I just don't see a strong argument to claim that a patriarchy exists in America or in modern western society.    But I am willing to listen and have my mind changed.  

If the patriarchy existed the birth rate wouldn't be plummeting in the west.

Jan 3, 2018 9:08:21 GMT @ness said:

If the patriarchy existed the birth rate wouldn't be plummeting in the west.

I'll bite.  First I would love to know the correlation you see here.  Second.  From what I was able to research the birth rate in America as in average births per woman is now equal to 1985.  I would have thought this was due to education about reproductivity, access to conception and abortion.  Education would be another long-term factor I would think changed birth rates.  As more women finish college, most don't get pregnant until afterward.  Some even forego pregnancy for their careers for a bit.  In the past, you would get pregnant earlier as education ended earlier.  The increase in education lowers the years of viability.



www.google.com/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_dyn_tfrt_in&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=sp_dyn_tfrt_in&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=region:EAS:NAC&ifdim=region&tdim=true&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false






But I am interested in this.  I have an open mind.  Change my mind.

Are we talking about patriarchy in the most general sense of the word, or patriarchy as defined by feminist theory?

I'm not well-versed in the latter, but in the more broad sense of the word, I think can see somewhat of a patriarchy in the U.S.

Males typically seem to dominate politics, government (or at least the military and police forces that enforce the will of the government), sports, entertainment, Silicon Valley, the C suites of corporate America, Wall Street, wealth, etc.

Granted, I can only say this anecdotally right now since I don't have numbers at hand and don't feel like digging them up. But I can count the number of female presidents on one hand, and I vaguely recall the Forbes list of wealthiest people always being dominated number-wise by men. The only female CEO/Silicon Valley exec names I know are because they were championed as the exceptions to the rule.

Again, all anecdotal really... But there's enough anecdotes there that I could totally buy into there being a patriarchy in some sense. If I'm way off base with understanding what a patriarchy is though, you'll have to excuse me and maybe illuminate me if I'm to try adding anything else.

Jan 3, 2018 14:42:45 GMT 🤯 said:

Are we talking about patriarchy in the most general sense of the word, or patriarchy as defined by feminist theory?

I'm not well-versed in the latter, but in the more broad sense of the word, I think can see somewhat of a patriarchy in the U.S.

Males typically seem to dominate politics, government (or at least the military and police forces that enforce the will of the government), sports, entertainment, Silicon Valley, the C suites of corporate America, Wall Street, wealth, etc.

Granted, I can only say this anecdotally right now since I don't have numbers at hand and don't feel like digging them up. But I can count the number of female presidents on one hand, and I vaguely recall the Forbes list of wealthiest people always being dominated number-wise by men. The only female CEO/Silicon Valley exec names I know are because they were championed as the exceptions to the rule.

Again, all anecdotal really... But there's enough anecdotes there that I could totally buy into there being a patriarchy in some sense. If I'm way off base with understanding what a patriarchy is though, you'll have to excuse me and maybe illuminate me if I'm to try adding anything else.

I hear you, the numbers do seem to play a factor.  On the other end of the spectrum, men also lead hugely in homelessness, suicide, workplace death and incarceration.  I think part of my question is kind of what you said, is the leadership anecdotal? or is there a patriarchal system in place to keep men on top?  Seemingly there could be one to keep men down based on the homeless, workplace death, suicide and incarceration.  

I think in some respects I am looking for systems, laws or structures that lead to benefit men over women.  In maybe your examples to lead in politics, government, silicon valley, wall street etc.

Sports is a whole different kettle of fish.

An interesting argument can be made for women preferring a patriarchal society, it's just now that they vote into power more socially minded governments with increased welfare and control to take the place of individual men.

Here is an interesting notion I just learned of when it comes to birth rate and men and how they feel in society.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbivore_men

Society views men as disposable so I'd never fault anyone who opts out such as the herbivores or their western counterparts of a different name.