Not sure if people are following the antiwork movement, but starting to see some results from it.  Outside of the great resignation and move to $15 a hour by most national chains to attract workers, seeing A LOT of people learning that the way they are treated in low income work is actually wage theft.  Managers taking tips, making people sit in the job sight while it is not busy off the clock, fining employees for having their phones or being late, threatening to punish people who discuss wages, making people clock out for 15 minute breaks, and shaving hours off of work time through rounding down and more people are learning are illegal and can be reported to the labor board.  

Also seeing more and more workers start to shift their attitudes about jobs.  Less and less will workers tolerate bosses who punish them, opting instead to just quit.  Same for bosses who exploit workers by demanding they check everyday to see if they are working the following day or not and demanding they have their phones on at all times incase they need to be called into work.  People are also going to hiring interviews with average wages for their jobs in their area and walking when they get lowball offers.  When people are rewarded with extra work for the same pay, they are quitting.  As are workers who are told to do their job, plus cover the workload of unfilled positions without extra pay.

Right now is the largest workers right push the country has seen since the McCarthy era started in the 50's.  

The right is screaming about this, which will get louder next year as interest rates rise, but this is the free market in action.  Workers having more choices means they can choose to just not work for lower wages if others places will pay them more for similar work.  Inflation is up in many areas, but not so much the areas that the lower classes use, and it is still far, far lower than the wage increases the lower classes are seeing.  That new sports car, yacht, or decorated mansion will be a lot more expensive, but these are not things the average American can afford to buy.

Ah yes the classic "on call" status even though we ain't salary bitch.

Seeing a lot of shakeups in work environments right now. It's especially crucial for attracting those under 35 because while my job offers a decent "second chance" at making an okay living for those that didn't achieve anything by that age, it's not enough to get the younger people. We're really looking at a Japan situation aren't we? Especially with most of our hatred for immigrants.

Tell me you're a whiny, lazy bum without telling me you're a whiny, lazy bum.

OMG WHY DOES NO ONE WANT TO WORK FOR HALF OF WHAT MC DONALD'S PAYS!!! PEOPLE ARE SO LAZY!!!

Jan 14, 2022 22:39:29 GMT c said:

OMG WHY DOES NO ONE WANT TO WORK FOR HALF OF WHAT MC DONALD'S PAYS!!! PEOPLE ARE SO LAZY!!!

Who makes half of what McDonalds makes?

I applaud any efforts to hold employers to account, but I'm not sure this is it.
I have had a flick through the anti work forum and there are defi itely some valid complaints, but a great deal of the posts are just people agitating for socialism.

I have been a union member tradesman at the working class.
I have been a business owner.

What I can tell you without a second of hesitation is that if we ever had a communist revolution these agitators who think they're going to be writing poems or painting signs will be the very first put against the wall.

The antiwork movement is a 1930's style labor movement so of course they will be pro-socialism.  But propose your current labor laws in the US and it will be considered communism for lazy self-entitled workers.

Then again, American companies are trying to get your people to roll back all your labor protections to US standards as for some unknown reason, the right views Australia as a potential Utopia they can mold into a "free" country.  Why they are spending so much astroturfing you to fuel a populistic rise.  

This is one of the few areas of life where I consider myself an expert.
I was raised blue collar and only have a high school education and worked my way off the floor and into financial independence.

The anti-work movement is wrong.
Already I've highlighted that there are bosses who take advantage of workers and nobody should work for them.
Much of the asshole behaviours come from middle managers looking to make a name for themselves.

As I mentioned though the anti work movement is wrong.
Hard work doesn't always lead to reward but reward doesn't come without hard work.
When I was working I took every opportunity to learn something that came my way, not to be a better employee but because I enjoy learning and was constantly seeking to better myself. The better I became the better the opportunities that come my way.

I still walk into factories and speak to electricians who look at me with my laptop and tell me they wish the could learn to program but the company they work for won't send them on a course... I always tell them, I have done zero courses and everything I know I pretty much learnt on the job or in my own my time.
People want other people to make their lives better and it won't happen.

Most of these anti work people are losers.

Dude they should start a political party and get your attention with Blink 182

"work sucks, I know"

That's a slogan for me. Do it in the Obama style color thing only with Luke Harper. I think we already have one ready to run for office.

🤯 sident 2028 - Shades of the rent is too damn high party. Ded srs at least become mayor.

Well I mean maybe people would like work if we have the same communist systems that Australia has here in America.

I mean, most people would love to get an entry level corporate job paying 12 an hour without having a four year degree and 2 years experience. But we are told that entry level jobs having no college requirements or related work experience is what communists want and we should stop being lazy and quit complaining.

Hell many corporate jobs in America still try to get away with just not paying people at all for the first year, claiming the job is worth the experience alone it provides.  Unpaid internships are still very common in some fields.   

Want to learn to program, why not work for free for two years 60 hours a week?  Only lazy people would deny the value in this deal.

Movements like this are interesting, and probably more importantly is where they seem to originate from. 

Some of the most privileged places in the world, seem to be a hot-bed for continual conversations about diversity and equality, or apparent lack there of, etc And what is even more interesting on this subject is, in regards to r/antiwork - an internal survey of 1,592 subreddit members found that 33.4% identified as socialists, 33.2% identified as social democrats and progressives, 16.1% identified as anarchists, and 14.4% did not identify as left-wing. The survey found that most members were male and live in North America. The survey also found that 50% of members still work full-time.

