Round robin format tournaments/leagues in wrestling is one (a pet peeve) for me. I really loathe the concept of round robin anything. I remember it was always one of my turnoffs of WCW back in the day all the battle bowl stuff and the round robin tournaments at Starrcade was so lame. It's probably why I can't get into other sports that do it either. I've booked a tag league in my fan fiction and it's set up like 1950's NFL, 12 teams divided into 2 divisions of 6 each. Each team plays a 12 week schedule and plays division opponents twice each, top 2 win-loss records from each division after 12 weeks/games make a single elimination 4 team tournament for the title.

I liked seeing it done in NXT for Mae Young and the CWs, but those round robins were used sparingly. G1 and Super Juniors every year really is exhausting and just too much to consume. I wrote one up in my last SSB fed and it was a nightmare planning it out for TV. I think just the visual updated brackets is the real MVP rather than endless throwaway matches. It's basically an iron man match with a lot of participants. It's all filler until the end.

Both G-1 and Super Juniors are split into divisions, so clearly Shin is a huge fan!

Here's your chance to hook another one, Emperor!

I'm done with tournaments. AEW held 15 in just over 3 years, I'm dreading it nearly as much as MJF making a guy run through a gauntlet in order to challenge him. Now Jericho has gotten in on that act as well...

I don't understand why round robins are so awful, yet splitting the field in two and having two half-sized round robin tournaments is great.

I do like the concept of tournaments but they can be overdone, thanks AEW. An important factor in pro-wrestling tourmanents is unpredictable. Almost always you have a single elimination tournament where only two people can realistically win, which means all but one of the matches are predictable.

The G1 is a great format. Sure you have some guys that clearly won't win, but they can play spoiler, and usually there are at least three candidates who could feasibly win, if not more. I'm sure the same applies for a one division round robin.

I like it because it's an annual fixture and it's the closest you'll get to a weekly NJPW show. I wouldn't be as into it if WWE or AEW ran their own version because their product is over-exposed as is.

King of Trios and BOLA hold the same appeal as well.

Was there ever a good KOTR besides 1993?

I always liked when KOTR was a real PPV. Like where all the main matches took place in the same show. Neo Zeed probably has fond memories of 93 with Bret having 3 different matches in one night against varying opponents. Then it seemed like they would go back and forth on it having quarters on Raw and only doing semi-finals on PPV. That always took some prestige away since it wasn't as impressive winning twice vs. 3. Just came off bush league and midcard since all the big players had REAL matches outside the tournament.

But I suppose when you're booking HIAC and Austin/Kane first blood... the importance of a Ken Shamrock tourney win just ain't cutting it...

TNA's Bound for Glory Series was pretty cool when it happened I would not mind it being brought back with a few changed. Maybe down size to 6 and rotate yearly between all the titles world, KO, X, tag team.

Feb 6, 2023 0:06:06 GMT bodyslam said:

TNA's Bound for Glory Series was pretty cool when it happened I would not mind it being brought back with a few changed. Maybe down size to 6 and rotate yearly between all the titles world, KO, X, tag team.

That series where Bobby Roode won, TNA had all the momentum in the world. As did Roode.

Then they botched it, Roode did the job to Angle, Storm won the title the next week and then dropped the belt to Roode. I'd love to hear the story here and how empty headed Bischoff and Hogan were booking this shit, and killing the entire program.

My memory is fuzzy but didn't TNA completely botch the fixtures during the original Bound For Glory series so they quickly had to bring the tournament to an end and have Roode win a #1 contenders match at the PPV leading into BFG? I just remember the initial hype because it was so different only to disappoint fans.

Roode failing and Storm winning was clearly trying to make Bobby into a heel which is his natural disposition. I didn't mind that and if anything it established both Storm & Roode to help change the main event scene which had grown stale over time.

I remember it felt like a collective kick to the balls - Bobby was looking to beat Angle... then he loses, and it felt as if they threw the Storm match in there shortly afterwards in a rather to hasty way to appease the fans, and then hot-potatoed the title to Roode to correct the mistake.

I believe Roode ran the series as a babyface, and was obviously booked to be very capable of becoming a contender, then to win the belt with a bottle to Storm's head a heel turn was a total contradiction to all the ability he showed as a face.

