With PW down I had to go elsewhere for an hour or so. While hanging out in Bizarro World I was forced to do some research to prove what I consider an obvious fact- Hogan was a bigger star than Austin (or anybody else). As all real ones know by now, the Hogan/Andre Main Event drew a whopping 33 million viewers. Here's what you might not know...

Nowadays. with Youtube available at the fingertips of billions around the world, WWE hasn't released a single video in the last year with 33 million or more views. Hogan drew that number during one hour in one specific country.

Fwiw AEW only has two videos with 33 million or more views. Both are over 3 years old.

There's a reason STINKO Steve ( (c) @theboss) was too scared to face him @ 18.

Hogan is somehow underrated.

First, for what he accomplished before the WWF (unprecedented success for an American in Japan, getting himself booked on Johnny Carson in an era where wrestlers did not get booked to such things, which got himself cast in Rocky III, which then made Hulkamania the biggest thing in all of wrestling for ... AWA). Never forget that Hogan became Hogan without Vince. Would WWF become the WWF without Hogan? A question no one has ever been truly able to answer. Cowards don't want anything to do with that question.

Then his success in the WWF has also somehow been underrated because he got on the bad side of the propaganda machine twice.

Can we talk about what a fucking ingrate Vincent Kennedy McMahon is? He's looking to replace Hogan with someone younger as early as 1988 (after Hogan draws the biggest card ever in 1987!). Then he successfully coups the Hogan run with Warrior in 1990, until it doesn't work, so he puts the strap back on Hogan the next year. Then by 1992 he's looking at Sid as the younger Hogan, and 1993 at Luger as the next Hogan, and Hogan is finally gone. Then Vince is burying Hogan's entire run by 1994/1995 with bad Huckster skits, and having lackeys use his music by the late '90s to make fun of him.

Almost a full decade of the WWF, one of the greatest hype machines in any capacity of media, not only refusing to hype Hogan for what he did, but are instead using that machine against him to make it seem like he sucks and always has sucked.

This is not meant to erase Hogan's sins, which were many, and he was no doubt a pain in the ass throughout most of his run on top, and also a bit of a rat during the steroid trial. This is all true. But it's fucked up how shitty Vince treated his golden goose before most of this happened and how belligerently ungrateful he was publicly(!) in the years after. How much money did Hogan make him? And the year after he's gone, you just bury him on a weekly basis? Take shots at him for close to a decade? Shitty, petty, and also dumb. Because if Hulk Hogan sucks, what a poor reflection of the WWF, who had him closing the first 9 WrestleManias.

So Hogan returns in the aughts. There are ups and downs. Whatever, I missed all of it. He's kind of a returning mascot after the TNA debacle (The Hogan/Austin/Rock opening WrestleMania was one of the coolest images for me in recent memory). Then the N-Word Scandal drops and Hogan is temporarily erased from history.

Now this one is 100% Hogan's fault. The WWE's dictatorship level of altering history is, obviously, super weird, but a face of your company drops the N-Word, and yeah, you're going to want to distance yourself. Everyone gets it. I only bring this up in this context because it is now the second time that the WWE, the writers of wrestling history, are writing off Hogan's contributions. Justifiably, unjustifiably, it doesn't matter, this is just what happened. So we have two fairly long periods of time (15 or 20 combined years!) where the WWE is not only failing to hype the biggest draw they ever had as such, but are pretending (1) he fucking sucks or (2) doesn't exist/has never existed.

This is how the biggest draw in wrestling history can seem like he wasn't to a large percentage of people who think they know wrestling history.

Not gonna lie, the troll title to the "RIP to the GOAT Terry" thread worked on me and had me thinking Terry Bollea first.

I can't get over Hogan's 00 run.

They bring him in with heavy trepadation in 2002, but their stance softens after Wrestlemania X-8 and suddenly they go all-in. However the moment they put the machine behind Hogan, the fans instantly lose interest and the company begins hemorrhaging money. They put Hogan on the backburner and when he starts jobbing out to Christian and Lance Storm, Hogan sees the writing on the wall and agrees to put Brock over on the way out. Except instead of it simply shelving Hogan, they call it a career ending injury which pisses Hogan off.

They make peace and entice Hogan to return for Suvivor Series that year. However when Hogan talks about beating Brock for the title they instantly ghost Hogan and call him impossible to deal with. So they move the Big Show over from RAW, have him beat Brock, only to drop the title to Angle a month later, point proven.

However it's Wrestlemania season and Vince is mending fences left and right. Austin is back, so Hogan gets a call and they build Wrestlemania XIX around Vince-Hogan, end result? One of the worst performing Wrestlemanias of all-time. Hogan's back, but business is tanking hard and despite the Mr. America/Vince segments drawing some huge ratings (over 1.5 million increases) it's not really leading anywhere. I think it all comes to a head when Hogan is made to look weak in multiple segments for no good reason, so the Hair vs. Mask match at Vengeance is completely scrapped and Hogan ends up having a press conference with NWA-TNA that doesn't go anywhere.

