I just saw it. And it finally hit. I think every wrestling fan that ever took the "sport" seriously ends their fandom by accepting one point. Almost feels like Proboards Era PW has quietly put it on the table. Without really saying IT, it says IT.

Like to reach Nirvana as a "smart mark" if someone presents this and you're instantly in agreement. Like for instance if I put SABU out there, we should both be able to just look at each other and know. "Yeah man, he really was". You can't really describe it out loud but to respect them as a fan you'd have to present the situation. Sabu. And if you both just kinda nod in agreement... that's when you know.

How is that not a level of trust in a person? Daddy I need a loan, pwomise to pay you back. If you present Sabu to them and they give the right answer, I'd cosign on the spot. There's never really been an argument against him in the ways that mattered... like sit down with a random talking wrestling for a day, start with Sabu. That will tell you pretty soon on if this other person gets it. That's the example. There's getting into wrestling and then there's getting "into" wrestling. I think we know which one is Sabu.

Like bruh, can't we all as a forum and I'm talking @tagall members in agreement. Just take whatever Sabu is presented as, what you saw... and really THINK. Cuz when you're thinking wrestling as anything legitimate in that dirty sorta way... ain't he though? We don't even gotta say it. I just gotta know PW has felt it? Like how can you not look at Sabu and be like "yeah man, even if you don't get... you kinda do."

Even his WORST DETRACTOR whoever they is, kinda has to squint and go... I guess in a way.

Like dude he is THE BRIDGE from rasslin to true entertainment. He was the LAST one holding it down. Foley is God Dammit. The syrup is so fucking sweet when you finally realize it. Like I'm not saying amend your mount rushmore or anything BUT... like the grime of it? Cuz I'm gonna be honest... the further away from Sabu you get as a sport/genre/whatever... doesn't it only get WORSE? What wrestling is POSSED TUH BE. How is that not just IT man. Like I'm sorry... sorry that he gave us everything and... he's not appreciated fully in his own time. It's so delicious bro when you finally see it.

Sabu.

You are goddamned right. Like when you see it... all you gotta do is give the look. Yeah. I know. The sting of him not being listed in those lists...

Like I'm not saying do it. But in the times of no laws and zombies... maybe your initiation should be: pick the best representation for the SQUARED CIRCLE. Sell it as legitimate keep KAYFABE alive. Fucking Sabu man. If homeboy reaches the compound gate ask him. And if they say Sabu, you let him in because he understands and you will NOT regret it. Like for real yo. Just imagine going on a plane and some dude strikes up a convo about SABU. Wouldn't you just be like... okay, let's fucking GO. Don't you just sometimes fantasize about it? Please give me an excuse to talk about Sabu.

Sabu man. I'm saying it. Argue against it. You can't. It makes sense in all the right ways. Bret is PW's pro wrestler but goddamit... Sabu is A FUCKING PRO WRESTLER like in it's purest form. Like the "gut" feeling of a this is wrestling chant... but not lame and cringe. That chant is the opposite of "saying without saying it". Like member when Jerry Lynn won the ROH title and people said cuz he looks like Randy the Ram. THE WRESTLER. You know who the wrestler is? SABU.

This won't make sense, but I think the real ones will get it. Like have someone even make a top x of wrestlers. If Sabu ain't on there in a real way, like I don't trust your judgement.

Is that a long winded attempt at saying Sabu is legit?

Maybe you're not even supposed to see it at first. It's the only real way to take it in. You can lead a horse to water. They have to come willingly. We have 11 federal holidays. If a wrestler had to be the 12th like in honor... it has to be Sabu. Had to be a fireworks one out of respect.

I dunno why but Sabu just he's the one. If countries had national wrestler, fucking Snag Sabu America. Cuz like that's the winner.

Ness, I get being long-winded, trust me but not about SABU! the man is a pioneer of wrestling. I'll dissect your word salad later. :woot:

Baker man... on the same vein... I think I finally understand Lawler Mania. The old go to "Lawler is still better than 98% of whatever pool of talent" actually starts making more sense. Dude I'm starting a list. Guys that are just PRO WRESTLING. Sabu. Lawler. Who's reshaping the mt. rushmore hierarchy?

I'm telling ya man I needs my wrestling to have a certain level of grime and sleaze to it. Kayfabe is important for this to work man. What IS wrestling? I think that's what it is for me. I think that always sold "old school" for me. He wasn't sloppy in a cage, this is just real shit.

