Just noticed that this show turned 30 years old last week on the 4th. What are our thoughts on this event all these years later? I remember I used to think this was a skippable Mania, it was not rented by me as much as VIII or X. Always used to hate how Bret lost his title here. But looking back now it only made me like Bret more, rooting hard for him through that next year to get back to the top.

I have grown to really appreciate this show now. The whole Greek setting is goofy fun but works, and I love the magic of outdoor sunlight it looks especially cool for Taker's entrance. Did this entire show take place in broad daylight? Also this was the same venue where Haggler vs Hearns was right?

I've also grown to love the whole Bret vs Yoko dynamic, Canada vs Japan, Shooter vs Sumo, David vs Goliath, World title on the line. Good stuff, for some reason gives me Pride FC vibes.

Shamelessly always have loved the whole little Taker vs Giant Gonzalez feud and especially this match. 

Great setting. Mediocre show. May write more later when I have time.

The little things: Bobby Heenan calling himself a broadcast journalist, "YOKOZUNA NUMBA ONE!", the little kids in the crowd yelling "FUCK YOU" at Razor during his entrance.

Also love that Fonzie got his Mania moment.

2 world title matches in under 10 minutes. You can't beat the efficiency.

This is what I said when I finally watched through all the classic Manias.

Wrestlemania IX - I really wanted to like this show. The Caser Palace theme, the more forgiving run-time, the fresh faces, JR on commentary all the ingredients were there but it just didn't deliver. The guys worked their asses off, but they were given nothing to work with and the booking was so wishy washy that by the Mega Maniacs/Money Inc match it was undeniably a bad show. I used to think Hogan winning the title was the worst part of the show, but now it's easily my favourite. The majority of the show was a train wreck, so having Hogan set things right to give the fans some hope that the WWF may recapture it's glory years ended the show on a far more intriguing note.

That's rough. I'd have to watch the show again to go into more detail but if I was to take a guess, I just felt a lot of matches had weak stories and the more interesting matches like Taker/Gonzales had terrible finishes. I wonder if a rewatch would make it a questionably bad show?

HATED the conceptual aspect of ANCIENT GREECE. Had to be a Vince idea.

Marked out for the surprise Hogan title win, at the time. It's kind of a proto-ECW booking, if you think about it. Everything before that was incredibly underwhelming. Watched it live at my best friend's house and we were just sort of sitting on our hands the entire event. Waiting for anything to happen. So, the Hogan thing, like Big Pete said, was a very welcomed saving grace. The booking is probably bad, and I understand why it's hated now, but 8-year-old me loved it. I'm not seeing much to look back fondly on, although I haven't done a rewatch, maybe it's better than I remember.

All the Yokozuna reappraisal people on here need to be reminded that he got winded and made Bret fast forward to the finish. It was supposed to be 5 minutes longer (and better). Truly, a horrible title reign, can't even wrestle 15 minutes with the GOAT leading him. And then it lasted another 7 months almost immediately after, and he was basically useless in the WMX rematch.

Apr 8, 2023 14:05:13 GMT Baker said:

Great setting. Mediocre show. 

Stand by this. Highlights were few and far between- Rick Steiner catching a Headshrinker with a powerslam whilst in Doomsday Device position, debut of Double Doinks leading to a pleasant surprise upset in the Crush match, Taker making his own save, and....that's about it.

MOTN for me was Steiners/Shrinkers pipping HBK/Tatanka for having decent action and a slightly less bad finish. 

The other thing I'll say in 9's defense is it had HYPE, and we all know build is half the battle. "But Baker! You were hyped for every single WWF PPV from Wrestlemania 3 until IYH DX except maybe Tuesday In Texas but not really since we all know you'd have dropped what you were doing and watched TIT (lol) if one of your friends ordered it." Yeah, ok, fair enough, but I was more hyped for 9 than 8, 10, 11, and probably 7! That's a lot of hype!

Narcissist/Perfect and Taker/Gonzalez were the big draws for me coming in. Both disappointed when I finally got to watch the show some 2.5-3 years later (I had no way of watching pay per views at the time). But coming into it Narc & Perfect were both red hot. Had no idea who was going over. Felt like a real clash of the titans. A main event anywhere in the country to 1993 me. Honestly would have been fine with them strapping up either guy and having it main event. And you guys know I was always hyped for Undertaker freak show monster mashes. How is my guy going to overcome this giant who is a full foot taller? CAN he overcome this giant? And if not, is ANYBODY safe from his impending reign of terror? Sure the match and Gonzalez himself ended up sucking, but I was never this hyped for a match involving Brian Pillman, Eddie Guerrero, Lance Storm, and dozens, if not hundreds, of other "good wrestlers." 

