So last week Lita wasn’t at her best in the women’s tag title match and whenever it got pointed out online people were instantly vilified for pointing it out. If anyone saw else the return of Kevin Kiley (Alex Riley) in NWA which went horribly, comments were way more brutal.

Same goes with the Wrestlemania 35 main event whenever the botched finish gets brought up people are quick to defend it endlessly.
Maybe it’s just that the women’s division inspires a lot of Stan culture the same way pop stars do where people will just defend their favourites to the death but it gets frustrating.

Like the people that kept screaming for women’s only PPVs that didn’t draw or get good buys and promoter is the bad guy for not wanting to do another show. Fair enough to the people that supported said shows but it seems most with this sentiment don’t vote with their wallet.

There’s been some incredible women’s matches and new stars emerge over the last few years but I feel like even the worst botched filled matches must be immune to criticism.

What are your thoughts?

These things are always going to go both ways. but there are far more antagonists than gatekeepers in this case. To counter your examples you can find millions of wrestling fans making sexist comments about women wrestlers or saying things like "it was good for a women's match" rather than just calling it good.

Women's PPVs not selling is a line that seems to hang around because of a Meltzer report prior to Evolution saying that ticket sales were slow, but they ended up selling out the arena once Ronda vs Nikki was announced. Billy Corgan made it sound like running another Empower show wasn't viable but (although a little bit murky) the evidence pointed towards it selling more than a standard NWA PPV - and it seemed like he was really just covering for fucking up his relationship with Tony Khan, and then Mickie James.

You're having an argument online and today's opponent has you on the ropes....

What to do?

He's a conservative?

Easy. Call him a Nazi.

They're a liberal?

Easy. Call them woke.

Ok but, how do you respond to someone critical of women's sport, movies, music, etc?

Easy. Call them a misogynist. Game over.

After that you don't need to say anything else. You've won the internet today. But worry about the valid points your opponent made or facts or reality. You've won.

I've never had that experience. At best there were some fans who pointed out that others missed their cue which didn't help Lita's cause.

Also, I thought everyone was in a coma by the main event of Wrestlemania XXXV? The only time I see it referenced was how unprofessional Ronda was for refusing to accept a clean pin and put Becky over.

Meanwhile over in AEW, the women are constantly criticised.

'Britt takes up too much TV time, every ex-WWE talent is overrated, they can't get over without blood, Japanese schoolgirls, Athena is too stiff etc.'

I won't even touch the more offensive Nyla Rose and Jade Cargill comments I've seen/heard.

It seems like they're fair game to me.

The point System is making is, when performances aren't very good or a worker straight up sucks - they shouldn't be immune to criticism solely on the basis of sex.

John Cena was criticised his entire career. As was Triple H for much of it. And we're talking about two all time greats. And I'm sure there's more high profile male workers who are given constant criticism.

When things go bad in wrestling is when people are working outside of their capabilities. If cruiserweight Johnny Gargano starts trying to deadlift his opponents - he's going to botch it. If Top Dolla tries to fly over the top rope - he's going to botch it. And both men should be criticised for putting themselves and others in danger. They need to work within their physical capabilities. Similarly, women need to work within their physical capabilities also to maximum their performances. But so many don't or they push the absolute limits of what they can do or should do. I cringe every time I see a suicide dive from one of the female workers, when they barely hit the opposite rope and exit the ropes with a quarter the pace of even a similar sized male worker and often come up short.

And unfortunately there will always be a difference in perceived quality between men and women's matches especially when " workrate " and athletic ability has become so important. For the most men and women are built differently. Men are usually taller, stronger and heavier and those attributes allow for different abilities.

Yes, and my point is that they've always been fair game.

Look at the reaction Ronda Rousey vs. Shotzi Blackheart or some of the NXT matches received. Look at how well Marina Schafir has been received in AEW...

I'm not here to call BS, but I'm genuinely curious where these conversations around Lita and Wrestlemania XXXV were happening? Because again on here, on reddit and on my timeline at best Lita got a 'bless her heart' type reception.

ya women can't do a suicide dive

4/10 too many flips didn't sell the back enough to my liking.

Fantastic. I also can post gifs.

TIL: Iyo Skye is not a woman.