Comes back for the Hall of Fame and Wrestlemania XXI and all seems right again. That's until he sits down to talk business with Shawn Michaels and since Hogan has his eyes set on Austin at Wrestlemania XXII, he sees no reason why he'd have to put HBK over. HBK chucks a fit, does the favour in the most passive aggressive way possible and washes his hands of it. Hogan still tries to promote the match with Austin, but Austin is having none of it and the Hulkster goes back to filming his reality tv show.

Then they have one last fling where they get desperate and they throw him Randy Orton who has been in the doghouse all year just to bolster SummerSlam.

It had to be one of the most toxic relationships possible, with Austin and JR as possible contenders.

Imagine bringing Austin out of retirement only for him to job to Coachman.

I'm just here for my daily dose of Kilgore reminding us Vince's success is all dumb blind luck as everything he tries to change he always finds out eventually.

Honestly, Hulk's 2002 revival in the E was a strong rebound from most of his WCW tenure. WCW/NWA was DOA from 1987-the end anyway.

Before I get into this I have to refresh you guys on my history with Hogan...

Pre-1987: I knew who Hulk Hogan was before I knew what wrestling was. Meaning Hogan was bigger than wrestling. Wrestling soon became "that thing Hulk Hogan did." My parents bought either my brother or I (forget which) a Hulk Hogan shirt not because they were wrestling fans, or even because we were wrestling fans, but because they were good parents who knew what young boys liked. Young boys liked Hulk Hogan.

87-95: I was a Hogan hater. Not because he "sucked" or because of backstage politics, which I knew nothing about, but because he was basic (in a 'too mainstream' sense) and almost always won which made him boring to kiddie me. Oh, and also because I felt sorry for poor Mr. Wonderful getting booed out of the building in the first match I ever watched. Basically my natural contrarianism at play. For the record I also rooted against Montana, Jordan, Tyson, Duke, and the Cowboys for the same reasons. I wanted new blood. I wanted upsets. But deep down I knew all those names were the best in their business. So was Hogan. The idea of Hogan not being the GOAT never crossed my mind in any serious way, though I'm sure I trolled my Hulkamaniac friends by going to bat for Honky (or whoever) as the greatest. But in my heart of hearts I knew the only debate was over #2. Actually, not even #2. Because that was obviously Warrior. But maybe you could have a real debate over #3 between Andre and Bruno "Hero of Dads" Sammartino"

96-12: Reading the Apter Mags was a revelation. They went hard on Flair > Hogan. I had been a Hogan hater and Flair lover for years so I was all in on this hitherto unfathomable hot take. "If REAL JOURNALISTS believe it, maybe it's true..." And it just snowballed from there. The wrestling radio show I listened to was Flair > Hogan. The Internet was Flair > Hogan. Even WWF Magazine was Flair > Hogan! Flair was the darling of the tru fans...the real ones. While Hogan was the hero of rubes, children, and casuals. Flair had the best matches. Hogan had the worst. Flair made jabronies look like world beaters. Hogan made world beaters look like jabronies. Flair was a wrestler's wrestler who shed blood, sweat, and tears to get to the top. Hogan was pure plastic. Little more than a puppet whose strings were pulled by wrestling's one true visionary- Vince McMahon. Hogan was like a system player who only thrived because he had a genius calling the shots. You could have thrown half a dozen other guys in that same spot with the same results. Hogan was just the main cog in a well oiled machine. Basically, it boiled down to Flair=Good, Vince=Good, Hogan=Bad. Then I learned about Hogan's backstage political machinations. And now he had a stranglehold on the WCW Title as an old man. He was coddled by Sleazy E while poor Ric Flair was screwed over time and time again by that evil man. Now Flair was the persecuted hero and Hogan the promoter's pet. Long story short, I gave Hogan ZERO credit during this stretch for a variety of reasons, some justifiable, others silly in hindsight. And I was constantly arguing with Hulkamaniacs. For I genuinely believed I was justified in my Hogan hatred.

2013-Present: I learned to stop hating and appreciate The Hulkster for being the biggest star the business has ever seen.

Sept 2, 2023 6:55:11 GMT Kilgore said:

Would WWF become the WWF without Hogan? A question no one has ever been truly able to answer. Cowards don't want anything to do with that question.

Possibly, but unlikely.

Back on OWW in 07-08 I had many an argument with the Hulkamaniac forum owner over this very topic. See my last paragraph for more details. I put forth Slaughter & Kerry Von Erich as Hogan replacements. Others who have taken my side in this debate over the years threw out the names of Snuka, Dusty, JYD, Andre, Piper, Savage & Flair as potential Hogan replacements.

I no longer think it's that easy to just drop another wrestler in the Hogan role and count the dimes. Hogan was the right guy at the right time. All those other guys have their drawbacks. Some I realized even at the time.

But I do think most of those guys would still have drawn huge in the Northeast. The McMahons had the Northeast on lockdown. Wanna know why Superstar Graham never got that 2nd run on top, this time as a babyface? Because it wasn't necessary. Because Bobby Backlund, you know, the "boring guy who couldn't draw" sold out all the big venues in the territory time after time for nearly 6 years. You gonna tell me those names I dropped earlier wouldn't have done the same? Get outta town with that nonsense. Plus most of them would have opened up new markets for Vince.

