babyface (from the mid 80s-mid 90s). Here they are- 1. Jacked 2. Patriotic 3. No seller. In a world where Hogan is King it only makes sense to follow the leader. Patriot is a jacked dude who no sold in Global and he is literally called The Patriot. Dude was a dime drawing cheat code. Who needs old, expensive Hogan when you can create your own young, cheaper Hogan? Plus the mask gave him an additional hook. Plus plus he moved around the ring well, did more than the Hogan/Warrior/Lugers of the world, and the Uncle Slam was a cool finisher for the time. I thought for sure The Patriot would steamroll Regal for the TV Title a la Warrior over Honky and become the long reigning WCW Champion within a few months. I more or less foresaw this as a dumb mark kid watching 1991 Global! But OF COURSE stupid WCW goes and blows a sure thing.

Not in this world though. Patriot does indeed steamroll His Lordship for the TV Title at SuperBrawl in the style of Warrior wrecking HTM. Patriot defends it on TV every week. Then he takes the US Title from Austin at, say, Bash At The Beach. We're laying it on real thick with The Patriot. He appears on every show every week. We're doing everything we can to tell you he's The Guy aside from coming right out and saying it. Think HBK in the months leading up to WM 12. Patriot is already a double champ going into Fall Brawl: War Games where he beats Vader to win the big one. The Patriot now holds the WCW, US, and TV titles. Take that, Warrior! He obviously relinquishes the US & TV straps.

Patriot defends against the usual collection of WCW main event baddies (and his arch-rival Regal) until his mysterious new nemesis The Dark Patriot* screws him out of the title at Uncensored 95 in an homage to both The Patriot's past in Global and the great Black Scorpion angle which was one of the few things to actually draw some dimes during WCW's early 90s dark days.

Or you can just have The Patriot hold the gold for nearly a full year. Was initially going in that direction before ultimately opting out just because I wanted to slip all my old ideas in.

*Dark Patriot is OBVIOUSLY going to be played by Tom Brandi because if I'm fantasy booking, I'm fantasy booking for myself. Plus it plays into their future fracas over the Patriot gimmick.

🤯 this belongs on yesterday's Baker's Dozen. And the best part is I'm only halfway through. It's gonna get even better tomorrow...

Nov 11, 2022 17:41:46 GMT Baker said:

1. The Patriot: September 94- March 95
2. Ric Flair (2a. or Steve Austin): March 95- May 95
3. Dustin Rhodes: May 95- September 95

1. Originally I was going to give The Patriot a year long run with the title. Only reason I didn't do it outright from the get go is because I wanted to cram all my ideas in. But since Bischoff recently debunked my 'Patriot should have been a top guy!' theory in four simple words- "couldn't cut a promo" let's commit to taking the title off him at Uncensored '95.

2. Up to now you may be thinking I haven't been fair to Flair. I took away one of his all time great matches/moments by scrapping the Starrcade 93 win over Vader. I didn't give him the WCW Championship until 15 months after he won it in real life. Fear not! As if I would ever be unfair to Flair! There is a method to my madness. Remember, 93-94 was the period where WCW had two world titles. My idea was to have the best of both worlds. The WCW Championship would be used to bring in the new, younger fan. Basically The Hogan Generation without actually springing for Hulk Hogan (because that would make the project boring). I paid off a long term storyline by having Cactus dethrone Vader. Then I went all in on Ice Train and The Patriot as top babyfaces in an attempt to get that elusive Hogan demographic which, let's face it, Sting only ever reached to a certain extent. What isn't known until now is the whole time this is going on I had Flair with a stranglehold on the NWA Championship...

WCW always cared more about their history than WWF. Aside from trotting Snuka out on occasion WWF never cared much about their own history until they could afford to monetize it after the demise of WCW. Meanwhile, WCW still had that older, hardcore Mid Atlantic fanbase obsessed with The Glory Days. The NWA title would be used to cater to that demographic with Flair replaying his greatest hits against Windham, Steamboat, Sting, Muta, Funk, and Rhodes (Dustin). It may be a step slower nowadays, but bah gawd that's what the people want! And it wouldn't be a total nostalgiafest because he'd still be putting out some new hits alongside the likes of The Hollywood Blonds, Rude, Dustin, and Vader. Maybe I bump the memorable Flair/Arn match up a year early? Yes, that sounds good. I could also run Flair/Cactus in a clash of styles. Maybe go with Flair/Vader at Starrcade 94 in an attempt to recapture their real life Starrcade 93 magic. WCW was running a big show almost every month by this point. I have 21 months to play with. Pretty sure I could cram all that stuff in. Perhaps the NWA Board of Directors is happy enough with this arrangement that they let WCW retain the NWA Championship longer than they did in real life? Maybe this even delays ECW's rise a little bit since Douglas won't have an NWA Championship to throw down? Flair may lose it from time to time, but it always ends up around his waist before long...

