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Post by 🤯 on Mar 1, 2022 3:09:04 GMT
Started listening to Kurt's podcast with Conrad, and it almost immediately got me realizing Kurt is probably my #2 favorite wrestler of all time and could've/should've been so much more. Arguably THE greatest pro wrestler ever. He seriously could've been the perfect fusion of Hulk Hogan and Bret Hart but with the comedic chops of a Rock.
Anyway, the following questions popped into my head as what-if's for Kurt:
- What if Kurt had signed with the WWF in 1996 when they made their initial offer? When does he debut, and how is he booked/pushed?
- What if Kurt had signed with WCW? And why didn't WCW pursue Kurt? Considering the Atlanta connection between the 1996 Olympics and Turner, it seems almost like too perfect of a fit.
- What if Kurt's love triangle storyline with Steph in 2000 hadn't been cockblocked by an insecure HHH? How would the rest of that story arc have gone?
- What if Kurt had been pushed hard as mega American Hero patriot baby face in the wake of 9/11? No flip flop mole heel turn?
- What if Kurt had been given Jericho's spot/run as first-ever undisputed champion and Steph-allied HHH opponent at WrestleMania X8?
- What if Kurt's neck hadn't been injured at No Way Out 2003? What if he'd been relatively full health for all of 2003/2004?
- What if Kurt's neck had been bad enough he did have to be pulled from the WMXIX main event?
- What if Kurt had the normal neck surgery in 2003 and missed a whole year, including WMXX?
- What if Kurt hadn't bailed in 2006?
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Post by Big Pete on Mar 1, 2022 4:07:34 GMT
Kurt would have had a similar run as Mark Henry/Rocky Maivia where he's hanging around the lower mid-card working with veterans as a white meat babyface. His big break would come when The Hitman would work with him instead of The Patriot. Things pick up in 1998 when he gets caught up in the NWA Invasion/Shamrock/Severn thing. Kurt would also be kept out of Brawl For All making it 10 times less exciting than it could have been.
Kurt would have been at that Alex Wright tier, working TV title matches and just spinning his wheels in the mid-card. He'd be a white meat babyface until Russo would push him to the moon giving us Jarrett/Angle early. Kurt would still get squashed by the WWF during the Alliance Invasion but he'd finish up on his feet and probably get a run.
Kurt wins at Unforgiven, wins the title at No Mercy but is framed for the hit and run on Austin by HHH. Angle feuds with Austin, but ends up turning babyface and wrestles HHH at Mania with Stephanie choosing to be with Angle. The angle then fizzles out because babyface Steph doesn't work and it turns out she's still with HHH setting up a rematch. Kurt then reveals he's got a new love interest - because I like recycling ideas and borrowing my idea for Test's 2000 run.
Tiger Ali Singh would have dollar signs for eyes.
Not a lot changes, Kurt/HHH had their program at No Way Out.
I don't think we'd get babyface Kurt. I don't think a ton would change, things would just be out of order with Brock/Kurt doing a blow-off at Backlash. Cena/Brock working Judgement Day on the undercard, Brock/Show/Angle later on and then Brock does the heel turn at SummerSlam against Taker.
I'm pretty sure Benoit was on stand-by as the sub?
Somebody would have been sent over to SmackDown to clear the void. We may have even got that return Hogan/Brock match as well with Hogan going over and then coming back at SummerSlam for the rubber match. Desperate times call for desperate measures etc.
Swing low, sweet chariot...
Kurt would have gone to rehab, straightened himself out and would have been pushed as the guy on SmackDown in 2007 when half the roster was seemingly injured. Kurt vs. Batista at Wrestlemania XXIV so Big Dave doesn't feel disrespected then SmackDown is largely HHH/Angle rekindling their feud with Angle doing the honours for Jeff (although Hunter totally should have...). Wrestlemania XXV Kurt is tossed into that Cena title match and possibly at the expense of somebody. In 09 he's back on RAW feuding with Orton and putting him over before he's basically just doing skits with all the Guest General Managers. 2010 he's working Swagger and from there he'd follow HHH, Batista, Shawn Michaels, Edge, Taker etc. into that sweet part-time gig. Coming out every so often to work Del Rio, Ziggler, Taker at Mania etc.