The problems creep in a year or two down the road even in the best case scenarios (some are non-starters). Every single one of those names comes with a downside or two Hogan didn't have. To cover them all would be a lengthy post in and of itself.

Verdict: I do think most of those names would have been fine in the short term. Most of them would have done good "wrestling business" on par with Bruno, Backlund, or any other top territory guy. But they would not have been transcendent stars like Hogan turned out to be. And Vince is bound to run into big trouble a year or two down the line. "What happens then?" is an interesting question I don't have the time or desire to answer right now.

unprecedented success for an American in Japan

Forget the "could Hogan be replaced?" question. This is one I could never wrap my head around during my hardcore Hogan hating days. How did Hulk Hogan, who was universally considered The Worst by every tru fan who spent entirely too much time discussing wrestling on the internet, get over in the magical Land of the Five Star Match? I never shied away from the "would WWF have succeeded without Hogan?" question. If anything I relished it as I would pounce on any opportunity to downplay The Huckster’s manufactured successes. But I wanted no part of this one.

Also wanted no part of explaining how Hogan started not one, but two boom periods (even if he would be surpassed by Austin and others during the 2nd). Hogan made wrestling more popular than it had ever been as a good guy in WWF during the 80s. Then he did brought it back to the mainstream as a bad guy in WCW during the 90s. The second time he did it without St. Vincent. *gulp* Uh oh.

Nowadays I realize Hogan got over in Japan for the same reasons he got over everywhere- by being a jacked giant with so much charisma that you can count on one hand the # of other wrestlers in the same ballpark as The Hulkster in that department. The dude was undeniable.

Truth is Hogan really did get over everywhere he worked. He was already challenging Harley Race for the NWA Championship in the Alabama territory during his second year in the business. Nobody even talks about Alabama Hulk Hogan. Yet already he's getting big matches. This is no small feat. NWA Champ Harley Race only came to Alabama thrice in 1979. You're not going to waste a coveted appearance by the NWA Champion on a jabroni. One time Race wrestled Andre. The other two times Race wrestled a jacked up greenhorn going by the name Terry Boulder.

Can we talk about what a fucking ingrate Vincent Kennedy McMahon is? He's looking to replace Hogan with someone younger as early as 1988 (after Hogan draws the biggest card ever in 1987!). Then he successfully coups the Hogan run with Warrior in 1990, until it doesn't work, so he puts the strap back on Hogan the next year. Then by 1992 he's looking at Sid as the younger Hogan, and 1993 at Luger as the next Hogan, and Hogan is finally gone.

Damned if you, damned if you don't.

For the better part of 20 years the biggest gripe wrestling fans had was "the stale main event scene." It started with Hogan-led WCW in the mid-late 90s. If we heard it once, we heard it a thousand times. "Push the young guys! Push the cruiserweights!" Then it carried over to 02-03 WWF during the HHH Reign of Doom. Heck, The Rock was getting that reaction in some circles a few years earlier. Many in the early 2000s were also tired of The Undertaker. Then came mid-2000s TNA with Jarrett. Then Cena for a full decade. Fans inevitably get tired of the same old, same old. Kiddie me was tired of Hogan way back in 87-88!

The Sheik famously killed Detroit by staying on top for too long. Fans in the Carolinas got tired of Dusty. Even my man Jerry Lawler suffered from diminishing returns after a decade on top in Memphis. Pockets of fans and certain markets turned on Backlund in '83. 

Vince is hardly unique in the annals of sports and entertainment history when it comes to looking for a younger, sleeker, shinier new model to replace his old reliable. Dusty threatened to do it to Flair and Herd actually did. Heyman famously fired Sabu. The Packers drafted Rodgers to replace Favre. Then they drafted Love to replace Rodgers. If Love pans out I'm sure they'll draft his replacement a decade from now. It's the nature of the business. Which is why I'm not as hung up on loyalty as I was back in the 20th Century. 

Plus it's a good idea to have somebody waiting in the on deck circle just in case of emergency. What if Hogan pulls a "that doesn't work for me, brother" and bolts on no notice? What if he gets hurt? What if his Hollywood aspirations pan out? You always want to have somebody primed for the top spot just in case. Otherwise you end up like 1980 Memphis, 90 & 91 WCW, 2000 ECW, etc.

So Vince is getting accused of "same old shit" if he keeps Hogan on top for a decade or he's an ingrate if he looks to replace Hogan before he gets completely stale. Like I stated earlier, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

I wouldn't say Vince tried to replace Hogan with Savage in '88. If anything Vince gave Hogan a vehicle to become an even bigger mainstream star through No Holds Barred. As far as I know Savage was always intended to be a transitional champ rather than THE guy.

Besides, you can go even further back to '86 and the Tom Magee debacle if you really want to make that argument.
==============
*Botched the quoting and this post has gone on long enough. Time to wrap it up...

Other factors play into Hogan's "underrated" status. For starters, his many, many controversies make him an easy target. There's also the fact that most of those original Hulkamaniacs moved on decades ago. The ones who didn't would be in their 40s or 50s by now. That's old! And the discourse tends to be dominated by the young. Plus I still think there's some truth to my earlier theory of Hulkamaniacs being more prone to casual fandom. The hardcores have NEVER liked Hogan for a variety of reasons. So it's only natural they're going to downplay his successes and delight in kicking him while he's down.

