Somebody somewhere is running a poll for this. I've been following along. Here's a link.

placetobenation.com/category/wrestling/greatest-wwe-wrestler-ever/

118 people participated in ranking their Top 100 WWE wrestlers of all time. I thought about doing this for a minute before opting out due to having too many blind spots (pre-Hulkamania, the 2010s) and neither the time nor the desire to catch up. Plus knowing that I could never be truly objective. BUT of course I did think about it a little bit. My Top 12 would look something like this....

1. Hogan 
2. Austin
3. Bruno
4. Cena
5. Undertaker
6. Michaels
Then Bret, Savage, HHH, Rock, Backlund & Andre at 7-12 roughly in that order. I imagine Pedro Morales would be Top 15-20. Never really went beyond that.

*Started commenting on some of the names to drop so far. Then I realized I had far too many comments to make. So I stopped. May come back to it again at some point.

I don't know if anybody else has been following this but they're closing in on the Top Ten.
placetobenation.com/author/gwwe/

Biggest travesty is HHH all the way down at #21    There is no way HHH should be outside the Top 10. Now I'm tempted to vote him #1 in everything forever to counterbalance all those damn HHHaters.

Travesty #2: William f'n Regal all the way up at #47. Above Chris Benoit! OK, I suppose I can't get too upset about that since some people might not want to reward a murderer. But he's still above, oh, about one hundred wrestlers too many. Easily the highest ranked wrestler not to crack my own Top 100. At the rate we're going William "DUD" Regal is gonna be considered the GOAT a decade from now and that is most certainly not a world I want to live in. Now I want to take back every nice thing I ever wrote about His Lordship in WCW. But I can't. Because WCW Lord Steven Regal really did rule (as a character. He was still mostly crap in the ring). Maybe I'll make a new list instead- 1000 wrestlers I prefer to watch over William Regal. That one will be a piece of cake.

Travesty #3: Billy Gunn outside the Top 100. I dunno. Maybe I overrate Billy Gunn....Nah. Come on! He's the Arn or Eaton of WWE history! 1/2 of the most over tag team in company history! Two other successful teams! Part of a little something called DX! Plus longevity! Yep. Billy Gunn is totally the 58th greatest wrestler in WWE history. 

I did end up making a belated list because of course I did. Now I regret not getting one in on time. I made the 'too many blind spots' excuse to cover for my laziness but after seeing some of these results.....yeah, I should have just winged it. I came up with my ballot a day or two after starting this thread. Think they had just finished up the 149-125 rankings. It was actually seeing guys like Santino, Hardcore Holly, Godfather, etc. pop up that finally got me to go through with it because I kept wondering to myself whether so and so would make my own ballot.

They had a criteria but I freely admit to placing more importance on things like star power and kayfabe success while downplaying stuff like workrate and match quality. If I adhered strictly to their "NJPW" formula Shawn Michaels likely would have been my #1. But I couldn't in good conscience rate HBK over long term faces of the company like Hogan, Bruno & Austin. So, yeah, I tweaked their formula a tiny bit. But I like to think I was consistent throughout....or at least until the late 90s when a little bit of favoritism came into play. Anyway, without further ado....

SPOILER: Click to show

SPOILER: Click to show

1. Hulk Hogan (3)
2. Bruno Sammartino (8)
3. Steve Austin (2)
4. Undertaker (9)
5. Shawn Michaels [6]
6. John Cena (4)
7. HHH (21)
8. Bret Hart (5)
9. Randy Savage (1)
10. The Rock (7)
11. Bob Backlund (19)
12. Andre The Giant (18)
13. Brock Lesnar (16)
14. Pedro Morales (67)
15. Ultimate Warrior (38)
16. Chris Jericho (10)
17. Mick Foley (11) 
18. Roddy Piper (12)
19. Edge (24)
20. Kurt Angle (14)
21. CM Punk (15)
22. Daniel Bryan (17)
23. Ric Flair (23)
24. Chris Benoit (48)
25. Eddie Guerrero (13)
26. Superstar Billy Graham (54)
27. Ted Dibiase (26)
28. Mr. Perfect (25)
29. Jake Roberts (27)
30. Randy Orton (37)
31. Batista (31)
32. Rey Mysterio (21)
33. Owen Hart (22)
34. JBL (59)
35. Diesel (60)
36. Kane (63)
37. Razor Ramon (39)
38. Sgt. Slaughter (33)
39. British Bulldog Davey Boy Smith (41)
40. Roman Reigns (40)
41. Big Show (43)
42. Tito Santana (28)
43. Greg Valentine (30)
44. Rick Rude (42)
45. Mr. Wonderful Paul Orndorff (46)
46. Don Muraco (80)
47. Jeff Hardy (32)
48. Kid/XPac (51)
49. Goldust (36)
50. Yokozuna (61)

