November 9th, 1997, wrestling changed forever.



Discuss.

Arguably a really good match.

Did it really though?

Nov 9, 2022 18:17:26 GMT 🤯 said:

Did it really though?

Someone smarter than me can probably explain it better but essentially the wall between kayfabe and reality was blown up and hasn’t ever really been repaired. In my opinion anyway.

Nov 9, 2022 18:26:31 GMT RT said:

Nov 9, 2022 18:17:26 GMT 🤯 said:

Did it really though?

Someone smarter than me can probably explain it better but essentially the wall between kayfabe and reality was blown up and hasn’t ever really been repaired. In my opinion anyway.

So people thought Pillman's Got a Gun was a... shoot?

-_-

My first exposure to the Screwjob was through WCW. Fans constantly whinge about the proverbial 'casual' fan but in this instance this was me and I had no idea what Bret was talking about half the time and the finish to Starrcade '99 (which was a blatant copy of Montreal) just left me feeling numb. It wasn't until year or so later I caught Wrestling With Shadows randomly on broadcast television and it was a real eye opener.

I've always sided with Bret on the matter. He never wanted to leave the WWF but he was asked to go for the sake of the company. One of the terms of the release was that he could book his own send off which the WWF clearly violated and embarrassed him when he had been nothing but a model employee. Furthermore it was all to serve Shawn Michaels, the problem child of the company who was a disrespectful prick to Bret, his family and constantly made life difficult for the company. Bret gave Shawn one chance to use his creative power to put Shawn over by doing we trade wins and Shawn still said no.

With that said, it was one of the best things that could happen to the WWF. It put so much heat on Vince and Shawn and with Austin having to overcome a broken neck, his run towards the WWF Championship could not have been more satisfying. Bret leaving opened up space for Austin, Rock, Triple H, Foley, Kane etc. to step up and just made the show feel fresher since you were watching new pushes. Meanwhile Bret was walking into WCW which was firmly the Hogan/Nash show and he'd merely be an ancillary character to prop up Hogan.

Nowadays, I'm kind of over how many grifters have attached themselves to the story. Russo made the call, Cornette came up with the idea, Greg Gagne passed Vince in the hall and whispered 'Montreal Screwjob' - it's gotten out of hand.

Nov 9, 2022 18:27:21 GMT 🤯 said:

Nov 9, 2022 18:26:31 GMT RT said:

Someone smarter than me can probably explain it better but essentially the wall between kayfabe and reality was blown up and hasn’t ever really been repaired. In my opinion anyway.

So people thought Pillman's Got a Gun was a... shoot?

-_-

It was 100% real

Sweet Wife shares her birthday with the Montreal Screwjob.

 The most tragic moment during the first 12.5 glorious years of my wrestling fandom. If there was just one finish I could change... Storytime!

I wasn't online yet but was still hooked into the rumor mill thanks to a free wrestling hotline I called first thing every morning, a wrestling radio show I listened to on Saturday nights, and hearing any other rumors I may have missed from friends. First heard the Bret rumors when I called Tim Rowe's local wrestling hotline a few days before Survivor Series. I was good for nothing at school that day, or the next few days. All I could think about was the possibility of Bret leaving. I didn't want to believe...

You have to understand WWF was life. This was the epitome of Serious Business to 95-00 me. And Bret was my favorite wrestler in 1997. More than that, he was a legit hero to my friends and I. Bret was right! About everything! He did nothing wrong! He didn't sell out! He played by the rules! He worked his way up the ladder the right and proper way! The stupid American fans turned on him! when they sided with that psychopath Austin and that degenerate Michaels. 

Meanwhile, Michaels was 1a on my WWF Most Hated list. Even way back then I knew all about his backstage shenanigans. He caused one headache after another that entire year. On at least one occasion over the summer he was rumored to "never" be coming back. And you know what? I think they would have given him the boot had WCW not been killing them at the time. Bloated 20 year contract or not, why would Vince EVER choose this prima donna over good, loyal, reliable Bret? 

I was DEVASTATED when it went down. Now I was still at least a quasi-mark, but somehow I just knew straight away this wasn't any old wrestling storyline. Watched the show at my friends The Three Brothers house. They only lived a block away. Normally I'd walk or even run straight home after PPVs. Not this time. I wandered around the neighborhood near(?) tears for a while questioning everything, more or less having an existential crisis over the Montreal Screwjob. "Could WWF be...the bad guys? Have I been wrong this entire time?? If WWF is bad, can anything in this world truly be good??? Why, Vince, WHY?!?!" 