Something tells me something fishy was going on, or Dixie, Bischoff and Hogan had been drinking too much Russo Juice and just wanted the swerve.

Feb 6, 2023 7:51:26 GMT NATH45 said:

I remember it felt like a collective kick to the balls - Bobby was looking to beat Angle... then he loses, and it felt as if they threw the Storm match in there shortly afterwards in a rather to hasty way to appease the fans, and then hot-potatoed the title to Roode to correct the mistake.

I believe Roode ran the series as a babyface, and was obviously booked to be very capable of becoming a contender, then to win the belt with a bottle to Storm's head a heel turn was a total contradiction to all the ability he showed as a face.

Something tells me something fishy was going on, or Dixie, Bischoff and Hogan had been drinking too much Russo Juice and just wanted the swerve.

The way they got to Storm winning the title was flimsy and typical TNA where they spent months building towards a PPV, only to give away the title change on TV. Otherwise it felt like a deliberate move since Roode was a bland babyface and there wasn't anywhere for him to go as champion. By going in that direction, they had a hot match they could build to.

Feb 5, 2023 17:22:35 GMT @ness said:

I always liked when KOTR was a real PPV. Like where all the main matches took place in the same show. Neo Zeed probably has fond memories of 93 with Bret having 3 different matches in one night against varying opponents. Then it seemed like they would go back and forth on it having quarters on Raw and only doing semi-finals on PPV. That always took some prestige away since it wasn't as impressive winning twice vs. 3. Just came off bush league and midcard since all the big players had REAL matches outside the tournament.

But I suppose when you're booking HIAC and Austin/Kane first blood... the importance of a Ken Shamrock tourney win just ain't cutting it...

Oh yes KOTOR 93 is masterclass booking with Bret, it was essentially the same real life booking played out with Royce Gracie in the first 4 UFC tournaments is why I fell in love with him/UFC too. To me Pride had the best tournament booking they would have a 16 man Grand Prix every year split up over 3 shows(Total Elimination would have the round of 16, Critical Countdown would have the round of 8, then Final Conflict would always be one of the biggest shows would have the Semifinals and finals).

Don’t get me mixed up I love single elimination tournaments but I just hate the round robin deal where everybody just wrestles everybody where you get points for wins/losses/draw.

Feb 5, 2023 17:12:10 GMT Big Pete said:

Was there ever a good KOTR besides 1993?

Tournament wise, no. Complete show wise, yes (1998). The 1994 tourney was alright. All the rest were varying degrees of awful. One night tourneys with only four participants are an automatic fail. 95 & 99 sucked. 2000 had the right personnel but it didn't come together.
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I've been a sucker for wrestling tournaments going all the way back to the Crockett Cup days. Wrestling tournaments just seemed so big and important to kiddie me. Wrestlemania IV was hype. Always loved KOTR as a concept even though they rarely got it right. 1994 J-Cup was either the first or second Japanese wrestling tape I ever got. Finally making it to an ECWA Super 8 in 2002 meant I got to cross something off my bucket list. Got a few IWA-MS Ted Petty Invitationals on tape. Even got a CZW Best of the Best or two and I looked down my nose at CZW unless Teddy was there. Went to the 2009 CHIKARA King of Trios on a whim. That was the only wrestling show I went to during an eight year period. I was even hyped for the lowly 1996 WWF Tag Team tournament. 

Moral of the Story: Tournaments drew Baker dimes

Tournaments just give it prestige and "REAL SPORTS" feel that insecure @ness craved growing up. That and my first REALSIES PPV was Deadly Games. Ness Fact: Before I figured out the "routine" of WWF booking and events I just thought Survivor Series was the automatic tournament for the belt. And so I thought it was bad luck to win the October PPV...

They dropped KOTR from the "big 5" like a bad habit and didn't look back.

On round robin the only thing I actually liked about them is you tend to see some midcard scum get fluke wins over mains, but they can just say it don't count cuz no title match so everyone gets heat back. I just don't have the attention span for the long form tournaments like that. BFG Series though is one of those things TNA coulda really made work. Rumble is luck most of the time. But winning a hard fought tournament over a month or two really earns it. But that's a little too sportsie.

Anyone remember that tournament Bret Hart won for the WCW Title? It may have been my then 16 year old brain, but it felt like that went forever.

