… through all the years had fans chose the Main Events at Wrestlemania?

Baker?

Any and everyone else with input I’m curious.

My initial guesses for a few…

I don’t think WM1 changes at all.

I’m not sure about WM2.

I’m 100% sure that WM3 doesn’t change.

Honestly 19 I'd be okay with Hogan/Vince or Rock/Austin closing. The whole show feels like it was the original "every match is a main event!" Mania.

23 really should've gone to Taker/Dave, but they didn't seem confident in it and they of course ended up doing pretty good business in the midcard. I'm not a stickler for Rumble winner always closing, but if they're winning the belt in the match anyways... they probably should.

Let me preface this by saying it's hard to predict what fans would have wanted for the first 12-13 or so because I wasn't plugged into the wider fan community. Nobody really was. The newsletter writers & readers who have dominated the discourse ever since only constituted a minuscule fraction of the fanbase. A bunch of nerds who would have preferred Dynamite Kid main eventing 'Mania over Hulk Hogan aren't exactly in tune with your average fan. Point of this preface is to warn you that at least half of what follows is bullshit. But fun bullshit!

1 probably stays the same. Needed someone like T to draw casual eyeballs to this curiosity.
2 I'm sure most people were honestly fine with Hogan getting revenge on the fatty who squashed him (Bundy). But Hogan going over Piper or Orndorff looks sexier to modern eyes. You'd just have to mess with the timeline in order to get Orndorff in the role.
3 stays
4 you could maybe do the Hogan/Andre rubber match with Hogan going over or have Andre giving the belt to Teddy stick and go with Hogan/Dibiase for the belt where EVERYBODY knows The Hulkster is going over. But honestly the tournament worked for me and singlehandedly made me a tournament mark for decades. See also: March Madness.
5 & 6 stay as is
7 should have been Hogan getting his win back from Warrior
8 should have been Hogan beating Flair
9 stays. Don't believe the weird Bret Hart fetishists. Contrary to what these revisionist historians would have you believe, the overwhelming majority of fans were cool with Hogan leaving the show he made famous with the belt he made famous. All was again as it should be in WWFland.
10 Luger beats Yoko to FINISH THE STORY
11 maybe swap Diesel/HBK with LT/BBB just to give the 'real wrestlers' the main event rub. Still a midcard main event, but that's where we were at the time.
12 stays
13 should have been Bret getting his win back over Michaels
14 stays
15 maybe you can hold off a month to do Austin/McMahon here, but it's not essential
16 should have been Rock beating HHH clean. Foley beating HHH also would have been better, and more preferred by the fans, than what we got.
17 stays
18 should not have been HHH/Jericho. Hogan/Austin in an 80s vs. 90s battle is ideal. Rock/Hogan works if Austin doesn't want to play ball.
19 I'm open to Hogan/Vince closing
20 & 21 are fine
22 & 23 right matches, wrong finishes. The vast majority of fans would have had HHH go over Cena and HBK go over Cena. Can't agree with Ness on Taker/Batista closing 23 just because nobody thought that match would turn out as well as it did. Only with the benefit of hindsight does it work.
24 feel like most fans would have preferred HBK/Flair closing, though Taker/Edge was fine
25 Taker/HBK should have closed over HHH/Orton
40 should be Cody going over Reigns. No need for two Lugerings in one lifetime.

You think the fans would have wanted Hogan over Flair? Or Hogan over Warrior? I know he was still the Hulkster but fans were cooling down a little by that point.

You’re more than likely right because fans back then were far more open to guys just dominating for a decade straight.

Feb 5, 2024 22:12:33 GMT UT said:

You think the fans would have wanted Hogan over Flair? Or Hogan over Warrior? I know he was still the Hulkster but fans were cooling down a little by that point.

You’re more than likely right because fans back then were far more open to guys just dominating for a decade straight.

Hogan over Flair in 1992 is an absolute lock. Flair was the outsider heel. Hogan was the already legendary longtime company babyface. Only assholes like me would have been pulling for Flair over The Hulkster. Hogan/Warrior is a little trickier, but I absolutely think that's the biggest match they could have run in '91, and Hogan getting his win back makes sense on multiple levels. 

As for your last sentence, I was even going to include in my disclaimer something like "not much really needs to change for the early ones because fans were a lot more malleable in the 80s & 90s." 

Feb 5, 2024 22:17:12 GMT Baker said:

Feb 5, 2024 22:12:33 GMT UT said:

You think the fans would have wanted Hogan over Flair? Or Hogan over Warrior? I know he was still the Hulkster but fans were cooling down a little by that point.