Another survey backs up the claims this is primarily a Young Men in American thing, with 76.52% of those surveyed being from the United States and 49.23% representing those between 25-34 years old. 18-24 year olds represented 20% and those 35-44, 20%. The overwhelming majority were male - making up 60%. antiwork.uk/2021/12/05/r-antiwork-survey-results/#age

And I'd be interested to see exactly what the real demographics represent - as one criticism is (at least on the surface) r/antiwork screams of underlining male, white privilege. And I would suggest, as it originates from an online movement and as the numbers show - we're primarily talking about Generation Z.

I do however, agree with the criticism of the Hustle/Grind Culture - that influencers use to pollute social media with. Primarily on Instagram, LinkedIn, TikTok, etc that promotes zero downtime, wearing burn out as a badge of honour and looking slick in front a Maserati while dropping a line like " I don't have a 9-5, I have a 24/7 " that sort of culture is toxic. 

But I wonder how much of this sort of stuff, r/antiwork that is, is really driven by the old, quarter-life crisis - which was sort of a 2000's buzzword/trend. 15 years ago, you weren't depressed - you were having a quarter-life crisis ( a period of insecurity, doubt and disappointment surrounding your career, relationships and financial situation ) 

What antiwork is, is basically a reaction to the work culture in the US. To get a job you need related experience and to this date 43% of internships by for-profit companies are unpaid. To get a job almost everyone requires a four year degree, which is a massive cost for most people who do not find a way to prove they are diverse enough for a scholarship. To even rent in the US you must prove that the cost of your rent is no more than 30% of your contracted income. At $8 to $10 you will need about 60 hours a week to pay that. But more and more jobs for poor young people are only 30 hours a week, as then you do not have to provide benefits. So people work two 30 hour jobs, to get the cash to be able to afford just to live.

As you try to balance these two jobs, both jobs will start to berate you for not allowing them to schedule you last minute as low income jobs expect every hour you are not at work for them, to be ready to be called in. Also they refuse to give you fixed hours so week to week you change your shifts so you can avoid being double booked. If you cannot change your shift you will get written up and eventually fired. Most low paid workers are not given time off without a medical note. Even with a medical note you will likely be punished on your fire, if not fired.

Want to get out of these low income jobs? In the US almost all applications now are handled by computer software. You fill out your information and are put into a pool of potential hires. Do not have a four year degree while applying to be a school janitor? You are filtered out of the priority pool. Do not have 5 years work experience? Same deal join the losers in pool two. Do not have either college or experience, welcome to the delete folder. If you are lucky, at some point in the next 10 years you will be contacted. Seriously, I know people getting offers from jobs they applied to over 10 years ago.

Should you land an interview, you then have to again risk getting fired or find someone to cover your shift. If you tell your boss in the US that you are looking for a new job, many will just let you go as you are not a dedicated enough employee. Should you do well in that interview, you likely have two more on average before getting hired, which means more time you need off work. Should you get fired for looking for a better job, you get no severance.

This is why people are pissed off. And yeah this is mostly an American thing as we are the last labor market in a supposedly first world country where this sort of shit is even legal. But we are told if we wish to implement laws like Australia, the UK or even Canada has we will move right into a militia ruled communist society. Start making bosses have a valid reason to fire employees, that is it, breadlines nationwide. Increase min wage to $8 federally, hyperinflation and burning cash for warmth. Give workers free healthcare like every other major capitalist country, and the entire healthcare field will quit their jobs.

It is not about being lazy, it is seeing hard work actually pay off, because now no matter how hard you work in many places, you do not see anything from that work. People who work hard for 20 years often see entry level employees start in the same position making more than do, while having less assigned work. Meanwhile corporate profits continue to soar year after year to record breaking levels, while you salary stays frozen at cost of living increases if you are lucky.

And sure you can move into career where effort is better rewarded but with tens of millions of workers in this situation, there is not enough jobs where hard work does lead to more cash. If there were suddenly 20 million more workers in the trade industry for instance people would getting paid less on average as jobs can offer less and less cash as supply of workers will be higher. And given the worker shortage as it is, just creating your own business is not really an option unless you have the startup cash, which most low income workers lack.

But I know everyone starts their career with no support. No one has a place to live at 16, walks 10 miles to work, and mows lawns to put down 100k in startup cash to start their own business so clearly it is the easiest thing in the world to do.

Also Chamber of Commerce says without immigration restarting, in particular from South America, the US economy will start to falter and inflation will continue to rise. Basically unless the US labor market as illegal immigrants that can be hired for less than minimum wage the economy cannot be expected to function as it has in the past.

///

Also I mean can people really tell me that the US does not have labor issues when shit like this appears in job postings...

Jan 15, 2022 3:06:12 GMT c said:

Well I mean maybe people would like work if we have the same communist systems that Australia has here in America.

I mean, most people would love to get an entry level corporate job paying 12 an hour without having a four year degree and 2 years experience. But we are told that entry level jobs having no college requirements or related work experience is what communists want and we should stop being lazy and quit complaining.

Hell many corporate jobs in America still try to get away with just not paying people at all for the first year, claiming the job is worth the experience alone it provides.  Unpaid internships are still very common in some fields.   

Want to learn to program, why not work for free for two years 60 hours a week?  Only lazy people would deny the value in this deal.

