Big Pete, reading your posts throughout this thread, I honestly don't think NJPW is for you. You seem to be as bored with the NJPW ring style as I am with WWE style. I can sense the same disdain in your words for Okada/Naito (and most of the other matches) as I would have if I reviewed a random WWE match. I know from experience it's a lot easier to talk in detail about the negative things than the positive, which skews the reader's perspective, so it's hard for me to tell which matches you actually enjoyed. Jericho/Omega, maybe Suzuki/Goto, maybe the Gauntlet match? Every other review is pretty scathing.

If I was handing out stars...

Young Bucks vs Roppongi Vice 3K: **
NEVER Openweight 6-Man: * 1/2
Cody vs Kota Ibushi: ** 3/4
Los Ingobernables de Japon vs Killer Elite Squad: **
Minoru Suzuki vs Hirooki Goto: ***
Will Ospreay vs KUSHIDA vs Hiromu Takahashi vs Marty Scurll: ***
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Jay White: ** 1/2
Kenny Omega vs Chris Jericho: *** 1/2
Tetsuya Naito vs Kazuchika Okada: ***

Generally I felt more positive about matches I had very little expectations of going in. I hate the NEVER Openweight 6-Man belt, it feels like an excuse to just throw a bunch of guys together on a card instead of actively pushing them. The matches are usually the worst on any NJPW card and while this was no exception, there were some positives to take out of it.

Similarly I had no interest in Goto/Suzuki, largely because it was a repeat, but they stepped it up. It's a very divisive match, but what worked for me is that I believed in what they were doing and while very few spots were spectacular, those that were stood out. Like Omega/Jericho, it felt like the best version of the match they could have had, without it being this classic match.

In retrospect, I was harsh on the four-way. I actually liked where it was placed on the card, in a show where every match was the heel dominating for 80% only for the babyface to prevail, this was at least something different. It's the type of match I'd recommend to somebody who doesn't know better, but I know full and well it's filled with some of the worst modern trends in Pro Wrestling.

Where would you rank this WK out of the ones you've seen Emp?

Young Bucks vs Roppongi Vice 3K: **
NEVER Openweight 6-Man: N/A
Cody vs Kota Ibushi: **1/2
Los Ingobernables de Japon vs Killer Elite Squad: **3/4
Minoru Suzuki vs Hirooki Goto: **1/4
Will Ospreay vs KUSHIDA vs Hiromu Takahashi vs Marty Scurll: ***1/2
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Jay White: **1/2
Kenny Omega vs Chris Jericho: ****3/4
Tetsuya Naito vs Kazuchika Okada: ****1/2

Jan 5, 2018 8:16:52 GMT Big Pete said:

I hated the Brandi Rhodes spot in the Cody/Ibushi match, what a way to make Kota look like a geek. Who would even do that? I can understand stopping what you're doing, but to physically lift your opponents wife and carry her to the back was seriously dumb.

I agree. He should have just checked on her for until Cody jumped him from behind, and that would be that. That spot is unheard of in Japan, so they wanted to ham it out as much as possible I guess. I also kinda disliked Cody and Brandi having their ha-ha-ha-gotcha moment. I guess it's fine in this instance because that's in Cody's character, but it still felt like gif bait and would have been better if Cody ruthlessly attacked Ibushi, with a camera cut to Brandi getting up with a knowing smirk on her face. Very minor nitpick though.

Jan 5, 2018 8:16:52 GMT Big Pete said:

Something happened with the IWGP Tag Team match. I was really into the opening portion of the match, loved Archer going all HHH on everyone and spraying water into every section of the front row. Even loved how they laid out EVIL, but then their entire heat portion became like white noise to me. Maybe the show was beginning to drag for me, but nothing caught my attention save for some SANADA spots and before I knew it we had some new tag team champions.

I like the premise of a heel wrestler/team catching the good guys with a finisher right at the bell and having the faces fight from underneath the entire match. The problem is that Killer Elite Squad are the heels and they were booked to lose. Smith and Archer are two huge jacked guys, who wrestle like monsters, because they are monsters. For them to hit their awesome finisher right at the start, have EVIL sell it like he's legit KO'd for minutes, and for them to not only not win quickly, but to lose the match, makes them look like a joke. It's not even like the heels were taunting and hamming it upgive the faces a chance. EVIL and SANADA took all kinds of huge offense, survived, and won after comparatively little offense of their own. It was a nice moment when SANADA got the pin, and generally great heel work from KES, but the story was fundamentally flawed.

