May 26, 2022 6:02:41 GMT KITN said:

I was going to watch this, but it's 70 minutes long, so... yeah. Need to book in some time for that one...

At least it has chapters!

I played it in the background. Turns out it's a great background activity. I could pay attention to his soothing voice while doing internet errands. Clearly a well-researched and well-thought out video essay. For the most part I agree with his sentiments, but can't help but feel he's letting his bias against Jericho get to him, particularly when talking about his matches. Also completely ignoring drawing power is a strange stance to take when arguing against GOAT.

However he had some great points, particularly about how Jericho's promos have essentially been the same for 20 years, as have his characters, most of his applauded reinventions being little more than surface-level adjustments to his attire and catchphrases.

Another astute observation is that Jericho was never the best part of the greatest Chris Jericho matches. He was never the main reason for his great matches. Perhaps more contentious, but the way he presented it I couldn't help but agree.

I never thought Jericho was close to the GOAT so in my case he was preaching to the converted, but still a fascinating video.

He also made a video arguing for Daniel Bryan being the GOAT. If you completely ignore drawing power, as he probably does, I'd be inclined to agree.

I think he's a bit harsh on Jericho's reinventions. Yeah, it is a little redundant but he puts more effort than most into adding to his character

DB cannot surpass Jericho because Jericho started earlier and never hurt his neck. Jericho more than others redefines himself and mixes up his in ring style. Also if you get into places worked, Jericho did WAR, FMW, SMW, WCW, ECW, ect. DB can never match that as that era does not exist anymore. At best he gets to Jericho's level.

Jericho beat Austin and Rock in the same night.

Sure DB beat Evolution but c'mon now. One is a nice career highlight, the other is tombstone worthy.

May 27, 2022 22:01:28 GMT c said:

DB cannot surpass Jericho because Jericho started earlier and never hurt his neck. Jericho more than others redefines himself and mixes up his in ring style. Also if you get into places worked, Jericho did WAR, FMW, SMW, WCW, ECW, ect. DB can never match that as that era does not exist anymore. At best he gets to Jericho's level.

This response was originally going to be much more caustic. But I caught myself, because I don't want to be an asshole. At the end of the day, it's just wrestling, it's not real-world stuff that makes me upset like in Off Topic. 

*A-hem* 

Saying that Jericho is better because he wrestled in multiple promotions feels disingenuous when Bryan himself has wrestled all over the place. Multiple Japanese promotions, promotions in Germany and the UK, basically every promotion worth caring about in the US independents for nearly a decade before going to WWE, where he had to change his style dramatically. By his own words, he had to accept that WWE was "a parody of pro wrestling" to adapt. And then when he left and went to AEW, his style visibly changed again. 

Meanwhile, I don't think you can point out a big difference between Jericho's wrestling style from the time he became The Ayatollah of Rock and Rollah in WCW to now, except that he's gotten older, heavier, and slower. And that's not to shame him, that's just the passage of time. And also, just, straight-up alcoholism. 

DB is one of the best in terms of ring work, but there is more to a career than in ring matches. And even with that, ZSJ is smoking what DB did at his best.

Sure DB did a lot of stuff in indy feds, but while he was doing that Jericho was in SMW, CMLL, NJPW, WCW and ECW. These are on different levels from PWG, RoH, Dragon Gate, wXw and FWA. Jericho did not need to work wXw or FWA as when he toured Germany or the UK he did in arenas with WCW or WWE.

Also while DB made it to the top of feds, Jericho was reached greater peaks in the same feds they worked. DB was a WWE champion, Jericho the first undisputed champion beating the two greatest wrestlers at the time in one night. In AEW Jericho was a champion who was the face of company. Bryan is fighting in the midcard. In Japan Bryan was not really even promoted, Jericho fought Okada and Naito for titles.

Plus is involved in a TV, runs a podcast related to wrestling and runs wrestling cruises.