It's not pro wrestling anymore. I don't mean that in a bad way. It's just something else. Lawler. Flair. Sabu. Guys like that... Dude even IN the modern era, they endured.

Ness, Sabu was like the grudge rock era in comparison to the flamboyance of wrestling & hair metal of the 1980s. Sabu was cutting edge.

Is wrestling just music? Whatever society reflects that is their image but it only really works in certain settings. Watching a match is watching a music video without the music.

Except wrestling is 5 years behind whatever the current trend in music is.

May 26, 2023 23:52:03 GMT Ness said:

Baker man... on the same vein... I think I finally understand Lawler Mania. The old go to "Lawler is still better than 98% of whatever pool of talent" actually starts making more sense. Dude I'm starting a list. Guys that are just PRO WRESTLING. Sabu. Lawler. Who's reshaping the mt. rushmore hierarchy?

Throw Flair (who you wisely mentioned in your next post), Terry Funk, and Cactus Jack on the list.
===============
John McAdam's latest podcast featured some Superstar Billy Graham interviews and I realized he sounds a whole lot like Dusty Rhodes. Now I'm wondering who ripped off who.

Bill James was the first stat nerd of baseball in the 1980s, his writings basically gave birth to modern sabermetrics. Which is why it was so funny, and sort of profound, that when he got to Don Mattingly (my favorite baseball player ever) in his Baseball Abstract book, he simply wrote: "Don Mattingly: 100% ballplayer, 0% bullshit." Bill didn't have to reach for any stats, traditional or new, like he did with every other player to describe their excellence, that one concise sentence said it all. And everyone that read it understood what he meant. And understood that he was absolutely correct.

I feel like this is what Ness is getting at with his list of wrestlers. 100% wrestlers, 0% bullshit. And not in the typical "real wrestler" kind of way, like, Dean Malenko is a real wrestler, he doesn't have to do anything else. It's more abstract than that. They're just everything that is right about wrestling, a multifaceted thing, filled with intangible aspects that we will never be able to articulate. These are the purest examples of what will never be able to be articulated, without any of the bullshit. The 100 percenters. 

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}

I forget the year but I believe Sabu was the 1st wrestler to win wrestler of the year besides Ric Flair.

May 27, 2023 7:38:38 GMT Kilgore said:

Bill James was the first stat nerd of baseball in the 1980s, his writings basically gave birth to modern sabermetrics. Which is why it was so funny, and sort of profound, that when he got to Don Mattingly (my favorite baseball player ever) in his Baseball Abstract book, he simply wrote: "Don Mattingly: 100% ballplayer, 0% bullshit." Bill didn't have to reach for any stats, traditional or new, like he did with every other player to describe their excellence, that one concise sentence said it all. And everyone that read it understood what he meant. And understood that he was absolutely correct.

I feel like this is what Ness is getting at with his list of wrestlers. 100% wrestlers, 0% bullshit. And not in the typical "real wrestler" kind of way, like, Dean Malenko is a real wrestler, he doesn't have to do anything else. It's more abstract than that. They're just everything that is right about wrestling, a multifaceted thing, filled with intangible aspects that we will never be able to articulate. These are the purest examples of what will never be able to be articulated, without any of the bullshit. The 100 percenters. 

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}

It's all in Mattingly's nickname, "Donnie Baseball", loved him as a kid. I pretended I was him during the couple of years I played first base.

As for wrestlers, basically it's guys who have the physical talent but also exude a certain charisma that's both bad ass and/or over the top entertaining at the same time.

My list for starters:

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}
Steve Austin
Terry Funk
Harley Race
Ric Flair
Jerry Lawler
Randy Savage
Bret Hart
Taz
Sabu
Jake Roberts
Eddie Guerrero
Mick Foley
Kurt Angle
Stan Hansen
Arn Anderson
Dusty Rhodes
Mr. Perfect
Paul Orndorff
Roddy Piper
Bobby Roode
Kevin Owens
Samoa Joe

Wouldn't Brock be the " 100% wrestler 0% bullshit " to a tee?

May 27, 2023 21:43:41 GMT N A T H said:

Wouldn't Brock be the " 100% wrestler 0% bullshit " to a tee?

Haven't seen enough of his second run to say for sure, but definitely seems to be the most obvious 100 percenter of the 21st Century.

It's harder for me to pinpoint for guys in the HD entertainment era, so I wouldn't even notice Brock in that way. But it makes sense. When he tried out for the Vikings anyone with a brain would've (convinced someone else) told him he this ain't it boy. You belong in the ring. Don't waste time here, go fuck up shit in Japan with Kurt.

