Mar 8, 2018 13:59:38 GMT 🤯 said:

Mar 8, 2018 11:23:02 GMT Big Pete said:

Would people still be into Sable showing off her tits?

Yes. Duh?

Who isn't into titties being shown off?

You would be surprised with today's emasculated crowds who are into dudes twerking in front of children.

Can you tell that I haven't vented on the current product in a long time?

I think they appreciate it more than getting mooned by guys or watching a guy rub his giant fat ass in somebody's face.

Get them out of the Top 100:

Haku (97): He has none of Nuance, Jump Up Moments or Promos, doesn't even come close to any of those, and you could make the case he wasn't even much of a worker either. What the fuck? Farooq was better legit badass and #2 in a tag team. Barry Darsow was a better #2 in a better tag team. Buh Buh Ray and Devon. Billy Gunn. Hell, Harley Race was a better King.

Finlay (#90): People seem to like his workrate for some reason, but what about the NJP part of the criteria? Who had a better WWF/E career, Finlay or Jeff Jarrett? Finlay or Vader?

Too Fucking High:

Adrian Adonis (#71): Adrian Adonis was a great worker everywhere except the WWF. The only time he was a good promo was standing next to Jesse Ventura. The NJ part of the criteria, he got heat with his gimmick, and the Piper stuff was memorable, but #71?

The Iron Sheik (#65): Nuance: nope, Jump Up Moments: Two in the same year and then nothing, Promos: Nope, Workrate: Not really outside the Slaughter matches.

Kevin Owens (#69): Got hotshotted to begin with and has been sliding ever since, correct? Jimmy Snuka is right above him. Who had a better career there?

Cesaro (#58): lol.

Sheamus (#53): If kayfabe had anything to do with this, you could make a case, but what part of the NJPW criteria is he checking off. You can just forget about NJP right off the bat. He'd have to be a workrate god to warrant this ranking. Give me Bam Bam Bigelow.

William Regal (#47): Laughably high. I've come to the conclusion that Regal fans are way more annoying than Regal himself. Regal's had a really good career. His style works for a few thousand people on the internet. He's still collecting a paycheck. Regal has won. Then these fanboys put him Top 20 all time as a worker, or Top 50 as a WWF/E character. It's absurd.

Mar 9, 2018 3:01:38 GMT Kilgore said:

Haku (97): He has none of Nuance, Jump Up Moments or Promos, doesn't even come close to any of those, and you could make the case he wasn't even much of a worker either. What the fuck? Farooq was better legit badass and #2 in a tag team. Barry Darsow was a better #2 in a better tag team. Buh Buh Ray and Devon. Billy Gunn. Hell, Harley Race was a better King.

Finlay (#90): People seem to like his workrate for some reason, but what about the NJP part of the criteria? Who had a better WWF/E career, Finlay or Jeff Jarrett? Finlay or Vader?

Too Fucking High:

Adrian Adonis (#71): Adrian Adonis was a great worker everywhere except the WWF. The only time he was a good promo was standing next to Jesse Ventura. The NJ part of the criteria, he got heat with his gimmick, and the Piper stuff was memorable, but #71?

The Iron Sheik (#65): Nuance: nope, Jump Up Moments: Two in the same year and then nothing, Promos: Nope, Workrate: Not really outside the Slaughter matches.

Kevin Owens (#69): Got hotshotted to begin with and has been sliding ever since, correct? Jimmy Snuka is right above him. Who had a better career there?

Cesaro (#58): lol.

Sheamus (#53): If kayfabe had anything to do with this, you could make a case, but what part of the NJPW criteria is he checking off. You can just forget about NJP right off the bat. He'd have to be a workrate god to warrant this ranking. Give me Bam Bam Bigelow.

William Regal (#47): Laughably high. I've come to the conclusion that Regal fans are way more annoying than Regal himself. Regal's had a really good career. His style works for a few thousand people on the internet. He's still collecting a paycheck. Regal has won. Then these fanboys put him Top 20 all time as a worker, or Top 50 as a WWF/E character. It's absurd.

I want to applaud the bolded stuff. I didn't even consider any of them for my list.

Same goes for Adonis but I'm not that annoyed by him making it (though #71 seems too high) since the Piper feud really was huge and Kilgore forgot to mention his successful tag team with Dick Murdoch. I also like Adonis in the ring from the little I've seen. He's a mean bastard with some surprising athleticism for a fatty.

I think the Iron Sheik is crap aside from being a heat machine. His dumb, spastic selling and goofball strikes kind of killed the Slaughter "classic" for me. But I did have him in the 60s because his two jump up moments really were huge. Plus I included kayfabe success. Rules be damned. Sheik was a rare-for-the-era heel WWF champ and tag champ. The latter coming during a boom period. Some people like his promos and even I'll admit to chuckling for maybe one out of every ten barely intelligible Sheik rants. With that being said, the Iron Sheik still sucks.