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Post by Kilgore on Mar 1, 2022 7:07:18 GMT
Finding it almost impossible to picture Angle in a time before he appeared, it was just such great timing for the conventional babyface in a time where that makes you a douchebag heel, which suited him perfectly, and any situation other than that becomes pulling teeth. It's almost, like, Angle needs to appear in 1990 WCW, or something, where being a real athlete automatically gets you a little over.
But 1996?
Dead on arrival in WCW amidst the WCW/nWo war.
WWF isn't much better as they enter their 1997 gang warfare era, just one stable feuding with another stable, where Angle doesn't really fit in. Even The Patriot spot later in the year, where does that leave him the second it's over? By 1998, he's in some Vince Russo midcard hell programs. In retrospect, what a blessing for Kurt to show up basically as soon as Russo departed.
That makes me think WCW is the better option on this timeline. Best case scenario is he joins the babyface Horsemen in 1997, having his own flair for gold, maybe it's the Jarrett spot, or a swerve on Mongo, doesn't matter. Angle/Benoit tagging here and there until they explode. Angle probably steals a lot of the natural push Benoit gets, he's just better than him, and flashier, which matters in a movez era. Also being a natural heel, he probably ends up swerving the Horsemen for the nWo, which stunts his growth upwards for a while, but at least keeps him cool as a personality, and ready to take the next step when the nWo finally winds down. Goldberg vs. Angle is a natural matchup, but unfortunately, probably happens at the wrong time for Angle, either before he's as big as he's going to be in WCW, or after he's as big as he's going to be and Goldberg's streak is over, and WCW barely matters anymore.
Angle showing up in the WWF when he did really was the perfect time for him, I think. It was in that small transition in 2000 where workrate went up, so he could shine, but still Attitude Era personality where he could show his versatility as serious or goofball depending on the program. The only downside being, by the time he really hit his peak, the era was winding down, WM17 has happened, and it's never really the same.
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Post by Big Pete on Mar 1, 2022 10:31:57 GMT
I don't buy Kurt as a Horseman. It may sound crazy, but given the choice, I honestly think Flair & Bischoff go with Mongo over Kurt. Mongo was crazy and the boys loved him, perfect Horseman material. Plus Debra McMichael was a focal point of the Horseman in 1996-97. Plus if Kurt is joining WCW in 1996, he's going through the PowerPlant system which would mean he'd likely find himself hanging with DDP. Best case scenario, and you'll hate this Kilgore, is that Lord Steven Regal sees something in him and he ends up taking Prince Iaukea's push in '97 and does more with it. Maybe he makes the Horseman revival in 98-99, but I doubt it. I see Hennig taking a shine to him and by proxy Scott Hall and he fills that role Louie Spicolli and Disco had.
I just don't see Kurt thriving in that locker room and it most likely takes Russo coming in, reading the internet and letting Kurt speak without having to go through the motions of a Mean Gene/Lee Marshall promo.
As an aside, has Jarrett ever spoken about his time as a Horseman? I always got the sense that it was a Bischoff call, but they ended up scrapping the storyline because they lost interest in Jeff. In the end they drafted in Hennig and he filled the role much better.
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Post by 🤯 on Mar 1, 2022 20:00:38 GMT
Man, you guys are bursting my bubble with some of these replies!
Thinking more on it and listening to more Kurt podcasts, I'm realizing how critical Brian Gewirtz (*spelling?) was to so much of Kurt's character success.
Nevertheless...
Part of me was gleefully imagining Kurt signing with the WWF in 1996 and getting pushed hard once preliminary training revealed he had an uncanny natural act for the business.
I'm picturing something like:
1996
- Kurt wins Olympic gold in Atlanta at the the of July, is approached by the WWF with a considerable guaranteed deal, and signs.
- Big in-ring hoopla segment at SummerSlam to officially celebrate Kurt winning gold and announce he has signed with the WWF. Kurt makes his first appearance as a shoot humble babyface, not yet knowing what he doesn't know. Says just like Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania, Kurt realized his boyhood dream by winning Olympic gold for his country. Kurt looks forward to one day hopefully wrestling Shawn for the WWF title and wishes Shawn luck in his title defense against Vader.