Until the time is right to scrap it. Patriot is only getting over to a certain extent because he can't cut a promo (much like Ice Train before him). The Dark Patriot thing gives him an out and sets up a special attraction feud to supplement NEW WCW Champion Ric Flair. Flair is once again on top of the world. WOOOO!

2a. I'm strongly leaning Flair, but Austin does work as an alternate choice. Quick storytime: I wasn't a "Stunning" Steve guy in real time. I'm not really sure why. He certainly seems like the sort of wrestler I'd gravitate towards. Truth is I don't even remember him all that much. Maybe he was on Saturday Night more than Worldwide and the Other One (Pro?) I watched on a weekly basis? Regardless of reason, I was always pretty meh on him. Viewed him as basically an 03-04 Randy Orton type. Austin seemed to always have a title. So even as a dumb mark I realized they were high on him. 

Years later when I went back and watched a lot of that cool pre-Hogan period of WCW I concocted this theory they were building Austin vs. Dustin to be the Flair vs. Dusty of the 90s. Think about it. Those two entered WCW around the same time as hot young prospects, one face the other heel. They had a lot of matches together. Won all the secondary titles save no TV for Dustin. Austin even won the US Title from Dustin. Taking it back to "Why Austin?" I did have Patriot dethrone Austin for the US Title. "Stunning" Steve can get revenge in this scenario with help from the Dark Patriot. Then the Austin/Dustin generational battle reaches its apex with...

3. Dustin Rhodes as Champ. You just know WCW planned to redo Flair/Rhodes at some point before Hogan came in and everything changed. Flair/Rhodes II would have been the most pre-Hogan WCW thing ever. I've already established Flair & Dustin feuded over the NWA Championship in this universe. Dustin came up just short in that battle. Maybe this is where we have Arn go back with Flair after their falling out? Yes, I like that. Arn turns on the Rhodes' (again) to reform the band. In fact, Dustin spends most of 94 feuding with the Horsemen in this universe.

Dustin was a similar case to Austin in that I personally was meh on him, but even as a dumb mark I knew WCW saw him as a big deal because he was always in the mix, winning titles and feuding with big names.....until 1994 hit. While that endless feud with Bunkhouse Buck and Colonel Parker's Stud Stable does have its fans, I am not among them. That feud killed Dustin as a 'star' to me and then he was gone. Feuding with the Horsemen keeps him strong in this universe until Slamboree '95. It HAS to be Slamboree (or Starrcade) because what better place for a second generation Rhodes to beat Flair (or a second generation "Flair") for the WCW Championship than on a show dedicated to the history of a company obsessed with its own history?

*Austin & Dustin stay in WCW a little longer in this Hogan-free universe. To avoid things getting too cluttered/wacky we'll have them leave for WWF at the end of 95. 

The Patriot was the only reason I watched the GWF. I would have preferred him as the WCW U.S. champion over Hacksaw.

Dec 6, 2022 1:00:12 GMT Ed said:

The Patriot was the only reason I watched the GWF. I would have preferred him as the WCW U.S. champion over Hacksaw.

He was THE guy in that fed. I barely remember anyone else tbh. Yeah, he would have made a better US Champ than Hacksaw for sure. Only thing Hacksaw had him over was name recognition. Patriot/Regal also should have been a much bigger deal. Even as a youngish Regal fanboy I couldn't believe they had him survive The Patriot. Seemed like a no brainer to do a Warrior/HTM finish there. 

Dec 6, 2022 1:06:28 GMT Baker said:

Dec 6, 2022 1:00:12 GMT Ed said:

The Patriot was the only reason I watched the GWF. I would have preferred him as the WCW U.S. champion over Hacksaw.

He was THE guy in that fed. I barely remember anyone else tbh. Yeah, he would have made a better US Champ than Hacksaw for sure. The only thing Hacksaw had him over was name recognition. Patriot/Regal also should have been a much bigger deal. Even as a youngish Regal fanboy I couldn't believe they had him survive The Patriot. Seemed like a no-brainer to do a Warrior/HTM finish there. 

Then again, if things didn't happen the way they did, MAYBE Austin doesn't get fired & have a chance to morph into Stone Cold.