I had Owens somewhere in the 70s because I tried very, very hard to be fair to modern (and pre-Hulkamania) workers. 

Ditto for Cesaro who I threw in at the bottom of a modern midcard workrate group (along with Morrison, Shelton, Kofi) somewhere in the 80s.

Had Sheamus in the 60s because trying hard to be fair to modern workers + kayfabe success. And maybe a bonus point for having a really good match with Wade Barrett (who?) that one time in the last 13 years when I randomly went to a Raw taping.

Damn. Now I feel like obligated to do a NJPW(K?) analysis of the Top 100 + a few others. Next time I have a lot of free time. Promise!

I feel like I should be more ashamed to admit that I'm a Regal fan...

Strangely, my favorite match of his is against Randy Orton on a RAW (in England?) in 2008. They both seemed to turn it on that night, and clicked in an entertaining (at least to me) sprint.

That said, even I wouldn't rank Regal THAT high. And certainly not higher than Suicide Machine Sid.

I agree though with Finlay and Owens having no place on this list.

Now that I'm grasping this NJPW thing better, I'm very tempted to try putting together my own list...

Judging by their write-ups, jump up moments is based on kayfabe and not necessarily the audience response. If that's the case, then Sheamus has had a run that most would be proud of. Won the championship on multiple occassions, won the King of the Ring, won the Rumble, established himself as both a singles and tag guy. Now if it was based on 'moments' Sheamus would be way down on the list. His biggest moment backfired spectacularly and he never became the star Vince wanted as a result.

I think he'd do well in terms of longevity. He's been with the company for 10 years, on the main roster for nearly 9 so he'd get a good grade there.

Promos and Wrestling are always subjective categories. Personally I'd mark him way down on the former, but pretty high on the latter. He isn't Ahmed Johnson levels of bad, but he's the prime example of being overly scripted to the point where you don't buy him or any of his feuds. If I'm being generous I'd go 4 in that department. As far as his wrestling is concerned, he's one of the better hoss guys the WWE has ever had. He's the opposite of Billy Gunn (PW's new measuring stick) where he works a lot bigger than he actually is. A lot of his stuff looks great, can transition into big spots at a drop of the hat and can call some great spots. Highlights include his ladder match with Morrison, 2/3 Falls match with Bryan and a really good match with The Big Show at the tail end of 2012. I don't think he touches somebody like Bret, Savage or Shawn but I could live with an 8.

They've got justifications on the website that are worth checking out.

I wish Haku did one of those Bam Bam Bigelow/Steve Williams cash grab MMA fights where he got destroyed. All the mystique would be gone.

Mar 9, 2018 4:12:26 GMT Big Pete said:

Judging by their write-ups, jump up moments is based on kayfabe and not necessarily the audience response. 

Just when I thought I understood what the fuck NJPW grading meant, Big Pete hits me with this.

Mar 9, 2018 3:21:01 GMT Baker said:

Damn. Now I feel like obligated to do a NJPW(K?) analysis of the Top 100 + a few others. Next time I have a lot of free time. Promise!

There's no time like the present. Let's get this show on the road. But first!

Big Pete I do like Sheamus (and Cesaro. Sorry Kilgore) as a worker. Sometimes I just forget to write things. Hence my million edits. Small sample size but I'm not sure I've ever seen a bad Sheamus match.

To settle this once and for all....

Nuance (Longevity, Variance, Intangibles)

Jump Up Moments (Memorable Moments/Angles/Kayfabe Success)

Promos

Workrate


() is my own ranking. I'm skipping some of the more modern wrestlers for now. May be back later to give them broad grades like Good, Poor, etc. as opposed to more specific number grades.

98. Rikishi (NR)

N: 7- Scores high in the longevity department. Was around on and off from 92-04. We run into our first problem right off the bat. Rikishi played a lot of characters which would normally be a plus but what if the majority of those characters sucked? Was super over as WWF's greatest dancing fatty. Had one good tag and one good singles run. Sucked as a heel in 2000. Was boring after that.

J: 5- His early years were not memorable but he did catch fire as Rikishi. Royal Rumble 2000 featured 'Kish and his Too Cool buddies having WWF's all time greatest dance party. Splashed Val Venis from high places. Was thrown off Hell In A Cell into a truck full of hay when Taker tried to make him famous. Picked up some gold over the years most famously a 4 month tag title run with the Headshrinkers.

P: 2- It's not a good sign when your most famous promo is a Wrestlecrap meme. 