Nobody is saying that women are incapable of botching but it's silly to use such broad strokes. Even so, all three performers were criticised for that spot. Lita nearly breaking her neck is the main thing anyone remembers from the first official RAW women's main event. Sasha Banks was constantly criticised for being reckless and it was the biggest argument against her being the best of the IV Horsewomen. That Brie Bella match was rightfully panned and considered one of the all-time worst performances alongside Jackie Gayda.

Biggest L NATH45 has taken since...oh actually just a couple of days ago when he thought Vince McMahon's racism somehow meant that Japan (literally the country that has produced the most incredible technical and athletic pro wrestlers in history) wasn't a good place to train wrestling. 

In recent years several top Stardome girls left wrestling over hate they got online, Himeka being the latest. Then there was Hana's suicide, driven by non-stop hate. Stateside, people relentless harassed Paige, sometimes going as far as to do it at her house. Bliss also gets constant harassment she talks about.

This is what people claim is just criticising people though, while ignoring how far this goes.

Mar 7, 2023 21:59:39 GMT @admin said:

Biggest L NATH45 has taken since...oh actually just a couple of days ago when he thought Vince McMahon's racism somehow meant that Japan (literally the country that has produced the most incredible technical and athletic pro wrestlers in history) wasn't a good place to train wrestling. 

Has NATH45  ever heard of the All Japan women promotion? they've only had some of the top wrestlers no matter the gender in the history of the art from.

If they're so good how come they never main evented wrestlemania?

Checkmate "smart" marks.

Mar 7, 2023 22:50:15 GMT Ed said:

Mar 7, 2023 21:59:39 GMT @admin said:

Biggest L NATH45 has taken since...oh actually just a couple of days ago when he thought Vince McMahon's racism somehow meant that Japan (literally the country that has produced the most incredible technical and athletic pro wrestlers in history) wasn't a good place to train wrestling. 

Has NATH45  ever heard of the All Japan women promotion? they've only had some of the top wrestlers no matter the gender in the history of the art from.

Manami Toyota's name starts with man so she doesn't count. 

You guys are all silly, women should sit at home, that is how they learn best, not in dojos in Japan where they wrestle for hours a day. Let them wrestle once a month or so and they will be perfectly fine. Can't have them getting hurt and all.

Those hello kitty strikes and head drops aren't real wrestling!

You've proven @systems point.

And you've proven mine.

Make a point on race = racist.

We can talk about any number of Japanese talents to make any sort of significant impact in the biggest market for pro wrestling in the world over the last 20 years, but the conversation would start and end with Asuka and Nakamura. And before c stands up too quickly in outrage and scares his cat - double check the representation of minorities and use of women from the two biggest companies in the United States. It ain't AEW leading the march unless a calendar month stipulates it and there's a hashtag to follow suite.

Make a point on gender = misogynist.

We can talk about women in wrestling as a whole, or we can " use broad strokes " and highlight the few of extreme notable talent and pretend this kind of ability is present in every performer. Or we can look at it realistically. It's the same reason why people don't watch the WNBA, WAFL, because that same level of talent and athletic ability isn't there. It's a hard pill to swallow Champs, but that's a reality.

If any of you need a safe space and feel triggered, the internet ain't for you.

I knew you'd fall back on your buzzwords. :lol:

No one is triggered - we are literally laughing at how stupid you are. All of the points you have tried to make in this thread have been laughable - and Big Pete especially has completely shown why. 

I don't agree with what System was trying to argue with this thread, but at least he came with some specific examples of stuff that he'd read online. I think he tried to take the opinions of a few and generalise it across all fans too much, but at least it was based in something. You just talk utter shit and then when anyone (and in this case everyone) calls you on it fall back on the anti-woke buzzwords that you think justify your terrible takes.

Anyway I can see this is going to turn into another one of your crappy back and forth with C now that you've baited him with YET ANOTHER CAT line like the uncreative bore you are so I'm out. 

And this is why every woman but Maiden left this site...

I think most intergender wrestling is boring when it lacks proper storytelling, just like any other type of wrestling. I think Madison Rayne has some of the most horrendous strikes ever but she is also 1 of the most creative minds in the business. I think all of us are capable of being discerning & levelheaded even when we disagree. NATH45 is bored. So instead of being logical, he frames an argument in extremes on purpose to make himself look rational. When in reality, it's just a ploy to get a reaction out of the rest of us. Which is also an ego-stroking wankfest to make himself feel important. I know your style, man. I deal with it everywhere else I turn. I use this place as a refuge. Cut this shit out.

