May 31, 2022 1:02:46 GMT KITN said:

Okay but as a fan, I don't give a fuck about buyrates or drawing gate. If that was the case, no one should ever give a fuck about indie wrestling because they'll always draw smaller gates than even a WWE house show.

The discussion isn’t who is your favourite, it’s who is the Greatest of all Time. You have to factor that in.

Yeah if we were ignoring drawing cash Kingston all day baby!!!

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Also was an interesting chat the other day in Matt's channel on whether or the not the Hardyz have a serious claim to the greatest tag team of all time. Matt says yes as they have longevity, influence, won belts in every major fed they worked for, have draw power and have several critically acclaimed matches.

Real question would be if not the Hardyz who else has a claim? Most great tag teams break up and do not get back together, have one member overdose or the members are best known for singles work. Only teams I see on that level were the Wild Samoans and Rock and Roll Express. Unless both of those groups the Hardyz can work solo if needed and get over too.

That said, Jeff holds the Hardyz back from being the GOAT in my book. I give it to the Rock and Roll Express. Guys made tag wrestling an art.

It's clearly the Young Bucks c, based purely on t-shirt sales.

Dudes bought their houses with that sweet t-shirt cash.

We did a tag team countdown not that long ago. Even though Hardys have them over longevity, Bockwinkel and Stevens were my #1 pick based purely on AWA being the best booked tag scene where all the tag teams were legitimate draws. Hardys were always a mid-card act in the WWE and the only time they were a draw were on the indies/TNA when it may as well been an indie.

You could make an argument for the Bucks but even then they kind of bury themselves in their own promotion.

FYI, we had a Chris Jericho GOAT discussion a few years back: pwcom.proboards.com/thread/2462/chris-jericho-greatest-wrestler-generation

Kilgore comparing 80/90s WWF stars to 80s/90s NFL QBs is an all-timer.

What exactly does/did he excel at over other wrestler?

He wasn't even the best wrestler in The Thrillseekers.

Even in his prime a few years later, he was a step behind Benoit, Eddie, Angle, HBK and even as a pure 'sports entertainer' The Rock, Austin and Hunter for the year 2000 were easily the top performers. Today, names like Danielson, Styles, Brock, Edge, Roman are better performers now than Jericho 15 years ago.

On the mic, there's countless others who were on par with Jericho. Punk is an example. Rock, Hunter, Foley, Flair, Dusty, John Cena...

An overall attraction.. Undertaker, Hogan, Rock, Austin, Cena have him pegged. He's never been 'the man'

He's potentially better at one thing than most, convincing a younger generation of his greatest.

Jericho's claim to goat a lot seems to go on reinventing himself getting a various array of characters over. Perhaps it was his ability to temporarily walk away from Vince (05 into Fozzy, VH1, returning and doing podcasts before they mandated you start one upon finishing wrestling school, and leeching off the elite's success to remain relevant) that gives him extra points. Been around for a while and while he certain had periods of staleness, he never really overstayed his welcome mostly because he was simply never the guy.

Bret Hart

May 31, 2022 23:00:26 GMT @ness said:

Jericho's claim to goat a lot seems to go on reinventing himself getting a various array of characters over. Perhaps it was his ability to temporarily walk away from Vince (05 into Fozzy, VH1, returning and doing podcasts before they mandated you start one upon finishing wrestling school, and leeching off the elite's success to remain relevant) that gives him extra points. Been around for a while and while he certain had periods of staleness, he never really overstayed his welcome mostly because he was simply never the guy.

That would suggest that nothing he's done is timeless or really stuck and takes away from his claim to being the GOAT. If there's a constant need to reinvent the wheel, something ain't working.

Don't get me wrong, character development is a good thing. But that ain't character development.

I am as befuddled by this thread as I was by Big Pete's one a few years back.