Another sort of cool thing coming into the show was "knowing" Hogan would be stuck in the midcard for a while. Hogan & Beefer were "obviously" going over Money Inc for the tag titles. I'd have bet every dime I had on it. And sure that sucked for Money Inc, but at least it would keep Hogan away from the WWF Championship for a while.

Had zero interest in the main. My feelings on Bret's first title reign are well documented. Yoko I liked a lot at first. Used to go around doing his pre-match Sumo schtick irl. But this noob winning the Rumble and main eventing Mania was all a bit too much, too soon. Just wasn't feeling it, y'know? First midcard Mania main.

Yet still I was shocked and appalled when I learned the big news at school by eavesdropping on an otherwise obscure character named AJ who was telling his long forgotten friend about the show at lunch. "OH NO! Not Hogan! Not AGAIN!" I could have cried.

But after thinking about it a bit I realized it was the most logical thing in the world and was even kicking myself for not seeing it coming from a mile away. OF COURSE they're going to put Hogan back on top asap! Same reason the Bulls ain't building around Toni Kukoc no more once Jordan comes back. The real stars are back now, brother. Time to send Saint Bret d'Alberta back to the midcard where he belongs. Fwiw I still think get a kick out of people who think Bret should have went over Hogan in any way in 1993. That's right up there with Jericho as a serious GOAT contender when it comes to lolworthy takes that have gained some traction over the years.

I do have a fascination with outdoor daylight wrestling shows, I have only gotten in touch with this recently but it's always been there. The wind flowing is one of my favorite little things about Savage vs Warrior from Summerslam 92. I love the whole daylight element of Mania IX.

But watching this show and realizing this was 30 fucking years ago got me thinking about really what the world was like back then. Was Monday Night Raw even a thing yet? ECW Hardcore TV is about to debut in a couple weeks. The UFC doesn't exist yet, I don't think even Pancrase exists yet, but it's been bubbling over in Japan with UWFI and RINGS thriving from spillover of the UWF popularity in 88-89-90, Ken Shamrock is a killer from his days in Fujiwara Gumi but nobody in the USA even knows who he is or that this shoot wrestling stuff was legit bad ass prototype of all MMA. I think at this point in 93 Sayama’s shooto group was the furthest ahead of the curve. Really Ken taking on Royce Gracie that November was like some Star Wars airport paperback novel level coming full circle shit for all martial arts and wrestling when you take in all of the context. 

WM was a forgettable show. I'm shocked everyone is pro-Hulk here. The title switch came across as being dated, desperate & lame to me. I feel like time has proven me right. Fans were tired of seeing Hogan on top. His reign was something from a bygone era.

Still get a kick out of Hogan "checking on" Bret as if he gave a shit.

Did they try to spin as not only Hulk checking on Bret but also Bret giving Hulk permission to fight Yoko for the belt? :lol:  I'm unclear on that.

Apr 14, 2023 23:12:05 GMT Ed said:

WM was a forgettable show. I'm shocked everyone is pro-Hulk here. The title switch came across as being dated, desperate & lame to me. I feel like time has proven me right. Fans were tired of seeing Hogan on top. His reign was something from a bygone era.

That's all absolutely true. But in the moment, I was like FUCK YEAAAAAHHHH

Apr 14, 2023 23:31:12 GMT Ed said:

Did they try to spin as not only Hulk checking on Bret but also Bret giving Hulk permission to fight Yoko for the belt? :lol:  I'm unclear on that.

"It's true I blew it, save us Hulkamania" is what he told him as he waved it to the ring.

Man to be part of the IWC in the early 90s.