Jan 5, 2018 8:16:52 GMT Big Pete said:

Tanahashi/White maybe the worst WK match Tanahashi has ever had. Maybe it's because Hiroshi didn't bother to adapt at all and just worked his own match against a guy who hasn't worked on any offence yet? Two moments stick out - the turnbuckle spot where the crowd laughed at Switchblade and the shitty looking brainbuster on the apron.

I missed this one. What happened? Must admit I wasn't fully paying attention to the match.

Jan 5, 2018 9:15:39 GMT Big Pete said:

Where would you rank this WK out of the ones you've seen Emp?

Probably the worst, but not by a huge amount. I've seen WKs 9-12. It was basically a two match show. Almost all the undercard matches didn't feel special, they didn't have that WK feel to them despite some interesting pairings.

Jan 5, 2018 9:15:39 GMT Big Pete said:

I know full and well it's filled with some of the worst modern trends in Pro Wrestling.

I feel like this would be an awesome thread. Make it!

Before this morning I only saw Kenny Omega when he wrestled in ROH back in the day. He was being dominated in the majority of the match. Because of this when he started his comeback almost move he hit felt that much more meaningful. I have a new favorite wrestler and he's the cleaner.

I agree. He should have just checked on her for until Cody jumped him from behind, and that would be that. That spot is unheard of in Japan, so they wanted to ham it out as much as possible I guess. I also kinda disliked Cody and Brandi having their ha-ha-ha-gotcha moment. I guess it's fine in this instance because that's in Cody's character, but it still felt like gif bait and would have been better if Cody ruthlessly attacked Ibushi, with a camera cut to Brandi getting up with a knowing smirk on her face. Very minor nitpick though.

Agreed and in fairness, they got more out of the crowd going the route they did. The crowd responded when Ibushi checked on her, they popped again when he picked him up, they responded again when Cody punched Ibushi and they popped again when they saw Brandi and Cody laughing so there were four big moments right there. I just didn't like how it made Ibushi look like a geek, and that wasn't long after he got punked out after Cody helped him up off the ground only to smack him back down.

Come to think of it, the worst spot was right after the chair spot on the apron. I didn't mind them going in that direction since Brandi is clearly a big part of Cody's act right now and it does give him a point of difference in Japan. However after hitting Ibushi a few times, he misses Ibushi, Ibushi somehow shrugs off the initial strikes and hits a big wind up baseball slide which somehow causes Cody to run around to the entrance ramp so Kota could hit his big dive. That spot right there killed the match for me. When a guy has to go to such great lengths just to make the spot work it kills the story.

The match also reminded me of another issue with the show and that was the production. They missed so many spots or would often choose the worst camera to showcase the spots. One prime example was in this match where Cody flips the bird and they cut away to a nothing shot.

I like the premise of a heel wrestler/team catching the good guys with a finisher right at the bell and having the faces fight from underneath the entire match. The problem is that Killer Elite Squad are the heels and they were booked to lose. Smith and Archer are two huge jacked guys, who wrestle like monsters, because they are monsters. For them to hit their awesome finisher right at the start, have EVIL sell it like he's legit KO'd for minutes, and for them to not only not win quickly, but to lose the match, makes them look like a joke. It's not even like the heels were taunting and hamming it upgive the faces a chance. EVIL and SANADA took all kinds of huge offense, survived, and won after comparatively little offense of their own. It was a nice moment when SANADA got the pin, and generally great heel work from KES, but the story was fundamentally flawed.

It seemed like the story they were telling is that KES were a real championship team, while EVIL/SANADA weren't there yet. They constantly kept making mistakes and KES made them pay all the time. You're right about how little offence there was in the comeback, it seemed like the story was LIJ had one small window and took it but the moonsault seemed underwhelming. The other issue is that Archer is a pretty limited worker and outside of his chokeslam he doesn't really offer a lot. I thought the top rope variation of the Spanish Fly was silly, it should at the very least be a good near-fall, not grounds for the babyface to make a hot tag.