1. Dustin Rhodes: May 95- September 95
2. Scott Norton: September 95- December 95
3. Sting: December 95- April 96
4. Ric Flair: April 96- July 96
5. Mr. Wonderful: July 96- August 96
6. Jeff Jarrett: August 96- December 96
7. The Giant- December 96- December 97?
Crow Sting: December 97?-July 98?
Goldberg: July 98?-??

1. Dustin dethrones Flair (or Austin) at Slamboree 95. He's booked as a Bret Hart-style fighting champion who takes on all comers. The Future with a link to the past leads WCW into the Nitro Era as their standard bearer when...

2. Scott Norton happens. You want to kick Nitro off with a bang. Hogan is still AWA in this universe and Hogan 2.0 (Flexy Lexy) is still in the midst of his first ballot Hall of Fame WWF career. So we get Norton dethroning Dustin because this world is way different. Ideally you'd want to have a babyface dethrone a heel champ here, but I didn't think of that beforehand, and don't feel like changing everything up this late in the game.

Anyway, Norton is much more established in this universe. He's been working a part time WCW schedule in between Japan tours since Spring 93. Always booked near the top of the card as a gatekeeper heel. He's wrestled all the greats- Sting, Patriot, Ice Train....all the greats! Teamed with Vader in the Masters of the Powerbomb after Sid left. They had high profile PPV matches against Sting & Hawk, Flair & Arn, and Cactus & Payne. Norton has been suspended a time or two to cover for his New Japan commitments. 

Story here is Vader was supposed to wrestle Dustin in the main event of the first Nitro until his backstage brawl with Orndorff got him fired. WCW came to a deal to bring Norton in full time with Norton's thought process being 'Nitro means more exposure, more money, more time at home.' WCW wrote Vader out by saying Norton attacked him backstage and took his spot in this match. The Flashman shocks the world by dethroning an unprepared Dustin (who wasn't drawing as well as expected) on the inaugural edition of Nitro.

In my old wrestling figure leagues (which this project is heavily based on) I always ended up booking Norton as a tough-as-nails badass main event babyface with super strength. Think Dr. Death in Watts UWF which consciously or not provided the template for how I booked Norton. But, again, I couldn't make it work here since I had to cram in Train, Patriot & Dustin. But fear not! Norton will still get his big badass babyface run. Just not yet. Norton holds the belt as Vader-lite for a few months until...

3. Sting dethrones him. You might think I've been neglecting The Stinger for shiny new toys in Ice Train, The Patriot, and Scott Norton. You'd be right! BUT it's not like Sting set the world on fire during his previous championship runs in 90 & 92. AND he's still getting the title two years earlier here than he did in real life WCW. By this point he's established as The Franchise, Mr. WCW (at least to non-Flair fans). He spent the last year and a half as a sort of Undertakerish special attraction. Sting/Vader and Sting/Flair happened every six months or so in some capacity (tags and the like) or another. Sting had most recently been in the real life Hogan role battling the Dungeon of Doom because you just know I am still going all on in The DoD. Maybe we even get a Sting/Sabu PPV match out of it. We definitely get Sting/Sullivan and Sting/Morrus PPV matches out of it. Anyway, Sting wins World War III and regains the WCW Championship by dethroning Norton in a Sting/Vader-lite match at Starrcade 95. Just realized this whole arc pretty much mirrors Bret's 95 WWF run and that just seems right to me.

Sting wrestles a tag w/ Partner vs. Norton & Partner at the January Clash, wins the rematch with Norton at SuperBrawl, and continues his war with the Dungeon by successfully defending against Loch Ness(!) at Uncensored before dropping the title to...

4. Ric Flair on the 4/22 Nitro* after Arn & Benoit interfere. As the Horsemen celebrate MR. WONDERFUL's wonderful theme hits. Horsemen look like they've seen a ghost as Wonderful returns to take credit for running Pillman out of town and vows vengeance on the remaining Horsemen.

Flair's run is strictly a transitional one. He wins the rematch with Sting at Slamboree while Orndorff defeats Benoit on the undercard. Great American Bash we can still run Arn & Flair vs. MONGO & Greene with the same finish while Orndorff defeats  Ugh! I booked myself into a corner and now I have to lose either the MONGO swerve or Benoit/Sullivan and both of those options suck. Whatever. The end game is....

5. Mr. Wonderful defeats Flair for the WCW Championship at Bash At The Beach to payoff a storyline that began all the way back in December. Wonderful is healthy enough to return in this (better) world and the idea is the WCW Universe embraced his over the top MR. WONDERFUL persona the same way my friends and I did. 