I gotta say I always enjoy when newbies discover the takedown gifs of Hogan wrestling in Japan. It always blows their mind. WUTTTTTTTTTTTT he could wrestle?!? As if some teen who posts on the wrestling reddit has truly combed over Hulkster's archive of hits in the first place.

Sept 4, 2023 17:40:56 GMT Baker said:

Sept 2, 2023 6:55:11 GMT Kilgore said:

Would WWF become the WWF without Hogan? A question no one has ever been truly able to answer. Cowards don't want anything to do with that question.

Possibly, but unlikely.

Back on OWW in 07-08 I had many an argument with the Hulkamaniac forum owner over this very topic. See my last paragraph for more details. I put forth Slaughter & Kerry Von Erich as Hogan replacements. Others who have taken my side in this debate over the years threw out the names of Snuka, Dusty, JYD, Andre, Piper, Savage & Flair as potential Hogan replacements.

I'd love to evaluate some of these Alternate Universe Hogan replacements and I think others should to.

Slaughter: The degree he was over can never be overstated. Can imagine him being the guy in 1984 instead and WWF losing almost no momentum. But it's not a run meant to last long. So much of going into 1985 is the MTV connection with the Mr. T partnership and this doesn't make sense with Sarge. He doesn't have Rocky and nothing about him is MTV. The fact that Sarge drew very little after 1984 is not just because the WWF split (although that's a huge part while being a mark against Sarge), but it's the gimmick, it's Sarge as a personality. He just doesn't have the juice.

Kerry Von Erich: This is one of those intangible examples that will never make sense. Kerry Von Erich should be a better Hogan than Hogan in every regard. But he isn't. Never was. Why? Not to be mean, but I think intelligence is a huge part of it. By all accounts, a very dumb man, possibly an early example of a himbo. Despite the better build, better look, better wrestling skills, he could never come up with a winning formula like Hogan. Kerry is a product of nepotism that just happened to break out past his brothers who were too, in a territory his family ran. Hogan was a nobody from Florida who inexplicably became the biggest thing in Japan and Minnesota, with a Rocky credit under his belt, kinda on his own. And he had a reliability that Kerry would never have on top of that. Kerry is always going to be like the #1 Draft Pick, more talented than anyone his class, who gets passed up by a later pick. 

Snuka: A lot like Slaughter, so incredibly over, 1984 could have been his as the guy, WWF will be fine without Hulkamania, but it was never going to last. Couldn't talk and Vince had to be hesitant strapping the success of the company on his shoulders after literally helping move a dead body for him. 

Dusty: Vince would never do this. I have to say, I never fully understood the Dusty thing, myself. I love the working class hero aspect, but there would have never been a time where Dusty Rhodes was my guy, or would capture my childhood imagination in the way Hogan did. Vince would come to the same conclusion, albeit probably for stupid reasons (too southern/too fat), but he'd still get there and realize Dusty Rhodes isn't carrying the company to WrestleMania. 

JYD: It's funny imagining all the Hogan haters, talking about Hogan's many limitations in the ring, repping JYD instead, who could do even less. Imagine 9 WrestleManias of JYD on top. Good lord. JYD is such an interesting case. Incredibly over in mid south, like, to a rarified degree, and then over in WWF. Feel like maybe there's a universe with JYD as a second in command type ace in the WWF, but never the guy. Too limited in the ring, plus Vince's racism. And it's never going to last long because JYD was eating himself into being even more limited. 

Andre: Such an interesting case. The territory days are were Andre can be at his best, just pop in and out, never get stale, but it also feels like, man, what if he was just the guy in one of them and never left? Who's outdrawing that? Does it get stale? Maybe, but every territory was kind of stale at top, none of them were Andre the fucking Giant. This could be a really interesting alternate universe if Andre wasn't breaking down already. If it was mid-70s Andre heading into 1984, a real interesting case. But it wasn't. 

Piper: First instinct is "no way" and I'm not sure why. He's there in 1984. He's a huge part of Hogan AND Snuka being as over as they are. But he just feels like the guy that makes the guy, never the guy. Have to finally mention that WWF is a babyface territory and would certainly remain that way going national. While Piper did get over as a babyface, it just doesn't feel right, him as the top babyface taking them national. Maybe my brain is too consumed with what actually happened to picture a possible scenario for this. And even if he did, does not seem like a long run. Piper is too restless, too unpredictable. Also, in the "Doesn't Work For Me, Brother" canon, Piper refusing to lose clean to Hogan, IN 1984, is one of the more insane ones in history and would not make me confident to place that guy on top.

Flair: Too heel, and it just never worked quite as well in the north (except Philly). 

Savage: Oooh yeah. We're finally getting somewhere. Except the WWF's true rise will have to be delayed by at least a year as Savage needs the Memphis run in 1984 to get to the WWF. It's insane that Savage was a finished product was early as 1981, just kind of being obscure in his father's outlaw promotion. He was just there for the taking. And no one really noticed. Until the Memphis run. Then it became obvious that no one had more juice, possibly in the history of juice, then Macho Man Randy Savage. 