W: 6- I probably didn't appreciate Fatu nearly enough at the time. Early Rikishi was actually really good in the ring. Had killer offense. Love his Smackdown match with HHH. Was also good as the big babyface house of fire in multi man tags. The Val matches were better than you'd think. Fell off the cliff as a worker after the career killing heel turn.

Thoughts- I didn't consider Rikishi but he'd likely crack my Top 150. Solid WWE career.

97. Haku (NR)

N: 4.5- Good longevity. Was a face Islander and then a heel Islander without really changing all that much. Lacked the natural sleaze and epic heel sneer of his partner Tama. Worst king in WWF history. Even Duggan had some culture clash appeal. 

J: 3- I've always found Haku to be a rather forgettable wrestler. Hence forgetting to even consider him for my ballot. He was the epitome of a guy who was just there. Did pick up tag gold with an old Andre. I do remember the Islanders heel turn, Matilda kidnapping, Harley Race match where Haku became king, and his Royal Rumble 2001 return sporting a 10/10 afro. But the rest of his WWF career is a big blur of nothingness.

P: 1- He didn't cut them.

W: 5.5- Solid but unspectacular worker. Had a great superkick and (rarely used?) piledriver.

Thoughts- There is no guarantee he'd crack my Top 200.

95. Larry Zbyszko (NR)

N: Fairly High- Better longevity than you'd think. Actually worked face far longer than he worked heel.
 
J: High- One of the most famous heel turns ever on Bruno. Picked up some championship gold teaming with Tony Garea. Drew the then-biggest house in WWF history opposite Bruno. Had a main event house show run against Backlund.

P: Probably High- One of my favorite promo guys ever. That started during the Bruno feud. The only reason he gets a "Probably" is because I'm not familiar with his early face promos and there's a very good chance they suck both due to the era and the fact that Zbyszko is one of the most natural heels to ever lace up a pair of boots.

W: Probably Average- It's a little unfair to pre-Hulkamania wrestlers but I just wasn't a huge fan of that slow-paced 70s style back when I could occasionally be bothered to watch the stuff. The big Bruno blowoff cage match is a colossal bore. However, the tv match where Zbyszko turns heel is a master class in story telling. I may even go as **** for that one.

Thoughts- I actually forgot about Zbyszko when compiling my list. There's a very good chance he could have made it had I remembered. Could even go as high as the 70s depending on my mood. The Bruno feud really was that big and he scores well on the NJPW scale.

Mar 9, 2018 4:58:17 GMT Baker said:

Big Pete I do like Sheamus (and Cesaro. Sorry Kilgore) as a worker. Sometimes I just forget to write things. Hence my million edits. Small sample size but I'm not sure I've ever seen a bad Sheamus match.

People can like Cesaro's generic boring ass all they want, that's cool. I have weird tastes too. The NJP ain't going to cut it on any level for him to be in the goddamned 50's, though. It seems like every year he's repacked as something new because the previous thing failed to excite anybody other than Kings of Wrestling fans from a decade ago. If Kayfabe counts, he's a midcarder for life in the WWE, so he doesn't have the Randy Orton, guy who mostly sucks, but has been champion 45 times going for him.  The memorable moments start and stop with a Big Show bodyslam half a decade ago. The promos are non-existent. If Cesaro got in the Top 100, that would be a giant victory for him. #58 is insanity. 

I'm loving Kilgore's seemingly out-of-left-field Haku hatred.

Not that I necessarily like or dislike Haku myself... Have always been kinda indifferent except when it comes to Faces of Fear, and how that should've been more of a legit thing in WWF... And I've always just taken his tough guy mystique at face value... But, man, I'm digging this. If we debase Haku enough, then maybe I don't feel like I've gotta keep the Colossal Connection as a thing in my old WWF revisionist history plans. That'd be a plus!

Mar 9, 2018 5:52:59 GMT Kilgore said:

Mar 9, 2018 4:58:17 GMT Baker said:

Big Pete I do like Sheamus (and Cesaro. Sorry Kilgore) as a worker. Sometimes I just forget to write things. Hence my million edits. Small sample size but I'm not sure I've ever seen a bad Sheamus match.

People can like Cesaro's generic boring ass all they want, that's cool. I have weird tastes too. The NJP ain't going to cut it on any level for him to be in the goddamned 50's, though. It seems like every year he's repacked as something new because the previous thing failed to excite anybody other than Kings of Wrestling fans from a decade ago. If Kayfabe counts, he's a midcarder for life in the WWE, so he doesn't have the Randy Orton, guy who mostly sucks, but has been champion 45 times going for him.  The memorable moments start and stop with a Big Show bodyslam half a decade ago. The promos are non-existent. If Cesaro got in the Top 100, that would be a giant victory for him. #58 is insanity. 