I, for one, am sick and tired of all this revisionist history claiming Bret Hart was more popular than Hulk Hogan in 92-93. My gut tells me this is a bold-faced lie perpetuated by the handful of Hogan-hating butthurt smarks who existed in 1993. I trust my gut. It's rarely wrong. I'm operating under the premise that the only people who would have pushed Bret over Hogan in 1993 are Bret himself, Verne "Out Of Business" Gagne, Scott Keith, maybe a dozen other Observer readers, and perhaps a few of Bret's family members who wanted to leech off the new top guy so they could get back in the business themselves. So about 20 for Bret to millions for Hogan. My goal here is to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that The Hulkster has been victimized by a cruel, propagandistic 30 year smear campaign which has managed to sway the minds of younger folks who weren't following wrestling yet and a disturbing amount of older people who really should know better. To do this I will look at the cold, hard facts- attendance numbers. Let's find out who is right...

Every WWF Hulk Hogan Match We Have Attendance Numbers For In 1993

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}
3/8- North Charleston, SC- 7,800 paid (tv taping)
3/9- Augusta, GA- 8,000 (sellout- tv taping)
3/19- Lakeland, FL- 2,400
4/4- Las Vegas, NV- 14,000 (Wrestlemania)
5/21- Pittsburgh, PA- 6,600 paid
5/22- Philadelphia, PA- 8,415
5/22- East Rutherford, NJ- 11,000
6/4- Winnipeg, Canada- 6,500
6/5- Minneapolis, MN- 3,300
6/6- Albany, NY- 3,000
6/11- Richmond, VA- 1,850
6/12- Indianapolis, IN- 2,500
6/13- Dayton, OH- 7,000 paid (KOTR)
6/14- Columbus, OH- 3,700 (tv taping)
6/15- Huntington, WV- 4,400 (tv taping)
6/26- Boston, MA- 3,500
7/29- Vienna, Austria- 7,000 (sellout- no Bret Hart on show)
8/1- Munich, Germany- 12,000 (sellout- no Bret)
8/6- Sheffield, England- 10,000 (sellout- no Bret)

Average: 6,471.8
North American Average: 5,872.8
Canadian Average: 6,500
European Average: 9,666.6
NA House Shows Only: 4,901.5
US House Shows Only: 4,729.4
======================
Every Non-Raw* Bret Hart Match During His 92-93 WWF Championship Run That We Have Attendance Figures For
*Raw exempt because they were only running a 1,000 seat building. To include it wouldn't be fair to The Hitman. I don't want to be accused of cooking the books. I don't have to! Because in my heart of hearts I know I'm right!

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}
10/14- Hamilton, Canada- 1,200
10/16- Long Island, NY- 8,500
10/17- Philadelphia, PA- 5,000
10/19- Hartford, CT- 2,500
10/23- Denver, CO- 3,750
10/24- Chicago, IL- 4,200
10/26- Springfield, IL- 3,300 paid (tv taping)
10/27- Terre Haute, IN- approx. 4,300 paid (tv taping)
10/28- Louisville, KY- 4,500 (sellout- tv taping)
10/29- Youngstown, OH- 1,200
10/30- Oklahoma City, OK- 1,200
10/31- Evansville, IN- 2,150
11/1- Cape Girardeau, MO- 2,300
11/6- Minneapolis, MN- 2,600
11/8- Orlando, FL- 2,500
11/12- Watsonville, CA- 1,500
11/13- Sacramento, CA- 4,600
11/14- San Bernadino, CA- 1,400
11/14- Los Angeles, CA- 3,865
11/15- Fresno, CA- 3,000
11/15- Oakland, CA- 2,400
11/22- Charlotte, NC- 1,300
11/23- Erie, PA- 4,000 (tv taping)
11/24- Dayton, OH- 7,000 (tv taping- sellout)
11/25- Richfield, OH- 18,000 (Survivor Series)
11/26- Ottawa, Canada- 3,500
11/29- Indianapolis, IN- 2,700
11/29- Chicago, IL- 2,400
12/3- Cornwall, Canada- 2,300
12/4- Montreal, Canada- 6,200
12/5- Boston, MA- 2,400
12/6- Springfield, MA- 2,000
12/10- Phoenix, AZ- 3,400
12/11- San Francisco, CA- 3,000 paid
12/12- Los Angeles, CA- 4,800
12/26- Hartford, CT- 4,000
12/27- Long Island, NY- 9,200
12/27- Worcester, MA- 4,000
===============146165=39=3747.8
1/1- Auburn Hills, MI- 3,600
1/8- Philadelphia, PA- 6,300
1/9- Boston, MA- 5,800
1/9- Portland, ME- 3,415
1/10- Orlando, FL- 2,600
1/14- Dallas, TX- 2,500
1/16- Huntsville, AL- 1,500
1/16- Nashville, TN- 4,800
1/22- Las Cruces, NM- 3,700
1/24- Sacramento, CA- 15,000 paid (sellout- Royal Rumble)
1/29- New York, NY- 12,000
1/30- New Haven, CT- 5,000
1/31- Toronto, Canada- 6,500
2/2- Manchester, England- 5,000 (sellout)
2/7- Hamburg, Germany- 5,782 (sellout)
2/10- Dortmund, Germany- 13,000 (sellout)
2/15- Long Beach, CA- 7,000 paid (tv taping)
2/16- San Diego, CA- 4,000 (tv taping)
2/19- Minneapolis, MN- 3,200
2/20- Landover, MD- 2,700 (putrid number)
2/25- Calgary, Canada- 4,200 (lol @ Canadian Hero St. Bret d'Alberta not even being able to draw big in his own hometown)
3/5- Columbia, MO- 2,400
3/6- Bowling Green, KY- 3,500
3/6- Louisville, KY- 4,200
3/8- North Charleston, SC- 7,800 paid (tv taping)
3/9- Augusta, GA- 8,000 (sellout- tv taping)
3/11- Johnstown, PA- 2,000
3/12- Erie, PA- 3,500
3/19- Lakeland, FL- 2,400
3/20- Albany, NY- 4,750
3/20- New Haven, CT- 3,000
3/21- Boston, MA- 6,000
3/21- New York, NY- 10,400
3/22- St. Louis, MO- 3,600
3/23- Topeka, KS- 1,500
3/24- Wichita, KS- 2,300
3/26- Sacramento, CA- 4,200
3/28- Los Angeles, CA- 5,000
4/4- Las Vegas, NV- 14,000 paid (Wrestlemania)
206,147=39=5285.8