Sure, you will find individuals who are massive fans of someone and might call them the best or whatever. But the idea that Chris Jericho as THE greatest is an argument being made by enough people to even make it a thing is pretty astonishing to me.

He is levels beneath the greatest in terms of ring work, promos and star power/drawing, whichever angle you want to look at this from.

I like Chris Jericho. But it's Chris Jericho.

It speaks to the popularity of the Monday Night Wars. I believe the rational is that Jericho was right up there with Eddie, Benoit, Malenko, Rey and Kurt as one of the best in-ring guys. However he also had undeniable charisma that allowed him to stand toe to toe with Austin, Rock, HBK and he's still kicking goals all these years later. It usually quitens down after awhile because his worst instincts kick in and he ends up burying himself but then he'll find another gear and get the fans invested again like his feud with Eddie Kingston.

Watching the SmarkMark15 aka Joe video I was disappointed that he skimmed over major points. He essentially just said he couldn't hang with Eddie, Benoit, Malenko, Rey etc. which is a strong opinion to have and required a stronger argument. I think he could have made a separate video really going over that because it seemed like he spent more time pointing out that trash talking your opponent is actually a bad thing.

I can accept that he's not as proficient in the ring but would really need it broken down how he couldn't hang with these guys. For mine, he always held up his own end of the bargain.

Agree with the GOAT argument being an impossible one because of all the factors and the massive subjectivity that comes into play.

My thoughts on Jericho: He is one of the most well rounded and complete wrestlers I have ever seen. His versatility in so many ways like being able to be face/heel , his ability to work believably anywhere on the card his matches and even his promos. I think he is the type of guy that I would always want on my roster as a booker because you can literally put him anywhere and he will be awesome. You can't say that about a lot of wrestlers - even the ones with greater resumes than him. |

If he were a baseball player he'd be a 5 tool prospect.

A football player he would be Deebo Samuel. You can line him up anywhere on offense and he's going to be productive.

In basketball he's the guy who can play and defend multiple positions and always be able to handle the switch. Kind of like Giannis.


Also I hate the idea of having to make up hyperbole about a guy or a guys career in order to try and make a point. It invalidates everything. You see it in the Lebron/MJ debate all the time and it makes both sides sound incredibly stupid.

Without a doubt, Jericho is the GOAT out of the two.

Jun 1, 2022 13:16:43 GMT sandylea said:

Without a doubt, Jericho is the GOAT out of the two.

You said this just to piss System off huh.

May 30, 2022 13:44:18 GMT @ness said:

Not as much as Jim Neidhart, the true goat.

Jim had the goat eater. DB look like something straight out of Narnia. Half man half goat.  I bet he does not have feet but the cloven hooves. 


    

Jun 1, 2022 22:43:32 GMT bodyslam said:

May 30, 2022 13:44:18 GMT @ness said:

Not as much as Jim Neidhart, the true goat.

Jim had the goat eater. DB look like something straight out of Narnia. Half man half goat.  I bet he does not have feet but the cloven hooves. 


    

Probably why his dropkicks and flying knees are so effective. Is goat simulator not simply DB on the indies?

bodyslam, settled it. Jericho can't be greater than an actual goat.

My take on Jericho is that he is the equivalent of a stat compiler, getting himself in the discussion of the greats because he stuck around so long, even has better stats the other greats. In baseball terms, Jericho is like a Bert Blyleven type, 287 wins, a great number. That's Top 27, the 24 ahead of him are in the 300 club, extraordinary pitchers. However, Blyleven was only an all star twice, never even close to the best at his position, never even a single remarkable season. Just good, and steady, for a very long time. That's Jericho.

Then you have the Austin's of the world, Sandy Koufax types. Only 165 wins. 122 short of Blyleven. But Koufax had a 4 year run that is the greatest 4 year run ever. Most would argue that in those 4 years, Sandy Koufax was the best pitcher ever, and those 4 years easily surpass Blyleven's 20 years of good and steady. Honestly, I think everybody would argue that. And, that's Austin. That might even be The Rock, too.