You’re more than likely right because fans back then were far more open to guys just dominating for a decade straight.

Hogan over Flair in 1992 is an absolute lock. Flair was the outsider heel. Hogan was the homegrown babyface. Only assholes like me would have been pulling for Flair over The Hulkster. Hogan/Warrior is a little trickier, but I absolutely think that's the biggest match they could have put on in '91, and Hogan getting his win back makes sense on multiple levels. 

As for your last sentence, I was even going to include in my disclaimer something like "not much really needs to change because fans were a lot more malleable in the 80s & 90s." 

There is that but I have to believe there’s also angles that were occurring or wrestlers coming up that had fans had more of an outlet or way to “band together” they would have wanted to see more than some of what we got.

One that initially sprang to mind is Bret/Owen at one of any of the Manias… yea we got it as the opener of X but there would have been such a huge swell of support that it wasn’t headlining a Mania over the years.

Austin/McMahon is another one though I can excuse it never happening because as entertaining of a character he could be on screen as fool to Austin… he was never truly a wrestler.

Rock/HHH which you mentioned is another one that “deserved” that spot.

Kane/Taker is another one. Though I’m not sure when it would have made the most sense.

I guess this depends on where you take that decision from.

IV
I'm sure the majority of fans on the night itself wanted Hogan/DiBiase in the tournament final to see their hero beat that evil, plastic surgery paying moneyman who had stolen the belt from the Hulkster.

VII
Pre-Rumble 1991, fans may have chosen Hogan/Warrior II, especially given how Hogan kicked out at 3.1 the year before.

X
On the night itself, the fans definitely wanted Lex to beat Yoko in the opening title match, which would have made the main event Bret/Lex.

XV
Fans may have wanted the triple threat that was mooted at the time, Austin/Rock/Mankind. Foley had been so intertwined with Rock and Vince that it made complete sense, which is why, after deciding to go the singles route, they found a way to add him as referee.

2000
Clearly fans would've picked Triple H/Rock in a singles. If Austin's neck had been good enough to do the Backlash finish a month prior, this might have happened.

------------------

I've got some vague memory of someone (maybe Cornette) talking about territories have fan voted nights on occasion and matches between the top faces could win those because it was such a rarity for fans then. Thinking of that, if you had done a poll for who Hogan should defend the title against at Mania 2, prior to the angle with Bundy injuring him which would make the fans want to see the revenge, then it may have been face Andre that won it.

I forgot about Strobe. Shame on me. I just don’t come down here often.

I love the Hogan/Dibiase one though. That’s a great one.

I: Maybe tweak it to a six man which the WWF rarely did back then by including Snuka and Orton.

II: I'm with Bake, Bundy as the big bad new threat to Hogan was great but an earlier Orndorff turn would have been just as hot. Anything Hogan touched at this time was gold.

III: Lol, no, and no Savage/Steamboat didn't steal the show either.

IV: Hogan getting the belt back from Andre

V: no change

VI: no change

VII: Yep, Warrior Hogan II at the LA Coliseum.

VIII: Flair/Hogan

IX: Tricky one, Hogan's 1993 comeback never felt right with me. I was fully on the Bret train at this point and was fine with what was booked. In hindsight maybe squeeze the juice out of Hogan/Yoko?

X: Based on the Royal Rumble try another face vs face in Luger vs Bret with Bret going over champ Luger.

XI: Still don't have a feel for this era, I guess people were fine with Diesel/Shawn?

XII: perfect

XIII: Bret/Shawn II

XIV: In an alternate universe Austin/Bret to kick off the Stone Cold Era.

XV: no change

2000: H/Rock or H/Foley singles

X-7: no change

X-8: Rock/Hogan, if the dweebs would have had more influence at this time though they would have been on Austin to go up against Hogan. Imagine Austin getting harassed by smark chants at this time, lol.

X-9: Rock/Austin or Hogan/Vince

XX: no change

didn't care enough about 21-23

24: Shawn/Flair

25: Shawn/Taker

26: no change

27: Taker/H

30: Going by the fans it would have been Bryan/Orton singles if they pulled the trigger on Bryan at the Rumble? Maybe rewrite history and have H be the champ and have Bryan beat him?

39: Should have had Cody finish his contrived story and beat Reigns. Then we wouldn't be exposed to this idiocy going on right now with numbskulls wanting Cody over Rock.