51. Sid (83)
52. Ricky Steamboat (29)
53. Vince McMahon (49)
54. Christian (34)
55. Booker T (50)
56. Rob Van Dam (56)
57. Matt Hardy (44)
58. Billy Gunn (115)
59. Jimmy Snuka (70)
60. Pat Patterson (62)
61. Big Bossman (52)
62. Iron Sheik (65)
63. Miz (45)
64. Sheamus (53)
65. Seth Rollins (64)
66. Rick Martel (56)
67. Jeff Jarrett (116)
68. Honkytonk Man (78)
69. Earthquake (79)
70. Trish Stratus (66)
71. AJ Styles (35)
72. Jacques Rougeau (117)
73. Shane McMahon (113)
74. Chyna (112)
75. Ken Patera (76)
76. Dolph Ziggler (81)
77. Dean Ambrose (73)
78. Kevin Owens (69)
79. Charlotte (68)
80. Sasha Banks (75)
81. Demolition Ax/Masked Superstar (91)
82. Shelton Benjamin (110)
83. John Morrison (114)
84. Kofi Kingston (87)
85. Cesaro (58)
86. Ron Simmons (144)
87. Lex Luger (153)
88. Ken Shamrock (120)
89. IRS (137)
90. Marty Jannetty (77)
91. Jerry Lawler (74)
92. Godfather/Papa Shango (198)
93. Lita (92)
94. Mr. Fuji (136)
95. Mark Henry (57)
96. Bam Bam Bigelow (85)
97. Demolition Smash/Repo Man (131)
98. Quebecer Pierre/Jean Pierre Lafitte (253)
99. Vader (109)
100. Ludvig Borga (-)

Top 3 is self-explanatory. I went with Bruno over Austin for longevity reasons.

Cena could have landed anywhere from 4-11. I tried to be as objective as possible so I held my nose and put him over HHH & Bret at #6.

Jericho is the only wrestler to crack the overall Top 10 who failed to make my own Top 10. No big surprise there since I always seem to rate Jericho a little lower than everybody else. Still, I don't think #16 is anything to sneeze at.

Apparently I love the Ultimate Warrior now? Well, that was unexpected.

I had Pedro Morales & Billy Graham crazy high compared to the overall list. I guess 70s WWWF World Champs & Ultimate Warrior are my new things....

Along with murderers since I also had Snuka and especially Benoit much higher than the official list.

JBL is the anti-Jericho in that I always seem to rate him higher than everybody else does. No regrets!

Kane, Diesel, Sid & Magnificent Muraco were robbed.

Ludvig Borga was the only wrestler on my ballot not to receive a vote. Shame on those folks.

Don't think I was the high voter for anybody else.

I held my nose again and threw Mark Henry in near the bottom for longevity reasons + 1 World Championship....

Mainly because I couldn't decide between the trio of old timers (Gorilla Monsoon, Chief Jay Strongbow & Ivan Putski) initially vying for a spot near the bottom of my ballot.

Bayley, Val Venis and Bubba Ray Dudley were other late cuts. All were actually on my ballot at one time or another.

Alberto Del Rio, Bray Wyatt, Road Dogg, both Road Warriors, Anvil, D-Von Dudley and Cody Rhodes were also under consideration in that order.

Mr. Fuji was the Billy Gunn of his era when it came to picking up tag team gold.

Jacques & JJ got the shaft....as usual. 

Biggest Increase from the overall list to my ballot

Ludvig Borga- Not rated to #100
+155 Pierre
+106 Godfather
+66 Lex Luger
+58 Ron Simmons
+57 Billy Gunn
+53 Pedro Morales
+49 Jeff Jarrett
+48 IRS
+45 Jacques Rougeau
+42 Mr. Fuji
+40 Shane McMahon
+38 Chyna
+34 Don Muraco
+34 Demolition Smash
+32 Sid
+32 Ken Shamrock
+31 John Morrison
+28 Superstar Graham
+28 Shelton Benjamin
+27 Kane
+25 JBL
+25 Diesel
+24 Chris Benoit
+23 Ultimate Warrior

Biggest Decrease among wrestlers who made my ballot

-38 Mark Henry
-36 AJ Styles- I had trouble ranking modern wrestlers since, y'know, I haven't actually watched wrestling even semi-regularly in close to a decade. So I was pleasantly surprised at how on point I was with The Shield, Dolph, Kofi, Owens, Sasha, and a few others. But I missed the mark big time on AJ. Still think #35 for Styles seems way too high given his relatively short career with the company. 
-27 Cesaro- Has yet to win a world title in an era when it's really not that hard to do so. Threw him in at the bottom of a midcard workrate group.
-23 Ricky Steamboat- Memorable matches/feud with Savage but loses points for lack of longevity.
-20 Christian- I like Christian but he's above way too many wrestlers he has no business being ranked over.

Off The List

*These wrestlers made the overall Top 100 while failing to find a spot on my own ballot

47. William Regal
71. Adrian Adonis
72. Bobby Heenan
82. Dynamite Kid
84. Bob Orton
86. Ivan Koloff
88. Dusty Rhodes
89. Terry Funk
90. Finlay
93. Hacksaw Jim Duggan
94. Gorilla Monsoon
95. Larry Zbyszko
96. Sami Zayn
97. Haku
98. Rikishi
99. Bayley
100. Asuka

*I barely considered most of these people and a few I forgot about entirely (not that it would have mattered in most cases). Funk & Larry Legend are italicized to prove how totally unbiased I am   I'm never going to complain about Terry Funk getting votes for stuff but I honestly don't really see much of a case for him here. Zbyszko has a far stronger argument imo. I probably should have included him just for the famous Bruno feud.

I'll finish doing the math at some point but at first glance any changes would have been minimal even if I had voted. It's not like I would have boosted Double J into the Top 100, HHH into the Top 20, or anything eventful like that. Even the placements of that scrub Regal and that damn Mark Henry would have been effected little, if at all.

Thoughts?

Zbyszko definitely has a better case than Funk just based on the feud w/ Sammartino which drew a lot of money. I know Funk wrestled for WWE in the ‘70s and 80’s then the late ‘90s, mostly in a tag team capacity, even headlining MSG w/ his father against the Fabulous Kangaroos.