The next few weeks were rough. My beloved WWF was dying. The writing was on the wall. They lost their Cal Ripken, screwing him over in the process. But I'd be a loyal soldier to the end. In the end I just couldn't break with my beloved WWF. If the ship goes down, I'll go down with it.

Those shows were brutal. They really rubbed my nose in it too by putting DX all over Raw and mentioning the Screwjob whenever possible. They humiliated The Anvil. Trolled us with a midget. As best I can remember IYH: D-Generation X was the first WWF pay per view in 11 glorious years of fandom I had zero desire to watch. BUT then Owen came back. The Taker/Kane stuff was always cool (Kane coming out to wreck random dudes was normally the highlight of the show during the bad stretch). Mick Foley ended up staying after no showing the post-Screwjob Raw. And by the end of December (January at the latest) I was back to being a full fledged WWF fanboy.

Ironic thing is both Bret AND Shawn lost in the end. These two guys who had spent two years jockeying for the top spot were never the same after The Screwjob. Bret fizzled in WCW and became the Bitter Bret we all know and (some of us) love. But the literal Chosen One Shawn Michaels would only be the top guy for a few months before injuries and the Rise of Austin rendered him irrelevant for over 4 years.

So in the end Bret & HBK both ended up becoming stellar examples of the Ewing Theory. Critical darlings with loud and large fanbases to this day, but neither guy ever came close to bringing WWF back to the heights of its Hulkamania heyday. It wasn't until they left and Austin became The Man that WWF reached (or even exceeded) their 80s peak.

Vince was also a huge winner here. The Screwjob lead to the Mr. McMahon character which lead to $$$$$$$$$$.

Screwjob Winners: WWF, Vince, Austin
Screwjob Losers: Bret & Shawn

🤯 I do think the Screwjob changed everything, though maybe not in the way RT meant in his original post.
Oh, and Big Pete add Kenny Bolin's name to the list of people who claim to have come up with the Screwjob. There's a reason his OVW stable was called BS...

It's becomes so engrained that it becomes easy to diminish how truly an insane moment it really was. Just absolutely fucking insane. 

Hate, hate, hate so much how "history is written by the victors" has the WWE convincing a huge percentage of people that Bret screwed Bret while getting all the most basic facts wrong. The truth is, Vince fucked up twice. He had buyer's remorse with Bret's 1996 contract, then in agreeing (and writing into a new contract) that Bret had creative control over his exit (not Vince), threw a temper tantrum when he couldn't tell Bret what to do. That's it. That's the Screwjob. A man who had never been told no by a wrestler (Vince), being told no (by Bret), then doing a swerve on live television without a care about any of its consequences or repercussions, and then spending decades lying about what actually happened to make it seem like the other guy's fault.

All the "Vince feared Bret would show up on Nitro the next day with the belt" is total bullshit. Bret was under contract with the WWF until mid-December, actually past the December PPV! Bret literally could have wrestled at the D-Generation X: In Your House PPV on December 5th. This is why he didn't show up on Nitro until December 15, 1997, that was the first WCW date after his contract expired. There was zero chance Bret would break his contract, guaranteed to get sued (and lose!) to show up on Nitro November 10th. Didn't happen after the Screwjob, certainly wouldn't have happened if it never happened and Bret still had the belt.

So many WWE company men then act like Bret "went into business for himself" or "didn't follow the tradition of jobbing out of a territory" like Bret randomly went rogue going into Survivor Series. Vince gave Bret the power of final say on the booking of his own exit as part of the release. Bret had a long list of people he would happily drop the belt to (Undertaker, Austin, Shamrock, and even Shawn on different night). It was Vince being unreasonable deciding it had to be Shawn, and it had to be on that night, when quite frankly, Vince gave away the power to decide such a thing. The only one who went rogue that night was Vince. And the rest is history.

Vince got so lucky. One of the most overt examples of a booker choosing an ace, literally altering the finish of a match in front of everyone, just for the man he chose to only wrestle 20-something more matches for the remainder of the Monday Night Wars, which he was still getting his ass kicked that very night. Talk about picking a loser. That should have ended him.