- Kurt commences rigorous training with Dory, Dr. Tom, etc. When brass quickly realizes Kurt has "It" in spades, they start documenting his training and airing Rocky-style montages on RAW. Kurt trains five days a week for the next two months (September & October) and is so focused he isn't distracted and thus deterred by any ECW shenanigans.
- Kurt's debut WWF match is set for Survivor Series in MSG. He's pitted against The Sultan (w/ The Iron Sheik) in a glorified squash against a trusted hand. Added bonus is the storyline hook of Iranian Olympian Sheiky Baby trying to avenge Abbas Jadidi by taking out Kurt via mysterious Persian Sultan. Fatu makes Kurt look great, but the hostile MSG fans mock and rip Kurt a new one in a warm-up for the receptions they'll give also-debuting Rocky Maivia and main-eventer HBK. Pair Kurt with Mickey-style mentor Bob Backlund to offset Sheik, idea being we're trying to revert Bob to a face and avenge his own title loss to Sheik via surrogate Kurt. But it all backfires because of fan reaction and changing tides and trends in the pro wrestling business...
- Backlund responds by doubling down on his Mister schtick. Kurt immediately flourishes as the naive hypocrite delusional manipulator he was in late 1999/early 2000. He's like the heel version of the Howdy Doody version of Bob Backlund. Together they cut promos on the WWF and its fans, promising to bring the Three I's back to pro wrestling: intensity, intelligence, and integrity. Bob teaches Kurt how the pros are different than the amateurs. Namely, Kurt needs to learn submissions. So Bob teaches Kurt how to procure a Crossface Chicken Wing.
- Since Kurt is still technically a face, and since Austin is still technically a heel, we program them together for a holdover match at IYH: December. Feud is built around Austin's King of the Ring win not being nearly as impressive of an accomplishment as winning Olympic gold. Furthermore, Austin's foul language and fouler attitude represent perhaps the worst sportsmanship Kurt has ever witnessed at either the amateur or pro level. Kurt & Austin tear it up in an undercard clinic at IYH: December. Austin gets the win in a callback to the Survivor Series finish when he pins Kurt with the WrestleMania VIII finish while Kurt has him in the Crossface Chicken Wing. Austin is restored after losing to Bret at the previous PPV, and a message is sent to the Olympian that everyone loses matches in pro wrestling. Austin costs Bret his main event title match against Sid.
1997
- Kurt tries to redeem his loss by declaring himself an entrant in the Rumble. He gets the Iron Man spot, and even eliminates Austin as payback for the loss the previous PPV... but referees don't see the elimination because they're all involved trying to break up a brawl at ringside between Foley & Funk. Austin sneaks back in, and Kurt is ultimately eliminated while trying to explain to the refs that Austin was eliminated. Austin goes on to win the Rumble after last eliminating Bret, and Shawn wins the title back from Sid.
- Kurt grows increasingly frustrated with the apparent lawlessness of the WWF. Finds himself a loose de facto ally of an equally frustrated Bret. Kurt echoes Bret in continuing to chastise the WWF, its fans and their reactions and apparent appetites, and his fellow WWF Superstars... which, what even is a "Superstar"!? Kurt signed on to be a WRESTLER. Because that's what he is.
- Kurt gets slotted into a interim program as challenger to Rocky Maivia's newly won IC title at IYH: February. Kurt cuts a promo saying he respects Rocky for sharing his understanding of the importance of family. Kurt also commiserates with Rocky as far as sharing in the confusion over the fan response to such promising blue chipper athletes. But Kurt doesn't respect Rocky leveraging his third generation status and family ties to the business to shortcut to success. Kurt doesn't commiserate with being a fluke champion either, whether you were the underdog or not when you won the title. Kurt loses on a technicality at IYH: February when an interfering Chyna low blows Rocky on former IC Champion HHH's behalf.
- Kurt is losing his mind on the match toward WrestleMania XIII. In the WWF apparently you can use foul language and foreign objects, women can flaunt their naked bodies and attack male competitors during matches, there are no real consequences for disqualifications, and generally no real rule enforcement... What the heck, people?! On top of that, you've got bizarro characters like Undertaker, Mankind, Goldust, etc. portraying themselves as wrestlers!? Kurt has wrestled athletes from every country all over the world in his amateur days, but he never saw anyone purporting to be a zombie or self-mutilating psychopath or body-painted homosexual film fanatic. Insert Goldust, who claims to be fixated on Kurt's gold medals.