Cesaro will do cooler strongman spots than just about anybody from the 80s or 90s and then he'll do this....



CESARO! CESARO! CESARO!

Next Billy Gunn? Nah. Too lacking in character. 

93. Hacksaw Jim Duggan (NR)

N: LOL. One of the least nuanced wrestlers ever. His entire WWF career can be boiled down to 3 words and 3 letters. HO! USA! TOUGH GUY! In all fairness to Duggan, he does score pretty well in longevity having spent 6 years with the company plus some returns. And he was (inexplicably) popular so why change what works? We'll give him a 4 here.

J: 3- Never won a title. Was memorable despite having very few memorable moments. The only ones I can think of off the top of my head are getting squashed by Yoko and the Harley Race feud, mainly for their sports entertainmentastic brawl at the Slammys. But people do know who Hacksaw Jim Duggan is. The 2x4 and HO! are also well known.

P: 2- HO! USA! TOUGH GUY! There. I just transcribed every Jim Duggan promo ever. Not my cup of tea but I suppose it worked on some level.

W: 1- A few days ago I threatened to list 1000 wrestlers I'd rather watch than WWE Regal. WWF Duggan is not one of them. One of the most boring wrestlers I ever had the misfortune to watch. The epitome of a lazy punch-kick wrestler.

Thoughts- Hacksaw Jim Duggan made me like America less. He made me like wrestling less.. He's a lock for landing on an all time Bottom 10 least favorites list. Yet he was a memorable character with a pretty long run. Would make my Top 150 in spite of a putrid NJPW score (though it still tops what I gave him on the Bret Hart scale)

92 Lita (93)

N: 7- Around the same longevity as Duggan. Had an amazing transformation from popular punkish extreme daredevil into one of the great Jezebel's in WWE history. 

J: 7- A woman who does frankensteiners and moonsaults! That was a really big deal at the time. Won the women's title a few times. Main evented the first two Raw matches involving women. Her wedding with Kane and the Live Sex Celebration with Edge were also memorable. Women's wrestling is (or at least was?) the trendy thing nowadays and Lita is a company pioneer in that field. Could be higher than a 7, actually. But gut instincts rule the day.

P: 4- Like the rest of Team Extreme she started out as an awful promo. Got better as time went on. I vaguely remember a goodish promo on Kane at their wedding and a few good ones with Edge. 4 might be generous. I dunno.

W: 5- The anti-Finlay or Orton in that her fundamentals were awful but she had enough cool high spots to trick people into thinking she was good for the longest time. We'll give her a 5 on the WWE diva sliding scale. Had a killer DDT as well.

Thoughts- The first wrestler in the overall Top 100 to also crack my list. Her big claim to fame is being a pioneer. And a woman who does frankensteiners and moonsaults! She's still no Judy Martin though.

91. Bill Eadie (81)

N: 8- Had two runs. The Demolition run everybody knows and an early run as Masked Superstar where he feuded with Backlund for the title. So he was successful as a singles and tag wrestler in two wildly different eras. Was also over as both a face and heel in Demolition. Spent some time as a masked Machine as well. 

J: 8- One of my big talking points of late has been "the New Age Outlaws are the most over tag team in WWE history!" This is true. But Demolition is the greatest. They're two different things. Longest tag title reign in company history for nearly 30 years. Still hold the record for most cumulative days as WWF tag champs. Demolition laying waste to jobbers every week on Superstars is honestly more memorable to me than most things most wrestlers ever did. For specifics, the back to back to back massacre of Brady Boone, Ken Patera, and Billy Jack Haynes stands out. As does winning the title from Strike Force. The double turn with Powers of Pain is well known. Even his big Masked Superstar angle of breaking Eddie Gilbert's neck was something I learned about fairly early on in my 'smarkdom.' 

W: 5- Perfected the ancient and noble art of clubberin' along with Smash. But it was rather one dimensional and doesn't hold up all that well. Demolition Decapitation was a great finisher though. And maybe the Masked Superstar was good? 

P: 3- Shouty "We're gonna hurt ya!" promos aren't really my thing. Although, as with Duggan, you can't say it didn't work. I have no idea how he was on the mic as the Masked Superstar.

Thoughts- Felt like I needed to get both members of Demolition on my list for being the greatest team in company history. Remembering he had a big feud with Backlund back in the day made it even easier to find a spot for Eadie.

90. Finlay (NR)

N: 5.5- Spent 5 years as an active wrestler in the company when he was in his 40s and 50s. Got a leprechaun over. Got over surprisingly well as a face despite being a natural heel. More nuanced than you might think.