Then the thing that saves him: Steve Austin, a guy he didn't even want to hire, Bret, of all people, the one that lobbied for Steve the most. That Steve Austin, becomes hotter than pretty much any wrestler ever. And the angle that puts it over the top, is with Vince as the bad guy, which Vince resisted! The "Bret screwed Bret" interview the day after the Screwjob wasn't intended to create "Mr. McMahon." Vince genuinely thought he could convince his audience it was Bret's fault, failed at doing so, and accidentally launches the hated Mr. McMahon character. To feud with, not the handpicked ace Shawn Michaels, but the guy he didn't want to hire in the first place, Steve Austin, and that becomes the biggest thing in the company's history. 

Bret's life is broken. Some of it his fault, some of it, like, the fucking universe, just deciding everything that could go wrong after that night must absolutely go wrong for him.

Vince becomes a billionaire.

Life isn't fucking fair, man.

I wish I could like Kilgore's post twice.

They all really set themselves up to fail by running Bret off from wrestling, once they started the process with the screwjob it was all doomed to end up sucking really, really, really bad. And it did. All of it. By summer 2000 I couldn't be bothered to watch the bullshit anymore. 

Nov 10, 2022 6:37:05 GMT Kilgore said:

That Steve Austin, becomes hotter than pretty much any wrestler ever.

That's always the big "what if?". What if Austin's neck goes out between Survivor Series and Mania? Austin's neck goes full Magnum T.A. and he has to retire. What does Vince do?

Even with doubts about rising star Austin's health for the short, medium and long term, Vince had just gotten rid of Bret and his $1m/year deal, while backing junkie Shawn Michaels. Then a month later he offered Warrior (who they'd chucked just over a year ago for his unprofessionalism) a $750k/year 5-year deal, which is absolutely mental. And gave Tyson $3m (well worth it in the end) for his appearances in early 1998.

If Austin goes down pre-Rumble, do they pivot and delay the Kane turn and drag out Taker/HBK further to Mania and have Taker become champion? Then have Kane turn and run that as the championship feud in spring 1998?

If Austin goes down post-Rumble/pre-Mania, do they go for HBK/Owen as the Mania main event? Hard to see that and even harder to see Owen winning. Does HBK become the first heel to leave Mania with the title due to the assist of Tyson? Many have suspected that HBK's 4-year retirement was more to do with his drug issues and being passed over for Austin than the casket back injury. Do we get a Ric Flair-like long heel title run for Michaels in 1998? Who else could they have put the title on? Shamrock maybe?

Since Taker/Kane seemed locked in and I can't picture Vince going with Owen in the Mania main in 1998, does he go all out to bring a past star in? Maybe he really pushes for the Warrior deal. Warrior over HBK at Mania XIV? Could you imagine the hissy fit Shawn would throw if asked? After a couple of years of shitting on WCW as an old folks' home and building up the WWF as the place for the young, athletic stars, bringing Warrior back could have been pretty humorous.

Would Vince have tried to steal someone from WCW? Wasn't Hogan's contract up for renewal around this time? Was there anyone else?

Strobe, Kilgore, Baker, Big Pete—

What's it look like if Vince picks Bret instead?

Or, it not an either or scenario? Don't know what Shawn cost, but what if Vince just swings a way to keep both? What's that look like?

What if Vince honors the creative control clause. What do you see Bret's exit and the title transition looking like?

Nov 12, 2022 1:25:34 GMT 🤯 said:

Strobe , Kilgore , Baker , Big Pete —

What's it look like if Vince picks Bret instead?

Austin's coronation becomes even more satisfying to most since he'd win the title by scoring his first pinfall victory over the man he had been feuding with for over 16 months. After that Bret becomes Vince's Corporate Champion. Bret wouldn't even have to change his 1997 character. Then we get another 6-12 glorious months of Bret vs. Austin which is already my GOAT feud.

I could see Bret becoming a backstage problem due to him not liking the direction of the company. But even that could have a silver lining with Bret vetoing some of the more daft ideas we usually attribute to Russo. 