- Sets up match at WrestleMania XIII pitting Kurt in his most uncomfortable match to date. Both Goldust AND ringside Marlena pull every mind screw they can to mess with Kurt. Kurt's comedic chops shine brighter than his polished Olympic gold medals as he sells the mind games big time. Ultimately finish sees Kurt snap similar to his IRL No Way Out 2001 match against Rock. He submits Goldust with the Crossface Chicken Wing while Mr. Backlund gleefully applies the same hold on Marlena on the floor. Later in the night, serious Kurt has a run-in with special guest referee Ken Shamrock. Shamrock gives his respect to Kurt for Kurt's shoot achievements and trying to transition to go pro. Kurt no sells Ken's UFC accomplishments, equating octagon combat to glorified bar fights.
- After Rocky defends the IC title against HHH in a ladder match at WM13, Kurt calls him out as a disgrace of a champion for agreeing to defend the title in such an absurd match type. Kurt claims they have unfinished business since Chyna ruined their last encounter. This sets up a rematch at IYH: April where Kurt wins the IC title by submitting him with the ankle lock. Kurt reapplied the hold after the match, injuring Rocky and sending a message to Shamrock (who debuted the devastating hold on a recent RAW).
- IC Champ Kurt goes back on the warpath of trying to rid the WWF of "non-athlete freaks", and defends the title against Mankind at IYH: May. Kurt retains by TKO when Mankind puts himself in the Mandible Claw while in Kurt's ankle lock to prevent himself from submitting. Meanwhile, Shamrock makes his WWF PPV debut with an impressive win over Vader.
- Kurt gets his first world title shot in the WWF in a champion vs. champion match against Taker at King of the Ring. Special guest color commentator Ken Shamrock ultimately costs Kurt the match when Kurt confronts him at the announce table late in the match. Shamrock, not about to take shit from no one, cold cocks an unsuspecting Kurt, knocking him out cold on the floor. Instead of letting him be counted out, Shamrock chucks Kurt's carcass back into the ring. Taker hits an arguably unnecessary Tombstone for the academic pinfall. Kurt is LIVID in the wake of KOTR.
- To regain some standing, Kurt issues and impromptu open invitational for the IC title on the Free For All before IYH: July. Honky Tonk Man accepts on behalf of Rockabilly, promising the rebranded Billy Gunn will become the greatest IC champ since HTM. Kurt squashes Rockabilly, pinning him in record time with an inside cradle or something. Kurt then runs in during the Canadian Stampede match while Owen is out of action to help even the sides, but mainly to take Shamrock out with a title belt shot to the face. Kurt later explains he isn't an ally of the Hart Foundation because he doesn't like their anti-USA stance. However, he'd be lying if he said he didn't think they maybe had a point about how trashy America had become. Shamrock takes umbrage to Kurt "turning his back on America" as well as Kurt's cowardly tactics to provoke Shamrock. Shamrock challenges Kurt to face him like a man.
- Kurt retains the IC title against Shamrock at SummerSlam under No Holds Barred stipulations after using a chair to beat Shamrock's brains in. We get the same main event as IRL with Bret beating Taker for the title thanks to special guest referee Shawn. Owen vs. Austin is a title-less grudge match to avoid logistical problems with Austin's broken neck and ascension up the card.
- Kurt vows to prove himself the true American Hero he is, and thereby give trashy Americans a real role model to be inspired by and aspire to be like... And Kurt intends to do so by defeating Canadian Hero Bret Hart for the World title. It's champ vs. champ again at IYH: September, with Kurt getting Patriot's spot. Bret humiliates Kurt by submitting him with the Sharpshooter.
- Kurt goes on a rampage in the fall, targeting the Hart Foundation to remedy his embarrassment. He beats European champ Bulldog in a title vs. title match at One Night Only in the UK to become the first-ever Eurocontinental Champion. Kurt goes on to defend both titles in a two-fall three-way match against Owen & Bulldog at IYH: October. It's like his IRL WM2000 match. Kurt pins Bulldog to retain the European title. Then Owen pins Bulldog to win Kurt's IC title. Kurt is like dafuq, how do I lose my championship without even being pinned!?