J: 3- The only truly memorable Finlay moment I can come up with off the top of my head is the Hornswoggle reveal/JBL feud. He also had a US title reign and surprisingly main evented a pay per view. OK, so it was a 4 way on a brand split pay per view. But still! And you have no idea how much it annoyed me when I thought of all the greats who never main evented a WWE PPV yet here's Fit f'n Finlay doing so I also liked how he and Flair had a low key old geezers feud. They'd always seem to find each other in multi-man's and Rumble's.

P: 2.5- His name is Finlay and he likes to fight. Rinse and repeat over and over again for years. The .5 is for a vague memory of a good promo during the Hornswoggle/JBL angle.

W: 3- Controversy! Finlay is a lot like Orton in that other workers and a certain subset of fandom are forever raving him yet I find his wrestling dreadfully dull. Nothing made me reach for the fast forward button quite like another 15 minute Finlay Smackdown match. Chinlocks. Repeated moves. Yawn. I did like how he'd stomp hands and use the apron as a weapon. And his WWF run was certainly better than his god awful 1996 WCW run. He also could have good matches when in there with true greats like Benoit & Matt Hardy. But for the most part Finlay's wrestling wasn't for me.

Thoughts- I wrote "there's no guarantee Haku would crack my top 200." Finlay's WWE career wasn't as good as Haku's. You do the math.

89. Terry Funk (NR)

N: 4- Lack of longevity kills him. Had two runs and a cup of coffee only totaling about 2 years. Is helped by getting over in multiple different roles. Duh. He's Terry Funk. He always gets over. Does lose a point for wearing pantyhose on his head. Chainsaw Charlie was idiotic.

J: 7- Packed a ton of goodness into his short runs. There was the Mel Phillips stuff. Some of Hogan's best matches. The awesome Dumpster angle/feud with Foley vs. NAO. Raw match(es) with Foley. One Night Stand 2. Funk has to have one of the highest ratios of appearances: good stuff in company history.

P: 6- He cut better promos elsewhere but Funk is always quality on the mic.

W: 7- Had some of Hogan's best matches. Had decent matches with JYD! JYD! He sucks! Helped lead the NAO to probably their best match. Had an all time great Raw brawl with Foley. 7 might be low.

Thoughts- Scores high on the NJPW scale but his lack of longevity kills him. Didn't even consider him and I couldn't in good conscience put him on my list even I had. I love Terry Funk but he just wasn't around long enough. It pains me to say it but I have a tough time imagining him landing in my Top 200. Showing up is half the battle. Haku and even Finley are far more "WWF" in my mind than Funk.

88. Dusty Rhodes (NR)

N: 3- Only slightly more nuanced than Duggan but, hey, it worked. Had the shortish run we're all familiar with. Also appeared from time to time in the late 70s-early 80s. I knew about the Graham feud but he was apparently a semi-regular for years. 3 might be low. Idk.

J: 3- There's the Graham feud which was famous enough that I knew about it way back when the Apter Mags were my only real source of "insider" knowledge. His entire 89-91 run is a big blur of nothingness though. Apparently he feuded with Savage & Dibiase. Do not remember. Probably because I got up to get a snack or go to the bathroom whenever Dusty (dis)graced my tv screen. Was not a fan.

P: 5- WHAT?!? A mere 5 for Dusty f'n Rhodes? What is wrong with you, Bakerman? OK, here's the thing. I hated everything about Dusty as a kid. Promos included. He was just the worst. I obviously love Dusty promos nowadays. But all the ones I've seen in the past decade aside from those goofy introductory vignettes with him doing blue collar jobs have been from NWA and elsewhere. So I split the difference and gave him a 5. 

W: 2- Dusty was a blood & guts brawler stuck in probably the least blood & gut rasslin' time and place in wrestling history. It was not a good fit. Hated watching him as a kid. The 2 is for the Graham feud, which apparently produced some good matches.

Thoughts- Did not consider. Gut reaction was Dusty in the Top 100 might be the biggest mistake of them all. BUT if he competed in 70s-early 80s WWF as frequently as his official write up suggests then I can see him....cracking my Top 150. Otherwise he lands outside the Top 200.

*Burnt out. Will be back later if there's any interest.

That springboard corkscrew European uppercut is maybe the dumbest move I've ever seen.

You obviously haven't seen the 6-1...

God damn it Cesaro!

Mar 10, 2018 7:34:54 GMT Big Pete said:

You obviously haven't seen the 6-1...

God damn it Cesaro!

:lol:

The 6-1-9 (Swiss-1-9!) is way more logical a wrestling move. The set up is usually (always) stupid, but the move itself, using the ropes to slingshot oneself, increase leverage and double kick someone's face in is perfectly acceptable wrestling logic. 