Shawn joins his buddies in WCW. He's happy to be free of Bret....at first. A minute later he realizes he's now swimming with sharks. Soon becomes an even bigger backstage problem than he was in WWF. Playing politics with Bret is one thing. Playing politics with the master Hogan is an entirely different ballgame. Maybe HBK doesn't get injured. But maybe he becomes another statistic due to combination of misery and the looser WCW environment. 

Bret winning the political battle over HBK would be rough on HHH. Perhaps he'd want out with all his buddies now in WCW? And maybe Vince would acquiesce since he was just another (upper) midcarder?

I can't see Bret & Shawn coexisting for much longer in WWF. One of them has to go. If both stay I can see them becoming irrelevant/expendable given the rise of Austin. Maybe Vince keeps them both on a shorter leash now that Austin is established as The Man?

Nov 12, 2022 0:44:55 GMT Strobe said:

Nov 10, 2022 6:37:05 GMT Kilgore said:

That Steve Austin, becomes hotter than pretty much any wrestler ever.

That's always the big "what if?". What if Austin's neck goes out between Survivor Series and Mania? Austin's neck goes full Magnum T.A. and he has to retire. What does Vince do?

Even with doubts about rising star Austin's health for the short, medium and long term, Vince had just gotten rid of Bret and his $1m/year deal, while backing junkie Shawn Michaels. Then a month later he offered Warrior (who they'd chucked just over a year ago for his unprofessionalism) a $750k/year 5-year deal, which is absolutely mental. And gave Tyson $3m (well worth it in the end) for his appearances in early 1998.

If Austin goes down pre-Rumble, do they pivot and delay the Kane turn and drag out Taker/HBK further to Mania and have Taker become champion? Then have Kane turn and run that as the championship feud in spring 1998?

If Austin goes down post-Rumble/pre-Mania, do they go for HBK/Owen as the Mania main event? Hard to see that and even harder to see Owen winning. Does HBK become the first heel to leave Mania with the title due to the assist of Tyson? Many have suspected that HBK's 4-year retirement was more to do with his drug issues and being passed over for Austin than the casket back injury. Do we get a Ric Flair-like long heel title run for Michaels in 1998? Who else could they have put the title on? Shamrock maybe?

Since Taker/Kane seemed locked in and I can't picture Vince going with Owen in the Mania main in 1998, does he go all out to bring a past star in? Maybe he really pushes for the Warrior deal. Warrior over HBK at Mania XIV? Could you imagine the hissy fit Shawn would throw if asked? After a couple of years of shitting on WCW as an old folks' home and building up the WWF as the place for the young, athletic stars, bringing Warrior back could have been pretty humorous.

Would Vince have tried to steal someone from WCW? Wasn't Hogan's contract up for renewal around this time? Was there anyone else?

Man, all these scenarios are even more dire for the WWF than I would have already assumed.

If Austin goes down, Vince really does have to live with his Shawn decision because that's all he'll have for a little while. Which is a disaster because Shawn in '96/'97 was negative ratings on Raw. He doesn't do his first great quarter ratings until Austin/Tyson are there with him in '98.

Hogan's contract runs out May '98, so he's not a WrestleMania option, but in this world, we gotta assume he returns soon after and is a big player by SummerSlam '98.

As for Shawn's WrestleMania 14 opponent:

Taker is out because of Kane (Kane being an anchor in '98 will not be uncommon)

Foley is over by WrestleMania 14, but doesn't really get to the level we need him at until the Hell in a Cell performance in June, so he stays on the same trajectory. He's not seeming like a championship option until Survivor Series. 

Shamrock seems like the most likely to get the bump. They were clearly high on him (until they weren't). Give him a dominant Rumble win and maybe he's going into WrestleMania extremely over, with the anti-Shawn factor, which is huge, people really want to see him get destroyed, and Shamrock becomes the perfect guy to do it. Then the title reign ultimately flops, but Hogan is on his way in.

Vince making the call to The Ultimate Warrior again to main event WrestleMania 14 is so funny to think of. Just doing the Vince bark "I'll call that son of a bitch again," before dialing, then having to kiss Warrior's ass when he picks up. "How's it going, pal?" If Shamrock is the best roster option, then yeah, maybe Warrior becomes the guy thinking it's too much for Shamrock. And that's oddly the worst case scenario. Warrior vs. Michaels is maybe the death of the WWF. So much can go wrong. The best case scenario for the match is that it's a normal flavor of terrible.