- Kurt captains Team USA to defeat at Survivor Series against Team Canada, walking out in the end to get himself eliminated after he becomes frustrated with the subpar performance of his team. This draws the ire of teammate Vader. Meanwhile, Owen drops the IC title to Austin like IRL. In the main event, Bret screws Bret and Shawn becomes world champ once again like IRL.
- Kurt mocks the Hart family and especially Owen for sticking around to be the WWF's punching bag. Since Russo is here now, things get even more shooty with Kurt saying Bret never would've been screwed if Bret had been a real shooter like Kurt. Kurt says he'll never be screwed. The only man who can screw Kurt is Kurt. And Kurt will never screw himself! Wait... What? Anyway, it leads to Owen beating Kurt for the European title at IYH: December thanks in part to interference from Vader.
1998
- Kurt's new year resolution is to finally get the respect he deserves as an American Hero and Olympic Gold Medalist. First order of business is pinning Vader when their issue comes to ahead in a match at Royal Rumble. Kurt debuts his moonsault during this program, proving he can do anything better than anyone (after avoiding Vader's moonsault). Kurt enters the Rumble later that night at #30, but Austin chucks him as soon as he enters the ring... Almost Bushwhacker/Warlord-style. Special guest Mike Tyson howls in laughter in a Sky box at Kurt's humiliation.
- Road to WrestleMania sees Kurt's path cross with Tyson's, and Kurt vs. Tyson in a wrestler vs. boxer match becomes a special attraction garnering even more media attention than the main event pitting Austin against world champ Shawn. The match has worked Brawl for All rules, where Kurt's wrestling ability is hampered by having to wear boxing gloves. This gives Kurt an out for when he is knocked out by Tyson at WMXIV.
- As a make-good to Kurt for representing the WWF and wrestling against boxing and Tyson, Mr. McMahon hand-picks Kurt as the quintessential corporate champion and first challenger to new world champ Austin. Kurt gets the back-to-back PPV title shots that Dude Love got IRL, coming up short ultimately.
- Kurt enters his first KOTR tournament, and makes it to the finals in his hometown of Pittsburgh against Shamrock. Shamrock avenges his loss at SummerSlam the year prior, defeating Kurt by knockout in a callback to the Tyson loss at WrestleMania.
- The two big knockouts aggravate Kurt's broken neck issues, so he beats Austin to the punch by going under the knife for neck surgery and almost a full year on the sidelines to recover.
1999
- Kurt returns, arguably a little earlier than the doctor recommends, to pick up where he left off in time for the 1999 King of the Ring qualifiers. Kurt again makes his way to the finals (fuck Billy Gunn) and cements his return to action by winning the crown after defeating. Chyna of all people in the finals.
TO BE CONTINUED...
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Post by Ed on Mar 7, 2022 2:46:19 GMT
I always wanted Kurt & Steph to be together on TV.
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Post by 🤯 on Mar 7, 2022 3:24:01 GMT
I always wanted Kurt & Steph to be together on TV. They def had more or at least better chemistry than she & HHH ever did.