I've stayed away from this list (if you don't have anything nice to say...) and seeing Piper and Andre outside the top 10 has proved to be a prudent decision.

I thought the justification for Regal was solid. He may not have had many main event angles, but the stuff he was involved in was usually better than it could have been (Eugene?) and his work-rate, particularly later on in his career was great. You could easily make an argument he was a better promo than wrestler in the WWE, which is saying something given how strong he was in the ring.

I don't mind the argument against HHH. Sure, his longevity gives him a nice resume, but he has to leave a lot of shit off of it. I don't think he really became a great promo until he became an Authority Figure and the complaints about the long boring 20 minute promos weren't wrong.

The top ten will be interesting. I presume HBK, Bret, Austin, Rock, Cena, Hogan, Savage, Bruno & Taker haven't appeared yet.

The list so far.

11. Mick Foley
12. Roddy Piper
13. Eddie Guerrero
14. Kurt Angle
15. CM Punk
16. Brock Lesnar
17. Daniel Bryan
18. Andre the Giant
19. Bob Backlund
20. Rey Mysterio
21. Triple H
22. Owen Hart
23. Ric Flair
24. Edge
25. Mr. Perfect
26. Ted Dibiase
27. Jake Roberts
28. Tito Santana
29. Ricky Steamboat
30. Greg Valentine
31. Batista
32. Jeff Hardy
33. Sgt. Slaughter
34. Christian
35. AJ Styles
36. Goldust
37. Randy Orton
38. Ultimate Warrior
39. Scott Hall
40. Roman Reigns
41. Davey Boy Smith
42. Rick Rude
43. Big Show
44. Matt Hardy
45. The Miz
46. Paul Orndorff
47. William Regal
48. Chris Benoit
49. Mr. McMahon
50. Booker T
51. Sean Waltmen
52. Big Boss Man
53. Sheamus
54. Billy Graham
55. Rob Van Dam
56. Rick Martel
57. Mark Henry
58. Cesaro
59. John Bradshaw Layfield
60. Kevin Nash
61. Yokozuna
62. Pat Patterson
63. Kane
64. Seth Rollins
65. Iron Sheik
66. Trish Stratus
67. Pedro Morales
68. Charlotte Flair
69. Kevin Owens
70. Jimmy Snuka
71. Adrian Adonis
72. Bobby Heenan
73. Dean Ambrose
74. Jerry Lawler
75. Sasha Banks
76. Ken Patera
77. Marty Jannetty
78. Honky Tonk Man
79. Earthquake
80. Don Muraco
81. Dolph Ziggler
82. Dynamite Kid
83. Sid
84. Bob Orton Jr
85. Bam Bam Bigelow
86. Ivan Koloff
87. Kofi Kingston
88. Dusty Rhodes
89. Terry Funk
90. Finlay
91. Bill Eadie
92. Lita
93. Jim Duggan
94. Gorilla Monsoon
95. Larry Zbyszko
96. Sami Zayn
97. Haku
98. Rikishi
99. Bayley
100. Asuka

Bake, it's time to put your mind at ease with this gem of an evaluation.

Lanny leapt into our hearts to captivate us all,
His opponents looked like champions, when Lanny took the fall.

One of the first I remember that could do a sault of moon,
A dazzling aerial maneuver that would make the ladies swoon.

And when comparing records, it’s true that losses were the bulk,
But the Main Event of Saturday Night saw victory o’er the Hulk.

His frisbee flippin’ poetry seldom could be beat,
But perhaps his greatest talent was getting Perfect heat.

The Genius of Leapin’ Lanny made him beloved like no other,
Except perhaps his somewhat more Macho and famous brother.

The top ten will be interesting. I presume HBK, Bret, Austin, Rock, Cena, Hogan, Savage, Bruno & Taker haven't appeared yet.

Jericho makes 10.

Bake, who would you push aside for Billy Gunn?

Mar 7, 2018 12:45:25 GMT Big Pete said:

The top ten will be interesting. I presume HBK, Bret, Austin, Rock, Cena, Hogan, Savage, Bruno & Taker haven't appeared yet.

Jericho makes 10.

Bake, who would you push aside for Billy Gunn?

Working from the bottom up, Asuka... Bayley... Sami Zayn...

Mar 7, 2018 5:42:15 GMT Big Pete said:

Bake, it's time to put your mind at ease with this gem of an evaluation.

Lanny leapt into our hearts to captivate us all,
His opponents looked like champions, when Lanny took the fall.

One of the first I remember that could do a sault of moon,
A dazzling aerial maneuver that would make the ladies swoon.

And when comparing records, it’s true that losses were the bulk,
But the Main Event of Saturday Night saw victory o’er the Hulk.

His frisbee flippin’ poetry seldom could be beat,
But perhaps his greatest talent was getting Perfect heat.

The Genius of Leapin’ Lanny made him beloved like no other,
Except perhaps his somewhat more Macho and famous brother.

Jericho makes 10.



Bake, who would you push aside for Billy Gunn?

There were several quality write ups. The one on The Genius was best of all.

Sid's was also a fun read. 🤯 has nothing on those writers when it comes to Sid fandom. The sad thing is I only remember like 10% of the Sid stuff they were gushing on about. 

I also got a kick out of some guy getting a sick burn in on Buddy Rogers.

Since I still haven't figured out how to multi-quote....