I suppose they could go even more carnival with Tyson and actually put him in the ring. Shamrock vs. Tyson in a novelty match to beef up a Michaels vs. Warrior main event that no one could possibly believe in. 

The Rock is definitely on the rise and we can't rule him out entirely. He was the last to be eliminated in the '98 Rumble. They're already thinking about him as a guy. In a scenario where Austin's neck goes, it's likely The Rock gets kayfabe credited for finishing the job and is (at worst) the #2 heel just behind Michaels. Rock and Michaels headlining a WrestleMania is a Vince wet dream, he so clearly loved them both. If they can somehow turn Shawn babyface by the Rumble (it might be as easy as Shawn objecting to Vince's Screwjob decision and feuding with him over that), and have a heel Rock coming up short looking to dethrone him at Mania, I think that would be the best option with the benefit of hindsight. They could even do shades of WrestleMania 6 (Champion vs. Champion) to try to manufacture a scale that wouldn't quite be there organically because it is just a little early for The Rock to be headlining a Mania. But as we've determined in many ways, times are tough, options are slim, this is the route I would take. And you can still beef up the card with Shamrock vs. Tyson.

This scenario, The Rock and Shamrock are very much elevated into the main events going into the rest of '98. Undertaker and Kane are there to be thrown into any combination of main event happenings too. Michaels is a lame duck babyface champion, but Hogan is coming in, and Foley will ascend to one of the most beloved and over figures by the end of the year. So things are rough, but not without a possibility of digging themselves out of the grave WCW is burying them in. 

SummerSlam '98
Hogan vs. 'Taker
Michaels vs. Kane
The Rock vs. Triple H 
Shamrock vs. Severn

Survivor Series '98
The Rock vs. Michaels II (Screwjob callback, Rock wins the belt)

Rumble
The Rock vs. Foley
Hogan can win the Rumble, I guess

WrestleMania 15
The Rock vs. Hogan
Michaels vs. Triple H
Undertaker vs. Shamrock
Foley vs. Kane (Or Big Show)

By now The Rock is the clear ace (and will do well in this role, obviously), you can phase Michaels out with Triple H taking his spot, Undertaker/Foley/Kane/Big Show are all pretty much the same as they actually were, with Shamrock still a bit higher than he actually was going into the rest of '99. Probably serious buyer's remorse with Hogan by now, but he would give them a needed bump until The Rock becomes The Rock, so worth it. 

Nov 12, 2022 3:00:26 GMT Baker said:

Nov 12, 2022 1:25:34 GMT 🤯 said:

Strobe , Kilgore , Baker , Big Pete —

What's it look like if Vince picks Bret instead?

Austin's coronation becomes even more satisfying to most since he'd win the title by scoring his first pinfall victory over the man he had been feuding with for over 16 months. After that Bret becomes Vince's Corporate Champion. Bret wouldn't even have to change his 1997 character. Then we get another 6-12 glorious months of Bret vs. Austin which is already my GOAT feud.

I could see Bret becoming a backstage problem due to him not liking the direction of the company. But even that could have a silver lining with Bret vetoing some of the more daft ideas we usually attribute to Russo. 

Shawn joins his buddies in WCW. He's happy to be free of Bret....at first. A minute later he realizes he's now swimming with sharks. Soon becomes an even bigger backstage problem than he was in WWF. Playing politics with Bret is one thing. Playing politics with the master Hogan is an entirely different ballgame. Maybe HBK doesn't get injured. But maybe he becomes another statistic due to combination of misery and the looser WCW environment. 

Bret winning the political battle over HBK would be rough on HHH. Perhaps he'd want out with all his buddies now in WCW? And maybe Vince would acquiesce since he was just another (upper) midcarder?

I can't see Bret & Shawn coexisting for much longer in WWF. One of them has to go. If both stay I can see them becoming irrelevant/expendable given the rise of Austin. Maybe Vince keeps them both on a shorter leash now that Austin is established as The Man?

An actually worked Screwjob finish for Bret vs. Shawn, where Bret goes over and becomes the first corporate champ would have been one of the coolest things ever. It really would have written itself. Vince making the decision because "the way Shawn Michaels has carried himself on television makes him unacceptable to be champion," then Bret can turn up the alter boy part of his gimmick while dialing down the anti-America stuff. Austin emerges as an even more belligerent challenger to finally go over Bret at WrestleMania 14.