---

I think the WWF's best run without Hogan is Slaughter bridging the gap to Savage. Slaughter defeats The Iron Sheik for the WWF Title at MSG the night Hogan actually did it, is The Guy for a year+, until Savage takes over in 1985/1986. They can even do what they did with the Hogan/Backlund dynamic, have Savage come in as Slaughter's friend, Slaughter loses to someone (Piper?), but Savage avenges him while still being very new in the company. And then he's Savage. We have the benefit of knowing what that would be. Savage coming in as a heel to defeat Slaughter is cooler, but the former draws the most dimes in WWF land, I'm afraid.

Now does this combination draw as well as Hogan? Absolutely not. I mean, we've seen both Slaughter and Savage during this period. They just didn't. But Savage as the ace of WWF with that machine (fully) behind him, no Hogan lingering to once again take over, is still going to put all the territories out of business. 

Is the WWF still the WWF without Hogan? Sort of. I think it's definitely a lesser, though, which are massive points to Hogan. I mean, that's an insane list of talent right there and I think Hogan is easily beating all of them. They're just not matching his drawing power or real estate in pop culture outside of the WWF. 

Glad Kilgore took the bait. Now I'll have to play along as well. We agree on a lot. In many cases you beat me to the punch. But we do differ here and there.

Sgt. Slaughter- The best short term option. Over like rover. Him beating Sheiky Baby would have been instantly iconic. They can rematch for a few months before Sarge moves on to feuds with Volkoff and maybe Piper. But where do you go from there? You can't run Slaughter vs. Foreign Menace forever. Sure, Hogan slew the occasional evil foreigner, but he had other styles of feud as well. Will Slaughter/Orndorff get over? Slaughter/Studd? Etc.

Aesthetics matter. Especially to Vince. Slaughter had the chin, stache, and voice to be a minor celebrity, but he was also rather roly poly with a bald spot even more pronounced than Hogan's. Is he getting booked on talk shows? Getting guest spots on the A-Team? Maybe, maybe not.

But the biggest knock on Slaughter as a longterm champ is $$$. Slaughter famously left WWF in '84 over a spat about money. His wrestling career wouldn't fully recover for another 6 years. What if Slaughter and Vince have a dispute right before Wrestlemania I? What if Slaughter holds Vince hostage a la Warrior at Summerslam 91? What if Slaughter no shows entirely? It could have sank the entire ship.

Verdict- Would have one all time great year. But then what?

Kerry Von Erich- Vince wanted the Von Erichs. He wanted them bad. And Kerry was the Vinciest of the bunch. Vince aired their matches on tv and featured them in WWF Magazine. He aired a tribute to David Von Erich. He tried cutting a deal with Fritz. It all came to nothing. But what might have been...

Kerry had a better look than Hogan. He was a better worker than Hogan. But Kilgore is right. Kerry was a dumb dumb...A dumb dumb with a drug problem. Not much of a promo either.  I'm sure I argued in 07-08 that getting Kerry away from Texas would be good for him. Wrong! It would only exacerbate his problems. I'm sure he was actually protected in Texas due to being a big local celebrity. He wouldn't have that protection in New York. Kerry in NY would have been a ticking time bomb....a scandal waiting to happen.Not that he would leave his family anyway.

Verdict- Should work on paper but Kerry had too many real life demons and he was never going to leave the friendly confines of Texas anyway. 

Snuka- One of my non-starters. He's like Kerry only with all his...Kerryness already known to Vince. So Vince would never gamble everything on Snuka. And certainly not after the Nancy Argentino incident. Even before that he was known to be a loose cannon. Ray Stevens & Buddy Rogers were brought in partially to babysit Snuka. Great look. Great connection with crowds. But an even worse speaker than Kerry. No chance Vince risks it all on "Superfly."

Dusty- Kilgore nailed it with "too southern/too fat." 

JYD- I'm higher than Kilgore on the Dog as a short term solution, though I'll agree it's amusing to think of Hogan haters go to bat for the even more limited JYD. Dog would have been a continuation of the ethnic babyfaces Vince Senior had long relied on. I do think JYD could have recaptured some of that Mid South magic given the demographics of many major cities in the Northeast. But the food and drug issues are still gonna be there. Dog's drug problems were an open secret going back to his Mid South days. So, like Kerry, JYD is never going to be a long term solution. Remember, one major scandal could be all it takes to sink a company still trying to establish itself nationally. 

Andre- I....don't hate this pick. Though I'm sure I pooh poohed it back in 07-08. HE'S A GIANT! He'd been on talk shows and done guest spots on tv before. A rare case of a guy whose limited grasp of the English language doesn't really hurt him. I guess because being a Giant went a long way back in the 80s? His body is inevitably going to break down, but maybe you can get a few years out of him as THE guy before it does. The key would be in building The Next Big Thing while Andre is taking care of business on top of the card. 