Interesting that there’s been two mentions of Bret/Shawn at 13 but that was also such a monster turning point for Austin and we wouldn’t have gotten that.

Feb 6, 2024 3:15:29 GMT UT said:

Interesting that there’s been two mentions of Bret/Shawn at 13 but that was also such a monster turning point for Austin and we wouldn’t have gotten that.

Shawn is forced to put over Bret for the title at 'Mania. Karma catches up with Shawn trying to fake injuries to avoid Bret and he gets his back "injured" while losing to Bret. Perfect excuse for him to take time off and justify his loss. Bret and Austin are off and running just slightly later than what really happened building to XIV.

Feb 6, 2024 3:23:31 GMT Shootist said:

Feb 6, 2024 3:15:29 GMT UT said:

Interesting that there’s been two mentions of Bret/Shawn at 13 but that was also such a monster turning point for Austin and we wouldn’t have gotten that.

Shawn is forced to put over Bret for the title at 'Mania. Karma catches up with Shawn trying to fake injuries to avoid Bret and he gets his back "injured" while losing to Bret. Perfect excuse for him to take time off and justify his loss. Bret and Austin are off and running just slightly later than what really happened building to XIV.

Oh I don’t disagree with and it makes sense but it’d be a sacrifice. Obviously there was no way to know what you’re missing going with Bret/Shawn 2.

I don’t think you trade Stone Cold Steve Austin’s career turning point for Bret Hart getting his revenge on Shawn Michaels. No thanks on that Canadian. Hell yeah to everything that followed with Stone Cold.

If only somebody could fish up some old Observers from the mid 80s - early 90s because you could gleam so much. I'd imagine guys like Ricky Steamboat, Randy Savage, Bret, Perfect, Dibiase, Terry Taylor would have been fawned over and they would have had coniptions over Warrior and Hogan.

Since I've been a member of the IWC...

2002 - Believe it or not, HHH was a massive internet darling. So much so, fans were genuinely disappointed he didn't show up at Vengeance 2001 despite appearing on the poster. Jericho rated quite highly as well as you could imagine, but fans were never into that match, especially when it was more like a Steph/HHH feud. There was definitely a push for Hogan/Austin, but I think even HHH/Hogan with the idea of doing a double turn would have sat well with smarks.

2003 - What a change a year makes, hey? By this point, fans couldn't stand Hunter and widely believed that if you stepped into a program with him you were going to get buried. The SmackDown Six were hot, but fans hadn't given up on RVD either and would have been down for a RVD/HBK match for the title. Like you said Ness, this is a show that had several main events, and I think Austin/Rock would have been the most accepted. Fans had really come around on Hollywood Rock and were beyond disappointed that Austin didn't turn up at RAW X, despite all the controversy.

2004 - If anything, the smarks were beyond catered to with the Benoit/Eddie ending. There's definitely a contingent who would have been happy with Benoit beating Brock and HBK beating HHH leading to Orton avenging Hunter at SummerSlam.

2005 - 2004 had been so miserable, that I think fans were fine with the WWE developing 'new stars' and crowning Batista and Cena on the night.

2006 - This may have only been my neck of the woods, but the most popular angle at that time was Matt Hardy/Edge. The final match never quite sat right and there was this feeling that the WWE were going to have a proper send off at Wrestlemania. In the end, neither Edge nor Matt Hardy featured in the main event and it was a dreaded Cena/HHH match. In the wash-up, it was universally agreed that Hunter should have won and reformed DX with Shawn, leading to Cena going full Corporate heel.

2007 - Cena was still beyond played out at this point, but fans had been so beaten down, I don't think there was much in the way of an alternative. I think if you gave fans the option, Taker/HBK taking that Rumble finish and going straight into a Wrestlemania program would have been appreciated.

2008 - There was a brief moment in January where Jeff Hardy got insanely hot and fans were all for a title reign. I think if you went Cena/Orton at Mania, had Orton go over but Jeff cashed in, the fans would have been all over it. The last thing they wanted was HHH getting involved.

2009 - This was peak Randy Orton and fans were ready for him to finally get his big Wrestlemania win, only for Hunter to pull the ball away. Even so, Undertaker/HBK was the match fans were fanging for. They'd teased it for a solid two years by this point and it lived up to every expectation.

2010 - A real end of an era Wrestlemania and I don't think fans were upset at all with HBK/Taker II. I don't recall a lot of love for Batista/Cena II, so I could see an argument for Kofi Kingston/Sheamus (as crazy as that sounds) since the fans were behind Kofi after his feud with Randy.