I love DB, and been following him since 2001, since King of the Indies, but he is no Jericho. Jericho some considered one of the greatest before DB even had his breakout match at Era of Honor Begins.

Someone may take the claim from Jericho, but DB is unlikely to do it with his past injuries.

Wa are arguing is for who is the best pro-wrestling performer, so ring work and promos combined. You're arguing for star power/drawing power. It's hard to argue against Jericho in that respect. Still, it's worth breaking down because this topic is interesting.

May 29, 2022 7:57:36 GMT c said:

And even with that, ZSJ is smoking what DB did at his best.

Zack Sabre Jr. is my favourite wrestler in the world right now, almost entirely because of his ring work, and even I disagree with this statement. Nothing anyone has done can smoke what Danielson did at his best in the ring. Even now, some of his bigger matches in AEW (vs Hangman, vs Moxley) are right up there with Zack's matches.

May 29, 2022 7:57:36 GMT c said:

Also while DB made it to the top of feds, Jericho was reached greater peaks in the same feds they worked. DB was a WWE champion, Jericho the first undisputed champion beating the two greatest wrestlers at the time in one night. In AEW Jericho was a champion who was the face of company. Bryan is fighting in the midcard. In Japan Bryan was not really even promoted, Jericho fought Okada and Naito for titles.

Unreasonable comparisons.

Bryan is a 4-time WWE Champion and 1-time World Heavyweight Champion. Jericho is a 1-time Undisputed WWF Champion, 3-time World Heavyweight Champion, 2-time WCW World Heavyweight Champion. More or less equal. Daniel Bryan pretty much had an entire Wrestlemania dedicated to him, where he wrestled two matches, beating a legend in the first match and winning the WWE Championship in the main event. What was Jericho's biggest Wrestlemania success? Technically he did have the last match at WM18, but we all know Rock vs Hogan was the true main event. Don't think Jericho has main evented a Mania since then, but he has had high profile matches. I'd say in terms of WWE success they are similar.

AEW. When AEW first started Jericho was clearly their biggest and only real big star, so it made sense. If it had been the other way round, Danielson leaving WWE to join AEW while Jericho stayed in WWE, you bet Danielson would have been the first AEW Champion and probably would have even done a better job, certainly in terms of the match quality.

Danielson joined AEW when it already had a ton of ex-WWE/NXT stars, and some of their homegrown talent had become main eventers, most notably Hangman Page. But let's not forget that he was still, to some extent, hotshotted to the top despite AEW having a much more stacked roster than when Jericho started. Danielson's first match in AEW was a time limit draw with then-World Champion Kenny Omega. Then he fought Hangman Page twice, Page's first defense as champion.

Sure Danielson is in the midcard now, but so is Jericho.

Japan - Yes, Jericho certainly takes that one. Strolled into NJPW and fought the biggest names in the company in the company's biggest matches. Omega at Wrestle Kingdom. Tanahashi at Wrestle Kingdom. Okada at Dominion. Naito at Dominion. Absolutely a massive deal. Danielson was in NOAH for a while, don't know the exact dates, but that was in the dark ages of Japanese wrestling. Let's see what happens when Danielson enters the G1 Climax this year. I really hope that happens.

May 29, 2022 7:57:36 GMT c said:

Plus is involved in a TV, runs a podcast related to wrestling and runs wrestling cruises.

I suppose these are only tangentially related to performing as a pro-wrestler, but they are certainly valid and significant contributions to the industry. Also his three (or is it four?) autobiographies were pretty successful.

May 29, 2022 9:00:11 GMT Emperor said:

Wa are arguing is for who is the best pro-wrestling performer, so ring work and promos combined. You're arguing for star power/drawing power. It's hard to argue against Jericho in that respect. Still, it's worth breaking down because this topic is interesting.