People don't get the life they don't work for...
Doesn't mean they will get if they work for it though, but why not have a shot.
You know nothing of working over here and how hard it is to get to the next level.

Jan 15, 2022 0:32:09 GMT iNCY said:

This is one of the few areas of life where I consider myself an expert.
I was raised blue collar and only have a high school education and worked my way off the floor and into financial independence.

The anti-work movement is wrong.
Already I've highlighted that there are bosses who take advantage of workers and nobody should work for them.
Much of the asshole behaviours come from middle managers looking to make a name for themselves.

As I mentioned though the anti work movement is wrong.
Hard work doesn't always lead to reward but reward doesn't come without hard work.
When I was working I took every opportunity to learn something that came my way, not to be a better employee but because I enjoy learning and was constantly seeking to better myself. The better I became the better the opportunities that come my way.

I still walk into factories and speak to electricians who look at me with my laptop and tell me they wish the could learn to program but the company they work for won't send them on a course... I always tell them, I have done zero courses and everything I know I pretty much learnt on the job or in my own my time.
People want other people to make their lives better and it won't happen.

Most of these anti work people are losers.

It is true that many people want other people to help make their lives better. They want the easy way out. Sure. Is that lazy or efficient? Guess it depends who you talk to.

The flipside is that people don't want to, or can't, spend hours of their free time upskilling themselves to maybe get a better paying job. After all, if you're working 50 hours a week, with 5 vacation days a year, where are you going to fit in the time to learn a new skill enough to be able to pass a job interview? People have to find time to eat, sleep and live their lives. Does that make them losers? I guess you are if you are not willing to become a work slave to "chase the American dream".

I'm not saying you shouldn't work hard, but I can understand why people don't wan't to spend their free time (assuming they have that free time to spend) working hard if it's only "a shot" at a better life. After all, it could be a very long shot.

Jan 15, 2022 10:29:44 GMT Emperor said:

Jan 15, 2022 0:32:09 GMT iNCY said:

This is one of the few areas of life where I consider myself an expert.
I was raised blue collar and only have a high school education and worked my way off the floor and into financial independence.

The anti-work movement is wrong.
Already I've highlighted that there are bosses who take advantage of workers and nobody should work for them.
Much of the asshole behaviours come from middle managers looking to make a name for themselves.

As I mentioned though the anti work movement is wrong.
Hard work doesn't always lead to reward but reward doesn't come without hard work.
When I was working I took every opportunity to learn something that came my way, not to be a better employee but because I enjoy learning and was constantly seeking to better myself. The better I became the better the opportunities that come my way.

I still walk into factories and speak to electricians who look at me with my laptop and tell me they wish the could learn to program but the company they work for won't send them on a course... I always tell them, I have done zero courses and everything I know I pretty much learnt on the job or in my own my time.
People want other people to make their lives better and it won't happen.

Most of these anti work people are losers.

It is true that many people want other people to help make their lives better. They want the easy way out. Sure. Is that lazy or efficient? Guess it depends who you talk to.

The flipside is that people don't want to, or can't, spend hours of their free time upskilling themselves to maybe get a better paying job. After all, if you're working 50 hours a week, with 5 vacation days a year, where are you going to fit in the time to learn a new skill enough to be able to pass a job interview? People have to find time to eat, sleep and live their lives. Does that make them losers? I guess you are if you are not willing to become a work slave to "chase the American dream".

I'm not saying you shouldn't work hard, but I can understand why people don't wan't to spend their free time (assuming they have that free time to spend) working hard if it's only "a shot" at a better life. After all, it could be a very long shot.

Absolutely, it's a question of whether people want to do better than the people standing beside them.
I never get why people expect more than others without doing more, if you don't expect it that's fine.

Working 50hrs a week leaves more than enough time to accumulate new skills in your own time of you were so inlclined, if you weren't, that is also fine.

I have lived and worked amongst so many who have surprised me with the mindset, which they apparently hold onto passionately, that "it sucked for me so it must suck and continue to suck for others".

What's not so surprising in retrospect is most of them espousing this mindset are relatively privileged white men. Some cite their own hardships and hard work, but I think it's easy from the first person perspective to be blind to the support and advantages they also likely had from the start and along the way.

The last time I recall it happening was our dentist asking about student loan forgiveness and Occupy Wall Street...

While he had me in a very vulnerable position, he asked me what I thought about student loan forgiveness. Never wanting to engage in small talk at the dentist, much less loaded politics talk while someone has metal instruments in my mouth, I tried to keep it simple and divert. I reply well, college has exponentially become absurdly expensive, so I'm on board with anything to bring tuition back to reality and also not have student loans instantly ruining kids' lives.

Suddenly livid dentist asks if I went to college and had student loans.
Me: Yes, and yes.
Dentist: Are they paid off?
Me: Fortunately, yes.
Dentist: But, but, but... How would you feel if someone else's loans were forgiven after you've repaid yours!?!?
Me: Fine? It's no imposition on me or my current circumstance in life. So... @whocares?
Dentist: Well, I had to work to pay off my debts from dental school... So if I had, everyone else should to!
Me (thinking to myself): You mean like how freed slaves were probably like slavery should still be a thing because if I was enslaved then the next generation at minimum should be enslaved too?
Dentist (cont'd): Especially those liberal arts do-nothings. Remember when those Occupy Wall Street assholes came to Pittsburgh!? Well, my son and I were downtown at the time, and I was PISSED and had to do something to prove a point to my son about what's right and wrong with this generation of losers. So I go right up to one of these sad sacks just sitting in the grass with a sign and ask, "Did you go to college?" Guy says yes. 8 ask, "What'd you nmajor in?" Guy says philosophy. HA! I ask, "So then what do you do? I mean, when you're not doing this?" Guy says, "I'm an artist. " HA! And it's no wonder they can't repay their loans!
Me: So you don't like art?
Dentist: Not really. Definitely not all art...