2011 - I can't remember how exactly, but right around this time, a lot of internet fans had gotten behind John Morrison and wanted him to main event Wrestlemania. I'm not entirely sure who they wanted it to be against, but I doubt they would have been upset with CM Punk as his opponent.

2012 - Rock/Cena would have to step aside for CM Punk w/Colt Cabana, Kings of Wrestling, Ace Steel vs. Triple H w/The Kliq - Career vs. Career.

2013 - Fans were not happy that Punk didn't get to be the third wheel in Cena/Rock.

2014 - Similar to Wrestlemania XX, this played out better than anticipated. Maybe just have Punk interfere in the main event just to send it over the edge.

2015 - Daniel Bryan vs. Brock Lesnar and there would be no substitutions.

2016 - Despite coming off an awful feud with Bray Wyatt, fans got into Dean Ambrose as the plucky underdog and were willing to see him win the title. HHH vs. Ambrose would have been fine, anyone but Roman.

2017 - This was the year the IWC was begging for more NXT call-ups. If you had to pick a match, it would have been Kevin Owens vs. Chris Jericho but for the title.

2018 - Anything other than Brock/Roman again. Fans were not into Brock holding the title for over a year and barely turning up, so it could be something out there like Kevin Owens/Finn Balor. Or alternatively you could have that lackluster AJ/Nakamura match.

2019 - The IWC didn't want Charlotte anywhere near the match and hated how she was inserted in. They just wanted Becky/Ronda and they didn't want the show to run a million hours. Fair enough too, otherwise they were fairly happy with the show.

2020 - Fans were upset that Goldberg beat Bray for the title, leading to a Goldberg/Roman match, otherwise fans were 'fine' with Drew getting his Mania moment over Brock.

2021 - Fans were upset with Edge/Roman, but were more than happy that Bryan was thrown into the mix. No notes.

2022 - Not Brock/Roman again! The alternatives from memory were Riddle/Roman or Big E/Roman, not exactly Wrestlemania calibre bouts.

2023 - Fans were arguing till the day of that Cody didn't deserve the spot and Sami Zayn should have been shoe-horned in despite being a comedic relief character for the better part of two years. It kind of makes this whole Cody/Rock drama kind of funny because now they're scrambling to defend Cody and walk-back a lot of the critiques they made of him.

Feb 6, 2024 3:15:29 GMT UT said:

Interesting that there’s been two mentions of Bret/Shawn at 13 but that was also such a monster turning point for Austin and we wouldn’t have gotten that.

Good point. That's the problem with changing history. The butterfly effect can be vast. But I do think Bret/Shawn is what the fans would have wanted going into the show. So maybe Shawn losing his smile was actually a good thing?

Feb 6, 2024 15:14:25 GMT Big Pete said:

2002 - Believe it or not, HHH was a massive internet darling. So much so, fans were genuinely disappointed he didn't show up at Vengeance 2001 despite appearing on the poster.

2008 - There was a brief moment in January where Jeff Hardy got insanely hot and fans were all for a title reign. 

Can confirm. My friends and I were among those bummed out by HHH not returning at Vengeance.

Your bit about 80s Observer readers fawning over the smaller workrate guys and pooh poohing the actual stars like Hogan & Warrior is spot on. BUT I think 80s Observer readers were an extreme outlier. A niche within a niche. Your average WWF fan was a Hulkamaniac who just wanted to see the good guys win. Even in the late 90s there was a teeny tiny segment of the fanbase who couldn't understand why Taka Michinoku wasn't main eventing over Austin. I can even pinpoint them to an extent! They were a DVDVR adjacent clique called the Workrate Cru. 

Man could you imagine if he did show up? Would he have just taken Booker's place in costing Austin the title? Jericho would somehow be even more of an afterthought. Really should've gone with Angle like they wanted.

bUt We nEEd stARs.

And you still do...

Feb 6, 2024 21:18:47 GMT @ness said:

Man could you imagine if he did show up? Would he have just taken Booker's place in costing Austin the title? Jericho would somehow be even more of an afterthought. Really should've gone with Angle like they wanted.

bUt We nEEd stARs.

And you still do...

Vince and Booker interfere in the match. Booker clubs Austin from behind with the belt, but Austin knocks over the referee. Booker is laying the boots into Austin, hits Austin with the Scissors Kick, does the spinaroonie and right before he can feel himself...