I am arguing about everything combined.  DB excels in the ring.  One of the best.  But he only got great on the mic and with a character at the tail end of WWE, and simply put did not come early enough to to have the opportunities that Jericho did.  Also I do not think will have the extra decades to wrestle after his prime that Jericho is getting due to the neck / nerve issue.  At best he is chasing Jericho.   In WWE even if he is nearly Jericho's equal, that would not make him better.  

That said, if DB can go for 15 more years or so, then yeah, he may beat out Jericho when he tours Japan then returns to WWE.  But I do not think he plans to go that long and I assume is wrapping up his career with a tour of Japan, some fun in AEW and one last big money WWE run doing the Rumble to win the title at WM.  I see him doing his dream matches, getting paid one last time, then becoming a trainer somewhere.  I just do not see old man Bryan limping around the ring past his prime.

So for me, it is a matter of whether DB goes for five more years or 15.  And how intense he goes these final years.  One or two matches on par with his RoH work will not leave him as the greatest.  He does a dozen or so before he retires, then things will change.  Moreso since he can work the mic finally and build a fued, something he really learned way too late.

One big thing I see about Jericho though is he was at the right place at the right time above all.  He got to work the attitude era, so he started on top of the modern era.  Also he got signed real early to WCW so he did not have the decade many do on the indy scene.  Within a year he was in Japan.  Within two Mexico.  Then within 5 ECW and 6 WCW.  Instead of working the Tri-State or West Coast circuits he went international extremely fast.  Also the guys who were in the feds with him were great.  He got to pair with Benoit in most feds, Eddie, Juvi, Malanko, ect.  Then in WWE he got to work Austin, Angle, HBK and Rock.  It was just right time, right moment to get these opportunities that were not there for DB.  Then in AEW he basically picks who he wants to fight.  DB however gets stuck with the lesser guys of WWE for most of his run, then comes to AEW and picks who he wants.  DB however has to play catchup and fight his way to WWE, fight his way to the top of the roster, and now in AEW still fight for his spot.  And this fighting costs him time in the ring to do great things as he is given BS matches with few changes to really steal the show.

Danielson has always been great at character work. Just look at his ROH Championship run. Sure he wasn't cutting promos every week but the promos he did cut were great and the reason he was so successful is because during his matches he's able to get his personality and character over with the crowd. Not only ROH, but less serious promotions like Chikara and PWG.

You're right about Jericho hitting his prime in the Attitude Era, and to be fair he succeeded and became a top star in the same company as Rock, Austin, Angle, HHH, Undertaker, so on. That's a huge point in Jericho's favour and certainly something Danielson can't ever claim. He did earn that right to instantly be pushed as a legendary top star in NJPW and AEW. And you are right that Danielson always had to struggle from underneath when joining a new company, but he's a lot more consistent than Jericho. Even when he was midcard in WWE he was consistently one of the best performers. And most of his time in WWE was at the main event level.

Meanwhile Jericho was very on and off for the rest of his WWE career. Obvious career highlight in the late 2000s with his serious character and HBK feud. But what was Jericho doing from 2003-2007? Not very much as I recall. And after serious Jericho phase ended, what then? He had the List gimmick and the Kevin Owens feuds, which were memorable if not all time great feuds. But to be fair he never strayed too far from the top of the card, he was always relevant.

I think in terms of the pure performance art of pro-wrestling, Danielson destroys Jericho, but Jericho does win in the more objective qualities like drawing power, mainstream success, star power, and so on, although I think it's closer than most would believe.

DB depending on the rest of his career may have a career and be close, but Jericho is going to be hard beat. Sure he had down periods, and did Fozzy but that allowed him to cycle his gimmick and stay fresh. He just was doing great work for so long it hard for others to catch him.

Jericho at his best IMO rivals DB in the ring too. Jericho's Japanese work was very, very good. And he was amazing in the Thrillseeker days. He is just the best all around IMO.