Cesaro's what have you, springboarding himself in the air, so he can punch up, while gravity takes him down is the wrestling move equivalent of pissing into the wind. It really doesn't get much dumber. Every high risk maneuver at least is using gravity to its advantage. Cesaro's previous 72 European uppercuts of the evening would all have more force than this stupid move. A springboard European uppercut would be an incredible move to somebody 12 feet tall.

I'm just surprised he didn't attempt a worm.

Good grief.

I know luchadores are tremendous athletes and all, but for all the potential moves you can hit the guy with when he's in that situation, you go with one that's easily telegraphed and requires ridiculous core strength to generate the right amount of force. Why not stiff kick the guy in the back of the head? Because the guy is in the ropes? How is the 619 even legal in Pro Wrestling terms? See, I could buy the Spear as a set-up move, I could buy a spine-buster or something like that, but a 619?

I don't want to defend the springboard uppercut, but at least it could be argued as an ab-lid move where you're not going to make body on body contact, so you extend the elbow and try to take the guy out like that. I don't watch Raw regularly enough to know, but SM or anyone who does, is that a common move? Or does he just pull it off every now and then?

Bray Wyatt is an obvious omission who should be there. Former WWE Champion, has the best entrance in modern Pro Wrestling, had a gimmick that was incredibly over, worked nearly all the top guys and has the matches to back him up. Promos are give or take, but has that 80s WWE style to him where he maybe spouting nonsense, but he stands out from the Jason Jordans, Sheamus', Alberto Del Rios, Randy Ortons etc. of mediocre promos. Surely he's been a better performer than most on that list?

The corkscrew European Uppercut didn't bother me as an individual move. It's really no different than Tracy Smothers' old Jaw Jacker. But it does play into my only complaint about that otherwise awesome sequence- how he had to shoehorn a bunch of Euro Uppercuts in there. Even the save was European Uppercutty! But taking a thing and beating it into the ground has always been the WWE way. Fwiw I didn't even mind the 619! Perhaps because I wasn't expecting it? Or maybe it's just Swiss 1-9 > 619? Yeah. That's it. CESARO! CESARO! CESARO!

I may have been hasty with all that "so and so wouldn't even crack my Top 200!" nonsense from yesterday. I played around with it a little more last night and realized maybe WWE history isn't as deep as I thought. Haku & Regal finished in the 130s with Finlay around 150. Still below Hardcore Holly though! And Tatanka. And Dino Bravo. And Hercules was above Finlay. And...you get the point.

Bray and Alberto Del Rio were my last cuts among modern era guys. Think I had them at 107 & 108. Their WWE/World Championship reigns were a big point in their favor. Early Wyatt was one of the few modern wrestlers to grab my attention. Great character. Great presentation. Interesting on the mic. But by all accounts Bray peaked early (I know I stopped caring years ago) while ADR is almost universally considered a colossal bore after his initial few months.

The springboard corkscrew uppercut is garbage for exactly the reasons Kilgore stated. For a long time I thought I was the only one who saw the nonsensical nature of the move. Everyone else goes crazy for it, because it looks cool or something.

Kilgore Emperor Do you also have a problem with the shooting star press? SSP performers are rotating up while falling down. Doesn't that make it just as bad as Cesaro's move?

Never really thought about it to be honest. Just looking at the move, it clearly has a similar level of impact as a Moonsault or any other top rope splash. Gravity dominates everything else. The way I see it, the amount of rotation and flips doesn't affect the impact. The benefit is some variety. It would be pretty boring if every top rope finisher was a Frog Splash or a Moonsault. Variations like the Shooting Star Press, 450 Splash, and Phoenix Splash have aesthetic value and offer something different. Just like there are various flavours of DDTs and Piledrivers.

Mar 11, 2018 23:48:16 GMT Baker said:

Kilgore Emperor Do you also have a problem with the shooting star press? SSP performers are rotating up while falling down. Doesn't that make it just as bad as Cesaro's move?

That's an interesting thought. Would the force of a SSP be less than a regular splash? I would think no because by the time you finish your backwards rotation, you're still (I think) falling at the same rate your mass would dictate. Now when you throw in something like a 450 splash, which seemingly makes you fall at a faster rate than "free fall" speeds (Like a Waltman snap leg drop versus a Sid one), should that be considered more of a death move than a regular splash or a SSP which is aesthetically doing the opposite? Is a Great Muta snap moonsault actually more effective than a prettier looking Kurt Angle moonsault? We need a wrestling physics major to weigh in. I should mention I've never taken physics and barely graduated high school.  :lol:

To answer your question, I don't consider a SSP to have the same problems as Cesaro's what have you because the SSP is still using gravity to its advantage. Your full weight is still falling from a distance on your opponent. Cesaro's European uppercut is punching at less than his body weight as he's falling in the opposite direction of the punch. Both would be unnecessary flash, but only Cesaro's flash would affect results negatively.

