In the past I have been critical on the martial arts and martial arts schools.  Currently I am reading a book looking at one man's history through a gym that could be compared to a cult.  As I assume, some of you are familiar with McDojo or Bulshido or seeing grown men flip at the slightest touch of Steven Segal you have seen victims of these cults.  Most don't see them as victims but they have been soaked of 10s of thousands of dollars and fed malarkey.   Even on the light side of being taught defense techniques that only put you in danger or only work in tournaments there is a gaslighting in what you are getting out of the lessons.

"Almost everyone who walks into a martial arts school will cite the same reason for walking in: They want to defend themselves.

It's often not true.

What they want are other things that either don't understand or don't want to admit. They want a positive self-image. Self defense is a cover story no one will question"
paraphrased from the book.

When you look at it through this light.  Martial art gyms prey on the weak.  Just like a cult.  The shedding of identity process of going to the locker room and switching to a uniform so nothing of your identity outside of the cult is appealing as much as it also makes you more prone.

If you ever saw video of someone who is getting beat up by a regional MMA guy because he believes his chi energy can protect him, you have seen a victim of a cult.

The other deep dive is the access that they have to children.  Mothers and Fathers hand their kids off to someone who hasn't had a background check and tell their children to listen and be obedient, subserviently to some rando.  Seems like a recipe for boy scout / catholic church failure.

I feel like no one really critically looks at martial arts.  Aside for one episode of Penn and Tellers bullshit.  My fav stat from that episode.
"According to the FBI 1.3 million were victims of violent crime in 2008. That's 1 in 220 were possibly injured. According to George Washington University the probability of getting injured while taking Martial Arts is 100%. Students average 4 injuries per year. Meaning you are 220 times more likely to be injured in a Martial Arts class than defending yourself in a violent crime. Something to chew on when you take your kids to Martial Arts classes."

The MMA guys is Xu Xiaodong. He is fucking awesome.

Here is him fighting a Wing Chun Master.



And here is the Tai Chi fight.

Him dropping a Kung Fu master.

Great video on some of the fake masters. We did a deep dive on this shit in a stream I follow with a guy who used to train in MMA that is into MMA guys fucking up fake masters.  This shows people playing along with the master's BS too.

Back in the day there was some dude on the Joe Rogan Podcast that was super into Aikido (which is 90% useless in real fighting scenarios), and Rogan was showing clips of an Aikido master that clearly had students taking dives, just cartoonish stuff, bordering on supernatural, and the guest was 100% serious, like, you don't understand, Joe, this is legit. One of the few times Rogan was by far smarter than his guest on a topic. But the certainty the Aikido guy had, watching something that was so clearly fake, yet being convinced it was real, is really eye opening how cultish fake martial arts and fake masters can be. This dude was probably relatively smart in every other area, yet totally brainwashed about Aikido.

Aug 1, 2022 22:56:50 GMT Kilgore said:

Back in the day there was some dude on the Joe Rogan Podcast that was super into Aikido (which is 90% useless in real fighting scenarios), and Rogan was showing clips of an Aikido master that clearly had students taking dives, just cartoonish stuff, bordering on supernatural, and the guest was 100% serious, like, you don't understand, Joe, this is legit. One of the few times Rogan was by far smarter than his guest on a topic. But the certainty the Aikido guy had, watching something that was so clearly fake, yet being convinced it was real, is really eye opening how cultish fake martial arts and fake masters can be. This dude was probably relatively smart in every other area, yet totally brainwashed about Aikido.

Steven Seagal does those types of shows.

Much like comparing bodybuilders versus athletes - some martial arts are built for show and some are built for go. Which is why boxing, muay thai, BJJ, wrestling, and judo are the basis for the MMA style.

Aug 1, 2022 23:06:37 GMT Gyro LC said:

Aug 1, 2022 22:56:50 GMT Kilgore said:

Back in the day there was some dude on the Joe Rogan Podcast that was super into Aikido (which is 90% useless in real fighting scenarios), and Rogan was showing clips of an Aikido master that clearly had students taking dives, just cartoonish stuff, bordering on supernatural, and the guest was 100% serious, like, you don't understand, Joe, this is legit. One of the few times Rogan was by far smarter than his guest on a topic. But the certainty the Aikido guy had, watching something that was so clearly fake, yet being convinced it was real, is really eye opening how cultish fake martial arts and fake masters can be. This dude was probably relatively smart in every other area, yet totally brainwashed about Aikido.