Savage/Flair/Piper- I had all these guys down as non-starters if we're talking short term because I believe you'd have to build them up as heels before turning them face. They COULD work as lead babyfaces, but all three would be long term projects. They'd have to be hated before they could be loved. I don't think you could bring any of them in as the lead babyface from day one. Best case scenario here is one of them takes over the top spot after Slaughter or JYD inevitably fizzles out, or Andre’s body breaks down. Yeah, that could work. Fwiw I’d rate them Savage-Piper-Flair if we’re talking strictly the top babyface spot.

What about Paul Orndorff for a dark horse pick? Great look. Solid in ring (even though that's like the least important thing in 80s WWF). Decent mic skills. More famous as a heel, but I've seen glimpses of a great babyface in Mr. Wonderful. Wouldn't be the worst pick in the world. Especially if...

A Hoganless WWF opts for an assembly line of top guys to keep things fresh until they finally stumble upon The One. Let's say a bunch of different guys get a year on top and we get Hacksaw Jim Duggan coming off his big Mid South run as the top guy in 1987. Duggan was a gritty, patriotic brawler with good size. The 2x4 gives him a merchandising hook. Oh wait. The drug bust. Never mind. That could have sank the Titan. 

Sept 4, 2023 22:54:29 GMT Baker said:

What about Paul Orndorff for a dark horse pick? Great look. Solid in ring (even though that's like the least important thing in 80s WWF). Decent mic skills. More famous as a heel, but I've seen glimpses of a great babyface in Mr. Wonderful. Wouldn't be the worst pick in the world.

Was surprised you didn't mention him among the original candidates. The thing about Mr. Wonderful is he always exceeds expectations. Give him something small, he'll make it work better than it has any right working. Give him something big, he'll help draw 61K with Hulk Hogan.

Even though he's such a better heel, if you have Kerry Von Erich and Paul Orndorff in an open competition to be the top babyface candidate for 1984 WWF, I feel like Orndorff shocks the world and comes out on top. He'll just figure out a way to win the competition. He'll be doing the Yes Chant 30 years before Daniel Bryan, or something. Mr. Wonderful will prevail. 

But the company would be so much better with him as a heel. 

How does history change if Hulk stayed in the AWA?

Sept 4, 2023 23:16:12 GMT Kilgore said:

Sept 4, 2023 22:54:29 GMT Baker said:

What about Paul Orndorff for a dark horse pick? Great look. Solid in ring (even though that's like the least important thing in 80s WWF). Decent mic skills. More famous as a heel, but I've seen glimpses of a great babyface in Mr. Wonderful. Wouldn't be the worst pick in the world.

Was surprised you didn't mention him among the original candidates.

I don't recall anybody bringing him up! I'm sure somebody, somewhere has. Can't imagine it being a Baker Original. Just that I don't remember coming across his name for this topic before.

The thing about Mr. Wonderful is he always exceeds expectations. Give him something small, he'll make it work better than it has any right working. Give him something big, he'll help draw 61K with Hulk Hogan.

Even though he's such a better heel, if you have Kerry Von Erich and Paul Orndorff in an open competition to be the top babyface candidate for 1984 WWF, I feel like Orndorff shocks the world and comes out on top. He'll just figure out a way to win the competition. He'll be doing the Yes Chant 30 years before Daniel Bryan, or something. Mr. Wonderful will prevail. 

A wonderful synopsis of Orndorff.
==============
Just want to elaborate on my seemingly oddball Duggan pick. This is Duggan fresh off his Mid South run when Meltzer and his followers thought HJD had a good chance to become WWF's #2 babyface. This is when he was still pretty jacked and had shown up every week on tv for years with a bloodstained bandage wrapped around his head. Before he stopped caring. Before he got flabby. Before he became one of the all time champions at phoning it in. Before he became all schtick.

Duggan, like Hogan, is one of my least favorite wrestlers of all time. I don't even like Mid South Duggan. Something about that guy just gets my goat. But his connection with crowds cannot be denied. Ears don't lie. Mid South fans would have died for that man. WWF fans always popped for his lazy ass. I've seen 1993 WWF shows where he was still getting the biggest pops of the night. I've heard he was even over with crowds in dying day WCW. Now imagine how over he would have been if WWF had given him a stronger push. He wouldn't be my first choice, but if the cards fell a certain way I could see him being a temporary top guy in a Hoganless WWF 

Perhaps the greatest aspect of Hogan becoming Hogan is that if Orndorff instead became the man, kids practicing piledrives on each other would have gone up exponentially. A 1986 20/20 segment talking about the amount on injuries in American suburbs due to piledrive attempts gone wrong would be inevitable. 

Sept 5, 2023 0:05:54 GMT Kilgore said:

Perhaps the greatest aspect of Hogan becoming Hogan is that if Orndorff instead became the man, kids practicing piledrives on each other would have gone up exponentially. A 1986 20/20 segment talking about the amount on injuries in American suburbs due to piledrive attempts gone wrong would be inevitable. 

Could have been the scandal to sink the Titan.
To save face WWF makes Orndorff switch to the dreaded Noogie.