Anyway, since I kept getting interrupted while drafting this post, I mostly totally forget my point. To NATH45's point, I think it's a good think generally privileged white males are awakening to Antiwork in America because they're the next most influential demographic after the wealthy elite and corporations (which I assume are effectively one and the same) driving culture norm shifts, socioeconomic policy, consumerism, etc. But that's purely a gut feeling, anecdotal guess.

As a priveleged white male, I definitely am onboard with a Mr. Robot and/or Apocalypse-type event to reset everyone to equal even if it makes life a lot "worse" or "harder" for all of the current haves. The problem is humans suck. There will always be evil, greedy, selfish, power hungry humans ready and driven to exploit to rise above and subjugate and otherize their fellow humans.

Slave and serfs before them should have learned skills. That surely would have made their masters see their importance and start to pay them.

I find it really hilarious that so many people are absolutely certain the root of poverty is just lazy people. Like academic lit is just full of volumes on the laziness of people and how people just need to work hard and learn one or two skills to magically change their life and socioeconomic position. And like that only these people with the answers have been able to figure this fact out despite 4000 years of human civilization showing otherwise.

Should put this theory to the test and tax personal gifts and estates at 100%.  If you raise your kids to be hard working no need to pass on any wealth.  Nor to give wealth away when this knowledge is all people really need.  If hard work alone is what is needed, then why are we protecting these practices at all?

To extend this as well, maybe business owners cannot afford to hire workers should just work harder themselves or learn a trade instead rather than complaining about how no one wants to work anyway. Stop being lazy and get a real job maybe.

Jan 15, 2022 20:24:26 GMT 🤯 said:

I have lived and worked amongst so many who have surprised me with the mindset, which they apparently hold onto passionately, that "it sucked for me so it must suck and continue to suck for others".

What's not so surprising in retrospect is most of them espousing this mindset are relatively privileged white men. Some cite their own hardships and hard work, but I think it's easy from the first person perspective to be blind to the support and advantages they also likely had from the start and along the way.

The last time I recall it happening was our dentist asking about student loan forgiveness and Occupy Wall Street...

While he had me in a very vulnerable position, he asked me what I thought about student loan forgiveness. Never wanting to engage in small talk at the dentist, much less loaded politics talk while someone has metal instruments in my mouth, I tried to keep it simple and divert. I reply well, college has exponentially become absurdly expensive, so I'm on board with anything to bring tuition back to reality and also not have student loans instantly ruining kids' lives.

Suddenly livid dentist asks if I went to college and had student loans.
Me: Yes, and yes.
Dentist: Are they paid off?
Me: Fortunately, yes.
Dentist: But, but, but... How would you feel if someone else's loans were forgiven after you've repaid yours!?!?
Me: Fine? It's no imposition on me or my current circumstance in life. So... @whocares?
Dentist: Well, I had to work to pay off my debts from dental school... So if I had, everyone else should to!
Me (thinking to myself): You mean like how freed slaves were probably like slavery should still be a thing because if I was enslaved then the next generation at minimum should be enslaved too?
Dentist (cont'd): Especially those liberal arts do-nothings. Remember when those Occupy Wall Street assholes came to Pittsburgh!? Well, my son and I were downtown at the time, and I was PISSED and had to do something to prove a point to my son about what's right and wrong with this generation of losers. So I go right up to one of these sad sacks just sitting in the grass with a sign and ask, "Did you go to college?" Guy says yes. 8 ask, "What'd you nmajor in?" Guy says philosophy. HA! I ask, "So then what do you do? I mean, when you're not doing this?" Guy says, "I'm an artist. " HA! And it's no wonder they can't repay their loans!
Me: So you don't like art?
Dentist: Not really. Definitely not all art...

Anyway, since I kept getting interrupted while drafting this post, I mostly totally forget my point. To NATH45's point, I think it's a good think generally privileged white males are awakening to Antiwork in America because they're the next most influential demographic after the wealthy elite and corporations (which I assume are effectively one and the same) driving culture norm shifts, socioeconomic policy, consumerism, etc. But that's purely a gut feeling, anecdotal guess.

As a priveleged white male, I definitely am onboard with a Mr. Robot and/or Apocalypse-type event to reset everyone to equal even if it makes life a lot "worse" or "harder" for all of the current haves. The problem is humans suck. There will always be evil, greedy, selfish, power hungry humans ready and driven to exploit to rise above and subjugate and otherize their fellow humans.

I'm going to do my best to ignore the it irrational bleatings of c but I believe that loan forgiveness is a terrible idea.

If I was in charge I would completely shake up the higher education system. I would encourage business and institutions to take on cadets and put them through college in a combination of classroom and workplace learning. I would have this be a paid position for the cadet and the cost of college is 100% deductible to the business.

This would work because we start to balance the number of people in college against the jobs that actually exist.
I remember when the show CSI started there were tens of thousands of people studying criminal pathology and about a handful of jobs per year nationally.