Mar 12, 2018 0:17:22 GMT Kilgore said:

Mar 11, 2018 23:48:16 GMT Baker said:

Kilgore Emperor Do you also have a problem with the shooting star press? SSP performers are rotating up while falling down. Doesn't that make it just as bad as Cesaro's move?

That's an interesting thought. Would the force of a SSP be less than a regular splash? I would think no because by the time you finish your backwards rotation, you're still (I think) falling at the same rate your mass would dictate. Now when you throw in something like a 450 splash, which seemingly makes you fall at a faster rate than "free fall" speeds (Like a Waltman snap leg drop versus a Sid one), should that be considered more of a death move than a regular splash or a SSP which is aesthetically doing the opposite? Is a Great Muta snap moonsault actually more effective than a prettier looking Kurt Angle moonsault? We need a wrestling physics major to weigh in. I should mention I've never taken physics and barely graduated high school. 

To answer your question, I don't consider a SSP to have the same problems as Cesaro's what have you because the SSP is still using gravity to its advantage. Your full weight is still falling from a distance on your opponent. Cesaro's European uppercut is punching at less than his body weight as he's falling in the opposite direction of the punch. Both would be unnecessary flash, but only Cesaro's flash would affect results negatively.

I actually had thought of the Great Shooting Star Press Physics Problem long before the Cesaro controversy brought it back to the forefront of my brain. My theory is rotating upwards does negatively effect the impact but I never had a problem overlooking it because Shooting Star Presses are kewl. I also decided the 450 Splash (and Cannonball) are more effective than regular splashes because rotating downwards (with gravity) increases the impact. 

I never took a Proper Physics class because I was always looking for the easiest way through school. (I also opted out of the GT program because of too much homework. My parents were not happy.) Instead I took a class called Practical Physics i.e. Physics For Dummies. Think I did fairly well in it but I'll be damned if I could tell you anything about it today. Same goes for Trig. What's the deal with Sine, Cosine & Tangent? I'm sure I could have told you 15-20 years ago. Nowadays forget about it.

The official top ten has finally dropped....

placetobenation.com/ptbn-greatest-wwe-wrestler-ever-results-the-top-100-10-1/

For lazy people...

1. Randy Savage
2. Steve Austin
3. Hulk Hogan
4. John Cena
5. Bret Hart
6. Shawn Michaels
7. The Rock
8. Bruno Sammartino
9. Undertaker
10. Chris Jericho

Well, that was unexpected. I did not foresee Savage at #1. Will be back with more comments later. And you know I have them.

Savage always ranks a little higher on paper than he did in real life because he always aces every aspect of what makes a great pro wrestler. We went through this when we were doing our Bret Hart grades on the old board. I think 'Taker/Rock belong above Hart/Michaels. I'm obviously thrilled Bret is ahead of Shawn. Jericho seems a tad high, although I didn't make a Top 10 list, so I might find that it's a perfect ranking. Bruno ... I never know how to rank Bruno. He could be #1 or #10, I'd be like cool shit, man. Bruno was fucking Bruno. Cena belongs next to Backlund, not Hogan. That's a much closer comparison.

I fucking LOVE Savage, but this kinda proves to me that the "NJPW" criteria was dumb as fuck after all.

I'm surprised The Undertaker finished so highly and yet HHH can't even crack the Top 20. The exact same arguments that can be made against Hunter can be applied to the Deadman. Sure, he had plenty of career highlights but there were long stretches of just awful programs. An argument could be made that he struggled to have a decent program until Foley, so that's 5 years into his run in the company.

His best stretches were 96-98 & 07-08, surrounded by years of complete and utter inconsistency. He's been semi-retired since 2010 and hasn't had a great match since 2013. If we're marking guys down, then Cena & Taker's position needs to be reviewed.

At some point during the past week I thought about offering a Top 10 prediction before deciding against it because it would be dumb to predict anything when you only have a clue who like 2% of the voters are. The only thing I felt fairly confident in was Jericho finishing #10 (which he did). Everything else was a crap shoot. With that being said, I most certainly did not expect Randy Savage to finish #1.

The thing that hurts Savage (and the Rock) for me is they weren't even the biggest stars of their respective eras unless Hogan happened to be making movies or Austin was out with an injury. They may be wrestling's two greatest second bananas, but second bananas is what they are. They're two all time greats, to be sure. It just so happens that they were stuck in an era with the two greatest stars of all time in Hogan & Austin.