IT'S TIME TO PLAY THE GAME

HHH makes his way to ring, punches Vince on the way down for good measure before making it into the ring. Booker T charges in, spinebuster and Booker T is done for the night. Jericho goes looking for his back elbow, dodged, pedigree. HHH then admires the belt for a second while Austin makes his way to his feet. Austin isn't sure what to make of it, until whammo with the belt, HHH cross chops both guys and makes his way backstage. RVD confronts, tells him that's not cool and HHH throws him into a bottomless pit.

Jericho slowly puts himself on top of an unconcious Jericho, the referee counts a dramatic pin and that's how Jericho becomes champion, all at the hands of HHH!

At least I would have enjoyed it in the moment. :lol:

Your bit about 80s Observer readers fawning over the smaller workrate guys and pooh poohing the actual stars like Hogan & Warrior is spot on. BUT I think 80s Observer readers were an extreme outlier. A niche within a niche. Your average WWF fan was a Hulkamaniac who just wanted to see the good guys win. Even in the late 90s there was a teeny tiny segment of the fanbase who couldn't understand why Taka Michinoku wasn't main eventing over Austin. I can even pinpoint them to an extent! They were a DVDVR adjacent clique called the Workrate Cru.

Good point, the audience has definitely changed over time. Did you notice a shift at all during the New Generation era? There's definitely been one recently with the core WWE audience being receptive to the WWE, even when the product has barely improved since Vince lost control.

Feb 6, 2024 16:48:30 GMT Baker said:

Feb 6, 2024 3:15:29 GMT UT said:

Interesting that there’s been two mentions of Bret/Shawn at 13 but that was also such a monster turning point for Austin and we wouldn’t have gotten that.

Good point. That's the problem with changing history. The butterfly effect can be vast. But I do think Bret/Shawn is what the fans would have wanted going into the show. So maybe Shawn losing his smile was actually a good thing?

Feb 6, 2024 15:14:25 GMT Big Pete said:

2002 - Believe it or not, HHH was a massive internet darling. So much so, fans were genuinely disappointed he didn't show up at Vengeance 2001 despite appearing on the poster.

2008 - There was a brief moment in January where Jeff Hardy got insanely hot and fans were all for a title reign. 

Can confirm. My friends and I were among those bummed out by HHH not returning at Vengeance.

Your bit about 80s Observer readers fawning over the smaller workrate guys and pooh poohing the actual stars like Hogan & Warrior is spot on. BUT I think 80s Observer readers were an extreme outlier. A niche within a niche. Your average WWF fan was a Hulkamaniac who just wanted to see the good guys win. Even in the late 90s there was a teeny tiny segment of the fanbase who couldn't understand why Taka Michinoku wasn't main eventing over Austin. I can even pinpoint them to an extent! They were a DVDVR adjacent clique called the Workrate Cru. 

So what you’re saying is … maybe fans don’t always know what’s best?

UT  I think it can be wise for promoters not to give fans everything they want.

Big Pete  Can assure you my friends and I would have marked out if HHH returned at Vengeance 2001 to Pedigree all four pretenders and then pin them all with one finger apiece to become the first Undisputed Champion. Would have been totally believable, totally cool.

Feb 7, 2024 12:11:12 GMT Big Pete said:

Good point, the audience has definitely changed over time. Did you notice a shift at all during the New Generation era? There's definitely been one recently with the core WWE audience being receptive to the WWE, even when the product has barely improved since Vince lost control.

Started noticing the shift only towards the tail end of the New Generation. Mid-late 96 to be precise. First when fans started rooting for the dastardly NWO. Then it really picked up when fans started rooting for Austin/booing Bret (and Michaels). Think my first major wakeup call that things had changed came listening to the local wrestling radio show during the build to Survivor Series 96 where caller after caller was adamant that Austin should beat Bret. This blew my mind. It flew in the face of everything I thought I knew about wrestling. The returning hero ALWAYS vanquished the evil bad guy! That was Pro Wrestling 101. But these fans didn't want that. They wanted something different. Up to that point any "bizarro world" reactions I simply dismissed as a one off anomaly, assuming I noticed it in the first place. But it just snowballed from there. The worse Austin got, the more the fans cheered him. And I'm sure it was the same way with the NWO over in Dubbya Cee Dubbya. Vader attacking Gorilla in January 96 was treated as the worst thing to ever happen in the history of the universe. Less than two years later Austin stunning Vince was greeted with thunderous applause. 96-97 is when the fanbase really started changing imo. First they embraced the jerks. They would embrace other types of wrestlers in the years that followed, most often the hard working vet, usually undersized, who was "held back," but the days of just going along with the promoter's pet was over. Just ask John Cena!