May 27, 2023 7:38:38 GMT Kilgore said:

Bill James was the first stat nerd of baseball in the 1980s

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}

Kilgore did Mattingly a disservice by posting a rare pic of him without the iconic stache. I reject a clean shaven Donnie Baseball with every fiber of my being. Rest of the image is on point though. We Oriole fans were trained to hate the Yankees so I have to admit my all time favorite Don Mattingly moment is that time Jeff Ballard struck him out three times in one game. You had to respect him though. He was the best player in the game when I was getting into baseball. Then his Simpsons appearance turned me into a full-fledged fan. Too bad the definitive Yankee of my childhood never won the big one. Shame he retired right before the Yankee dynasty took off.

Bill James was pure. Gotta love a guy who invented new stats which would eventually change the game of baseball while killing time at a boring night watchman job in Kansas. I had an extremely thick Bill James book chronicling the 1986 season when I was young. Because I was so young much of it went over my head at the time, but years later when James became a thing my brother was like "Isn't that the guy who wrote that thick white book you had?" You know it. Ahead of the curve I was. 

May 27, 2023 17:05:19 GMT Ed said:

I forget the year but I believe Sabu was the 1st wrestler to win wrestler of the year besides Ric Flair.

I remembered something similar so I looked it up. Think you're referring to the Wrestling Observer Newsletter Favorite Wrestler Award which Sabu won in 1994 after a decade of Flair dominance.

May 27, 2023 18:29:25 GMT Shootist said:

My list for starters:


Randy Savage

Good call. Macho was the next guy I thought of.
==============
As Ness hinted at it's an intangible quality. Only the real ones get it. And we know it when we see it. To define it is a fool's errand. Yet of course I tried because a fool I am.

Most of my 'definitions' were quickly debunked...by myself. But one held on longer than most- The truly pure could only be professional wrestlers. It's in their blood. Pro Wrestling is them and they are Pro Wrestling. You could never see them working a boring, basic 9 to 5. They can barely function in the mundane real world. I listed Flair, Funk, Lawler, Sabu, Savage & Foley. This theory ultimately died with Mick. I could see him working some mundane office job. But the rest could only thrive in the world of pro wrestling where they became Gods among men. 

May 28, 2023 0:53:34 GMT Baker said:

May 27, 2023 7:38:38 GMT Kilgore said:

Bill James was the first stat nerd of baseball in the 1980s

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}

Kilgore did Mattingly a disservice by posting a rare pic of him without the iconic stache. I reject a clean shaven Donnie Baseball with every fiber of my being. Rest of the image is on point though. We Oriole fans were trained to hate the Yankees so I have to admit my all time favorite Don Mattingly moment is that time Jeff Ballard struck him out three times in one game. You had to respect him though. He was the best player in the game when I was getting into baseball. Then his Simpsons appearance turned me into a full-fledged fan. Too bad the definitive Yankee of my childhood never won the big one. Shame he retired right before the Yankee dynasty took off.

It's also sad he's not in the HoF. Striking Mattingly out 3 times in a game is very impressive, dude was near the top of the Ab/K chart every year.

Converse sure had cool ad campaigns back then, coupled with the Magic/Bird TV spots.

Also going by the "he couldn't be a ham n' egger" eye test, the in ring skill may be a point of contention but the Ultimate Warrior should be on the list of 100%'ers.

It's the diner scene. "You never wanted a regular type life" - To be a 100%er you have reach that point of you can't do anything else and you don't much want to either. Both are key. It's what make them "authentic" as nath translated for me. Legit. Some guys are wrestlers because it's all they can do. The list people? It's because it's what they are. It's what separates them in kayfabe. Some guys I can just picture doing hiptoss drills and learning in wrestling school. The ones that are catching my eye right now... I can't picture that. That feels like it was created in a lab. These guys? They just IS.

This is the best discussion we've had here in HoW in a while. EDIT: Therefore I decided to break it off into a thread of its own.

May 28, 2023 2:18:22 GMT Ness said:

It's the diner scene. "You never wanted a regular type life" - To be a 100%er you have reach that point of you can't do anything else and you don't much want to either. Both are key. It's what make them "authentic" as nath translated for me. Legit. Some guys are wrestlers because it's all they can do. The list people? It's because it's what they are. It's what separates them in kayfabe. Some guys I can just picture doing hiptoss drills and learning in wrestling school. The ones that are catching my eye right now... I can't picture that. That feels like it was created in a lab. These guys? They just IS.