People are not entitled to a college education, if they want one that is great, but let it be in an area that allows the degree to be paid for, otherwise the wages in that field must rise.

Here's the flip side of a blue collar guy like me. I started work at 17yo I paid all my own trade school, bought all my own tools and paid for fuel to drive an hour across town every day. This was the cost of my education, you don't see people in the streets demanding this is paid for them.

Why should society pay for a degree that someone doesn't even use themself? It makes no sense whatsoever.

If college debt ends up forgiven we will just channel everyone into college and once everyone had a degree then essentially nobody has a degree.

Jan 15, 2022 23:08:09 GMT c said:

Slave and serfs before them should have learned skills. That surely would have made their masters see their importance and start to pay them.

I find it really hilarious that so many people are absolutely certain the root of poverty is just lazy people. Like academic lit is just full of volumes on the laziness of people and how people just need to work hard and learn one or two skills to magically change their life and socioeconomic position. And like that only these people with the answers have been able to figure this fact out despite 4000 years of human civilization showing otherwise.

Should put this theory to the test and tax personal gifts and estates at 100%.  If you raise your kids to be hard working no need to pass on any wealth.  Nor to give wealth away when this knowledge is all people really need.  If hard work alone is what is needed, then why are we protecting these practices at all?

I say tax inheritance and 90% doesn't scare me.

Let's see if I can make this straight forward:
Socialism: the accumulation of wealth is greed
Socialism: distributing that wealth to those who ant a share of that wealth without working for it is not greed.


I'm am hardcore about the meritocracy, if we don't rediscover the value of merit out society won't be here in 25 years.
Socialists talk about billionaires, but they need everyone's money to make their dreams reality.
Anyone who has anything nice in their life has to give it up so lazy and stupid people can have what you have.

I agree with iNCY, at some point college/university education needs to align with the job market.. and reality.

And if the Australian landscape is anything to go by, in many places 'blue collar' workers are out-performing their white collar neighbours in terms of income and financial independence.

The Arts degree is nice, as a the History degree. And I'm sure it would be super interesting studying either. But I'm not sure how the vast majority of those who study in these fields will ever utilise them fully. With vast opportunities in trade, and to an extent in business administration, leadership and development - and I'm sure countless other fields that only require an over average IQ - the energy should be spent directing young people to the realities of the real world.

Jan 15, 2022 23:55:18 GMT iNCY said:

Jan 15, 2022 20:24:26 GMT 🤯 said:

I have lived and worked amongst so many who have surprised me with the mindset, which they apparently hold onto passionately, that "it sucked for me so it must suck and continue to suck for others".

What's not so surprising in retrospect is most of them espousing this mindset are relatively privileged white men. Some cite their own hardships and hard work, but I think it's easy from the first person perspective to be blind to the support and advantages they also likely had from the start and along the way.

The last time I recall it happening was our dentist asking about student loan forgiveness and Occupy Wall Street...

While he had me in a very vulnerable position, he asked me what I thought about student loan forgiveness. Never wanting to engage in small talk at the dentist, much less loaded politics talk while someone has metal instruments in my mouth, I tried to keep it simple and divert. I reply well, college has exponentially become absurdly expensive, so I'm on board with anything to bring tuition back to reality and also not have student loans instantly ruining kids' lives.

Suddenly livid dentist asks if I went to college and had student loans.
Me: Yes, and yes.
Dentist: Are they paid off?
Me: Fortunately, yes.
Dentist: But, but, but... How would you feel if someone else's loans were forgiven after you've repaid yours!?!?
Me: Fine? It's no imposition on me or my current circumstance in life. So... @whocares?
Dentist: Well, I had to work to pay off my debts from dental school... So if I had, everyone else should to!
Me (thinking to myself): You mean like how freed slaves were probably like slavery should still be a thing because if I was enslaved then the next generation at minimum should be enslaved too?
Dentist (cont'd): Especially those liberal arts do-nothings. Remember when those Occupy Wall Street assholes came to Pittsburgh!? Well, my son and I were downtown at the time, and I was PISSED and had to do something to prove a point to my son about what's right and wrong with this generation of losers. So I go right up to one of these sad sacks just sitting in the grass with a sign and ask, "Did you go to college?" Guy says yes. 8 ask, "What'd you nmajor in?" Guy says philosophy. HA! I ask, "So then what do you do? I mean, when you're not doing this?" Guy says, "I'm an artist. " HA! And it's no wonder they can't repay their loans!
Me: So you don't like art?
Dentist: Not really. Definitely not all art...

Anyway, since I kept getting interrupted while drafting this post, I mostly totally forget my point. To NATH45's point, I think it's a good think generally privileged white males are awakening to Antiwork in America because they're the next most influential demographic after the wealthy elite and corporations (which I assume are effectively one and the same) driving culture norm shifts, socioeconomic policy, consumerism, etc. But that's purely a gut feeling, anecdotal guess.

As a priveleged white male, I definitely am onboard with a Mr. Robot and/or Apocalypse-type event to reset everyone to equal even if it makes life a lot "worse" or "harder" for all of the current haves. The problem is humans suck. There will always be evil, greedy, selfish, power hungry humans ready and driven to exploit to rise above and subjugate and otherize their fellow humans.

I'm going to do my best to ignore the it irrational bleatings of c but I believe that loan forgiveness is a terrible idea.