It is true, though, it's difficult to imagine Bret/Shawn in the same place. But Vince, absolutely, never allows Shawn to go to WCW. Read this recently (okay almost two years ago, but two years fly and seem recent now), an exchange between Jim Ross and Conrad on his podcast:

Ross answered, “Vince loved [Shawn]. It’s proven. We paid Shawn $750,000 a year for about four years to do nothing because he was Vince’s guy. Every time we go over budgets and things, where are we at with the Shawn contract? Nothing, leave it alone. Ok”

Ross was asked, “When you say four years, are you saying ‘98-”02 that he was still on the payroll at that price?”

Ross responded, “That’s what I’m saying, Conrad. Here’s the deal. All Shawn wanted to do was go work and go play with Kevin Nash and Scott Hall. So that would have been for WCW nice to get a gift of Shawn Michaels, wouldn’t you think? So Vince took good care of him.”

Vince would never let Shawn get away to WCW. He's getting his ass kicked by WCW, almost entirely because he let half the Kliq leave, so he would have been totally spooked to let who he saw as the best one join them.

I think if Vince chose to keep Bret, Bret remaining champion until Austin's coronation, Michaels is off the Mania card entirely, sent home, Vince in "we'll figure out what to do with Shawn some other time" mode.

Triple H can still start DX 2.0 in Shawn's absence (which would probably be Bret's next feud).

Bret, I think, fits in better in Attitude Era WWF than is often thought of. First of all, Bret was part of a lot of proto-Attitude Era moments (cursing, blood, tables, and so on), the only thing he would really object to is the T&A aspect, but that would just beautifully play into his heel persona. In the way that Kurt Angle, the ultimate square, fit into the Attitude Era, I think Bret would, too. WWF loved heel figures objecting to their content, Bret would have been awesome in that role.

PLUS.

Bret was just getting started working with Undertaker. He hadn't worked much with Foley. The Rock adores Bret for working with him when he was green and they would have done great stuff once The Rock becomes The Rock. There was so much there for him to still do. 

I think Shawn comes in and out, like he did "injured" as authority figures, only to work matches, sometimes. So, a better version of that. 

He and Bret are kept away from each other, and like Baker said, with Austin as the ace, neither feels buried by the other, they're merely doing different stuff, at the same level, just below Austin. There's no seething, "I can't believe HE is the ace and not me," because neither are the ace.

And every time Shawn acts out, Vince just sends him home again. He's got Austin now. He doesn't have to put up with it, anymore. 

Nov 12, 2022 5:10:31 GMT Kilgore said:

Nov 12, 2022 3:00:26 GMT Baker said:

Austin's coronation becomes even more satisfying to most since he'd win the title by scoring his first pinfall victory over the man he had been feuding with for over 16 months. After that Bret becomes Vince's Corporate Champion. Bret wouldn't even have to change his 1997 character. Then we get another 6-12 glorious months of Bret vs. Austin which is already my GOAT feud.

I could see Bret becoming a backstage problem due to him not liking the direction of the company. But even that could have a silver lining with Bret vetoing some of the more daft ideas we usually attribute to Russo. 

Shawn joins his buddies in WCW. He's happy to be free of Bret....at first. A minute later he realizes he's now swimming with sharks. Soon becomes an even bigger backstage problem than he was in WWF. Playing politics with Bret is one thing. Playing politics with the master Hogan is an entirely different ballgame. Maybe HBK doesn't get injured. But maybe he becomes another statistic due to combination of misery and the looser WCW environment. 

Bret winning the political battle over HBK would be rough on HHH. Perhaps he'd want out with all his buddies now in WCW? And maybe Vince would acquiesce since he was just another (upper) midcarder?

I can't see Bret & Shawn coexisting for much longer in WWF. One of them has to go. If both stay I can see them becoming irrelevant/expendable given the rise of Austin. Maybe Vince keeps them both on a shorter leash now that Austin is established as The Man?

An actually worked Screwjob finish for Bret vs. Shawn, where Bret goes over and becomes the first corporate champ would have been one of the coolest things ever. It really would have written itself. Vince making the decision because "the way Shawn Michaels has carried himself on television makes him unacceptable to be champion," then Bret can turn up the alter boy part of his gimmick while dialing down the anti-America stuff. Austin emerges as an even more belligerent challenger to finally go over Bret at WrestleMania 14.

