Todd touched on this in the locker room drama thread in regards to Sammy Guevara. I was in agreement with him and thought this might spark a separate discussion.

The 4 Pillars of AEW are:

-Sammy Guevara
-MJF
-Darby Allin
-Jungle Boy

This comes from a promo MJF cut over a year ago drawing inspiration from AJPW's 4 Pillars of Heaven. While MJF was bragging about himself and the other people that are born and bred in AEW and have held it up through it's conception and COVID, it has generally become accepted as canon as many people haven't argued it.

But it's been over a year and I think it's worth re-visiting. Was MJF right? Who would you have chosen as your 4 pillars a year ago? Is that list the same now?

MJF cutting that promo then disappearing less than a year later puts his status in question. I think it depends if he turns up again, signs an extension, etc etc. I'd leave him there for now.

Jungle Boy and Darby Allin absolutely stay on the list. They've been a huge part of AEW's mid-card since the beginning and continue to shine despite world class talents showing up over the past year.

Back when MJF cut the promo many said that Dr. Britt Baker should be a pillar and as much as recent drama has shed some light on the kind of person she is backstage, I think I have to agree. You think the women's division is bad now? Go back and watch AEW in 2019/2020. A handful of joshi wrestlers hand-picked by Kenny Omega and Nyla Rose were basically the entire division. Britt Baker emerged as the star of the show and was easily the most-improved wrestler on the roster in 2020. She went from "Adam Cole's dentist girlfriend," to believable dominant world champ in less than a year. She elevated Thunder Rosa, Jade Cargill, Jamie Hayter, among others. I can't really think of a more deserving fit.

That means Sammy Guevara leaves the list which is how this conversation came up. I don't think he should have ever been included and the past year has proven that. Every time he gets pushed it ends in a mess. He can't carry a storyline as a face or a heel and all reports say that everyone hates working with him. He can't talk, doesn't seem willing to learn, and while he's a good wrestler there are 20 more like him on the roster, many of them better.

So tell me your thoughts. Maybe your list is completely different.

Aug 26, 2022 17:43:11 GMT @aaron said:

They're more like The Four Pillocks.

One of them wants to rape everyone in sight (and is also awful).

One of them pays addicts to put their face in filthy toilets (and is also awful).

One of them seems to have completely vanished from existence (he's good though TBH).

One of them is Jungle Boy.

Sorry RT , you can fling this over to the pillar thread if you want!

For me the entire definition of the 4 pillars is off. Maybe it means something else in wrestling and implies the future in this case.

The 4 pillars should almost be conceptual. Innovation, youth, inclusivity and accessibility. As opposed to their foundations rooted in remaining a "professional wrestling" organisation.

Aug 26, 2022 22:34:28 GMT NATH45 said:

For me the entire definition of the 4 pillars is off. Maybe it means something else in wrestling and implies the future in this case.

The 4 pillars should almost be conceptual. Innovation, youth, inclusivity and accessibility. As opposed to their foundations rooted in remaining a "professional wrestling" organisation.

So who would you pick if you had to? I’m interested who you would put in those roles.

Also a thought I had this afternoon: would you include Hangman Page as a pillar? Who would you replace with him?

IMO, my picks for the current four pillars are...

Darby Allin
Jungle Boy
Dr. Britt Baker D.M.D
Sammy Guevara

Sure, Sammy has attitude problems. But he still shows up for AEW. Meanwhile, with MJF's current absence, it's a wait and see to see if he does come back. So in the meantime, his spot's been replaced by Dr. Baker.

If we are changing some the pillars. Ricky Starks, Powerhouse Hobbs, Darby Allin, and MJF. I thought about Kris Statlander because she needs to healthy.

If you are talking about a year ago then MJF, Darby, Britt, and Sammy. And had Jericho picked Kip instead of Sammy. I would have said him and he would have been a lot farther along then Sammy is now.

Aug 27, 2022 0:00:44 GMT RT said:

Also a thought I had this afternoon: would you include Hangman Page as a pillar? Who would you replace with him?

Not sure Hangman quite qualifies as a pillar, I figure the Pillars are the ones who start as relative unknowns at the bottom (while AEW starts at the bottom) and grow as the company grows. Page already came in as a decently-sized name as the Elite's running buddy.

I think at the time, Guevara was one of the Pillars. When AEW started, he seemed the most ready of the four - ringwork was there, capable of getting heat, not atrocious on the mic but hasn't seemed to have grown quite as much as he could have. (I lay this at the feet of AEW's bookers/agents; it's on them to give the talent a figurative kick in the ass to keep them from settling into a comfortable rut. It's the same issue I have with AEW Adam Cole.)

I also don't think the Pillars bit was really supposed to be canon or meant to be taken as seriously as the Interwebs has seem to taken it, but it is what it is.

If I were to pick right now, off the top of my head my Pillars would be Jungle Boy, Darby Allin (if for no other reason than that AEW seems to still back them big-time), Orange Cassidy and Jade Cargill.

Aug 26, 2022 22:34:28 GMT NATH45 said:

For me the entire definition of the 4 pillars is off. Maybe it means something else in wrestling and implies the future in this case.

The 4 pillars should almost be conceptual. Innovation, youth, inclusivity and accessibility. As opposed to their foundations rooted in remaining a "professional wrestling" organisation.

