Hard part seems to be convincing companies to wanna train from the ground up and build loyalty from within vs the current churn and burn cycle.

My issue with schooling nowadays is that many J-O-B's (not careers) now want you to have a degree. They don't usually care if it's an Arts degree, just that you have one so it's almost mandatory for you to go to University/College. My kid went for 4 semesters/2 years, didn't really know what she wanted to do and now owes 20K and won't continue because she still doesn't know what she wants to do and doesn't want to get deeper in debt. I helped by paying for her books and living costs so that money is just for her courses. She wasn't even taking a full course load.

And let's be honest, many J-O-B's can be taught 'on the job'. You either have the smarts to pick it up or you don't. I have a high school education and come from the age where you started somewhere and worked your way up. My last job I started answering the phones and doing Accounts Receivables. Then I did Accounts Payable & Receivables. Then I started taking orders, then buying inventory, logistics, doing my own customs, etc. By the time I left 7 years later, I could do everything from the time an order came in to the the time it went out the door and all the books. Now if I leave my job, after 17 years of experience I'm going to be told I need a degree or designation to do what I am doing and being paid for. I am all for mental enlightenment and education, but it's looking more like a cash cow now. Do I think higher educations should be free? No, but I do think it's needs to be subsidized if it's going to mandatory. 

Speaking of superfluous degrees, many of the Ukrainians who came over have 'higher education', but some of their degrees are absurd. One of them actually had a circus management degree.  I guess that's great if you manage a circus (which you could argue most businesses are), but not sure how that translates into a J-O-B here. 

Not sure our friends overseas get this. If you want to manage a McDonalds you need a degree here. If you want to works inventory in a factory you need a degree. Answering phones and directing calls needs a degree. Stateside majority of young people get degrees, so companies do not want to employ those who for whatever reason do not have one. Labor markets are usually good enough they can get someone with a degree over someone without one.

While people shit on special interest degrees, all degrees have a general education core which is what the companies want. They do not care about the major classes, they care you can get accepted into a college, and pass the general education stuff. Also proves they are responsible and reliable enough to attend regularly enough for a few years to graduate.

Pay here is related to degrees as well. Median income for people without degrees is dropping over the past 30 years, same even for associates degrees. Only if you go 4 years or more is it increasing.

Like people can rage against the system all they want, but stateside degrees matter to the labor market. Australia may not give a fuck, but that is the not the case at all in North America. Here degrees matter more than experience even and has for the past 30 years.

Dec 19, 2023 13:25:24 GMT @ness said:

Hard part seems to be convincing companies to wanna train from the ground up and build loyalty from within vs the current churn and burn cycle.

And invest millions into creating training programs and testing employees.  Most large companies lay off people at the end of quarters to shore up their bottom lines to align closer to record profit numbers, something tells they are not gonna want to move education in house unless the very last minute.  And certainly not without more consolidation.  

Dec 19, 2023 19:58:49 GMT c said:

Not sure our friends overseas get this. If you want to manage a McDonalds you need a degree here. If you want to works inventory in a factory you need a degree. Answering phones and directing calls needs a degree. Stateside majority of young people get degrees, so companies do not want to employ those who for whatever reason do not have one. Labor markets are usually good enough they can get someone with a degree over someone without one.

While people shit on special interest degrees, all degrees have a general education core which is what the companies want. They do not care about the major classes, they care you can get accepted into a college, and pass the general education stuff. Also proves they are responsible and reliable enough to attend regularly enough for a few years to graduate.

Pay here is related to degrees as well. Median income for people without degrees is dropping over the past 30 years, same even for associates degrees. Only if you go 4 years or more is it increasing.

Like people can rage against the system all they want, but stateside degrees matter to the labor market. Australia may not give a fuck, but that is the not the case at all in North America. Here degrees matter more than experience even and has for the past 30 years.

I don't think 30 years here. Definitely the last 10-15 though. 

Businesses want you to have a degree, but don't want to pay you accordingly and you have 40K+ (based on a 4 year degree) in student loans debt to pay off.

They also want experience, but experience used to cost so now they use you not having a degree/designation as a way to retain your experience, but not pay you for that experience. 