That said, there is a real case to be made, that Jericho is not the GOAT at all, and the real GOAT is the Funker. He was a better talker than Jericho, better in the ring than Jericho, a bigger draw than Jericho at peak, one of the most extreme wrestlers to grace this planet doing deathmatch shit on TV and was active 52 years.


Jericho may have get heat at times, but he will never trying to remove Lawler's eye with a broken piece of wood, or choking Flair with a plastic bag heat.  

Unsure but Funk may have invented the cinematic match in Memphis with Lawler with their empty arena match.   

King has a claim to the GOAT as well.  Flair and Misawa would I would say are in that circle as well.  

Thought we had agreed it was Cena? <_<

Cena does not have the longevity IMO. He left too early, like the Rock.

Cena I think is destined for Rock levels of greatness in Hollywood. No going back after Peacemaker.

I think saying SMW was bigger than an indie like ROH is kind of ridiculous, since they were about the same size. 

Anyhow, since the Jericho video started this conversation, here is the counterpoint video Emperor mentioned. 

Danielson kind of looks like a goat.

Not as much as Jim Neidhart, the true goat.

May 29, 2022 15:10:34 GMT @ness said:

Thought we had agreed it was Cena? <_<

Please, John Cena isn't even on the same level as the BOAT.

These are probably two of my all time favorite wrestlers and have been from way back, but I don't know that you can compare them. It's kind of like comparing apples and oranges. Both fruit, but different fruit.

It depends what the criteria are. If you are looking at best WRESTLER, then I'd say BD is one of the best I've ever seen.  If you are looking at the biggest wrestling star, then I think Jericho has the edge. 

Jericho was present and working the big leagues during arguably the most popular time in recent wrestling history and stood toe to toe against/with legends like The Rock, SCSA, HHH, Taker all in their prime. Chris Jericho is really the only one from that era able to still work at a high level with guys half his age.  I think the biggest thing is Jericho was instantly charismatic.  As a heel or a face, he's entertaining as hell.  BD, while an amazing wrestler, really had to learn to be charismatic.  It's the same thing people think of with Bret vs Shawn.  Bret was a work horse and amazing wrestler, but the mic wasn't always his friend.  HBK had that over him in spades unfortunately.  

I see Danielson working the same way Jericho is now, at 51 still able to work at a high level and putting over younger talent. He became the IT man when they needed one, but he's probably more in line with an AJ Styles then a Chris Jericho. 

Real GOAT is Funk. Guy brought southern hardcore wrestling to the mainstream. Few guys can say they popularized a style of wrestling on a national level like he did. His career was 52 years, he mentored countless guys, worked every major fed, sold out arenas, was one of the best on the mic and routinely did things that were off the fall in terms of innovation. He was also humble enough to never want to be the champ, but be the guy the champ beat to look good.

Conversations like this are fun but highly subjective. Personally neither of them would be close to the top on my own subjective criteria. Jericho was never the greatest worker although he was a good promo. His feud with Shawn Michaels was his best work and he certainly had a great career. Danielson just isn’t a big enough character although he does have the all-time level in-ring work. Terry Funk is closer to the top than either of them, Lawler is a good shout too. Steve Austin although there’s the question of longevity. Eddie Guerrero but did was he a big enough star. Harley Race is a name I’ll throw in there too.

Yeah this is so subjective. Austin and Eddie would likely be much easier to give this label to if they got the career's they should have.

Lawler, Race and Funk were from eras where you did not get stale because you were not on TV full time. You would come and go through territories. Guys today do not get that luxury. Jericho with Fozzy comes to the closest. Otherwise today if you are off TV for a while it is due to injury. This matters a lot IMO as it hurts guys who stay in WWE while they are getting stale with bad writing waiting for a hot feud.