Admittedly, I was impressed with Harry and think he should be featured higher on the card. He's come a long way since his days in the WWE where Tyson Kidd (one of the most underrated workers of all-time) would have to carry everything.

I missed this one. What happened? Must admit I wasn't fully paying attention to the match.

It was right after the brainbuster on the apron where White only dropped Tanahashi a couple of centimetres on his head. After that he throws Tanahashi inside the ring, goes to the top, poses like he's about to hit a big spot, but realises Tanahashi is too far away, so he awkwardly descends from the top as Tanahashi slithers to the corner. White looks completely lost at this point and just slowly works over Tanahashi. This leads into the spot where he challenges Tanahashi to show him the real ace, almost like he had no idea how to orchestrate a proper comeback. That was basically when the match went from being potentially a really well rounded match to pretty average Tanahashi fair.

Probably the worst, but not by a huge amount. I've seen WKs 9-12. It was basically a two match show. Almost all the undercard matches didn't feel special, they didn't have that WK feel to them despite some interesting pairings.

I agree and that's why I wasn't as high on this show. In my head, I'm constantly comparing it to other shows and it's clear this show pales in comparison.

I was also upfront about not being a huge fan of Naito/Okada as a pairing. They have better chemistry with other opponents and the match was fairly straight forward for an Okada match. For me, I like emotion in my matches and no other match had more emotion than Suzuki/Goto. I bought into the bad blood these two had, whereas Jericho/Omega had moments where I felt like it was going for MotN. In fairness it succeeded, but that was the difference between it being a really good match to a great match.

- Opening Owens/Zayn punches were awful.

- I liked the rope break spot with the ref acting on instinct and Jericho using it for good heeling, even while not breaking any rules.

- Attacking Red Shoes and his son was a good way to give Omega time to recover from the table spot and good heeling in general.

- I didn't like the spot with the powerbomb attempt through the table to ultimately do it on the floor. We all know that a table there is actually helping the workers by breaking their fall but is meant to be worse in kayfabe. But actually then doing the move on the floor and it clearly, visibly being so much worse hurts any table spots going forward in the match.

- Lack of the level of hatred and intensity in the match I expected so far really, given the build.

- Omega is supposed to be in a blood feud match and has just escaped Jericho's finisher and decides this is the time to do a comedy spot with the cold spray. Not for me at all. I want to see these two trying to maim each other.

- Now we get a fiasco with the blade that also hurts things. Blinded Jericho pushes the ref into Omega and the blade handover was meant to be there, but it visibly flies out of the ref's hand. Then Omega gets rammed head-first into the chair but while Jericho is diverting attention asking for a towel, Omega doesn't have the blade to slice himself with. The ref gets back up and tries to hand Omega the blade, but Omega doesn't notice. Jericho assumes he has the blade, so rams him into the chair again twice. The ref goes over to Jericho to let him know the situation and Jericho tells him to give him the blade while he works the crowd as distraction. The camera should have cut to Jericho taunting but instead we just get a nice, clear view of the ref reaching into his pocket and setting the blade down in front of Omega. Vinnie Mac would be tearing his hair out at this. Omega finally has the blade so Jericho rams his head into the chair one final time, with some nice taunting prior. Jericho taunts again to allow Omega to blade. I don't like the amount of taunting here in terms of a match where both men should be more at each other's throats (even if it fits Jericho's character, like the comedy bit does Omega's I guess), but it had to be done to cover for the blade miscommunications. So I can certainly applaud Jericho as a pro for making the best of the situation.

- At least the intensity has gone up a notch since the blood got introduced, with Jericho wearing Omega out with a chair. Not setting up a fucking chair-construction. Just hitting him with them as they fall apart.

- Didn't like the Jericho spot through the table. He took the chair to the face but hung on, but it came across as in he wasn't supposed to almost fall off with that one but almost legit did and the way he had to legit hold on seemed inconsistent with someone who has just gotten smashed in the face with a chair. And then when he takes the next shot and is ready to take the bump, he hangs on too long before letting go, very telegraphed as a bump, positioning himself and readying for it. Fair enough for a guy at Jericho's age to protect himself, but just don't do the spot if it isn't going to look good.