Beautiful. 

May 28, 2023 2:11:48 GMT Shootist said:

Also going by the "he couldn't be a ham n' egger" eye test, the in ring skill may be a point of contention but the Ultimate Warrior should be on the list of 100%'ers.

Intriguing. But I disagree. While Warrior does pass my admittedly imperfect "couldn't function in normal society" test he ultimately (hehe) fails because pro wrestling is not in his blood. He didn't eat, sleep, breathe the business like the tru 100%ers. You gotta want it. More than that. You gotta love it.

You bringing up Warrior reminds me I considered Hogan....for about two seconds. Simply because he's another guy who could only exist in pro wrestling. Then I came to my senses. For starters, he's the polar opposite of real one poster boy Sabu. Plus Hogan is too clean...too manufactured...too Hollywood (no pun intended for once). The real ones have a certain grit to them. They'd bleed every night. They'd die for their art. Which brings me to...

Dusty Rhodes & Roddy Piper. I see no drawbacks in these two. Throw 'em on the list.
EDIT: Props to Shootist for beating me to them. Agree with most on his list. The other Eddie G- Gilbert deserves a bust in the Real Ones Hall of Fame as well.
===================

May 28, 2023 2:03:01 GMT Shootist said:

May 28, 2023 0:53:34 GMT Baker said:

I have to admit my all time favorite Don Mattingly moment is that time Jeff Ballard struck him out three times in one game. 

Striking Mattingly out 3 times in a game is very impressive, dude was near the top of the Ab/K chart every year.

Ballard was a soft-tossing southpaw. A one year wonder and Baker Guy* who got rocked in 87-88, and sucked every year after 89, but the man was money during that one magical "Why Not" season, winning 18 games with a solid 3.43 ERA. I was OBSESSED with the 1989 Orioles to the point where I must have watched this locally distributed movie/documentary on the team a hundred times. That is not an exaggeration.

*To the point where one year I wanted to wear his #29 on my baseball team. Alas, the numbers only went up to 17. 
EDIT: Just remembered I did finally get to wear Ballard's #29 years later when I was playing softball. 

Anyway, here is Jeff Ballard making Don Mattingly look foolish. By the 3rd one Donnie Baseball has had enough of Ballard. Throwing bats. Throwing helmets. It is a beautiful sight to behold.





EDIT: Just found a "Catching Up With Jeff Ballard" Baltimore Sun article from 2011 that starts with the line "One game, especially, sticks with Ballard: an August victory over New York in which he struck out Yankees' star Don Mattingly three times." Love how Jeff Ballard is basically the real life version of that former Dallas Cowboy who blocked a kick one time in a King of the Hill episode 

We should nominate and induct 100 percenters. X amount of Yays (3? 5?) and they're in. I would vote no on Ultimate Warrior and Hogan for similar Baker reasons. There has to be a certain artistry, or a purity you can't describe. I remember watching Sabu at an ECW House show, no more than 300 people in a rec center gymnasium, and he wrestled it like it was WrestleMania. There was no saving it for a bigger show, save it for the cameras, Sabu simply has to wrestle like Sabu. He couldn't phone it in if he tried. It's like his body would reject doing anything other than being Sabu.

It makes it really difficult, although not impossible, for careerists to be 100 percenters.

Or even people who have the look, that could only be a pro wrestler, it's a lot, but it's not everything. Like Bam Bam Bigelow could only be a professional wrestler, but he could never be a 100 percenter. There's a passion missing. 

May 28, 2023 4:49:39 GMT Kilgore said:

We should nominate and induct 100 percenters. X amount of Yays (3? 5?) and they're in. I would vote no on Ultimate Warrior and Hogan for similar Baker reasons. There has to be a certain artistry, or a purity you can't describe. I remember watching Sabu at an ECW House show, no more than 300 people in a rec center gymnasium, and he wrestled it like it was WrestleMania. There was no saving it for a bigger show, save it for the cameras, Sabu simply has to wrestle like Sabu. He couldn't phone it in if he tried. It's like his body would reject doing anything other than being Sabu.

It makes it really difficult, although not impossible, for careerists to be 100 percenters.

Or even people who have the look, that could only be a pro wrestler, it's a lot, but it's not everything. Like Bam Bam Bigelow could only be a professional wrestler, but he could never be a 100 percenter. There's a passion missing. 