Also hard to judge people while their career is still going. Danielson we just do not know if he has a couple years of left or a dozen. He is doing his best work right now, so it really does matter here. A decade at this level, he may very well take the title. He is in the best shape of his career, doing the best character and mic work of his career, and some of the best work of his career right now. Sure a lot of this is Regal who is wrestling still through him as he sees Bryan as his legacy. So for DB, it really is wait and see what he does. He still had a lot of names on his dream match list, and the Forbidden Door is opening, and we all know he wants ZSJ. Likely gonna see DB hit a new level.

Jericho > Danielson for me.

It's easily Undertaker.

May 30, 2022 16:04:15 GMT Todd said:

Conversations like this are fun but highly subjective

This.
GOAT is an overused term in wrestling discussion. Yeah, I'm guilty of this as well. My issue with determining the GOAT in wrestling is what's the criteria? Star power/drawing ability? Ring work/match quality? A combination of both? Can't forget about mic skills/charisma either. Longevity must also play a factor.

If we're talking star power/drawing ability I'd go Hogan followed by Austin.
Ring work I'd go Flair, Michaels, Bret.
Throw in those two factors+ mic skills/charisma (Rock, Flair, Austin, Lawler, Foley, Funk, Hogan & Savage territory) and I'd be true to my 1996 self by going Flair, Lawler, Funk for the overall GOAT. Teenage mark me knew what was up. 

But oh wait. I'm obviously biased towards "my era"- 80s-00s US wrestling. Fans of Jim Londos, Bruno, Rikidozan, El Santo, Gorgeous George, and others would certainly object to my star power/drawing GOAT list. Fans of Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada, Jumbo, Bryan, Tanahashi, Liger, and others would scoff at my ring work GOAT list. Then you'd have Buddy Rogers fans and more objecting to my combined GOAT list.
Arguing over the GOAT can be a fun argument at times, but there will never be a definitive answer even if you break it down into specific criteria. 

Fwiw I'd go with Bryan over Jericho on an overall GOAT list for a variety of reasons I may be back later to explain. Wouldn't put either guy in the tippy top tier though. 

Jericho said it himself, " 5 stars is great, but did it make money? "

Take AJ Styles v Christopher Daniels v Samoa Joe from Unbreakable 2005. This match received a 5 star rating from Uncle Dave. This was the 2nd match in the United States in 8 years to receive 5 stars.

It was the main event, it drew 770 people to an arena than held twice that number. It allegedly drew some where between 10-15,000 PPV buys - worldwide.

For all the later acclaim, it made little money.

So, the point being you can be a great wrestler, but making money is the real KPI. I doubt anyone has thanked either Danielson or Jericho for the house in WWE or AEW.

May 31, 2022 0:08:59 GMT Baker said:

May 30, 2022 16:04:15 GMT Todd said:

Conversations like this are fun but highly subjective

This.
GOAT is an overused term in wrestling discussion. Yeah, I'm guilty of this as well. My issue with determining the GOAT in wrestling is what's the criteria? Star power/drawing ability?
. 

The whole term GOAT (Greatest of all Time) annoys me immensely as people will use it like “Lebron is one of the GOATs”.

There’s only one hence the term: greatest of ALL TIME.


As for the thread, easily Jericho

NATH45 exactly, I don’t know how they can argue drawing power doesn’t matter considering Pro Wrestling evolved from a hustle that’s sole purpose was to make money.

Okay but as a fan, I don't give a fuck about buyrates or drawing gate. If that was the case, no one should ever give a fuck about indie wrestling because they'll always draw smaller gates than even a WWE house show.

May 31, 2022 1:02:46 GMT KITN said:

Okay but as a fan, I don't give a fuck about buyrates or drawing gate. If that was the case, no one should ever give a fuck about indie wrestling because they'll always draw smaller gates than even a WWE house show.

If you were to look at the business from a kayfabe perspective and pretend it was a legitimate sport - most independent wrestling would be the equivalent of Sidney Deane hustling a man out of $10 and declaring himself the best in the world, despite Michael Jordan being in his prime and leading a Chicago Bulls dynasty.

Sure, it's fun. But it's not on that same level.