- Omega looks like he was going for a double underhook piledriver, but he pretty much ended it with Jericho taking a bump right on top of him. Is that what he was going for? Which would make no sense. Or was he just trying to protect Jericho? In which case, don't do the spot. I'm not normally one to care too much about technical deficiencies, but it is one of the only things I can often praise Omega for.

- OWA counter into Walls was nice. One of those expected spots that works regardless. Jericho's mouth bleeding from the knees helped the intense feel and moving into a Liontamer briefly was good stuff.

- OWA with the rope break was a great nearfall. It is No DQ, not Falls Count Anywhere. As soon as you touch the ropes, you are technically outside the ring and therefore you cannot win. The same way that your opponent could tap while in the ropes and you would not win. But you don't need to break either.

- Finishing stretch then was standard fare and the final OWA on the chair was a brutal finish.

- "The critics of Kenny Omega can go to hell" got an eye-roll from me.

I've seen this praised very, very highly on different parts of the net, but I don't really see it. Didn't need to be that long, could've done with more of a nasty feel. It is a great Jericho heel performance and a good match, but far from elite. I'd probably go along with Big Pete on this one as far as star rating goes.

I know White isn't the best wrestler in the world, but I think with Tanahashi being hurt, it became all about him....with White basically following the vet's wishes and not being able to do much. Basically, if the guy you're facing can't or won't do anything with you, what can you really do?

Jan 5, 2018 5:06:32 GMT hbk4life said:

I’m in he minority but I don’t get what’s so great about Okada.

I'm with you here. While he may share more traits with Randy Orton (technically competent but not exactly oozing charisma), I think I view Okada like some (but not I) view Cena - he does enough correct things within the house style to have a good number of good, sometimes very good, even great matches at times, but he himself is not someone that excites me or who I think is particularly amazing himself.

Just watched the main. Why does every Okada match seemingly have a boring first third-to-half (so this can be up to 20 minutes, depending on the match length) where nothing truly compelling or of ultimate consequence happens? This match just felt like a lot of stuff happening. Two guys going back and forth with moves. Nothing gripping, no narrative or character work that pulled me in. And the finishing stretch seemed to go a touch too far like usual; I will never enjoy that at the end of these long matches, after having done some exhaustion selling, they are then sprinting about like juniors at the start of a match. And I don't like that everyone's finisher seems to need to have some sort of twist or additional step that makes it easier in kayfabe to counter, just so they can do these overly choreographed sequences.

I think I am going to give up on modern New Japan. Lots of people love the stuff and don't need me pissing on their parade. I don't care for the characters and the matches end up disappointing me more than anything.

The commentator (was it Kevin Kelly?) talking about the fucking odds of Meltzer's star rating is a new low.

LOL @ the Orton comparison. I was gonna say the one thing Okada has is that dropkick and if I recall that was Randy's big thing once upon a time.

I must just be easily pleased because I loved pretty much the whole show start to finish. Sure there were flaws, and a few decisions that I didn't like, but overall it was 92 hrs well spent. I've been keeping up with most of the happenings in NJPW this year -more so than other years in recent memory- but I haven't watched every show, skipped all but a few matches from both G1 and BOTSJ, and FF'd through the majority of multi-man matches that dominate basically every show the company puts on, so I didn't feel any sort of burn out come time for the big one.

Back when I first began following NJPW regularly, Masahito Kakihara became one of my favourites, so it warmed my heart to see him come back from a battle with cancer to be honoured in such a manner.

Obviously I have to point out how completely and utterly devastated I was that Naito never won.. I'm hoping I'll stop crying come time for WK13 

Jan 8, 2018 2:57:17 GMT @ness said:

LOL @ the Orton comparison. I was gonna say the one thing Okada has is that dropkick and if I recall that was Randy's big thing once upon a time.

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have used it, it was a poor way of segueing into comparing with Cena, but just used it since people used to compare the two. He is not close to the charisma black hole that is Randy.