Jericho is the only wrestler in the overall Top 10 who failed to make my own Top 10. So he's clearly the odd man out when it comes to making room for Billy Gunn. Look, I like Jericho. I've been a Jericho fan since 2002. Perhaps a little late to the party but I eventually came around. It's just that he's no Billy Gunn. Remember that awesome run Jericho had in 2008-09? That's just another Monday night for "The One." Sorry Chris but he's got it all.

Shootist wrote "I've stayed away from this list (if you don't have anything nice to say...) and seeing Piper and Andre outside the top 10 has proved to be a prudent decision."



I get that. I had to calm down and take deep breaths when I saw HHH inexplicably, unforgivably, and downright tragically land at #21. But what would your top ten look like? Who would you bump out? I had Andre at #12- a little higher than his overall finish, and Piper a little lower at #18. So I obviously didn't get all bent out of shape about their placements. I mean it's not like they got HHH'ed or anything.

Mar 7, 2018 19:54:11 GMT Baker said:

Sid's was also a fun read. 🤯 has nothing on those writers when it comes to Sid fandom. The sad thing is I only remember like 10% of the Sid stuff they were gushing on about. 

I feel like the gauntlet has been thrown down. First step, let's read what these guys have to say about Sid. Next step, let's see how I can up my Sid Love game. Step Three, become the Master & Ruler of the World.

Mar 7, 2018 22:37:51 GMT 🤯 said:

Mar 7, 2018 19:54:11 GMT Baker said:

Sid's was also a fun read. 🤯 has nothing on those writers when it comes to Sid fandom. The sad thing is I only remember like 10% of the Sid stuff they were gushing on about. 

I feel like the gauntlet has been thrown down. First step, let's read what these guys have to say about Sid. Next step, let's see how I can up my Sid Love game. Step Three, become the Master & Ruler of the World.

Good point so far about the not remembering stuff...

I don't remember anything that "involved rearranging Brutus Beefcake’s face". Although "Suicide Machine" would've been a fucking amazing alternative nickname for Sid.

Don't remember that he "Made an amazing comeback in 1996 by barreling his Crown Vic into a bunch of crates"... but my memory is admittedly plenty fuzzy about the things I love, and this time period of 1996 WWF wasn't a time period that I ever particularly loved... so...

Don't remember that he "Murdered Davey Boy Smith at SummerSlam 1996"... was it with a pair of scissors? I thought DBS didn't die until years later? -_-

Fuck, I don't remember this: "He crumples his papers (acceptance speech) at the post Royal Rumble press conference, he screams at legit reporters" but it sounds so fucking awesome.

"Sid goes and pulls out a knife at WrestleMania XI." What? Do I have dementia? How am I not remembering some of these awesome Sid moments? Or at these people involved with this countdown just making shit up to see who's paying attention?

"The montage of him murdering guys in the buildup to Mania VIII"... I need to find this. Part of me wants to chalk up things missed in the earlier 90s to me being too young to pay much attention to finer details, lacking cable TV, etc.

This comment made me chuckle: "His loud-soft dynamics during promos would make Nirvana jealous." Ultimately, "Sid was a beautiful disaster" is probably the perfect description/encapsulation of the Vicious One.

On the overall... I'll concede that you're right, Baker-man. These peeps clearly seem to be bigger fans, at least based on their memory recall if nothing else. They've hinted at some Sid shit that sounds so unbelievably dope that I sense a journey through the rabbit hole coming up in my near future.

ALL HAIL SID!

Billy Gunn was the Jannetty of the most overrated tag team of all-time. Once Foley stopped taking death defying bumps for them, the New Age Outlaws struggled to gain any traction and were apart of that 'Tickle Me Elmo' sub-genre of Attitude wrestlers. Push the doll here so it will say the thing - 'it's me, it's me, it's the spelling bee'. Everybody knows the WWF tag team scene was the low-point of any show. Headbangers? Southern Justice? DOA? The New Midnight Express? How bored would you have to be to sit through that junk?

Anytime they tried to push him as a singles, it never worked and it wasn't long until he was standing on the apron once again.

The only argument for Billy is longevity, but I didn't think we were handing out points for taking those bear-skin rug pics?

Zayn, Bayley & Asuka were key figures in one of the greatest tv shows the WWE has ever put together. They all helped in NXT's growth and in the case of the women, helped promote an entire division that had been an eyesore for many years. While Sami has transitioned from a main eventer to a mechanic, he's been having some of the best TV matches and his work with Owens at Battleground 2016 is better than anything Mr. Ass was ever able to come up with.

What's their criteria? Drawing dimes? Workrate? Some combination of the two? Kayfabe accomplishments? Their list is all over the place.

NJPW

Nuance (Longevity, Variance, Intangibles etc.)
Jump Up Moments (Memorable Moments/Angles)
Promos
Workrate

Mar 8, 2018 4:01:37 GMT Big Pete said:

Billy Gunn was the Jannetty of the most overrated tag team of all-time. Once Foley stopped taking death defying bumps for them, the New Age Outlaws struggled to gain any traction and were apart of that 'Tickle Me Elmo' sub-genre of Attitude wrestlers. Push the doll here so it will say the thing - 'it's me, it's me, it's the spelling bee'. Everybody knows the WWF tag team scene was the low-point of any show. Headbangers? Southern Justice? DOA? The New Midnight Express? How bored would you have to be to sit through that junk?

Anytime they tried to push him as a singles, it never worked and it wasn't long until he was standing on the apron once again.

The only argument for Billy is longevity, but I didn't think we were handing out points for taking those bear-skin rug pics?