Bam Bam Bigelow is extra special in my book, being a bounty hunter and selflessly trying to save people from fires. He's his own category.

I have the Ultimate Collection DVD of Warrior. He came across in the interview segments as a guy who was obsessed with how his character was presented and really cared about not cheating the fans in that sense. He was kind of like a warped Bret Hart when it came to taking the gimmick seriously.

Jeff Ballard is even more insane. I just looked up his career 2.8K/9 average and going from 18-8 to 2-11. Doing Mattingly like that is a true anomaly.

Kilgore I will go along with your voting idea.

Been thinking about this topic a lot today as I went about my mundane daily tasks real ones would reject and once again tried devising a formula to quantify the unquantifiable even knowing it is an impossible feat...

1. Grit. Hardcore wrestlers have a stronger shot than most at being 100%ers as you will see in a few minutes.
2. A oneness with pro wrestling. Real ones don't try. They IS in the immortal words of Ness . The gimmick is the person. The person is the gimmick. They bleed in bingo halls. They work podunk towns when they don't have to. They often hang on too long. Why? Because pro wrestling is all they know.
3. An inability to function in regular society. Real ones could only thrive in pro wrestling. 
4. Outlaw vibes. Kilgore hinted at this with his comment about careerists. Most real ones walk on the wild side. They're often shady. They might even be dangerous.
5. They're born with it. Ness had that great line about hip tosses. You can't picture the 100%ers learning hip tosses in wrestling school. They come out of the womb knowing how to do hip tosses. Either that or they're so pure as to be above hip tosses entirely.

These are not hard and fast rules because, again, you can't measure something like this. It's more a feeling. You know it when you see it. But all the wrestlers I've considered check most of these boxes. Time to throw out some new names...

21st Century Real Ones

Jay & Mark Briscoe
Necro Butcher
Nick Gage
Teddy Hart

*Briscoes are So Pure It's Painful (coincidentally my original name for Demon Semen). I've barely seen Necro & Gage, but I have seen enough to know they're real ones. Even once saw a Seth Rollins interview where called Necro “the Sabu of my generation.” And of course Teddy Hart is real as it gets.

More Historical 100%ers

New Jack
Sandman
Andre The Giant
Bruiser Brody
Abdullah The Butcher
Dump Matsumoto
The Sheik
Ricky Morton

On The Fence

Steve Austin
Michael Hayes
Eddie Guerrero
Chris Jericho
Bully Ray

NO: Tommy Dreamer. I like Tommy Dreamer. Have for 25 years. So why am I singling him out? Because this is what he so desperately wanted to be. He tried SO HARD to be a real one. And that's the thing. You don't TRY. You IS. It's inborn. You either have it or you don't.

This is also why I have Austin, Eddie, Jericho, Bully (and others I didn't feel like listing) on the fence. It took them a while to find themselves. I can easily picture them in wrestling school learning hip tosses. I can't picture those wrestlers I listed above them doing hip toss drills. 

May 28, 2023 5:49:22 GMT Shootist said:

Jeff Ballard is even more insane. I just looked up his career 2.8K/9 average and going from 18-8 to 2-11. Doing Mattingly like that is a true anomaly.

This post sent me down a rabbit hole. The voiceover for that Ballard/Mattingly segment went "Jeff Ballard, hardly a strikeout pitcher, three times fanned Yankee superstar Don Mattingly, hardly a strikeout hitter."  So I knew Ballard was not a strikeout pitcher and Mattingly not a strikeout hitter, but I did not realize the extent of it.

2.8 K/9 is insane! Since 1960 only nine pitchers have recorded 10 career wins with a K/9 under 3. Ballard ranks third among them with 41. He also ranks second among that group in innings pitched. Of all the players to debut since 1980 Mattingly ranks as the 4th hardest to strikeout (behind Gwynn, Brian Harper, and Gregg Jefferies). So Ballard striking Mattingly out three times in one game is low key one of the craziest things to happen in modern baseball history.

I want to give Roddy Piper a shout. The dude walked the walk and talked the talk whether it was in the ring or out. The way he talked and romanized about pro wrestling in interviews or on his podcast you knew he had a deep love for the business. My main argument Piper is the time he went on the Bill Maher show and pulled his pants down in front of a live audience to show a giant bruise on his ass. All to defend the honor of pro wrestling. That is a fucking pro wrestler right there.

Also, how has no one mentioned Haku?

Pains me to say it but CM Punk is a real one.