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Post by Baker on Mar 8, 2022 3:15:58 GMT
Started listening to Kurt's podcast with Conrad, and it almost immediately got me realizing Kurt is probably my #2 favorite wrestler of all time *checks notes* #6 here behind only Flair, Owen, Foley, Taker & Lawler. Not too shabby. One thing that always bothered me is Kurt never getting a lengthy 6 month+ "Best In The World" style title reign as THE guy. I'll be the middle ground between you* (who has him turning heel and feuding with Austin still in 96!) and Kilgore *Still like what you did though I'll keep your ideas of debuting him with hoopla at Summerslam and the Rocky style vignettes in September & October. Have him debut with a win over Lawler at IYH October. I'd also have him work with Lawler in USWA to gain some valuable experience. Survivor Series 96 sees him team with fellow noobs Rocky Maivia, Mark Henry & 2 Cold Scorpio. The New New Generation scores a clean sweep over four heels. Then he forms an "Olympians" tag team with Henry. They're being groomed for a huge push and work with Owen & Bulldog a lot on the house show circuit to gain more valuable experience. ^Nevermind. I think Henry was hurt. I wanted to hold Angle/Sultan off until Wrestlemania 13, but we'll bump that up to the Rumble with Angle going over. Sheik & Sultan turn on Backlund post-match. Angle makes the save. IYH February sees Angle & Backlund defeat Sultan & Sheik. Mania sees Angle defeat Billy Gunn or some other midcard heel. Getting bored (I saved the best for last). Skipping ahead.... Angle gets involved in the WWF vs. Hart Foundation war on the babyface side. He ends up in the Canadian Stampede 10 man tag. Wrestles Owen/Bulldog/Bret a lot on tv and house shows. Gets Patriot's spot against Bret in the September & October pay per views. Forms a Shooters stable alongside Shamrock & Blackman. Starts a slow burn heel turn when the crowd isn't as responsive to him as he feels they should be. Basically the same thing 🤯 did. The turn is complete at or around 'Mania 14. He takes Bret's 1997 spot as the last good guy in a world gone bad. Ends up as Vince's Corporate Champ in the spring. Feuds with vulgarian Steve Austin, freaky Foley, weirdo Taker, and all that Degeneration X rabble. Gets Kane's spot at KOTR 98. The rest is history as I borrow a Peteism about the cream always rising to the top. Only qualms I have with this is you now have Rock, Angle, Foley, HHH, and Kane all rising up the card at the same time. Something has to give. Guess it's buh bye Triple H. Oh well. He can always go play with his friends down in WCW if he doesn't like it. I get where you're coming from, but their roster was already stacked. Why bother developing a greenhorn who may or may not pan out when your roster already includes 80% of the biggest stars over the past decade + all those young new style wrestlers on the undercard? I don't think Kurt would have done as well in WCW due to politics and that aforementioned stacked roster. Steph ditching HHH for Kurt should have happened and it would have made Angle the biggest heel in the business. He beats HHH at Unforgiven with Steph's help. They refuse to give HHH a rematch. Angle beats Rock at No Mercy, defends against Taker at Survivor Series, and survives the Armageddon Hell In A Cell just like in real life. Meanwhile, they're still running with the HHH/Austin program. HHH is a heel against everybody else, but a face against the hated Kurt Angle. Royal Rumble sees Angle beat Austin in a ripoff of the Summerslam 97 finish with HHH in the Michaels role. No Way Out sees Rock dethrone Kurt and HHH beat Austin just like in real life. Now Austin has lost to Angle & HHH. He sure as heckfire can't lose to Rock at 'Mania as well. So his heel turn has a little extra oomph. Wrestlemania also sees HHH finally get revenge on Kurt & Steph with The Game standing tall at the conclusion of a match 6 months in the making. Commissioner Foley can give HHH the match. It only costs him his job. Or have HHH put his career on the line if he loses. We all know there's always a way out of any stipulation. Put Taker against...I dunno Jericho. Or maybe have the Brothers of Destruction go over Rikishi & Haku in a 5 minute quickie. It would have got over and we'd end up getting a Hogan/Angle American Heroes superteam. Big Pete wrote "Tiger Ali Singh would have dollar signs for eyes." I'll go one better with the admission that I am blatantly stealing this from a 15-20 year old fanfic I read on some long dead forum. "Suicide Bomber" Sabu comes in with a super heel push. Wreaks havoc. Interferes in many matches. Puts many wrestlers through tables. Does the job to Kurt in a high profile match at the 02 Rumble or Mania 18. Bolded would have been much better than what we got but I'm not sure I'd want to run back to back to back Angle/HHH 'Mania matches. No glorious JBL title reign Disaster Only major changes off the top of my head are Brock holding the title continuously from WM 19-No Way Out and Eddie would have to find a new Mania opponent. He either gets busted for Wellness violations in the wake of the Benoit murders or carries on doing what he had been doing the previous few years as a guy you can plug into PPV mains or throw the title on in a pinch. At some point he finally does get that lengthy Best In The World style title reign I long hoped for. But it comes a few years too late.
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