Experience you can sometimes argue. Degrees you def cannot. Everyone wants to use online resumes and applications to simply sort out non-degree holders.  And try to talk to someone to apply in person and they will refer you to the online portal because they do not want to hire a person just to deal with unqualified people arguing that they should be hired without the qualifications they seek.

Things started to change 30 years with the first wave of the Reagan/Bush college graduates. Things ramped up since then.  Would say it was around 2000 when things started to notably change in most areas, then 2010 when degrees became just mandated to even apply.

What people seem to forget here, is in the US before Reagan, college was mostly free. Then the GOP opposed college students protesting Vietnam, and Reagan as the figurehead, moved to increase the cost of college to push the liberal college students out of being able to afford college to try to quell the war protests. Then as president when congress refused to remove the department of education, he was pushed to promote a more private sector model of college, and student loans, that became a trillion dollar financial industry today as a key part of trickle-down economics. The people that would profit the most were the ones who required degrees to work, and promoted to parents that degrees were needed by all children.

The dangers of free college, as expressed then in the 1960s and conveniently left out of the commentary above, was the threat of a having a large number of highly trained yet unemployed / unemployable people.

If everyone has a degree who's doing the manual jobs? Who's building the country?

That was not the case at all in the US in the 60's since few went on to college as the degree was not required for a good job.

If you want people to do a job, pay them, and people will do the job.  Fuck most cities go to any bus hub and you got 20 to 200 people looking for day work in construction.  All them dangerous illegals will gladly take low pay to do construction as well.

Dec 19, 2023 22:30:50 GMT NATH45 said:

The dangers of free college, as expressed then in the 1960s and conveniently left out of the commentary above, was the threat of a having a large number of highly trained yet unemployed / unemployable people.

If everyone has a degree who's doing the manual jobs? Who's building the country?

What c is overlooking is that the education sector is completely out of control, places where tenure matters more than skill.
Loan forgiveness further breaks the system.

If someone requires a college education to work a 50-60k job then the cost of education must be relative to the position.
Nobody is going to pay $40 for a hamburger so either the skill requirement or the cost of education must be measured against the pay scale for the position.

The worst possible idea is the US taxpayer picking up the tab for an 80k degree so someone can manage a McDonalds, the absolute worst...

Also people need to not be such Dicks, I cannot believe how many people don't research an industry before they spend 5 years of their life and become indebted for a degree... I mean we trust these people to get behind a wheel of a car and drive alongside us but they can't fathom basic life decisions? They can all piss off...

No one is getting tenure in the US anymore, only chairs. The vast majority of teachers in a college setting are grad students or adjuncts on a per semester contract which are paid about the same as grad students.

Anyway free college is already here and expanding not shrinking. Most states, even red states, are moving towards free community college degrees. Many states, including red states, are making state schools also free to students. We adopted this model from Europe and Australia.

The loan issue is what to do with the students during the 20 period gap before reform was enacted that were gorged with debt. Which is about 70% of American students between 2000 and 2020, most being pressured to take on debt at 18 by their schools and parents.

And most of these people do research an industry.  Most industries in the US require any degree to enter.  Not sure why this is so hard for Australians to understand.  We are not making this up.  American business leaders want their workers to have degrees.  They want to know that people have the general college core education, and that their workers could complete a four year program.  These are top down decisions from execs and CEOs and are routinely made across the vast majority of industries in the US.  No degree you are deemed only able to perform service or low level production work by US management.  

Dec 19, 2023 23:15:35 GMT c said:

No one is getting tenure in the US anymore, only chairs. The vast majority of teachers in a college setting are grad students or adjuncts on a per semester contract which are paid about the same as grad students.

Anyway free college is already here and expanding not shrinking. Most states, even red states, are moving towards free community college degrees. Many states, including red states, are making state schools also free to students. We adopted this model from Europe and Australia.

The loan issue is what to do with the students during the 20 period gap before reform was enacted that were gorged with debt. Which is about 70% of American students between 2000 and 2020, most being pressured to take on debt at 18 by their schools and parents.

And most of these people do research an industry.  Most industries in the US require any degree to enter.  Not sure why this is so hard for Australians to understand.  We are not making this up.  American business leaders want their workers to have degrees.  They want to know that people have the general college core education, and that their workers could complete a four year program.  These are top down decisions from execs and CEOs and are routinely made across the vast majority of industries in the US.  No degree you are deemed only able to perform service or low level production work by US management.  