Did you check out Goto/Suzuki, Strobe? I'd imagine that match would be right up your alley. I'm waiting for the AXS broadcast to see how well it holds up, but my initial impression is that it had more intensity than both main event matches. It seemed like both guys wanted to win and were prepared to do anything to get the result they wanted. The only aspect of the match I remember disliking was Suzuki's tunnel vision and how it was used as his downfall. But that's more of a personal grievance than an objective knock against the match.

My fellow Australians.. 

Oh lord. 

NEW JAPAN PRO WRESTLING ANNOUNCE FALLOUT DOWN UNDER TOUR!

www.destroyalllines.com/2018/01/09/new-japan-pro-wrestling-announce-fallout-down-under-tour/

Adelaide over Brisbane...clearly Emperor had a word to the owners about my bitching.

Really weird press conference with Jericho. His heel stuff is really good, but then he breaks character out of nowhere and talks about how well they worked and how good it is for NJPW. Confusing.



Okada's press conference in particular is very interesting. "Naito, Tanahashi, Omega can shine all they like, as long as it's around me." I say this a lot, but I really like the "real athlete" approach NJPW takes to their interviews.

There's post match interviews for all the WK matches on that Youtube channel. Subtitles provided.

Jan 8, 2018 19:02:56 GMT Big Pete said:

Did you check out Goto/Suzuki, Strobe? I'd imagine that match would be right up your alley.

No, but I might try to give it a watch tonight.

And no wonder I felt like Omega/Jericho was too long. It went over 34 mins. The only Mania matches that ever went longer were WM 2000 4-Way Elimination and the Iron Man.

Big Pete / Emperor / (Meltzer)

Young Bucks vs Roppongi Vice 3K: ** / ** / (****)
Cody vs Kota Ibushi: **¾ / **½ / (****¼)
Los Ingobernables de Japon vs Killer Elite Squad: ** / **¾ / (****)
Minoru Suzuki vs Hirooki Goto: *** / **¼ / (****½)
Will Ospreay vs KUSHIDA vs Hiromu Takahashi vs Marty Scurll: *** / ***½ / (****¾)
Hiroshi Tanahashi vs Jay White: **½ /  **½ / (***¾)
Kenny Omega vs Chris Jericho: ***½ / ****¾ / (*****)
Tetsuya Naito vs Kazuchika Okada: *** / ****½ / (****½)

I found it interesting that both Pete and Emp had pretty similar ratings for the undercard and the only big discrepancies were the two big matches. But Meltzer was just sprinkling the stars all over the place here. He and Emp are basically in agreement on the big two but way off on the rest.

Does Meltzer think this was the greatest show ever or at least top 3? We all know he loves current New Japan but this seems excessive even for him (I've only seen the final two matches and Pete is closer to my views, but I'd likely go even less on the main). His opinion still holds massive relevance and guidance to a large number of hardcore fans, so do we think this will end up eventually being held up as an all-time classic show by many or will Meltzer's influence not end up having a major impact? I don't get the feeling around the web that anyone else is going as high as Meltzer is here.

Five stars? Wow. The fact that he gave the other Omega match over 5 just makes me think he's a Kenny mark. Which is fine.

I think I'm generally pretty generous with star ratings, but those are on a whole 'nuther level. Every match except Tanahashi/White **** and above? Come on. Well it's nice to know Meltzer had a great time watching the show. Better than any of us marks.

To put it in perspective Big Money Meltz thought Omega/Jericho was better than Taker/Shawn (both times), Eddy/Rey from 97 AND Savage/Warrior. I mean, you can pick your own set to compare it to... but it seems really weird. It was a fun match, but wow.

I'm late and probably can't add too much that hasn't already been said, but I just watched Jericho vs Omega and enjoyed it a lot, but it definitely wasn't a five star match. There were too many not particularly well executed spots for it to be considered that, but ignoring that it was a lot of fun. I definitely got the Attitude Era main event vibe that a few of you guys picked up on, and it's damn impressive that Jericho can still go like that at 47. Not only was it a real triumph of his longevity, but a real clinic of his charisma and showmanship, still having the crowd eating out of his hand and playing an effective heel in 2018.