Or maybe I'm just overly concerned with star power? Because if we go strictly by NJPW Savage beats Hogan rather handily. I lost my little scrap of paper where I NJPWed the Top 10 but, iirc, Bret & Shawn scored 37. Think Austin, Savage & Jericho (who scored surprisingly well) were 35 or 36. Rock 34. Taker 32-33. Cena & Hogan 30. Bruno 28. Those numbers may not be exactly right, but they're close.

But, yeah, I'm still a star power/drawing mark and I stand by my Top 3 of 1. Hogan 2. Austin 3. Bruno. When I think WWF, those are the guys I think of first. Then Undertaker, who spanned a ridiculous amount of eras, and I had at #4.

Fwiw they're doing a Greatest WWE Tag Team countdown next.
prowrestlingonly.com/index.php?/topic/41286-ptbn-gwwe-tag-team-project/
It's 50/50 right now on whether I participate so the Quebecers & Fabulous Rougeau Brothers get a boost.

Sitting around waiting to go to my tax appointment is proving to be rather boring. I shouldn't have taken off work today. Oh well. To pass the time I decided to SuperCard MashUp the Top 20.

1. Bob Backlund (19) vs. Rey Mysterio (20)- The two leftovers. Rey vs. Mr. Backlund could be fun, I guess.

2. Eddie Guerrero (13) vs. CM Punk (15)- Could be an epic feud especially if Punk goes full heel like he did in his ROH feud with Raven.

3. Mick Foley (11) vs. Kurt Angle (14)- I know they had a match in TNA but that was when both guys were past it. Angle vs. Foley in the early 2000s was always a dream match of mine. Both guys are loons in the ring. This would be nuts.

4. Bret Hart (5) vs. Chris Jericho (10)- Who is the greatest Canadian wrestler?

5. Brock Lesnar (16) vs. Daniel Bryan (17)- The best monster of the modern era vs. its most beloved babyface. This logically should have main evented Wrestlemania a few years ago.

6. John Cena (4) vs. Bruno Sammartino (8)- The top star of the pre-Hulkmania era meets the top star of the post-Attitude Era.

7. The Rock (7) vs. Roddy Piper (12)- Two of the greatest trash talkers in company history make for a natural pairing.

8. Undertaker (9) vs. Andre the Giant (18)- Battle of the giant company legend special attractions.

9. Randy Savage (1) vs. Shawn Michaels [6]- Likely MOTN, if not Match of All Time. Any face/heel alignment works but pissed off face Savage wanting to kill cocky prick heel HBK over Shawn having the hots for Elizabeth would be best of all.

10. Steve Austin (2) vs. Hulk Hogan (3)- It's the 80s vs. the 90s when the two biggest stars in company history finally meet in the ultimate clash of the titans.

Mar 15, 2018 16:30:04 GMT Baker said:

Sitting around waiting to go to my tax appointment is proving to be rather boring. I shouldn't have taken off work today. Oh well. To pass the time I decided to SuperCard MashUp the Top 20.

1. Bob Backlund (19) vs. Rey Mysterio (20)- The two leftovers. Rey vs. Mr. Backlund could be fun, I guess.

2. Eddie Guerrero (13) vs. CM Punk (15)- Could be an epic feud especially if Punk goes full heel like he did in his ROH feud with Raven.

3. Mick Foley (11) vs. Kurt Angle (14)- I know they had a match in TNA but that was when both guys were past it. Angle vs. Foley in the early 2000s was always a dream match of mine. Both guys are loons in the ring. This would be nuts.

4. Bret Hart (5) vs. Chris Jericho (10)- Who is the greatest Canadian wrestler?

5. Brock Lesnar (16) vs. Daniel Bryan (17)- The best monster of the modern era vs. its most beloved babyface. This logically should have main evented Wrestlemania a few years ago.

6. John Cena (4) vs. Bruno Sammartino (8)- The top star of the pre-Hulkmania era meets the top star of the post-Attitude Era.

7. The Rock (7) vs. Roddy Piper (12)- Two of the greatest trash talkers in company history make for a natural pairing.

8. Undertaker (9) vs. Andre the Giant (18)- Battle of the giant company legend special attractions.

9. Randy Savage (1) vs. Shawn Michaels [6]- Likely MOTN, if not Match of All Time. Any face/heel alignment works but pissed off face Savage wanting to kill cocky prick heel HBK over Shawn having the hots for Elizabeth would be best of all.

10. Steve Austin (2) vs. Hulk Hogan (3)- It's the 80s vs. the 90s when the two biggest stars in company history finally meet in the ultimate clash of the titans.

Possibly the greatest SuperCard MashUp of all time.