If I was in charge I would completely shake up the higher education system. I would encourage business and institutions to take on cadets and put them through college in a combination of classroom and workplace learning. I would have this be a paid position for the cadet and the cost of college is 100% deductible to the business.

This would work because we start to balance the number of people in college against the jobs that actually exist.
I remember when the show CSI started there were tens of thousands of people studying criminal pathology and about a handful of jobs per year nationally.

People are not entitled to a college education, if they want one that is great, but let it be in an area that allows the degree to be paid for, otherwise the wages in that field must rise.

Here's the flip side of a blue collar guy like me. I started work at 17yo I paid all my own trade school, bought all my own tools and paid for fuel to drive an hour across town every day. This was the cost of my education, you don't see people in the streets demanding this is paid for them.

Why should society pay for a degree that someone doesn't even use themself? It makes no sense whatsoever.

If college debt ends up forgiven we will just channel everyone into college and once everyone had a degree then essentially nobody has a degree.

I don't see the problem of "once everyone had a degree then essentially nobody has a degree" - especially if the degrees are free?

Bold bit feels a little like apples to oranges. Your costs seem more tied to tangible products. Tools have a clear cost. Fuel and/or mileage have a real cost. These equate more to college textbooks, and perhaps even room and board. Not the tuition part, the learning itself. I'd be on board with forgiving all debts for tuition aspects. Feel free to rape kids for overpriced books and apartments though. There's more logical free market choices around that (similar to how on the trades side you could buy shittier quality or old used tools). Anyway...

As much as I love your idea for going forward, it has zero bearing on the existing debts and their forgiveness.

What's the negative of forgiving the crippling existing debts now? Colleges are so incredibly predatory and probably absolutely in cahoots with the lenders behind college loans. At least in America. Anyway...

Are you saying college debts prop up the economy? Why does forgiveness mean someone suddenly pays some tab? Who's truly impacted if lenders are just left holding the bag? I mean truly, since history indicates lenders will just challenge policy until they're satisfied.

This reminds me of the Eternals conflict. Is a sacrifice now worth the blank slate to benefit billions-fold more people?

Really just seems like a debt, at least as amassed to date, defended by people who are whether intentionally or not stuck in a "sucked for me so has to continue sucking for others" mindsets.

Although I didn't have lingering student loans, I do think paying them off is a mistake. You wanna clean the slate, fine, but make it across the board in the form of a stimmy for those that don't owe taxes. Otherwise fuck off.

I say that as someone who wasted daddie's money in college. Had I been forced to work to pay my way through school you'd better believe I would've either found something else or wouldn't have dicked around since the money was coming from me. I still waste hella money on food and stuff these days, but I also have a respect for it at least since I paid for everything.

I dunno if it has any relevance to anything but I often found because I lacked direction in any way that I opted to try paths that "guaranteed" me success. All throughout school (graduated in 03) they beat it into our heads we had to go to college. Basically only the disabled kids and those who weren't "book smart" were pushed towards the trades. I sensed a very high level of arrogance surrounding college vs. that type of work. So I went to college because it's what you do. Not because I wanted to do anything really... just knew it was necessary. And as such I floundered because I had no goal and simply wanted a degree to have one. Failure #1.

I also wanted to make a career of the military. Not because I had some respect or allegiance to my country or even surface level wanted to kill brown people... I just saw it as an "easy" path. Failure #2. Both of which I documented in FF wasteland.

The job I'm doing now I actually really enjoy. So much so that it's slowly becoming a serious interest of mine. Self teaching myself lots of handy man work and other minor maintenance stuff. Where I am today vs. 6 years ago is night and day. Most people in my spot don't care at all. And it shows. I just like being productive in this way and if I had this drive when I was 18, maybe I could've made something of myself. In this way it doesn't feel like work. I think a lot of people, especially dudes, are aimless and jobs are just gigs. And when the pay is shit and you have no future, yeah ain't nobody trying to do anything but minimum effort.

I haven't visited the sub or done any research on this stuff, but it's something I've always suspected of myself and those in this segment. No war, no purpose, just perpetually as Sam said... reading (watching) stories about better men. Seriously I've been contemplating taking side classes in HVAC and other things in that wheelhouse, not necessarily to do work... but to expand my current knowledge and perhaps if things don't work out here at the po in maint. maybe I won't be completely hopeless and can find something to do with myself rather than a Smith and Wesson exit strategy. I'm sure this posts is gonna make 0% sense though.

Jan 16, 2022 0:02:45 GMT iNCY said:

Jan 15, 2022 23:08:09 GMT c said:

Slave and serfs before them should have learned skills. That surely would have made their masters see their importance and start to pay them.

I find it really hilarious that so many people are absolutely certain the root of poverty is just lazy people. Like academic lit is just full of volumes on the laziness of people and how people just need to work hard and learn one or two skills to magically change their life and socioeconomic position. And like that only these people with the answers have been able to figure this fact out despite 4000 years of human civilization showing otherwise.

Should put this theory to the test and tax personal gifts and estates at 100%.  If you raise your kids to be hard working no need to pass on any wealth.  Nor to give wealth away when this knowledge is all people really need.  If hard work alone is what is needed, then why are we protecting these practices at all?

I say tax inheritance and 90% doesn't scare me.

Let's see if I can make this straight forward:
Socialism: the accumulation of wealth is greed
Socialism: distributing that wealth to those who ant a share of that wealth without working for it is not greed.