It is true, though, it's difficult to imagine Bret/Shawn in the same place. But Vince, absolutely, never allows Shawn to go to WCW. Read this recently (okay almost two years ago, but two years fly and seem recent now), an exchange between Jim Ross and Conrad on his podcast:

Ross answered, “Vince loved [Shawn]. It’s proven. We paid Shawn $750,000 a year for about four years to do nothing because he was Vince’s guy. Every time we go over budgets and things, where are we at with the Shawn contract? Nothing, leave it alone. Ok”

Ross was asked, “When you say four years, are you saying ‘98-”02 that he was still on the payroll at that price?”

Ross responded, “That’s what I’m saying, Conrad. Here’s the deal. All Shawn wanted to do was go work and go play with Kevin Nash and Scott Hall. So that would have been for WCW nice to get a gift of Shawn Michaels, wouldn’t you think? So Vince took good care of him.”

Vince would never let Shawn get away to WCW. He's getting his ass kicked by WCW, almost entirely because he let half the Kliq leave, so he would have been totally spooked to let who he saw as the best one join them.

I think if Vince chose to keep Bret, Bret remaining champion until Austin's coronation, Michaels is off the Mania card entirely, sent home, Vince in "we'll figure out what to do with Shawn some other time" mode.

Triple H can still start DX 2.0 in Shawn's absence (which would probably be Bret's next feud).

Bret, I think, fits in better in Attitude Era WWF than is often thought of. First of all, Bret was part of a lot of proto-Attitude Era moments (cursing, blood, tables, and so on), the only thing he would really object to is the T&A aspect, but that would just beautifully play into his heel persona. In the way that Kurt Angle, the ultimate square, fit into the Attitude Era, I think Bret would, too. WWF loved heel figures objecting to their content, Bret would have been awesome in that role.

PLUS.

Bret was just getting started working with Undertaker. He hadn't worked much with Foley. The Rock adores Bret for working with him when he was green and they would have done great stuff once The Rock becomes The Rock. There was so much there for him to still do. 

I think Shawn comes in and out, like he did "injured" as authority figures, only to work matches, sometimes. So, a better version of that. 

He and Bret are kept away from each other, and like Baker said, with Austin as the ace, neither feels buried by the other, they're merely doing different stuff, at the same level, just below Austin. There's no seething, "I can't believe HE is the ace and not me," because neither are the ace.

And every time Shawn acts out, Vince just sends him home again. He's got Austin now. He doesn't have to put up with it, anymore. 

Whoa...

This almost sounds like the only deal better than reality.

Back to What If world...No Screwjob would mean 50% less wrestling podcast content.

Should start doing that. Just asking randoms what they thought about the screwjob.

One of my first vivid memories of PW was hitting refresh of the party thread and following the play by play. It felt better than actually watching the PPV and they got me hook, line and sinker with the World Championship win. There were only two issues

1. THOSE TIGHTS
2. THAT HAIR

Wasn't there some story where they ruined his tights and he just had to roll with it? I feel like that's something Shawn has openly acknowledged was terrible.

Speaking of...

...was so bummed when they put the title back on HHH at Armaggeddon 2003. Steiner/Shawn made way more sense and RVD/HBK should have been the RAW Championship match at Mania, dammit!

Armageddon 2003 or 2002?

I think Pete was talking about 2002 but I was bummed when it happened in 2003!

Didn't they just replay 2002 IN 2003?

They certainly didn't have DA MAN lose to HHH & Kane, that would be absurd. Moreso than having JBL beating Eddie, Booker and Undertaker single handed in one night.

What a downer period in general. I wasn't a huge Brock guy and got serious schadenfreude when he lost to The Big Show of all people but that was a lousy way to follow up HIAC. I think the story of Kurt wrestling through another broken freakin' neck would have been better and Team Lesnar would have worked better than Team Angle owing to Shelton/Brock's history. Then you pull the trigger on Benoit/Brock with Benoit/Edge being the feud coming off Wrestlemania XX.

Nov 16, 2022 1:04:04 GMT Baker said:

Back to What If world...No Screwjob would mean 50% less wrestling podcast content.

No Screwjob would mean 50% less things for Bret Hart to talk about.