Zayn, Bayley & Asuka were key figures in one of the greatest tv shows the WWE has ever put together. They all helped in NXT's growth and in the case of the women, helped promote an entire division that had been an eyesore for many years. While Sami has transitioned from a main eventer to a mechanic, he's been having some of the best TV matches and his work with Owens at Battleground 2016 is better than anything Mr. Ass was ever able to come up with.

Challenge accepted.

Nuance- Billy Gunn spent 11 glorious years in WWE. WWF's most successful period, and the one they are forever romanticizing, was unsurprisingly during Billy Gunn's strongest push in the late 90s-early 2000s. Coincidence? I think not. A more accurate name for the Attitude Era would be The Billy Gunn Era. Pete brought up NXT. Well, NXT is a niche subset of an increasingly niche product. It doesn't draw eyeballs like The Billy Gunn Era did. Billy is also the greatest tag team specialist in company history. He was a part of not one, not two, but three wildly successful tag teams. The New Age Outlaws are the most over tag team in company history. They excelled both as heels and faces. DX is the most popular stable in company history. Their popularity didn't really take off until Billy joined the group. The WWF tag division was at its nadir in 95-96. Thankfully the Smoking Gunns rode out of Texas to singlehandedly prevent it from getting the 1998 WCW treatment. Showed more nuance with his wonderful portrayal of wildly different characters (Cowboy, Rockabilly, Outlaw, The One, Ambiguously Gay Guy). I don't think it's a stretch to call Billy Gunn the Robert DeNiro of wrestling. In fact it would be more accurate to call DeNiro the Billy Gunn of acting. Came back a nearly a decade after leaving. Hadn't missed a step. Won the tag titles. Allowed Goldust to keep his job. Tried making Cody Rhodes a star but not even Billy Gunn could pull that off. Rebounded by making The Shield stars. Reigns, Rollins & Ambrose owe their entire careers to The One. 10/10.

Jump Up Moments- The Smoking Gunns won the inaugural Raw Bowl. No true wrestling fan will ever forget that. Nor will they ever forget the New Age Outlaws attempting dumpster-related murder on the Hardcore Legends. Same goes for the Dumpster and Raw cage matches that followed. But they would have already forgotten that hack Foley and that geezer Funk had the NAO not dragged them kicking and screaming into relevancy. LOD was the top tag team of the previous generation. They stopped being mattering once Billy Gunn's New Age Outlaws snatched the torch from them and ran with it. The Outlaws would soon far surpass anything those Demolition ripoffs ever did all while selling millions of shirts with DX in the process. Billy then took a break from reinventing tag wrestling to popularize hardcore wrestling. Then he made King of the Ring important after a series of missteps involving the Brothers Hart, Ringmaster and Hunter Hearst Helmsley. Billy generously helped create the next generation of stars like Benoit & Eddie in the early 2000s because he's a team player unlike that jerk Stone Cold who correctly assumed feuding with Billy Gunn would expose him as the B+ player that he deep down knew he always been. Billy wrapped up his GOATworthy WWE career by participating in wrestling's greatest love story (they gave each other matching headbands!) & wedding with Chuck (eat your heart out Randy & Elizabeth) that kicked off the epic Raw vs. Smackdown feud which soon made most wrestling fans forget all about those overrated Monday Night Wars. 10/10.

Promos- You like Lanny Poffo. I like Lanny Poffo. We all like Lanny Poffo. He had a genius command of the English language. But Lanny Poffo is no Billy Gunn when it comes to the pure poetry of "If you're not down with that I've got two words for you.....SUCK IT!" You want to talk about nuance, well there ya go. Billy Gunn is basically Shakespeare in neon tights. 10/10.

Workrate- JR said it best when he called Billy Gunn "the greatest pure athlete in WWF history" over and over again. Billy had the perfect combination of speed and power. Who else could do press slams and get Jordan-like hang time on Stinger Splashes? Nobody. That's who. If Billy Gunn ever had a bad match I have yet to see it. Where he really excelled was as an innovator. Popularized the Jackhammer, the aforementioned so-called "Stinger" Splash, and Famouser (sometimes called a "Rocker Dropper" by weirdos). His Gunnslinger was all rage after inventing it around 2003. Brought the piledriver back into style during the late 90s. Was doing reverse 3Ds with Bart Gunn long before Bubba & D-Von ever laced up a pair of boots. Some of his stuff like the Smoking Gunns Sidewinder and that hip toss into a DDT he used to do was so ahead of its time that it STILL hasn't been duplicated. 10/10.

It's not related to the topic at hand but Billy Gunn also carried TNA to its most successful period after leaving WWF and even in his 50s led New Japan's American invasion where Billy Gunn's magic touch struck again as the promotion is more popular in Japan than it had been in over a decade and more popular in the US than it had ever been. All this solidifies Billy Gunn as not just the WWE GOAT but the greatest of all time throughout the wider world of wrestling.

Welp, I didn't think it was possible but Bake has shown me the path and opened up my eyes...

I didn't think it was remotely possible, but somehow, I hate Billy Gunn even more than I thought I did. :lol:

In all seriousness I'm not really that big of a Billy Gunn fan. This isn't a Jarrett, Jacques, Pierre, Borga, Zbyszko type situation. I just think Billy is underappreciated by fans/WWE lore.