I'm am hardcore about the meritocracy, if we don't rediscover the value of merit out society won't be here in 25 years.
Socialists talk about billionaires, but they need everyone's money to make their dreams reality.
Anyone who has anything nice in their life has to give it up so lazy and stupid people can have what you have.

And what is your definition of a meritocracy?  Because in the US it is taking one big risk often stealing another's work and getting rich or being born rich parents and just not losing your money.  

Let's do the top 5 here:

Bezos, Musk, Gates, Zuckerberg, Buffet.  

Bezos started Amazon with 300k giving to him from his parents then slowly used his profits to develop a monopoly.  

Musk's family came from the precious gem business and he was born rich and never worked a real day of work in his life.  His first job was CEO of a company his dad gave him 200k to start with angel investors funding the rest that simple took two free databases, combined them and sold them for profit.

Gates bought DOS from Tim Paterson for 50k and illegally licensed it to IBM as MS-DOS for multitudes more.  Then he stole GUI design from a Xerox tech demo and mixed the two concepts to create windows.  The only reason he is rich and not destitute is because the courts during the two lawsuits did not understand computers.  Is stealing the work of others really making by the sweat of your brow?

Then we get Zuck we all know his story.  He stole the idea for his website from two other people while in Harvard, merging an idea they had with his former school's student directory.  He got his friend to pay for the site, then when they expanded cut his friend out.  He settled for millions with all three people, which at the time was only a tiny fraction of what the sight was work.  He took the ideas from others, let others carry the risks, yet took all of the profit in the end.  Is this a meritocracy?

Which leaves us good old Buffet.  Son of a congressman who had 100k in the bank by the time he was 14 then pestered a friend of his dad's to get him into his college program after others rejected him then give a job when he could not get one on his own starting at six figures then promoted him to partner in 12 years.  


This is the meritocracy you speak of.  Those with money easily get more money, then pass it on to their kids almost entirely tax free in the US.  That 90% tax rate at death would end a political career if proposed even by a social democrat.  Here the expected rate the rich will pay for estate tax is 0.

What have we learned today... my daddy doesn't love me.

Jan 16, 2022 0:50:47 GMT 🤯 said:

Jan 15, 2022 23:55:18 GMT iNCY said:

I'm going to do my best to ignore the it irrational bleatings of c but I believe that loan forgiveness is a terrible idea.

If I was in charge I would completely shake up the higher education system. I would encourage business and institutions to take on cadets and put them through college in a combination of classroom and workplace learning. I would have this be a paid position for the cadet and the cost of college is 100% deductible to the business.

This would work because we start to balance the number of people in college against the jobs that actually exist.
I remember when the show CSI started there were tens of thousands of people studying criminal pathology and about a handful of jobs per year nationally.

People are not entitled to a college education, if they want one that is great, but let it be in an area that allows the degree to be paid for, otherwise the wages in that field must rise.

Here's the flip side of a blue collar guy like me. I started work at 17yo I paid all my own trade school, bought all my own tools and paid for fuel to drive an hour across town every day. This was the cost of my education, you don't see people in the streets demanding this is paid for them.

Why should society pay for a degree that someone doesn't even use themself? It makes no sense whatsoever.

If college debt ends up forgiven we will just channel everyone into college and once everyone had a degree then essentially nobody has a degree.

I don't see the problem of "once everyone had a degree then essentially nobody has a degree" - especially if the degrees are free?

Bold bit feels a little like apples to oranges. Your costs seem more tied to tangible products. Tools have a clear cost. Fuel and/or mileage have a real cost. These equate more to college textbooks, and perhaps even room and board. Not the tuition part, the learning itself. I'd be on board with forgiving all debts for tuition aspects. Feel free to rape kids for overpriced books and apartments though. There's more logical free market choices around that (similar to how on the trades side you could buy shittier quality or old used tools). Anyway...

As much as I love your idea for going forward, it has zero bearing on the existing debts and their forgiveness.

What's the negative of forgiving the crippling existing debts now? Colleges are so incredibly predatory and probably absolutely in cahoots with the lenders behind college loans. At least in America. Anyway...

Are you saying college debts prop up the economy? Why does forgiveness mean someone suddenly pays some tab? Who's truly impacted if lenders are just left holding the bag? I mean truly, since history indicates lenders will just challenge policy until they're satisfied.

This reminds me of the Eternals conflict. Is a sacrifice now worth the blank slate to benefit billions-fold more people?

Really just seems like a debt, at least as amassed to date, defended by people who are whether intentionally or not stuck in a "sucked for me so has to continue sucking for others" mindsets.

Ugh...

For one the idea that everyone having something making it worthless is easily demonstrated.
The reason why YouTubers for the most part don't make much money is the low barrier to entry.
When an industry has a low or non-existent barrier to entry the financial reward sinks to meet the market.
Once everyone has a free degree, it becomes a line item on a HR checklist that is meaningless because everyone has the same one.

In the past doing a degree, meant that you had determined to pursue a field and that you had invested your own resources into making yourself an expert in your field and it was testament to your dedication.
Now this is already eroded through the predatory practices of college lending who make this investment seem like nothing.
I refuse to believe we live in a world where the best answer to people's stupid decisions is to pay them off with the money of people who didn't make the same level of moronic decisions.

If someone doesn't finish their degree or chooses a degree with no value to society... More fool them, why should people bail out their stupid decisions?

