So the move as a concept was brought to my attention when I think Baker referred to the true ACE of NJPW as starting a master of the roll up gimmick. Here's some isolated thoughts. At the end of the day it's supposed to be a rasslin' match right? So in theory you should be working holds, strikes and trying to get the pin as soon as an opening presents itself. Nearfalls throughout the match for moves and moments that have NEVER finished a match. Like for real how many times are wrestlers gonna do the TAKER MANIA SHOCK LOOK OF DOOM when someone kicks out of a superplex?

A roll up of any kind is a basic ass wrestling move. It serves just as much of a purpose as the snap mare. But the workers... us fans... the narrative has a different view of that. See winning a match with a roll up does NOT count. How many times do people cut promos saying it's not a "real" win. We've been training to not expect a finish unless it's a finisher, hey maybe that's why it's called that? Obviously today 10 finishers is akin to 1 back in the day and probably -1 back in the "Jake used to REALLY pin people with it yo" days.

Why is that? Catches them off guard. Yeah, it's a wrestling match bruh. Feels like it should actually finish matches way more than it does. It's solid booking as it gives you a new way to sell the rematch. I often heard online that originally Tyler WHACK was gonna win the title with a backslide from Nigel. Shocking to see live, but would fans buy that as a title change? Despite wanting it bad, would that come across as "weak".

Even secondary finishers sometimes don't get the pop. Like how "wtf" was the double arm ddt (especially Mick's version) ending one of Austin's reigns LOL. Batista pinned Eddy with the spinebuster. PPV trivia for ya.

I dunno where I'm going with this, but am I alone in thinking the roll up deserves more REPEKT? Like even the notion of making rollup your gimmick... you mean being a good fucking wrestler? A roll up has different weights to it depending on character/locker room affiliation, but it's sold as CHEAP. It deserves more respect. As a fan I couldn't get invested in say Shelton pinning HHH with a school boy because I've been indoctrinated to think it's a fluke. But it shouldn't be...

Anyways whatever I went to pluto. Favorite fruit roll up flavor? Loved that HBK/Jericho (or should it be HBK/Y2J?) finish. I think that was his behind grapple finisher (SPECIAL) in No Mercy. MORE TABLE TRIVIA DOES ANYONE WANT A RETURN?

Thread.

I'm not anti-rollup. How can I be after growing up on all those Bret, Flair, and Steamboat classics? The rollup has its place in wrestling. Gotta go now but I'll be back later for more rollup chatter.

I've always respected the rollup. As you say, it's a pure wrestling move. Grappling at its finest. Quite frankly, there are not enough rollup finishes in modern wrestling.

Time to lose all credibility with @ness. You know who agrees with me? Zack Sabre Jr. For him, submissions are the ultimate display of pro-wrestling superiority, but rollups are a close second. Not an uncouth kick to the head, or thuggishly dropping someone on the head. It's the rollups and the submission holds that make pro-wrestling a high art.

I've namedropped Zack Sabre Jr. and I'm going to continue to be on brand by namedropping NJPW, a company where many wrestlers have signature rollups they seldom use. Hiromu has one, called the Hiromu Roll. Goto has the Goto Special. Okada has two. Naito has two. ZSJ has at least two, the European Clutch and the O'Connor Roll. SANADA uses the European Clutch, which he stole from ZSJ. Tanahashi doesn't have a special rollup, he just uses the basic ones. Just one of many reasons why NJPW is the best wrestling.

True or false.

If you can name drop something like a sunset flip, does that cross the wrestling nerd criteria? Like knowing what that is stops you from being a casual anything right?

- Wants a thing

Emp be like I know a guy

- Not like that

Why? Because it won't be over if everyone's doing it. But I suppose it'd be hard to sell the concept of luck and timing if roll ups were super common.

Being the only guy doing it can actually be a gimmick.

Can a specific roll up get "over"? Didn't Danielson have a "Mr. Small Package" moniker? The more I think of neat pinning combination the more I wanna just puke in my mouth. Thinking about a unique leg bridge and I'm like no... anyone but him. "Name someone modern who ever did an La Magistral cradle and it's *pukes* him. This is the worst year ever.

Also if you know what a la Magistral cradle is you either a wrestling geek or put time into wrestling vidya. Wonder how many moves got "over" in video games.

"HE'S GOT THE TIGHTS" is the roll up for HEELS.

Bret/Flair/Steamboat must have trained my brain to accept roll ups. A roll up finish, I never blink an eye to. Maybe I'll be a little underwhelmed. Maybe. But it's acceptable. 

A bad finishing move, though, I'm offended. I'm irked, man. How dare you end a match that way? I'm hot under the collar.

Guess that's why Bret's the goat. Look at his catalog of classics. So many match finishes.

But moving after him as a fan it always felt like it was hard to accept it because of how often they called it "lucky" on screen. Wonder if what you grew up on dictates your feelings to the roll up. At least for the bulk of my time it always felt hard to accept a roll up as a legit win. I can't explain why other than blame the commentators and promos.

Jan 12, 2024 0:43:12 GMT @ness said:

Guess that's why Bret's the goat. Look at his catalog of classics. So many match finishes.

Last time the aborted Bret vs. Hogan program came up we were trying to figure out what a Bret Hart win could have possibly looked like (Hogan isn't giving up to the Sharpshooter!) and this conversation just makes it more obvious that Bret Hart would have rolled that bald, leathery motherfucker up (Hogan kicking out at 3.1).

I almost jumped the gun and called Bret "the undisputed master of rollups." But I was lucky enough to dispute my own claim before clicking "Create Post." Bret was pretty great at rollups tho. And it makes sense! Given his whole schtick was "world's greatest technical wrestler."

Randy Savage is another quality rollup artist. Not surprising he had great matches with the Big 3 of Bret/Flair/Steamboat all ending in rollups.

*The reason I can't go with Bret as Rollup King is because he learned everything he knew from Owen! Seriously though. Owen did all my favorite rollups- the Owen Hart Pin #1, Owen Hart Pin #2, and Owen Hart Pin #3. I was also a big Crucifix guy. Owen probably invented that too. Here is the Owen Hart Pin Jericho & Michaels stole for the aforementioned WM 19 finish...



Another Owen Hart Pin he used to beat Jannetty on the 1/15/96 Raw. You can find the footage on Instagram but my Gif making site wasn't cooperating. And I'll look for a clip of the 3rd Owen Hart pin tomorrow. Hey Davey Boy & Bret, what do you guys think about Owen being Master of the Rollup?


==================
The reason I pooh poohed those recent Tanahashi finishes is not because I am an anti-rollup. Rollups, like most everything else, have their place in wrestling. But because...

1. They came in the midst of Guerrero/Malenko rollup sequences. When was the last time you saw anybody pinned in the middle of one of them? It's anticlimactic. 
2. Same finish basic finish in high profile matches on back to back nights is just lazy.
3. He beat a technical wizard in one of those matches despite nobody in the world thinking Tanahashi is a better technician than ZSJ. It just doesn't make sense.

Crucifix.... Man that takes me back to WWF war zone. Lotta moves rarely seen like that.

Crucifix = Davey Boy Smith in my book. He was using it before Owen anyway.

Roll-ups are perfectly fine to me. As the line goes, the name on the marquee is wrestling and roll-ups give pro wrestling that link to the amateur style. Not everything has to be a Tiger Driver '91 to finish a match.