Sgt. Slaughter: Has more potential than you think. Imagine if Vince let him do the GI Joe cartoon on his watch. Vince could have worked something out with Mattel and had a natural vehicle to cater to kids. Mattel could have even done action figures and perhaps do a wrestling spin-off of the Joe cartoon to fill the LJN/Rock N' Wrestling void.  Still though he runs out of stream as the foreign invader angles would become stale. His gimmick was too one dimensional from a storyline standpoint. I still would be curious to see how much steam the Joe/Mattel partnership with the WWF could have had.

Kerry Von Erich: You guys nailed it, Kerry being let loose in New York is a disaster waiting to happen. I'm not even sure he's a better worker than Hogan. Hogan had so much charisma and was a better babyface in peril. He's a non starter for me.

JYD: I was a HUGE JYD fan, he was my number 2 behind Hogan for the majority of 1985/86. Like Kerry though has discipline issues. He didn't take care of himself and burned out not long after he came into the WWF. He had huge appeal though not only to minority fans, but because he was of a different skin color he appealed to this young fan too. I think many new fans who got caught up in the WWF wave were drawn to him because he was the only black guy doing anything worth a damn. You could have done something big with him but it would only be short term.

Dusty Rhodes: I just can't picture him in this role at all, the antitheses of what Vince looks for. I would also imagine he was still entrenched as part of the old guard in Vince Jr.'s mind due to the great relationships his dad had with both Dusty and Eddie Graham. Nope

Jimmy Snuka: My first second in command behind Hogan when we got WWF TV in late summer 1984. Spectacular in the ring with his high flying capturing imaginations but he was limited at best on the mic. In later years I found out he was bat shit crazy with the coke use, no chance in retrospect to go along with the murder accusations.

Andre The Giant: Summed up well again, had this been 1974 Andre and not 1984 Andre its a no-brainier. He still was one of the most famous celebrities on the planet but he was breaking down. With the WWF saturating the markets with more syndication Andre's mic work would have been a limiting factor too.

Roddy Piper: As much as I've touted how underrated he is I don't see it, he's a more natural heel. Plus the aesthetics of being just a "guy in a kilt" doesn't quite capture the imagination.

Ric Flair: Again just no, too "adult" for Vince's vision between the women, the booze and the blood in his matches. 

Randy Savage: He always had a heel edginess to his character. Yes Hogan used heel tactics as well but it was in ring with more of a fight fire with fire psychology to it. Savage was unhinged 24/7. Plus the look wasn't quite there.

In conclusion, Vince caught lightning in a bottle with a relatively disciplined, reliable 6'8" 300 pounder who could still make working from underneath entertaining and believable. Hogan was also approachable and had that certain charisma that had a wider appeal. Vince and his crew were never more on the ball than when making the right pick for their vehicle to take over the world.

Hogan solidified his GOAT status with me after his WM18 match with the Rock. He had that crowd eating out of his hand in yet another masterful turn. 3 of the best heel/face turns in history belong to Hogan, two of them changed the nature of the business.

Sept 5, 2023 2:00:09 GMT Shootist said:

Sgt. Slaughter: Has more potential than you think. Imagine if Vince let him do the GI Joe cartoon on his watch. I still would be curious to see how much steam the Joe/Mattel partnership with the WWF could have had.

I just can't see Vince going for it. We all know what a control freak he was.

Sept 5, 2023 2:23:08 GMT Baker said:

Sept 5, 2023 2:00:09 GMT Shootist said:

Sgt. Slaughter: Has more potential than you think. Imagine if Vince let him do the GI Joe cartoon on his watch. I still would be curious to see how much steam the Joe/Mattel partnership with the WWF could have had.

I just can't see Vince going for it. We all know what a control freak he was.

Yeah, but being the so called shrewd business man he is that would have been a golden opportunity to work a deal out. 

We already did "if not Hogan, who?" and today a Cornette clip popped into my feed asking the interesting question "if not Piper, who?"



Right away we get our first question answered. Vince allegedly straight up told a guy named Brian Solomon that Dusty would have been The Guy if not Hogan. Yet my inner skeptic is still not 100% convinced. It's all political. Dusty is now a machine endorsed deceased WWE Legend© Something tells me Vince would have had different answers 20, 25, and 30 years ago depending on who was in favor politically and who was out.

Anyway, Corny and Last run through a few names you'd expect like Flair & Orndorff. For some reason they ignored Dibiase. Savage, too, but I can see that. Mach really did need to get out of his father's umbrella and have that extended run in a mid major territory like Memphis to prove himself first. They concluded none of these guys would have been better than Piper.

But I think they ultimately answered the question. It's Michael Hayes. He's the guy. Now Corny & Last kind of pooh poohed Hayes as well. I disagree. I'll even go a step further. Hayes would have been better than Piper. Hayes was more "MTV" than Piper. I mean a big part of his gimmick was "wannabe rock star!" Hayes was at least as good as Piper on the mic. Hayes would have been more willing to the job. They claimed Hayes wasn't good enough in the ring. Again, disagree. Ring work barely mattered. Corny & Last have the wrong mindset here. Hayes was on par with Piper in the ring anyway. Plus he was already doing Piper's wrestler/manager thing. Bring Gordy in as his heavy...the Diesel to his Shawn, the Orton to his Piper, etc.