Might not surprise you guys but I’m team NATH45, in this argument.

Plus c “women should stay home” is literally what nobody thinks. I mean you’re not a woman and that’s all you do so clearly you identify as the joke you’re trying to make.

No that was literally argued elsewhere. That a wrestler who wanted to improve would be better off sitting at home most of the month and only wrestle once or twice, instead of training in Japan for several months, because she could get hurt.

Mar 7, 2023 3:43:46 GMT @admin said:

These things are always going to go both ways. but there are far more antagonists than gatekeepers in this case. To counter your examples you can find millions of wrestling fans making sexist comments about women wrestlers or saying things like "it was good for a women's match" rather than just calling it good.

Women's PPVs not selling is a line that seems to hang around because of a Meltzer report prior to Evolution saying that ticket sales were slow, but they ended up selling out the arena once Ronda vs Nikki was announced. Billy Corgan made it sound like running another Empower show wasn't viable but (although a little bit murky) the evidence pointed towards it selling more than a standard NWA PPV - and it seemed like he was really just covering for fucking up his relationship with Tony Khan, and then Mickie James.

I think part of that is that the women's wrestling division much like with WNBA or Women's Soccer while is talented in it's own right, continue to use the "Empower women/support women!" moniker rather than let the play speak for itself. There's a level of victimhood unfortunately that ends up turning away viewers which is what hurts WNBA and Women's soccer. 

This is coming from someone like me who routinely mocked women's wrestling as a whole and ended up respecting if not downright looking forward to it with the little wrestling that I still watch(NXT). It's very good but it does get to be a bit eyerolling whenever the women try to make it a women vs man sort of thing every time someone critiques the matches. 

Jordynne Grace does this practically on a weekly basis over on twitter and it gets a bit tiresome TBH.

Like the guys, women's wrestling varies greatly in quality. Japan always has been the gold standard, and it goes down to local shows with untrained women cat fighting after a couple weeks of training. Even the people who advocate supporting women will punch down if not publically, privately in the locker room. Seen it before working shows.

Sadly every time the quality talks come up, people use it to just straight out hate on women in general, claiming they are inferior to men. Which I always found weird given some of the best matches I ever seen be it hardcore, high flying or just straight wrestling have been Japanese girls. It is also funny how many "innovative" moves you see are just people stealing from Joshi workers. Let's do the fast list that I know generally offhand:

Jackhammer - Jaguar Yokota
Kneeling Tiger Driver - Jaguar Yotoka
Gutwrench Powerbomb - Akira Hokuto
Northern Lights Bomb - Akira Hokuto
God's Last Gift - Akira Hokuto
Skytwister press - ASARI
Death Valley Driver - Etsuko Mita
Burning Hammer - Kyoko Inoue
Air Raid Crash - Mariko Yoshida
Vertibreaker - Megumi Kudo
Stretch Plum - Plum Mariko
Ocean Cyclone Suplex - Manami Toyota

But still said women cannot do the same things men can do.

Mar 8, 2023 1:09:30 GMT c said:

No that was literally argued elsewhere. That a wrestler who wanted to improve would be better off sitting at home most of the month and only wrestle once or twice, instead of training in Japan for several months, because she could get hurt.

No. That wasn't the comment at all.

Mar 4, 2023 10:15:54 GMT NATH45 said:

" No dev system is on par with the Japanese dojos "

This statement is supported by the vast number of Japanese talent to find success in the United States. 🙄

And there wasn't even a single mention of " she could get hurt " or any follow-up from that comment along those lines.

My initial comment was suggesting an in-house developmental system, or working with vets who can teach her on the job.

If anything my remark was more aimed at the notion of training overseas for a completely different style, and look, proof is in the pudding - how many Japanese workers have transitioned to the USA with WWE/AEW levels of success?

But somehow this was racist and involved Vince McMahon.

I really hope this was an experiment to see how long it would take to see how quickly people went on the attack, because (and the irony may be lost on a few) you can't criticise women's wrestling. As proven.