Don't mean to sound condescending here, but I really feel like you had to live through the 80s-mid 90s to fully appreciate how different the fanbase was. It was just a completely different mindset. Sometimes I forget this myself and have to take a step back. It was all about the time tested good guy vs. bad guy template, with the overwhelming majority of fans just wanting to see their good guy heroes vanquish the villains. "Hogan Must Pose" was a thing for so long because it worked. Then you had a teeny tiny segment of contrarian assholes like me who rooted for the heels. I feel like "Workrate Fans" were even smaller in number than heel fans. And I doubt if more than 1% of the audience cared about rewarding wrestlers who were "held back." The fan brain just didn't work like that back then. Wrestlers weren't "held back" by booking. They were losers because they sucked. Doesn't matter the territory. That was the mindset of your average US fan up until the rise of the internet changed the game. The 1996 PWI Almanac even touched on this in their Japanese Wrestling section. Paraphrasing, but it went something like "American fans are more invested in the outcome of matches. They want to see their good guy heroes vanquish the dastardly villains. Whereas Japanese fans care more about the quality of the match itself rather than the result."

Rogue crowds were few and far between prior to 1996. The few I can think of are more NWA/WCW than WWF, and often confined to regular venues which seem prone to attracting a more “smarky" audience.

I'd want Hogan/Sammartino for 1. No heel Bruno in NY or anything, just a passing of the torch. Throw in dumb David @ ringside since Vince was insistent on it. But we'd probably either get Hogan/T, Hogan/Piper or the match as it originally happened.

I doubt the fans would want Bundy for 2 but this is the golden era so my smark sensibilities could be clouding. I dunno either, Hogan didn't have a ton of options at this time. I think Piper was post-injury but that'd be my choice otherwise. Also thinking most fans would prefer to hold the event in either LA or Chicago and not that weird 3-in-1 venue deal.

3 remains the same.

7 sucked. Slaughter turned heel 5+ years too late (could have worked nicely for II) and it was just a cheap, lazy, overly topical + nationalistic grab. It'd be cool to push Jake Roberts more beforehand and give him what could have been an all-time Mania feud w/Huck. A Warrior rematch is the very likely answer though.

Was 8 w/Sid? That sucked, too. This one is tough. Was Bret ready yet? Hogan/Hart should have happened at some point, even if Hitman has to eat a pin early.

IX - Hart wins clean over Yoko. Hogan stays tagging w/Beef Buddy Supreme, or we get a Hart/Hogan rematch w/Hitman getting his comeuppance (in a world where water is dry and grass is blue)

Obviously 12 needs Diesel/HBK, but you could argue also that Bret could + would be there instead if not booked with comedy acts + glorified jobbers beforehand (no disrespect to Backlund). Maybe even a triple threat if they set it up properly?

HHH/Rock for 2000, easily. I still want the heel Trips win personally, but it'd probably be Rocky going over. Toss Foley against Show instead, gimmick that if need be.

Do a better, simpler build w/no Debra for X-7. Austin stunners Vince after cracking open cold ones, faking the heel turn alliance on Rock. I dunno why they didn't do this. If you turn Austin heel (in Texas, no less) at least have a plan + make it count.

X-8 should have closed out with Huckster vs Rocky.

There's several more but those are the big ones that immediately crossed my mind. I'll likely come back to this later.

Addendum: Now that I think about it more, fans were sick of Hogan by '93. Warrior takes that spot before blowing himself out of the Federation, so we probably get Warrior vs Hart/Yoko/Sid instead.

I had the thought again of "what the fuck would they have done if Austin's neck gave out in early 1998?" and it made me think of the more general question of "what would they have done if the challenger at Mania could not make the show?" and, rather than make a new thread, thought I would just add it to this "what if?" Mania thread.

Obviously it depends on when the incident taking them out occurred but that can be part of the discussion as well. If the guy breaks his leg slipping backstage early on the day, then a different solution is required (since they have the time to do a story) than if they break their leg in Feb.

I think XIV is one of the more significant. They needed Austin badly. If Austin's neck gives out just before the Rumble, what do you do? Who is winning the Rumble? You've got the Tyson deal set up. Taker and Kane story in full swing.

It has to be Shamrock, doesn't it? Even though they just ran him against HBK in December. He is the #3 babyface after Austin and Taker. He has the UFC background to clash well with boxer Tyson. World's Most Dangerous Man vs. Baddest Man on the Planet, with champion HBK as the sidenote.