BATB also sees The Outsiders and their Third Man defeat Sting...Norton & Ice Train. Man, starting to feel the effects of not bringing in Hogan, Savage & Luger. Oh, btw, the Third Man is...

6. "DOUBLE J" JEFF JARRETT! Oh yeah! A Wild Slapnuts appeared! He dethrones Wonderful the next month at some non-Hog Wild PPV because free shows are stupid from a promotional standpoint, I never got the whole motorcycle thing to begin with, and Orndorff can ride off into the sunset having accomplished his goal of making the Horsemen's life a living hell. 

Story I heard in real time from a friend of a friend with the inside scoopz was Double J would be the Third Man and he'd be pushed as the singles star while Razor & Diesel would be a tag team. That's what happened! Only with stupid Hogan in the role Double J was born to play. Here we'll do things the proper way with Double J leading The Invasion while The Outsiders feud primarily with FIRE & ICE (remember, Norton & Train are much more established in this universe) and the Steiners with the always dangerous Harlem Heat lurking on the periphery as the fourth wheel in this stacked tag division.

Double J and his NWO win War Games (with Kid as the 4th man), JJ defeats Sting at Havoc, let's go with Arn at WW3, and gets dethroned in a squash at Starrcade to a huge pop by....

*7. The Giant. Look, if I wasn't so intent on cramming EVERY GOOD WCW IDEA I EVER HAD into this series of posts The Giant would have won the title way back in April just like in real life. Then he beats everybody for almost two years. BUT I just had to get in that Flair-Wonderful-Jarrett stretch of champs I've been sitting on for like twenty years. I'm not sure what kind of tricks I could pull to postpone The Giant for this long. Maybe have him debut six months later? Have Sullivan sell him to Flair to be The Horsemen's bodyguard during the Orndorff feud which creates all sort of friction between the involved parties? Just slowly build him up with squashes on all the shows (many of them handicap matches) a la Goldberg? Have him turn on the Dungeon and fight their increasingly wacky band of freaks? Idk. But I do know The Giant is now The Man. He became WCW's savior by dethroning that rascally slapnuts and now the rookie sensation is on top of the world. 

I'm gonna end it here. I never cared much about WCW in real time after 96 and this universe is so different it's hard to predict where things go from here. There are so many options. You can finally bring Hogan, Savage, and Lex in. Does the Screwjob still go down leading to Bret coming in? Gut reaction is Sting embraces his dark side by going Crow to end The Giant's one year reign at Starrcade 97. Then Goldberg happens around BATB 98. But anything is possible this far in the future. 

EDIT: Forgot to mention the US Championship basically becomes The Patriot's vanity title for 18 months in this universe assuming he stays. He loses it from time to time, but always regains it within a month or so. He's also on the frontlines of the WCW babyface brigade in their feuds with the Horsemen, Dungeon, and especially NWO. Could easily be inserted into the Bash At The Beach six man along with Mr. Wonderful in place of Fire & Ice or the 1996 War Games match.

Forgot to give a synopsis of The Giant's year long* title reign. He's a babyface leading the charge for Team WCW against the invading NWO while taking on all comers; NWO, WCW loyalists, and cruiserweights (on Nitro) alike as a fighting champ...a 7 foot 400+ pound Best In The World type.

*Unless Hogan & Luger join WCW in 1997. If so, I feel like you'd have to belt them up given their massive success elsewhere. Giant can beat Savage though.

Final List of Rebooked WCW Champions (No Hogan Edition)

Vader: 12/30/92 to 10/24/93
Cactus Jack: 10/24/93 to 12/27/93
Vader: 12/27/93 to 2/20/94
Ice Train: 2/20/94 to 7/17/94
Vader: 7/17/94 to 9/18/94
The Patriot: 9/18/94 to 3/19/95
Ric Flair*: 3/19/95 to 5/21/95
Dustin Rhodes: 5/21/95 to 9/4/95
Scott Norton: 9/4/95 to 12/30/95
Sting: 12/30/95 to 4/22/96
Ric Flair: 4/22/96 to 7/7/96
Mr. Wonderful: 7/7/96 to 8/11/96
Jeff Jarrett: 8/11/96 to 12/29/96
The Giant: 12/29/96 to 12/28/97?
Sting?: 12/28/97? to 7/12/98?
Goldberg?: 7/12/98? to ??  

*Decided to scrap my alternate idea of "Stunning" Steve as WCW Champ. The Austin/Dustin storyline is good. But the Flair/Dustin story is even better.