You have zero comprehension of anything that doesn't come out of Maos little red book.
Why would anyone take an 150k degree for a job making 40k? That's stupid and anyone who decides it's a great course of action should have their head put through a wall.

We don't have free college here, so I'm not sure why you keep your head up your arse with your us-centric view of the world... It's the same here, degrees for everything... The system is broken and you're advocating petrol on an already dumpster fire.

Dec 19, 2023 23:15:35 GMT c said:

And most of these people do research an industry.  Most industries in the US require any degree to enter.  Not sure why this is so hard for Australians to understand.  We are not making this up.  American business leaders want their workers to have degrees.  They want to know that people have the general college core education, and that their workers could complete a four year program.  These are top down decisions from execs and CEOs and are routinely made across the vast majority of industries in the US.  No degree you are deemed only able to perform service or low level production work by US management.  

Anyone who goes into college saying “as long as I get any old degree!” and then majors in fucking basket weaving deserves to be crushed by a mountain of debt.

Ok are people disputing that companies want degree here? A job that wants a BA without specifying a field does not care if you have a basket weaving degree or not. And a good chunk of jobs do not have specific degree recommendations, only BA degree. But those esoteric degrees are a tiny minority of degrees so they should not be the focus of most conservations in a world where a third of college grads have a business degree.

Incy, what is a CSP under HECS-HELP? And how do grants interplay with that system? Your country was the one that created the modern framework for the government subsidizing modern higher education. After also providing the framework for free education under the Whitlam program. Either Way you put it the average student goes through your system free or near free with the government fronting the majority of their fees. Which is the exact socialism you berate Americans for wanting from their tax dollars.  Including paying 50k plus for all those basket weaving majors.

Every time we have this conversation here, I see this guy.

Ok so what is the problem? Do people believe that corporations do not have general degree requirements in the state? Is CSP not a thing in Australia and people just lie about it internationally? And I one now making policy for the corporations, and Australia educational groups like I make all of the stories reported by the liberal media? Or am I lying again because the actual sources have different information than summary reports right wing outlets report on them?

Each fucking day I am here I want to be here less and it is really about time to delete the fucking link and move on.

You know what, fuck it peace.  People know where to find me.

Dec 20, 2023 5:41:33 GMT c said:

Ok are people disputing that companies want degree here? A job that wants a BA without specifying a field does not care if you have a basket weaving degree or not. And a good chunk of jobs do not have specific degree recommendations, only BA degree. But those esoteric degrees are a tiny minority of degrees so they should not be the focus of most conservations in a world where a third of college grads have a business degree.

Incy, what is a CSP under HECS-HELP? And how do grants interplay with that system? Your country was the one that created the modern framework for the government subsidizing modern higher education. After also providing the framework for free education under the Whitlam program. Either Way you put it the average student goes through your system free or near free with the government fronting the majority of their fees. Which is the exact socialism you berate Americans for wanting from their tax dollars.  Including paying 50k plus for all those basket weaving majors.

No one is arguing businesses want degrees. We’ve not made that claim. But spending $120K for a degree to get a $40K job, with a $60K ceiling, is bonkers.

The American university system has jumped the shark. Making college free without actually addressing the core issue - that they all behave as for-profit entities - is a huge mistake.

Dec 20, 2023 6:03:34 GMT c said:

You know what, fuck it peace.  People know where to find me.

I don't

www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/office-attendance-to-return-to-precovid-levels-soon-cbre-predicts/news-story/351486a393d24a8f225676ae4781049f

Looks like common sense has prevailed.

And the other side of this is your tech workers are working for international groups rather than Australian businesses, and the skill deficit is so severe that you have to outsource most of your tech jobs. Those outsourced jobs are of course performed remotely still, but no longer counted for surveys such as above since it is now subcontracted labor.

www.techrepublic.com/article/aiia-survey-2023-australia-it-skills-shortage/

Shortage will last at least the next two years, stunting the growth of almost all tech industries in Aussieland.  Meanwhile much of the world is happy to hire your tech workers to work remotely at competitive prices.

Feb 20, 2024 0:59:09 GMT NATH45 said:

www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/office-attendance-to-return-to-precovid-levels-soon-cbre-predicts/news-story/351486a393d24a8f225676ae4781049f

Looks like common sense has prevailed.