And then you have guys like Hogan and Flair, who have a little Koufax in them, but for long periods of time. And then it becomes totally laughable that Jericho would be in the discussion at all.

As for Jericho vs. Danielson: Neither are close, it just seems like a silly debate to be having in the first place. I like Jericho more (his 1998 WCW run is one of my favorites ever), but Danielson is in the discussion for best workrate ever, where Jericho isn't in the discussion for best anything. So I'm leaning towards Danielson. But Jericho's good and solid in the big leagues during the peak of wrestling is more impactful than Danielson being the best pure wrestler in ROH. So I see the argument for Jericho. Bottom line, neither are the GOAT, or close to it, so I'm not going to think any harder about any of this.

Jun 1, 2022 4:16:17 GMT Da Gr8t I Is said:

Bret Hart

The best there is, there best there was, the best there ever will be.

Jun 1, 2022 8:51:36 GMT Strobe said:

Sure, you will find individuals who are massive fans of someone and might call them the best or whatever. But the idea that Chris Jericho as THE greatest is an argument being made by enough people to even make it a thing is pretty astonishing to me.

He is levels beneath the greatest in terms of ring work, promos and star power/drawing, whichever angle you want to look at this from.

I like Chris Jericho. But it's Chris Jericho.

All this. Also agree with Kilgore 's post as usual. 

His AEW run complicates things a little* but for the longest time I had two easy arguments whenever this nonsensical "Jericho=GOAT" argument came up...

1. Jericho was never THE top guy. He was barely, if ever, a Top 5 guy in any promotion he worked for. For the record this is also why I scratch my head when people argue Savage or Rock as the GOAT. Rock & Savage weren't even the top guys in their own eras! Kilgore once called them the "greatest second bananas of all time" and I agree. But they're still second bananas.

2. Jericho is Edge + an additional few years of world traveling midcard work. I don't see anyone, not even WWE only people, calling Edge a GOAT contender.

Also agree with Kilgore that Jericho was never the best in the business at any one thing. He's the ultimate B+ player....the guy who works with the top guy.

*So Jericho finally got to be the top guy (I think?) on the cusp of 50. Still not enough to bump him up from #60 or whatever to #1.

EDIT: Just remembered Jericho's awesome 2008 when I did think he was the best all arounder in the business. Cut the best promos. Was the best heel. Had the best feud (with Michaels) and a large chunk of the best matches that year (with Michaels as well). That is enough bump him a few spots on my GOAT rankings. But you know what? I also thought Edge was the best all arounder in the business in 2006. So that comparison remains valid.


EDIT #2: Posting about Michaels in the AEW thread reminded me that HBK was actually my MVP/choice for best all arounder in the business in 2008. Jericho was a really strong #2 though. Really more of a 1b to Shawn's 1a.

I will give the content creator credit. He did clarify. Choosing Danielson as his G.O.A.T was based on the criteria that he values in a wrestler. It wasn't like he was trying to talk about drawing power & things of that nature because he doesn't value those things.

Jun 2, 2022 0:03:11 GMT Ed said:

I will give the content creator credit. He did clarify. Choosing Danielson as his G.O.A.T was based on the criteria that he values in a wrestler. It wasn't like he was trying to talk about drawing power & things of that nature because he doesn't value those things.

Exactly. I think this point has been lost in the conversation, which is fine. It's natural to include drawing power in a GOAT discussion.

From a pure performance perspective: working a match, cutting a promo, engaging the audience, having a solid character, I would say Danielson is at least as good as Jericho. While I think the author of the video is a little too biased against Jericho, his points have a lot of validity.

Jun 1, 2022 14:21:55 GMT UT said:

Jun 1, 2022 13:16:43 GMT sandylea said:

Without a doubt, Jericho is the GOAT out of the two.

You said this just to piss System off huh.

System is easily triggered hahahaha