Average: 4516.8
North American Average: 4353.7
Canadian Average: 3,983
European Average: 7927.3
NA House Shows Only: 3,644.9
US House Shows Only: under 3,640 (made a mistake on my calculator I'm not doing all the work again)

Head To Head Matchup

Average: Hogan 6,471.8 vs. Bret 4,516.8
North American Average: Hogan 5.872.8 vs. Bret 4,353.7
European Average: Hogan 9,666.6 vs. Bret 7,927.3
North American House Shows Only: Hogan 4,901.5 vs. Bret 3,644.9
US House Shows Only: Hogan 4,729.4 vs. Bret under 3,640
Canada: Hogan 6,500 vs. Bret 3,983
Philadelphia: Hogan 8,415 vs. Bret 5,650
Minneapolis: Hogan 3,300 vs. Bret 2,900
Albany, NY: Hogan 3,000 vs. Bret 4,750
Indianapolis: Hogan 2,500 vs. Bret 2,700
Boston: Hogan 3,500 vs. Bret 4,733
New York Metropolitan Area: Hogan 11,000 vs. Bret 10,025
 
Analysis: It looks like Hogan in a walk at first glance. He smokes Bret in most major metrics. But you do have to account for Bret working all those podunk towns The Hulkster wouldn't be caught dead in, brother. Even taking away Bret's 10 lowest draws (including some big towns like Charlotte & OK City) in the interest of fairness his overall average draw only bumps up to 4,879- still well below Hogan's 6,472. Meaning it's still a win for Hogan. Just not quite so bad as it looks on paper. But then I didn't really need to waste two hours doing this. Just watch Wrestlemania IX again. Use your own eyes and ears. See and hear for yourselves who gets the biggest pop of the night. Spoiler Alert: It's Hogan, brother.

The European Average is also a bit misleading. We don't have attendance figures for a lot of Bret's Euro appearances, but many are listed simply as "sellout." HOWEVER I see nothing to prove "Mr. International Superstar" Bret Hart outdrew Hogan in Europe, and it's entirely possible, even probable, he did worse. Truth is EVERYBODY from New Generation WWF to WCW to TNA drew well in Europe. Not sure why Saint Bret d'Alberta is the only one who gets credit for drawing big over there when any warm body from a mainstream American wrestling promotion put European butts in seats for like a 20 year span. I'm digging this new Bret Hart debunker gimmick of mine. Might have to keep it up for a while 

Hogan smoking Bret in Canada is hilariously delightful. Let's boil it down. Hogan worked one show in Winnipeg drawing 6,500. Bret worked six shows only equaling Hogan once with 6,500 in Toronto and coming close one other time with 6,200 in Montreal. Bret bombed in the traditional WWF town of Hamilton. Even dismissing that one for being an outlier only bumps Bret up to 4,678 or so. Meaning this is a win for Hogan any way you slice it.