I never gave a crap about the Smoking Gunns. Always thought they were boring. Rockabilly was awful and a colossal disappointment since I was expecting one of my WCW guys, the Disco Inferno, to be revealed as HTM's protege. That would have drawn all the Baker dimes. I despised the New Age Outlaws and DX. Like I'm talking Hogan, Warrior, Duggan, 95-98 HBK levels of loathing here. Couldn't stand 'em. I hated Billy winning KOTR. I'm fairly certain I was more receptive to Mabel's KOTR victory. Wasn't into Gunn's big '99 singles push at all and I was glad when it flopped because Billy as an upper card singles wrestler would have been torture.

But I did come around on Billy a tiny bit not long after his return from injury in late 2000. Like after all these years I suddenly found him kinda sorta tolerable. And I (half-ironically) liked him even more when he became "The One" and started using that "One and Only" sleeper slam finisher which I hyped up huge to my friends using some goofy physics argument I came up with on the spot. Also gained an appreciation for his use of amazing entrance music. All of his post-NAO themes are just so pro wrestling. I genuinely did love Billy & Chuck. Thought they were a hoot. Definitely one of my favorite acts in all of wrestling during 2002 and easily my favorite part of Billy's career. Always rooted for him after that in a 6/10 sort of way. Thought he caught too much flack from internet fans.

As for a sincere GWWE argument....He really was a part of three successful teams, including what I consider the most over tag team in WWF history. The Outlaws really were a major part of Degeneration X during the peak of DX's popularity. I genuinely do see him as WWF's historical tag specialist a la Arn & Eaton, though he's obviously not nearly as good as those guys. And 11 years of longevity (plus a few brief returns) is a big feather in his cap.

*All those wrestlers in WWE history and here I am spending all evening discussing Billy Gunn 

Mar 7, 2018 19:54:11 GMT Baker said:

Mar 7, 2018 5:42:15 GMT Big Pete said:

Shootist wrote "I've stayed away from this list (if you don't have anything nice to say...) and seeing Piper and Andre outside the top 10 has proved to be a prudent decision."



I get that. I had to calm down and take deep breaths when I saw HHH inexplicably, unforgivably, and downright tragically land at #21. But what would your top ten look like? Who would you bump out? I had Andre at #12- a little higher than his overall finish, and Piper a little lower at #18. So I obviously didn't get all bent out of shape about their placements. I mean it's not like they got HHH'ed or anything.

With greatest lists now I really emphasize how big of a name you were and downplay workrate, kayfabe success etc. Andre The Giant was/is one of the most famous people in the world who transcends the wrestling business. I'm really surprised at how ignorant people are of how a big of a star he was in his prime, he should be no less than top 5 on any greatest WWE or wrestler list in general. He was nearly as big of factor as Hogan on the WWF's two most successful shows in Wrestlemania 3 and the Main Event which drew 33 million people. 

Piper was an essential catalyst to get the Wrestlemania concept over with his attack on Cyndi Lauper and being Hogan's prime rival during that formative Hulkamania run of 84/85. Plus how he has translated over into mainstream culture far eclipses anything that any early 00's/PG era "star" could ever dream of. This maybe controversial but with the exception of maybe Brock Lesnar no Ruthless Aggression/PG era "star" would place ahead of the vast majority of stars of the 80's and late 90's on my list.

My top 10 would look something like this.

1. Hulk Hogan
2. Steve Austin
3. Andre The Giant
4. Bruno Sammartino
5. The Rock
6. Randy Savage
7. The Undertaker
8. Roddy Piper
9. Bret Hart
10. Shawn Michaels

I still don't feel comfortable even placing Bret and Shawn in my top 10 since they were kings of the down years. At least Bret created a spark with his heel turn and the USA vs. Canada feud. Names like Superstar Graham, Jake Roberts, Mick Foley, Jimmy Snuka, Brock Lesnar, Paul Orndorff and Sgt. Slaughter would be on the upper tier of my list as well.

Hell, throw in Ultimate Warrior for good measure.

I'm glad they didn't skew the list so the Attitude Era & Rock n Roll wrestlers would get the inside running. 'Why is Star Wars the best movie of 2017?' 'Because it drew a ton of money'. Fuck that noise, any bean counter can work that out for themselves, what I'm interested in is what a bunch of wrestling nerds think of the all-time greatest roster and where everybody fits in the grand scheme of things. In their view, Andre doesn't have the matches or the promos to compete with 17 other wrestlers. Based on what I've seen they're not wrong and a lot of the Andre matches that I've enjoyed happened in other promotions.

Mar 8, 2018 8:35:03 GMT Big Pete said:

I'm glad they didn't skew the list so the Attitude Era & Rock n Roll wrestlers would get the inside running. 'Why is Star Wars the best movie of 2017?' 'Because it drew a ton of money'. Fuck that noise, any bean counter can work that out for themselves, what I'm interested in is what a bunch of wrestling nerds think of the all-time greatest roster and where everybody fits in the grand scheme of things. In their view, Andre doesn't have the matches or the promos to compete with 17 other wrestlers. Based on what I've seen they're not wrong and a lot of the Andre matches that I've enjoyed happened in other promotions.

Sorry to be a downer but the "grand scheme of things" at least to me comes down to pure star power once again. Can you honestly say Daniel Bryan was a bigger star than Andre The Giant? I will agree though that doing a "all time best roster" list is more interesting and far more subjective.  

Don't mind me, I'm just the old fart now that finds determining who was better at the minutiae of the business far more difficult and narrow in scope than just assessing who the biggest names were.