Steven Seagal does those types of shows.

Much like comparing bodybuilders versus athletes - some martial arts are built for show and some are built for go. Which is why boxing, muay thai, BJJ, wrestling, and judo are the basis for the MMA style.

The original Rogan/Aikido guy video isn't up anymore, but here's an abridged version. The guy they show is doing Seagal moves, just total bullshit. 

On a contrast note considering aikido as an effective martial art in reality. The book angry white pyjamas focused on how aikido was taught to the Japanese police and military forces as a way of controlling people. It seems aikido if practically applied to a non practitioner of the martial arts it does have an advantage. If you look at any of the pain compliance techniques that even American prison guards use their roots are based in aikido. Even the techniques that police used to wrestle people to get handcuffs on are based in aikido.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_White_Pyjamas

Aug 2, 2022 2:28:07 GMT theend said:

On a contrast note considering aikido as an effective martial art in reality. The book angry white pyjamas focused on how aikido was taught to the Japanese police and military forces as a way of controlling people. It seems aikido if practically applied to a non practitioner of the martial arts it does have an advantage. If you look at any of the pain compliance techniques that even American prison guards use their roots are based in aikido. Even the techniques that police used to wrestle people to get handcuffs on are based in aikido.

The way I heard MMA people talk about it, is aikido is not effective on it's own for fighting since students are shown strong attacks but then do not practice them because they are not really safe to use when sparring, and not legal in competition.  What it does do, is teaches about being in a fight and how to roll through stuff and take attacks.  

Also what people neglect about the style, is when traditionally taught, it is coupled with basic jujitsu since it was an offshoot of that style focused on defense.  The jujitsu side is what police are using.  

Most Martial Arts are too focused on style.
It is why MMA fighters don't rely on one pure Martial Art form, it is a mix of some form of grappling and another form of striking.

The other myth that martial arts overlooks is size.
If you are smaller, you could train for years and a bigger dude with reasonable fitness will crush you.
There is a reason there is a weight class division in all fighting.
I do think these self defense courses for women are a great idea, but they probably give someone too much confidence.

As far as deadly Martial arts, Krav Maga seems legit

Aug 2, 2022 7:49:22 GMT iNCY said:

As far as deadly Martial arts, Krav Maga seems legit

"No groin, no Krav Maga."

Aug 2, 2022 7:49:22 GMT iNCY said:

There is a reason there is a weight class division in all fighting.

I've been watching sumo recently and learned there are no weight classes in sumo. It's an athletic competition rather than a fight to the death, but it's very interesting to see much smaller guys beat others much much bigger.

Before UFC had weight classes size was not that big of a deal. Royce Gracie took out Dan Severn who carried 75 pounds on him. Weight classes were not added to even the playing field, but because New Jersey demanded boxing rules. Otherwise UFC wanted to just do over 200 and under 200. And most smaller guys still bulked up to 200 to fight in the 200 division instead of fight at their traditional weight. Also uneven fights happen regularly in Asia.

What is ironic about the weight argument, is guys often fight one or more weight classes under their natural weight for a weight advantage, then cut weight to fight and lose because they are too dehydrated.

Boxing too had no weight rules for the first 150 years until Queensberry Rules created a spectrum of weight classes. Catch wrestling only got weight limits when it was featured at the 1904 olympics, otherwise size was not really a factor.

Likely this all goes back to the con area of carnival wrestling, where people would fight under unfamiliar rules people who did these fights every night. Even then, Gotch was 150 pounds holding his own in these.

Krav Maga is legit as it is not an art. That is all effect.

Aug 2, 2022 17:50:02 GMT c said:

Before UFC had weight classes size was not that big of a deal. Royce Gracie took out Dan Severn who carried 75 pounds on him. Weight classes were not added to even the playing field, but because New Jersey demanded boxing rules. Otherwise UFC wanted to just do over 200 and under 200. And most smaller guys still bulked up to 200 to fight in the 200 division instead of fight at their traditional weight. Also uneven fights happen regularly in Asia.

What is ironic about the weight argument, is guys often fight one or more weight classes under their natural weight for a weight advantage, then cut weight to fight and lose because they are too dehydrated.