The bosses haven't had to push too hard to get workers back in the office most days.
Seems the main reason workers are coming back is career progression, if you aren't in the office blowing your own trumpet, someone else is there doing it in your place.
I think the sweet spot for WFH is 1 to 2 days a week maximum.
There is also a large social driver, people generally (not me) are social creatures and do enjoy interacting with people more than sitting in their home office in their PJ's.
Has to be better for the mental health.

Three days in the office is where the US settled for hybrid. Can come in more if you wish.

Tech work still has a large group that is remote only. These workers will not return. If forced they just go work for someone else. Generally these are your AI people, research specialists, analysts or cybersecurity. Some may like to be in an office, but most do not. Their career progression is based off skills not kissing ass so an office gives them little benefit unless they need to interact with hardware. Content creation is almost entirely remote as well these days.

Most remote work is very social, just uses zoom and slack rather than interrupting someone working at a desk.  Chatting with people while you work is very common in remote work settings as well.  This is rarely done in the cubicle office.

Mental health is almost always better for remote workers than office workers as the lack of commute means they get more sleep, and more hours after work to engage in other activities. Also prepare food while they work since they are in their homes and can watch the meals.

Feb 20, 2024 0:59:09 GMT NATH45 said:

www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/office-attendance-to-return-to-precovid-levels-soon-cbre-predicts/news-story/351486a393d24a8f225676ae4781049f

Looks like common sense has prevailed.

That is great news for the small businesses around the offices that cater to the workers. They’ve been hit hard.

I maintain that for most people being in the office isn’t the problem - commuting is the big issue. Generally, the housing prices near central business districts are much more expensive so people move further away where it is affordable. But roads and transit are jammed up because so many people are commuting into the area rather than being able to walk or bike to the office.

Places like LA, you are looking at two to three hours a day commuting. If you can work from home, you spend 8 hours a day on your job. If you have to work in an office that becomes 11. Do not want to commute people scream you are lazy, despite you are not getting paid to be stuck on the freeway for hours a day.

As we move more toward a global society, businesses either need to adapt or simply lose talent. If you want the best talent, you are not going to find it in a commutable distance from most jobs. And if workers have the choice to work remotely for one company or move across country or to a different country for a job, they will work remote.

Unskilled work sure you can take the local talent, but for things like tech skills that are in high demand this is not just not feasible moving forward. Morso now with an anti-college movement starting that will make the training of people in math derived fields like AI, analytics, cryptosecurity, database engineering, programming and other areas more and more scarce as time goes on. Sure people can claim they are self taught, but no one in their right mind would hire them without credentials for six figures.

Feb 20, 2024 4:20:09 GMT Gyro LC said:

Feb 20, 2024 0:59:09 GMT NATH45 said:

www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/office-attendance-to-return-to-precovid-levels-soon-cbre-predicts/news-story/351486a393d24a8f225676ae4781049f

Looks like common sense has prevailed.

That is great news for the small businesses around the offices that cater to the workers. They’ve been hit hard.

I maintain that for most people being in the office isn’t the problem - commuting is the big issue. Generally, the housing prices near central business districts are much more expensive so people move further away where it is affordable. But roads and transit are jammed up because so many people are commuting into the area rather than being able to walk or bike to the office.

That's a great point, in our CBD every office complex had a coffee shop beneath it and often a sushi restaurant as well, or something similar. These have all been shuttered since COVID,it would be nice to see them come back...

I tried explaining to people who said it might only be a 15% downturn in foot traffic, that for a business that was always marginal, it will be a death sentence.

Between the vacancies caused by COVID and the state of the city due to a communist city council, I don't know if our CBD will ever recover, it looks unlikely and I really hope I'm wrong.

I understand all sides of this argument. The higher ups are very much a 'work in the office' mentality. I see the smaller businesses that have suffered as a result as us not being in the office and I see work morale and 'bonding' has suffered as a result as well. 

Currently, I am supposed to be in the office every Tuesday. So far I have not had to this month due to my mom's surgeries, but I am trying to be more diligent about it because I understand how lucky I am.