Well as much as I'd love to dissect the inner workings of the booking room or who gave Vince their 'bear skin' rug pictures, it's a lot more difficult than being able to judge what we all saw on TV. I mean sometimes it's just a time and place thing. Would the Nation of Domination parody fly these days? Would people still be into Sable showing off her tits? There's too many variables outside of a wrestler's control into what makes a star. I'd even argue the Attitude Era boom didn't even start in the WWE, but over on Turner. Without WCW pushing the envelope, the roster would still be filled with pig farmers, evil dentists and roman gladiators.

Bryan is an odd case because his run only lasted 6 years. However, everything he was apart of was excellent, while Andre was remembered for when he was in the twilight of his career and clearly was struggling to go in the ring. There's certainly points that could be argued here. 9/9/5/5 on the NJPW scale for Andre versus a 5/7/7/10 for Bryan. That's an even keel, but for those who enjoy in-ring wrestling, a guy like Bryan is going to win out.

I got a lot to catch up on just in this thread, but I feel like I missed something... Are they seriously evaluating greatest WWE wrestlers by NJPW criteria!? Is this whole thing just tongue in cheek?

Mar 8, 2018 13:19:17 GMT 🤯 said:

I got a lot to catch up on just in this thread, but I feel like I missed something... Are they seriously evaluating greatest WWE wrestlers by NJPW criteria!? Is this whole thing just tongue in cheek?

NJPW doesn't mean what you probably think it does. As Pete explained earlier it stands for....

Nuance (Longevity, Variance, Intangibles etc.)
Jump Up Moments (Memorable Moments/Angles)
Promos
Workrate

I'm sure whoever came up with that acronym thought it awfully clever and I imagine they gave themselves the old Barry Horowitz pat on the back.

I'm off today and may have nothing better to do so there's a 50/50 shot I start evaluating every wrestler in the Top 100 plus maybe some specially selected others. I'll start with a serious look at the 58th greatest wrestler in WWF history, "The One" Billy Gunn.

N: 9- Scores high in longevity. Played several different characters as a face and heel. In the running for most successful tag wrestler in WWE history.
J: 7- The dumpster and wedding angles are memorable. Won the Raw Bowl which I have a soft spot for as a concept. Was part of some famous DX moments like the WCW Invasion and Nation parody. Punked out LOD.
P: 2- I had him as a 1 for a minute but upgraded him because he was able to get people to sing along with his (stupid) catchphrase. But, yeah, Billy was ass on the mic (pun intended) with an annoying voice and poor delivery. 
W: 4- He had all the tools on paper but never put it together for a great match. Even good Billy Gunn matches are few and far between with approximately 100% of them being tag matches. Billy was competent in the ring but nothing more. 

Mar 8, 2018 11:23:02 GMT Big Pete said:

Would people still be into Sable showing off her tits?

Yes. Duh?

Who isn't into titties being shown off?

Billy was a serviceable worker who moved well and could cover all the bases. Going through my 1999 project, I was surprised at how often he featured in the best match of the show.

Here's a list I put together

Billy Gunn vs Hardcore Holly – Raw is War 3/15/99
Billy Gunn vs. The Rock - Raw is War 3/29/99
New Age Outlaws vs. The Brood (Edge & Gangrel) - Raw is War 4/5/99
New Age Outlaws vs. Jeff Jarrett & Owen Hart - Backlash 1999
Billy Gunn vs. Triple H - Raw Is War 4/26/99
The New Age Outlaws vs. X-Pac & Kane - SmackDown 4/29/99
Billy Gunn vs. X-Pac - Raw Is War 5/4/99
Billy Gunn vs. Mankind - No Mercy (UK)
Billy Gunn & Triple H & Chyna vs. The Rock & Road Dogg & X-Pac - Raw Is War 7/12/99
Billy Gunn vs. The Rock - SummerSlam 1999
Billy Gunn vs. Triple H - Raw Is War 9/6/99
New Age Outlaws vs. Rock n Sock Connection - SmackDown 9/23/99
New Age Outlaws vs. Rock n Sock Connection - SmackDown 10/14/99
D-Generation X vs. Steve Austin & The Rock & Test & Shane McMahon - SmackDown 11/11/99
New Age Outlaws & X-Pac vs. The Hardy Boys & The Big Show - SmackDown 12/2/99

Not a bad collection and I'm sure he worked the crowd well in all those bouts.

The problem with Billy is that he had a break-out moment set up for him. It was at the 1999 Royal Rumble where he was supposed to beat Ken Shamrock and become the breakout star of DX. Instead he showed up late to the building in poor condition, so they buried him in a really average match. It took him and the Intercontinental Championship a long time to recover.

I wouldn't mind checking out his efforts against HBK circa 95, Benoit circa 2000 and Tanahashi circa 2017. That last match just about gave Dave an aneurysm.

Mar 8, 2018 13:59:38 GMT 🤯 said:

Mar 8, 2018 11:23:02 GMT Big Pete said:

Would people still be into Sable showing off her tits?

Yes. Duh?

Who isn't into titties being shown off?

I missed the operative combination of words 'as into'.

In 1998, we weren't as spoiled for choice. Now with HBO and all sorts of outlets, it's difficult to get them to keep their tops on.

Mar 8, 2018 14:16:36 GMT Big Pete said:

Billy was a serviceable worker who moved well and could cover all the bases. Going through my 1999 project, I was surprised at how often he featured in the best match of the show.