Shamrock was definitely not ready for the top spot, so I could see a panic of doing some sort of HBK/Taker/Kane triple threat but how does Tyson work with that?

Don't think there was anyone from WCW that they could poach in that period that would work either.

For VI, if Warrior is out the night after the Rumble say, I could see trying to move the Hogan/Savage Main Event with Tyson Douglas as ref back 5-6 weeks but that may not be feasible.

I think Hogan has to stay champion if Warrior is out and you just run him against a heel. Hogan/Perfect was finishing up (it had not done amazing business and the blow-off would be on the April SNME) so you could have Hogan be the first to pin Perfect in the main.

Earthquake was being heated up as Bravo's pal against Warrior and starting to get involved with Hogan, setting him up for the big summer feud. Do you just jump the gun and run Hogan/Quake? Do you have to protect Quake in the finish of the Mania main? Because who else is Hogan going to feud with afterwards? 1990 was weak for top heels.

III seems like an easy fix. It has even been talked about that the reason they didn't give Orndorff a match on the show was in case Andre could not make the event. Would have impacted the number of tickets sold.

Hogan/Orndorff had been a huge feud in 1986 (I think Hogan's 2nd biggest house show drawing feud behind Savage 1989) and got 60k to the Big Event in Canada before blowing it off in the cage on Jan 3 SNME. Hard to see them being able to draw an even bigger stadium crowd in March 1987.

I'll leave it there for now.

Oct 31, 2024 7:06:42 GMT Strobe said:

I had the thought again of "what the fuck would they have done if Austin's neck gave out in early 1998?" and it made me think of the more general question of "what would they have done if the challenger at Mania could not make the show?" and, rather than make a new thread, thought I would just add it to this "what if?" Mania thread.

Obviously it depends on when the incident taking them out occurred but that can be part of the discussion as well. If the guy breaks his leg slipping backstage early on the day, then a different solution is required (since they have the time to do a story) than if they break their leg in Feb.

I think XIV is one of the more significant. They needed Austin badly. If Austin's neck gives out just before the Rumble, what do you do? Who is winning the Rumble? You've got the Tyson deal set up. Taker and Kane story in full swing.

It has to be Shamrock, doesn't it? Even though they just ran him against HBK in December. He is the #3 babyface after Austin and Taker. He has the UFC background to clash well with boxer Tyson. World's Most Dangerous Man vs. Baddest Man on the Planet, with champion HBK as the sidenote.

Shamrock was definitely not ready for the top spot, so I could see a panic of doing some sort of HBK/Taker/Kane triple threat but how does Tyson work with that?

Don't think there was anyone from WCW that they could poach in that period that would work either.

I have long believed the best audible in this scenario, and it's chaotic, and solves zero long term problems, is to literally run Shamrock vs. Tyson. What that looks like, who can say. Shamrock certainly had the training to construct a worked-shoot match against Tyson, but no one wants that yet in 1998. Maybe they find some Brawl for All loophole and literally do it as a shoot somehow (even with Tyson's suspension). But it's almost definitely a work. While I can't predict what that would be or look like, I can predict that it would be MONEY, because that would be much of the appeal with no one knowing whether it was going to be a work or shoot until it was happening in front of them (except Ken, Mike and Vince). That's a monster buyrate, and that's what Vince needed more than anything.

As for Shawn, he'd move down into midshow title defense against someone, Owen probably, which sets up longterm problems because Shawn is out of his mind, and now seriously injured on top of that, and he's leaving WrestleMania as the champion. Whatever momentum gained from this WM14 is tough to build on with a novelty match, essentially, being the major draw. The gamble is that Shamrock pulls it off (as a work or shoot, again no idea what this would actually be, just Shamrock leaving more over than he entered) and then the Michaels rematch, whenever, becomes a countdown to Michaels death via Shamrock. Shamrock, fresh off a victory against Mike fucking Tyson, challenging Michaels at his most hated, Shamrock will never be more over in his life. And the match against Michaels becomes an execution that the entire audience can't wait to witness. 

Or, WM9 style, have Shamrock challenge Michaels right after the Tyson fight, and have a second impromptu Michaels title defense where Shamrock beats Tyson and Michaels on the same night, and leaves WM14 champion. 

Or, Shamrock vs. Tyson is a mess of a match, and you're just stalling until Austin comes back. Say Austin can be healthy by SummerSlam, and you're just doing their WM14 match at SummerSlam instead, which is actually fine because WCW is about to implode in the second half of the year, anyway. 