It's a reference to the Four Pillars Of Heaven, a monicker that was bestowed to a four wrestlers who played a part of AJPW's success in the 90s. They were Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada and Taue. All four men were pushed strongly before their time but rapidly grew into their push and they took Pro Wrestling to the next logical conclusion where guys would learn from previous encounters and employ effective strategies to get the better of their opponents. They also dumped each other on their heads a lot and it took more and more dangerous spots to get the better of opponents which likely led to some premature deaths and retirements...but y'know...

Anyways, AEW decided to get on board and make play that they were doing the exact same thing with their roster. Except they've rarely committed to it, having the odd match here and there (and I'd argue they were some of the best matches of the year - Darby/MJF, Jungle Boy/MJF, Sammy Guevara/MJF etc.) before putting it on the backburner for the next signing or plaything.

Also I rate Britt as a performer but she doesn't work at all in the comparison.

I'd probably forget about the " relative unknown " part and focus on the 4 guys I'd want carrying the company after Jericho, Mox, Punk & Danielson leave.

The likes of Black, Miro, Pac & Claudio, etc are probably too old to consider and the current 4 pillars I think lack maturity to really grow into main event talents despite a few of them on the verge of turning 30.

Yes, Sammy and Darby are 29 and both are children in comparison to previous generations. And they are boys compared to say, WWE's then 4 pillars - The OVW class of 2002. Or to a lesser extent, The FCW 3 pillars - The Shield.

But ignoring that, and ignoring the " unknown " part... and taking age into consideration, potential longevity, maturity and ability :

Buddy Matthews = workhorse.

Wardlow = monster.

Wheeler Yuta = babyface fire.

Ricky Starks = money.

Most of the people mentioned are not homegrown talent. Britt was RoH and SHIMMER, Darby Evolve, Sammy AAA, Jungle Boy was a west coast regular. Pillars these are not.

Only real people that did come up entirely in AEW were Hook and Julia. Neither are really groundbreaking. Both have a ton of talent, but not really doing anything new.

Bandit was something new, on multiple dimensions, but they did not lock him down. Also to get them over would require a real commitment, far moreso than Rose or Kiss, and I am not sure AEW has the ability to commit like that to something so different. But the kid's potential is so damn high as their in ring style is something we never really seen anymore go all out with, in they wrestle like they are an anime hero. Take away the femboy stuff, he is still completely original in the ring and he is a great highflyer that also has amazing submissions. He also is emerging as a locker room leader when they need one, and has so much charisma he connects with people instantly. He lacks polish but was a Nightmare Factory student, so they all kind of lack polish.

Makes me wonder really if the issue was he would have debuted in AEW as a guy doing a femboy gimmick that started to grow breasts then became a girl that turned AEW off.  They have trans starts, but fans never seen the transition.  Bandit is going to do it live though.

People mean unknowns to the average viewer so WWE, NJPW, and when TNA and ROH were seen as something.

Aug 27, 2022 5:34:12 GMT c said:

Most of the people mentioned are not homegrown talent. Britt was RoH and SHIMMER, Darby Evolve, Sammy AAA, Jungle Boy was a west coast regular. Pillars these are not.

:suspic:

If we're using that definition then AEW essentially has zero homegrown talent. What does "west coast regular" even mean? Only the most hardcore wrestling fan would have heard of Britt Baker, Darby Allin, Sammy Guevara and Jungle Boy before they made a name for themselves in AEW. None of these wrestlers were a finished product when they started in AEW, unlike say Thunder Rosa.

A sensible definition is anyone who has been in AEW from the beginning, or close to the beginning, and was not from WWE, NJPW, TNA/Impact or ROH. What X-zero said basically.

It's too early to say who is the Four Pillars in its original AJPW sense. But four wrestlers who are young and could be the pillars of AEW going forward....

- Wardlow
- Darby Allin
- Jungle Boy
- Britt Baker

Those would be my main four. Other names that come to mind are Ricky Starks, Jade Cargill, Wheeler Yuta, Daniel Garcia, Dante Martin, MJF, Kris Statlander, Hikaru Shida.

The four pillars however were all AJPW trained though and came up in AJPW.

And many of people listed went through RoH or AAA.

For west coast regular Jungle Boy worked 100+ matches before AEW in Cali for PWG, APW, GCW, UEW, etc.



So IMO, AEW doesn't have one pillar yet without drastically changing the metaphor to just mean people who were not signed to WWE.

Honestly wasn't PWG off the map as much as ROH has been the past decade? Especially after the elite was doing it's thing and everyone went to NXT? Seems a bit nitpicky like yes they didn't fall out of the sky into AEW, but before this they were nothing.

I have Britt replacing Sammy. Hr's work has gotten so stale. He hasn't grown that much.

c is right but like Emperor said if you're using a strict trained-by-AEW definition I'm not even sure you have four warm bodies to point to . Even Julia Hart spent some time in the indies pre-AEW, and she's like 20. I'm perfectly comfortable tweaking the definition here to 'people who got their first big break in AEW and are likely sticking around.'

No idea why, but I see more potential in Powerhouse Hobbs than Wardlow.

I can't believe how much and how quickly Wardlow cooled down since he beat MJF. He feels like an afterthought.

Jon Moxley is all 4 pillars now.

Misawa, Kobashi, Kawada & Taue

Sept 3, 2022 8:22:24 GMT Emperor said:

I can't believe how much and how quickly Wardlow cooled down since he beat MJF. He feels like an afterthought.

Wardlow is coming for you he said so tonight.

Coming for me? Well shit.