Boxing too had no weight rules for the first 150 years until Queensberry Rules created a spectrum of weight classes. Catch wrestling only got weight limits when it was featured at the 1904 olympics, otherwise size was not really a factor.

Likely this all goes back to the con area of carnival wrestling, where people would fight under unfamiliar rules people who did these fights every night. Even then, Gotch was 150 pounds holding his own in these.

Krav Maga is legit as it is not an art. That is all effect.

In a sport with set rules you can mitigate the effects of weight class.
In a fight though, it is hard to get past a significant size and weight advantage.

That's where MMA is the closest thing to real fighting, though still no the same... Sometimes it only takes one lucky punch or unlucky slip and it is all over.

In real fight you can do small joint manipulation, which is how small guys can negate the size advantage. Most wrist locks are still illegal in MMA but not in real fights.

Plus the eyes and balls are fair game.

What about the gamification system of belts in martial arts. This type of leveling up by completing certain tasks for reward is similar to what concerned parents make in saying video games addictive. If martial arts were a pyramid scheme which, frankly they kind of are, this would be raked through the coals.

It makes sense when done in an objective system. Mastery x skills and demonstrate said mastery and you get a belt.

The problem is standards that the different groups use varies wildly. So black belts in one school could be green belts in another with a small gap in mastery between the two. If you are not competing in a national system, the belts are essentially meaningless. In a national competition system if you have piss poor standards your students will get ripped apart by judges.

I want to start a martial art but replace belts with suspenders.

Aug 4, 2022 3:02:25 GMT 🤯 said:

I want to start a martial art but replace belts with suspenders.

Been having some gummies?

Aug 4, 2022 3:04:01 GMT Gyro LC said:

Aug 4, 2022 3:02:25 GMT 🤯 said:

I want to start a martial art but replace belts with suspenders.

Been having some gummies?

Unless it's residual, this is actually what a sober thought from 🤯 sounds like.

What an interesting thread. The mma gym I trained at back in the day was run by a phenomenal teacher that I learned so much from, the biggest thing I took from him was the mental aspect of being able to accept being afraid and how to harness that fear and to use it, fear is such a powerful energy that can overwhelm you and break you down or you can harness it and control it to make you move faster than you have ever moved and to be stronger than you could ever be. It was something I learned from him that once it sunk in I never lost a fight and did amazing things in the cage, and I actually thought about that a lot when I seen the Uvalde school shooting video with the police in the hallway too scared to do anything.

But there was absolutely a cult like vibe in that gym and the dude had a very weird mental control over so many of the fighters, kids, and parents who brought their kids there.

Interesting take in the book that I am reading accuses that black belt men would bring in their white belt woman to assert their dominance over them in an abusive relationship. I thought this was interesting. I could totally see it. Some macho dude trying to make she knew to never leave him or send her weak brother over to defend her because he broke the coolest boards. Kind of a human version of showing of a gun collection.

That does not shock me at all. Mine as well make part of the program too. Depending on the program though, your typical guy hanging at rough bars could take a black belt in the art based martial arts. Shit gets real when someone throws a kick and the guy he hits does not go down.

I'd also be curious if anyone would be willing to discuss the money racket vs integrity of the school.

Sure some have already. The old Tiger Schulmann era and what not. Think when Royce Gracie became known a whole lot of people started to question what they learned.  I mean how often do you hear about people learning karate for self-defense these days?   

Only a few weeks until the new season of Cobra Kai!

Aug 4, 2022 3:06:06 GMT 🤯 said:

Aug 4, 2022 3:04:01 GMT Gyro LC said:

Been having some gummies?

Unless it's residual, this is actually what a sober thought from 🤯 sounds like.

Sober thoughts are overrated.

theend

The search term to look for about the scam schools is McDojo. Tons of youtube stuff on them.

This was an interesting talk on them. Not find what you were looking for, but may try again later.

That said I suspect this is ultimately is looking for:

www.martialartsbusinessdaily.com/blog/

www.martialartsbusinessdaily.com/2926/why-small-schools-mean-big-profits/

Video on scam vs real dojos.

Also the term they are using for bullshit martial arts is Bullshido.

www.bullshido.net/

You don't see martial arts debt forgiveness. Because spending money on that is just foolish.