Bret did surprise me by picking up a few head to head wins at the end, including fairly big margins in Albany & Boston....but still not as big as Hogan smacking Bret down in Philly. Minnie, Indy, and Greater NYC were basically all washes. 

Conclusion: Fans all around the world were more into "old and passed it" Hulk Hogan's 1993 comeback than they were to Bret's allegedly "super duper fresh and exciting!" 92-93 title run. Hogan walking out of Wrestlemania IX with the WWF Championship back around his waist was the right call.

The ONLY argument I can see for Bret > Hogan is if you're Vince McMahon and feel like you're not getting your money's worth out of Hogan. But this project was never about that and it's not Hogan's fault Bret whored himself out to be a low paid champion as Scott Hall stated numerous times over the years. 

*Tempted to take this further to see if Bret EVER outdrew Hogan over any extended period of time. Did 94-96 babyface Hogan in lolWCW outdraw Bret? Wouldn't surprise me...

I've always wondered how a face Bret would go over Hogan for those fantasy supposed rumors.

Apr 16, 2023 3:17:39 GMT @ness said:

I've always wondered how a face Bret would go over Hogan for those fantasy supposed rumors.

Hogan would tap clean to the Sharpshooter, brother. Duh. Then he'd shake Bret's hand, put the belt around his waist, and kiss his sacred boots. Of course all those millions and millions of ride or die Hulkamaniacs Hogan brought to the pseudo-sport would be totally accepting of this. More than that, they would suddenly have an epiphany. Realizing they were wrong all along, they would ditch Hogan to worship Saint Bret d'Alberta. You know. The little tag team guy who worked underneath for years while Hogan was hanging and banging with the real stars on top. That's totally the way it would have went down, brother. Don't believe me? Just ask Bret!

LMFAO at anyone who thinks the same fanbase that recently rejected the ULTIMATE WARRIOR (an infinitely bigger star than Bret) would be accepting of The Shitman going over the biggest star in company history clean in a face vs. face match. And with that I have finally found a semi-popular wrestling fan opinion even more lolworthy than Jericho being the GOAT.

It is impossible to imagine Hogan putting Bret over in 1993. He wouldn't even do it in 1998, for fuck's sake. HOWEVAH, that was the plan. WWF Magazine, WWF propaganda, had a tale of the tape in the months leading up to SummerSlam, they were really preparing the audience for the Hogan-Bret showdown, and it couldn't possibly be for Hulk to go over. Obviously, Vince wasn't totally committed to it, or it would have happened, but he had to have been somewhat into the idea for it to get that far. It's crazy to think about, though.

Let's say Vince forced Hulk, like he did with Warrior, Hulk agrees with the, "It won't work, you'll be calling me back in a couple months," attitude he had at WM6, what is the finish? Hulk isn't submitting. Bret's offense is to wear the opponent down, not incapacitate for a pin. Is it a Bret Hart Special pin out of nowhere? That's the only thing I can imagine. And I can't imagine anything before that. It's such an impossible match to picture. 

Rogue camera man, school boy, kick out @ 3.000000000000000001.

I agree that Bret vs Hulk with Bret winning in 1993, it is hard to picture how that match would be laid out and how it would be finished with Bret still being a babyface. You would have to build up the fact that Hogan had slipped a little bit and wasn't the same Hogan, he already looked smaller and just weirder like he had been smoking crack in 1993, possibly not taking those vitamins not training as hard not praying like he used to. In the build up have them respect each other and be friends but Bret is just way more focused on training while Hogan is more focused on charity stuff and spending time with his fans.

You could do something like what they did in the 123 Kid match where Bret scores a pin and the ref doesn't see Hogan's leg under the ropes. Bret has to argue with the ref until another ref finally comes out to restart the match and give Hogan new life. Then we probably would have seen the whole bloody face passing out in the sharpshooter finish 6 years earlier. Or maybe pretty much that without the blood. Then it's all how you spin the aftermath Hogan putting Bret over after the match and the next night on Raw would really be the big thing that all of pro wrestling needed.