The one negative on Hayes I did agree with has to do with his reliability issues. But even then I'm not ready to throw in the towel on P.S. I mean who did more coke than Piper in the 80s? And Hayes did manage to have longish runs in Georgia, World Class, AWA, and WATTS(!) Mid South/UWF. In fact, the only place where he did have trouble was WWF. And I've heard even that had as much to do with getting on Andre's bad side as it did with missing shows. Yeah, you don't want to cross the boss, but I'm cool with Michael P.S. Hayes featuring Terry Gordy as Hogan's main nemeses during the early days of Hulkamania.

Pro Wrestling's modern era started 40 years ago today when Hulk Hogan won the WWF Championship from the Iron Sheik...



We all know the story. Hogan & WWF would soon become household names that fueled the 80s wrestling boom. Exactly 40 years later WWE would get paid a whopping $5 billion just for the right to carry their flagship show. All that success over the past four decades can be traced back to this moment right here, brother. 

About a month ago I made a post in the Random Thread chronicling my friends favorite wrestlers in 95-96. The original plan was to go back and forth to list those eras too. I scrapped that idea after realizing it would be boring. And the reason it would be boring is because the answer for literally every young wrestling fan* I knew from Earliest Memory to 7/4/93 would be Hulk Hogan. I, an obvious asshole, was the only young wrestling fan in multiple circles not to be a hardcore Hulkamaniac. 

*It was slightly more diverse among the olds. Knew a couple of "back in my day" dads who still spoke of Bruno with reverence. My own old man might have liked Ricky Steamboat a teeny tiny bit more than The Hulkster when he watched wrestling with us during our first year+ of fandom. They were his 1a and 1b. And my mom got a kick out of the Ultimate Warrior. But Hogan was the unanimous choice of the non-Baker youth. Only real question was "who's your #2?" While Hogan was nobody's absolute top guy anymore by the time 95-96 rolled around, with even my Hulkamaniac brother gravitating more towards Ahmed Johnson, The Hulkster was still Top 5 for the majority of my wrestling fan acquaintances through 95. A few (like my brother) even remained Hulkamaniacs up to the heel turn.

Baker man slowly morphing into a full blown Hogan Appreciator is such an amazing PW twist. 

Nostalgia is powerful, Hogan would probably creep back into my own top 50 favorites if we ever did a new list.

Jan 23, 2024 22:07:31 GMT Kilgore said:

Baker man slowly morphing into a full blown Hogan Appreciator is such an amazing PW twist. 

There's a subtle brilliance to Kilgore using appreciator rather than fan. Fan I would have disputed. Appreciator I cannot. Respecter also would have worked. 

This change of heart is pretty shocking. 95-13 me would be appalled at how soft I've become. But it's not wholly unprecedented. More a reversion to a previous era since I was also a grudging Hogan respecter from 87-95. I had to admit Hogan was the best in his business just as Jordan, Tyson, and Montana were the best in theirs. You could always count on me to root against those guys. But I wasn't a complete idiot. I knew greatness when I saw it. 

Mar 6, 2024 4:49:13 GMT Baker said:

Another wrestling reference on Cheers. Hulk Hogan wins again. Woody is impressed. Buzzkill Frasier tells him it’s fixed. Woody assumes Frasier means Hulk Hogan can’t have children. Classic Cheers.

Thinking about how this entire scene was a subtle nod to Hogan's pop culture reach. It was never explained who Hulk Hogan was or what exactly he did that was fixed. The writers assumed the viewer would know. And know they did because Hulk Hogan was a huge mainstream star when Cheers was the #3 rated show in all of television during the 86-87 tv season. 

Mar 6, 2024 23:30:37 GMT Baker said:

Mar 6, 2024 4:49:13 GMT Baker said:

Another wrestling reference on Cheers. Hulk Hogan wins again. Woody is impressed. Buzzkill Frasier tells him it’s fixed. Woody assumes Frasier means Hulk Hogan can’t have children. Classic Cheers.

Thinking about how this entire scene was a subtle nod to Hogan's pop culture reach. It was never explained who Hulk Hogan was or what exactly he did that was fixed. The writers assumed the viewer would know. And know they did because Hulk Hogan was a huge mainstream star when Cheers was the #3 rated show in all of television during the 86-87 tv season. 

Plus Cheers was on the same network as the A-Team and Saturday Night's Main Event which didn't hurt.

Andre was above any title. He was beloved & unbeatable. I can't see a storyline where anybody takes the title from him.

Example #303 of "Hulk Hogan is really popular"...

Back in 2022 a Kansas professor surveyed 503 people with the simple question "name a professional wrestler." Even decades after his heyday Hulk Hogan was the most frequently named wrestler. The Hulkster was followed in order by The Rock, Cena, Austin, Undertaker, Flair, and Savage.

An author named Brad Balukjian who recently wrote a wrestling book called The Six Pack piggybacked on the UK professor survey by asking 90 people himself. Hogan won again. It's been a week since I heard the full results and I don't feel like finding it again, but iirc Rock & Cena tied for second, Taker captured 5 votes, "surprisingly few" mentioned Austin, and only 2 people named a modern wrestler (Roman Reigns).