Here's a list I put together

Billy Gunn vs Hardcore Holly – Raw is War 3/15/99
Billy Gunn vs. The Rock - Raw is War 3/29/99
New Age Outlaws vs. The Brood (Edge & Gangrel) - Raw is War 4/5/99
New Age Outlaws vs. Jeff Jarrett & Owen Hart - Backlash 1999
Billy Gunn vs. Triple H - Raw Is War 4/26/99
The New Age Outlaws vs. X-Pac & Kane - SmackDown 4/29/99
Billy Gunn vs. X-Pac - Raw Is War 5/4/99
Billy Gunn vs. Mankind - No Mercy (UK)
Billy Gunn & Triple H & Chyna vs. The Rock & Road Dogg & X-Pac - Raw Is War 7/12/99
Billy Gunn vs. The Rock - SummerSlam 1999
Billy Gunn vs. Triple H - Raw Is War 9/6/99
New Age Outlaws vs. Rock n Sock Connection - SmackDown 9/23/99
New Age Outlaws vs. Rock n Sock Connection - SmackDown 10/14/99
D-Generation X vs. Steve Austin & The Rock & Test & Shane McMahon - SmackDown 11/11/99
New Age Outlaws & X-Pac vs. The Hardy Boys & The Big Show - SmackDown 12/2/99

Not a bad collection and I'm sure he worked the crowd well in all those bouts.

The problem with Billy is that he had a break-out moment set up for him. It was at the 1999 Royal Rumble where he was supposed to beat Ken Shamrock and become the breakout star of DX. Instead he showed up late to the building in poor condition, so they buried him in a really average match. It took him and the Intercontinental Championship a long time to recover.

I wouldn't mind checking out his efforts against HBK circa 95, Benoit circa 2000 and Tanahashi circa 2017. That last match just about gave Dave an aneurysm.

The Holly match is the one I remember from that batch. Twas a good hardcore train wreck style match with some cool bumps like Holly going through heel JR's special announce table. Best Billy Gunn singles match I can think of off the top of my head.

I think the HBK match happened in June or July '96, not '95. Unless there's one I'm forgetting? If not, it's one of the few 1996 HBK matches I have no memory of other than it happened.

But the Benoit PPV match is actually pretty notorious. That's where the internet's Billy Gunn hate really kicked in. Now he was never particularly popular online but this is where it (perhaps justifiably) was ratcheted up due Benoit's rough landing on a poorly executed press slam. Even years later I remember it being brought up on some forum or another as "Benoit's only bad WWE match." (which is simply not true. At minimum there were also the O'Haire and Hassan stinkers.)

I was actually going to watch the Tanahashi match late last night. Your post got me to go through with it. Review incoming!

96 it is.

A 14 minute showcase against the champ, surely it must have something going for it? Do you have any memories of Shawn's match against Jannetty? Does it live up to their earlier efforts? I really need to get back on the 96 kick, that was a fun set of shows...Billionare Ted skits, Raw Bowls, Steve Austin kicking Money Matt's ass. The hype for Doug Gilbert being apart of the Royal Rumble...to be a WWF fan during the New Generation era.

Your memory of the Holly match is better than mine, but it had to be good considering how down I was on Gunn early on. The match that sticks out to me is his main event effort against Triple H. A pretty strong babyface performance from Gunn and JR was money on commentary.

Mar 8, 2018 16:20:18 GMT Big Pete said:

Do you have any memories of Shawn's match against Jannetty? Does it live up to their earlier efforts? I really need to get back on the 96 kick, that was a fun set of shows...Billionare Ted skits, Raw Bowls, Steve Austin kicking Money Matt's ass. The hype for Doug Gilbert being apart of the Royal Rumble...to be a WWF fan during the New Generation era.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not with most of this  :lol:

Oh yeah. I remember Shawn/Marty from '96. Liked it a lot at the time. The thing about 95-96 is I was just smart enough to be stupid so I was forever tricking myself into thinking the impossible (mainly Shawn losing) was going to happen. That sort of thing very rarely occurred before or after this era. I'd get super invested in all these throwaway Shawn tv matches. This one had a little bit of hype on the preceding weekend's Superstars or Action Zone. I forget the details but either Marty cut a promo, it was announced Cornette would be in Marty's corner, or JR went over Shawn & Marty's long history together. Maybe all of the above? And after all this I suddenly convinced myself Marty was going to upset Shawn and the Battle of the Rockers would begin anew. Plus I was already a New Rockers/Marty mark in addition to being a Shawn hater so I had a great rooting interest in this one. Marty had Cornette AND Leif in his corner! Plus YEARS of pent up anger! Revenge would soon be his! How could he fail?!? 

As for the match itself, it was definitely a cut above your typical 1996 WWF match. Like HBK vs. JJ the previous year these two were a few steps quicker than most of their contemporaries. Plus Shawn & Marty always had great chemistry. I recall Jannetty getting a lot of offense on the champ aided by those glorious cheaters Cornette & Cassidy in his corner. I'm sure I bit on a nearfall or two before being gutted once again when that damn HBK pulled it off.

Also have fond memories of Shawn's 1996 tv matches with Snow (both as Shinobi & Leif), Sincere, Kid (this is where I grudgingly admitted Shawn was the Best In The World....even if I did hate his guts), Lawler, and Goldust. I put Goldust last because their match didn't hold up all that well when I rewatched it a few years back. But I swear the version up on Youtube at the time was edited though! 

The reason I might not remember the HBK/Billy match is because even I couldn't talk myself into thinking 1/2 of the Smoking Gunns had a shot against the champ. Plus I had always been kind of a Gunns hater and now I loathed them even more since they were with that no good jezebel Sunny. So even with the dreaded Michaels involved I didn't have much of a rooting interest in this one. It's up on Dailymotion. Maybe I'll check it out later.