The reason for my wanting to work from home is the following:

- I hate sharing an office with my boss who is loud and always on the phone so that I have to wear earphones all day long and take my work calls outside of my office and away from my desk where the information I need is.
- I hate sharing a desk with my co workers and not having my own dedicated work space
- I hate the commute even though it's only 30-45 minutes each way. It's still 1-2 hours of my day. Getting ready is also another 1-2 hours of my day on top of that.
- It saves me money on gas and food, make up & hair products (you guys are lucky)

That being said, if they said I HAD to start coming in 2-3 days a week again, I would ask for my own space and if it was still 'no', then I would do it because it's my job and I need it. However, if they wanted me in full time, then I would demand my own work space, because my coworker and I would be sitting on each others' laps and I don't like her THAT much.

Feb 20, 2024 21:58:11 GMT iron maiden said:

I understand all sides of this argument. The higher ups are very much a 'work in the office' mentality. I see the smaller businesses that have suffered as a result as us not being in the office and I see work morale and 'bonding' has suffered as a result as well. 

Currently, I am supposed to be in the office every Tuesday. So far I have not had to this month due to my mom's surgeries, but I am trying to be more diligent about it because I understand how lucky I am.

The reason for my wanting to work from home is the following:

- I hate sharing an office with my boss who is loud and always on the phone so that I have to wear earphones all day long and take my work calls outside of my office and away from my desk where the information I need is.
- I hate sharing a desk with my co workers and not having my own dedicated work space
- I hate the commute even though it's only 30-45 minutes each way. It's still 1-2 hours of my day. Getting ready is also another 1-2 hours of my day on top of that.
- It saves me money on gas and food, make up & hair products (you guys are lucky)

That being said, if they said I HAD to start coming in 2-3 days a week again, I would ask for my own space and if it was still 'no', then I would do it because it's my job and I need it. However, if they wanted me in full time, then I would demand my own work space, because my coworker and I would be sitting on each others' laps and I don't like her THAT much.

It doesn't answer all of your points, but I have a new very good friend who is an interior designer focusing on workplaces.
There is definitely a focus on making the office more inviting and collaborative, I won't share her work here, but it is encouraging to see workplaces focusing on the usability of the spaces.

Ironically, in the workforce now in white collar jobs I think it is getting equally looks focused for men.
Those who aren't cycling ona Sunday or running triathalons are on the outer.... Which is disappointing, because I definitely don't need any more saggy ball sacks in lycra on display in my local cafe.

Feb 20, 2024 23:27:47 GMT iNCY said:

It doesn't answer all of your points, but I have a new very good friend who is an interior designer focusing on workplaces.
There is definitely a focus on making the office more inviting and collaborative, I won't share her work here, but it is encouraging to see workplaces focusing on the usability of the spaces.

Our last workspace was open concept with breakout rooms if you needed to take a call. We each had an ergonomic desk & chair and little filing cart that doubled as a seat if someone was visiting you or needed a place to sit. I thought I would hate it, but I miss it. Believe it or not it was more soundproof than our current office building (and we're in the new part) and even though it was compact, it was MY space.

They were supposed to buy us something like that so all 3 of us could be in our current office without all the gigantic furniture, but it never came to fruition so if the return to work mandate comes through I'm not sure what they are going to do because I don't believe there is room for everyone. It doesn't take care of my loud co-worker situation and in fact would exacerbate it as there would be 3 of us in a office designed for one (maybe 2).

Self-checkout trend may be failing in the US. Some stores going to AI, but many others just making cashiers work the registers again. While retail crime is declining, there is a belief it is skyrocketing due to coverage of areas being hit by organized retail theft. In these areas coordinated groups work together to steal high value items, then fence them to people who will sell them online. And AI cannot stop them since they make no attempts to hide they are stealing and often distract any on sight security first.

ktla.com/news/money-business/self-checkouts-are-disappearing-from-retailers-heres-why/

Feels like it's just more justification of moving to an online warehouse model.

It's a brave new world here in Aussie land

www.news.com.au/finance/work/at-work/viral-video-reveals-huge-pay-packets-of-aussie-tradies-but-theres-a-catch/news-story/481dcaf0732eae46e15e4b6ff7fefe52

This is shocking people, but it's been the case here for over a decade or two. I live in a cashed up bogan suburb and it's obvious, I realise I am a somewhat cashed up bogan.