Person A - has 70k owing on a masters degree in womens studies and now is irate that her starbucks job cannot repay the debt
Person B - never went to college and is supporting their family and his 30k car just had the engine blow up and she cannot afford to replace the car.

Tell me how person A is more deserving than person B and you can be the next Democratic candidate.

As for my bolded part being apples and oranges, this is only correct if you are a bloody banana.
I have friends who are carpenters and instead of text books they were buying tools just to do their job, 60-100k worth of tools.
How is a tool any different to an education? Any argument you make against them being similar is to say that education has no value... If that was the case why subsidise it?

Jan 16, 2022 1:45:56 GMT c said:

Jan 16, 2022 0:02:45 GMT iNCY said:

I say tax inheritance and 90% doesn't scare me.

Let's see if I can make this straight forward:
Socialism: the accumulation of wealth is greed
Socialism: distributing that wealth to those who ant a share of that wealth without working for it is not greed.


I'm am hardcore about the meritocracy, if we don't rediscover the value of merit out society won't be here in 25 years.
Socialists talk about billionaires, but they need everyone's money to make their dreams reality.
Anyone who has anything nice in their life has to give it up so lazy and stupid people can have what you have.

And what is your definition of a meritocracy?  Because in the US it is taking one big risk often stealing another's work and getting rich or being born rich parents and just not losing your money.  

Let's do the top 5 here:

Bezos, Musk, Gates, Zuckerberg, Buffet.  

Bezos started Amazon with 300k giving to him from his parents then slowly used his profits to develop a monopoly.  

Musk's family came from the precious gem business and he was born rich and never worked a real day of work in his life.  His first job was CEO of a company his dad gave him 200k to start with angel investors funding the rest that simple took two free databases, combined them and sold them for profit.

Gates bought DOS from Tim Paterson for 50k and illegally licensed it to IBM as MS-DOS for multitudes more.  Then he stole GUI design from a Xerox tech demo and mixed the two concepts to create windows.  The only reason he is rich and not destitute is because the courts during the two lawsuits did not understand computers.  Is stealing the work of others really making by the sweat of your brow?

Then we get Zuck we all know his story.  He stole the idea for his website from two other people while in Harvard, merging an idea they had with his former school's student directory.  He got his friend to pay for the site, then when they expanded cut his friend out.  He settled for millions with all three people, which at the time was only a tiny fraction of what the sight was work.  He took the ideas from others, let others carry the risks, yet took all of the profit in the end.  Is this a meritocracy?

Which leaves us good old Buffet.  Son of a congressman who had 100k in the bank by the time he was 14 then pestered a friend of his dad's to get him into his college program after others rejected him then give a job when he could not get one on his own starting at six figures then promoted him to partner in 12 years.  


This is the meritocracy you speak of.  Those with money easily get more money, then pass it on to their kids almost entirely tax free in the US.  That 90% tax rate at death would end a political career if proposed even by a social democrat.  Here the expected rate the rich will pay for estate tax is 0.

Oh good lord.... Here we go again.. The Socialist talking about billionaires always with the billionaires.

Billionaires are a soft target, you cannot be a billionaire without being a lying cheating asshole.
The counter point though is that Gates and Buffet are giving all of their away.

My definition of a meritocracy has nothing to do with billionaires.
I believe that whoever you are and where you start from, you should have the opportunity to rise to the levels of your abilities and attitude for risk.
at some point this thread was bound to come crashing back into a discussion of equity vs equality.

I believe everyone should be able to try out for the Olympic athletics squad, but I don't think the team is obligated to take you because you tried very hard.
All of life is about: Potential, Practice, Persistence and Opportunity.
Sometimes the systems in the world aren't fair and I think we should strive to afford everyone the same opportunities, it doesn't mean that we should strive to deliver everyone the same outcomes.
The Civil rights movement of the 60's and 70's was all about equality.
It no longer is, the new catch cry is 'Equity" and while it all sounds pretty it is about stripping everything in our society down to the lowest common denominator.


The push for college debt forgiveness is just one attack vector of the same stupid argument repeated ad-nauseum.
I am not a Joe Rogan fan, but the mass formation psychosis seems to becoming a reality, so much group think with no real thought. 

Okay just a second here.

The fuck does it mean "Everybody wants free stuff for nothing"?!

It's MY fucking tax money! I'd like it to be used to give people healthcare and free tuition and a stronger public transit system instead of wasting trillions of dollars on planes that will never fly, ships that will never leave harbors, tanks that will never be driven, and missiles that will never be fired. The government's priority absolutely should be to better the lives of its citizens instead of financing a wasteful imperialist death machine that never wins wars.

Similarly, wages should absolutely be higher for workers, considering that profits come directly from the labor of the employee. People should have more vacation time and make more money working less hours so that people are able to actually live lives, since they're not working themselves to exhaustion and oiling the machine of capitalism with their blood.

And what I am saying is opportunity does not exist for people who were born poor. A meritocracy inevitably results in snowball inequality as the rich get richer and have to work less while seeing no decline in their monetary gains, while the poor have to work harder just to survive the inflation that the leveraging of assets for new capital by the rich creates.


Also love you bringing up mass formation psychosis. Another great example of why we are not a meritocracy. People who devote their lives to the study of the mind claim it does not exist, but because a right wing media person with no experience or education in psychology says it, it must be true. Also Rogan is about to get cancelled from Spotify for that interview.