Austin's out longer than that, The Rock is ready to be champ, in whatever role needed, by Survivor Series.

So, it's absolute chaos for a while, but by the end of the year, WWF is back on track to bury WCW. 

Oct 31, 2024 8:03:57 GMT Kilgore said:

Austin's out longer than that, The Rock is ready to be champ, in whatever role needed, by Survivor Series.

So, it's absolute chaos for a while, but by the end of the year, WWF is back on track to bury WCW. 

If Austin is out for good, how do we think the WWF really does for the majority of 1998? With Austin gone, you lose Austin vs. Vince. Ratings had been rising through 1997. Even with WCW making mistake after mistake, their ratings were huge. Do the WWF ratings plummet? Are they in trouble if Shamrock doesn't catch fire?

I can see Goldberg vs. Shamrock being the talk of the playground. Not quite in a Goldberg vs. Austin way, but Goldberg was kind of half Austin, half Shamrock. Bald, jacked badass but didn't talk much and had a sort-of shooter gimmick.

In a world where Austin has to retire in early 1998, I imagine Vince would push the boat out massively for Hogan, who signed his new, crazy WCW contract in May 1998. Remember that wild 5-year offer Vince made to Warrior in Dec 1997?

In addition to all the money he was paying Tyson, this is why I don't think the WWF was in dire straits like Vince made the wrestlers believe. That was a great work. He wanted out of the Bret deal, he wanted the wrestlers to feel sorry for him, exploit a feeling of loyalty, and get them to work for less in an era where WCW was giving out huge guaranteed money.

Agree that Vince tries desperately to re-sign Hogan in May 1998. I don't know that he could actually get him, though. WCW gave Hogan a deal that WWF would not match ever, and that was without a desperate Vince trying to steal him back, so I assume WCW is always going to outbid WWF, and not just with money, but with insane creative control type clauses that Vince wouldn't go for, especially 6 months after the Montreal Screwjob. I'd love this alternate universe where WCW rids themselves of Hogan (accidentally) at the precise right moment, which wrecks the momentum WWF was building, it's so fun to think about, but I don't think Vince can get Hogan in 1998. The only people Vince stole were guys Bischoff didn't really want.

Also agree that WWF is in trouble ratings wise for a while. I suppose the big angle becomes the break up of DX, and it's a Babyface DX (led by Triple H) vs. Vince's Corporation of sorts (led by Shawn). Try to manufacture some of the numbers Austin vs. Vince was getting. And that does okay, I guess, but doesn't win a ratings war (people forget Shawn was ratings poison until he started sharing a ring with Austin and Tyson).

Even this version of Shamrock we're trying to create, what does he do as a top guy after Shawn? Midcard champion vs. The Rock? An actual Severn feud? Early version of MMATaker? This isn't exactly Austin 3:16 numbers.

Trying to imagine SummerSlam and the best case scenario is probably:

Shamrock vs Undertaker (WWF Championship)
Shawn vs. Triple H
The Rock vs. Mankind or The Rock vs Owen (IC Championship Ladder Match)
New Age Outlaws vs. LOD 2000 (Tag Team Championship)
And then everything else is how it was.

This all hinges on Shamrock catching on, obviously. I don't think they're beating WCW with that, but they're treading water pretty well until The Rock emerges as a top guy in the near future. Foley is emerging as the most beloved babyface in wrestling, and they can strap the rockets to Rock by Survivor Series with the same Screwjob callback against either Foley or Shamrock.

I think that puts them in pretty good shape to consistently win ratings in 1999.

I think VII would have been a very easy fix.

Duggan was basically a Hogan surrogate on house shows and had no match on the show. If Hogan goes down weeks out from the show, you run Duggan over Slaughter by DQ or CO in the middle of the show, as Duggan was not winning the belt. Then close the show with Savage/Liz reunion post Warrior/Savage.

If Hogan is out for a long time, then Warrior wins the belt back at the April SNME where he took on Slaughter anyway and his house show run with Taker that did good business gets the title added.

Maybe Warrior as champion catches on second time and he sticks around. That has potentially significant ramifications. Warrior/Taker gets run at SummerSlam with Taker taking a loss. Taker would lose to Hogan but only after winning the belt, which definitely helped cement him as different to other monster challengers.

35 should have been Becky VS Ronda 1 on 1, with Becky making Ronda tap.

Rather than that botched finish of Ronda going into business for herself.