I still love the idea that Austin was in a QUALIFYING match for the KOTR. Not the quarter, they making him try out for the event. Man imagine a real Austin/Brock tournament end. I couldn't tell you anything about Brock/RVD. Though at least at the time I was convinced both semis were great matches. Dunno if they were...

Feb 7, 2023 1:41:48 GMT @ness said:

I couldn't tell you anything about Brock/RVD. 

I can. It made me sad.
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The round robin that sticks with me is the 2003 ROH Field of Honor full of midcarders. Hyped would be too strong a word, but I was at least intrigued by the concept. It flopped and they never brought it back. Matt Stryker beat BJ Whitmer to win the thing in a snoozer I was unfortunate enough to see live. Killed poor Stryker's career. 

I've always been curious about the KOTR tournaments they had before it became a PPV, like didn't Bret win one in like 1991? It was like a house show deal for a while before it became the PPV but I've never really looked into those tournaments.

I did kinda dig how the KOTR 98 tournament played out over TV there for however long they did those qualifying matches for. 

I know MMA is cringed upon pretty hard by the wrestling fans here, understandably so, but you got to put yourselves in my shoes as a kid from an older generation back before the Ultimate Fighter or Dana White or TNA or any of that stuff was even thought of. You got to realize I came up in an era when you had to rent all the tapes at the video store, and I mean the UFC tapes were always right there mixed in with WWF. I really think my love of the first King Of The Ring 93/Bret was why I was instantly in love with the UFC when it was new. When UFC first came out it was just tournaments, so like imagine a new wrestling league where every show is KOTR 93, 8 guys in a bracket and one guy wins. An each of the first 8 events played out with it's own drama and it's own heroes and villains just like KOTR 93. A lot of the fighters were total works like they had gimmicks and made up backgrounds and shit("The Ghetto Man" Joe Charles=GOAT). Royce Gracie was Bret Hart. Then Dan Severn brought the NWA belt over from 1905 and the mustache to match it, OG suplex city. If you love pro wrestling and tournaments I would highly recommend watching at least the first 3-4 UFC shows from 1993-94 you would be surprised what they really were, especially if you know some Japanese wrestling background going in.

I've often wondered what a pro wrestling fed would look like in that perpetual tournament format like the old UFC, 4-5-6 shows a year and eventually by the 5th show they established a World Champ that would just defend the belt on every show against the tournament winner from the previous event. Then every December they would do like an All Star "Ultimate Ultimate" tournament with all the previous winners/finalists/fan favorites. They ended up killing this format for the 9th UFC show and went with a boxing style fight card. It was bashed hard by the fans so they went back to the tournament with the 10th and 11th shows. Then after the 11th UFC they split it up into 2 weight classes, with 2 separate 4 man tournaments(Heavyweight and middleweight), and it instantly killed the whole vibe of it all. 

Feb 7, 2023 1:37:18 GMT NATH45 said:

Anyone remember that tournament Bret Hart won for the WCW Title? It may have been my then 16 year old brain, but it felt like that went forever.

The WCW Mayhem tournament, Russo's brain-child and a tie-in to the new video game they were promoting. They had less than a month to complete a 32 man tournament and they insisted every match had to take place on Nitro. So the execution was really scatterbrained despite the tournament playing out well. Bret-Benoit in Toronto for the WCW title sounds like an appropriate final but things just utterly fell apart for WCW after this point. Hall spiralled further out of control, Bret suffered a concussion, Goldberg nearly lost an arm and in trying to re-write the entire show Russo got fired which led to Benoit, Eddie, Dean, Saturn & Douglas all walking out. Except the WWF wanted nothing to do with Shane, but fortunately for the Franchise he came back to WCW with a serious push.

The kicker was that the Mayhem video game was a serious step back from Revenge. I couldn't wait to play it and had to wait nearly 6 months after the US to play it. What I got was an unresponsive game where everyone walked around with T-rex arms.

The kicker to Roode-Angle now that I think about it was that after all that build, the finish to the match sucked. It seemed like an obvious red herring except they played it straight and Roode just lost despite Kurt blatantly grabbing the rope and Bobby having his entire arm underneath. It was just such a huge anti-climax to end on and I'd imagine you along with others felt like TNA were back-tracking.