So for our entire time as fans and even before the buck always stopped with Vince. Audience and One and all that. Who is that in 2024? Is HHH just a member of the board/head creative... does he have any actual say in anything or does the buck stop at Endeavor/whoever owns the company these days? Thinking about the fans and do you think they're not going to be as stubborn about the "course" as Vince used to be? Wrestling always has the luxury of turning guys heel when the fans aren't having it, do you see that happening more often if the butts in the seats reject whatever direction they go.

So in a roundabout way, is WWE even WWE anymore? Is Endeavor actually running things or is it merely an acquisition that they finance from afar?

Triple H isn’t on the board, but he is the head of the wrestling product. Unless he gets swept up in the Vince shit, I don’t see that changing.

The business side is, and will continue to be, Nick Khan. Yes, he reports to Ari, who reports to the board, but this will continue to be Nick’s show until further notice.

I think the only noticeable difference that we will see right away is a more structured TV product. Vince was notorious for ripping up scripts and changing shit on the fly and I have to assume that was a major piss off to the performers. I don't see that happening as often anymore, if at all.

It was already starting with him taking a step away last year and now that he is gone completely it should stay the course.

Feb 11, 2024 20:42:27 GMT RT said:

I think the only noticeable difference that we will see right away is a more structured TV product. Vince was notorious for ripping up scripts and changing shit on the fly and I have to assume that was a major piss off to the performers. I don't see that happening as often anymore, if at all.

It was already starting with him taking a step away last year and now that he is gone completely it should stay the course.

One more build: Kevin Dunn departing is a massive change. The new guy from ESPN has been a breath of fresh air.

I expect WWE to be run much more as a business than it ever has been. No clue what they do with the on air product, but it is looking more and more like the days of massive contracts in WWE are ending. White, Okada, Mone and Willy all going to AEW should have never have happened. They also failed to get Matt Cardona back.

Also being said no one resigning people early on big contracts. Endeavor took over, and will make an offer and it sounds like it is take it or leave it. Okada was lowballed with his offer and did not take it, and Cardona I believe also mentioned money as a reason not to return. Sounds like Mone was also an issue of money. Then there is the Drew situation. 8 weeks and his contract is up.

If I was a betting man, outside of the absolute top people, no one is going to get big money contracts, and people who are not over will get cuts when they resign now. From a business standpoint, you have NXT to feed the fed fresh talent that are a fraction of the cost, so why retain top stars, when you can feed up new ones? That works well for UFC to keep costs down, and very likely that logic is going to WWE to reign in the insane talent costs. What are these guys going to do, walk and trade working on the grandest stage to wrestle in empty arenas? And it is clear there is no priority to bring in the top free agents if they cannot get them cheap.

Feb 11, 2024 20:42:27 GMT RT said:

I think the only noticeable difference that we will see right away is a more structured TV product. Vince was notorious for ripping up scripts and changing shit on the fly and I have to assume that was a major piss off to the performers. I don't see that happening as often anymore, if at all.

It was already starting with him taking a step away last year and now that he is gone completely it should stay the course.

I also think from HHH we may see a lot more long term storytelling.  Sami and the Bloodline was amazing, and HHH's own best stories were all longer term ones.  I think he gets you cannot just do crash TV if you want to have fans truly care.  It may just be me too, but also feels like now Vince is gone, he is allowing people more leeway on the mic and with their gimmicks.  Drew seems to be loving the fuck out of this and is doing his best work.  Seth also seems on fire of late.

Also HHH is damn quick at recovering.  Turned the mistake of Rock fighting Reigns into Cody vs the Bloodline now, which includes the Rock who is pissed off Cody got involved in Bloodline business, and has the nerve to think he is on their level.  That was damn quick to turn things around.  Then Rock is pushing the fuck out of this on social media and interviews.

I am very curious what happens when the lawsuit hits discovery as a lot of the people heading creative in the back can also be out. Hayes and Prichard are not going to survive this scandal I think. Which coupled with Dunn also leaving means the old guard may finally all be out.

Prior to Vince stepping down a few years ago now, WWE felt like a circus. A lot of incoherent, out of place, weird angles and storylines that as the point I'm making.. made little sense. The lower card also all felt like caricatures and watching both RAW and Smackdown, it felt like these personalities simply wouldn't exist in any sort of reality. It felt, off. Almost a satire.

That change for me almost over night wit Hunter taking the lead. As did so much more. The success of the last 18 months is due to Hunter's direction and leadership. His creative is the most consistent of anyone in professional wrestling today. And it's proven, despite niche opinion, that good storytelling = big business.

I doubt The Rock wants a huge amount of input into the direction or the leadership of the creative or the business itself, outside of injecting himself into the Wrestlemania main event. And hopefully learnt a valuable lesson and now understands his role and shuts his mouth. I know that's difficult for him *cough* F&F *cough* DCU *cough*

To even think for a second about removing Hunter from the CCO role would be a disaster for the creative, and would the trust of the roster. This roster was groomed by HHH from NXT up, they have his trust and he has their loyalty. You wouldn't want to kill that over wanting a stooge in the role.

I think with TKO, we will see more of that real reality type stuff ie; The press conference this week which was a massive success.

c — I think your assessment of contracts and the recent signees is off base, or at minimum, unfounded.

Just because they didn’t sign them doesn’t mean WWE fucked up, but that’s the implication laced throughout,

You nailed it in the AEW thread. I think WWE is looking more at these guys as business assets. Vince would do what Tony is doing and just sign everyone to prevent anyone else from having them. Endeavor seems more focus on costs and value. And the best value guys are not Okada or Will, but the NXT crew on contracts that are a fraction of what the people they passed on make.

But this all does rely on the assumption these NXT guys can routinely be made into superstars. And that is remaining to be seen in the post indy raid classes.

Feb 11, 2024 21:09:16 GMT c said:

You nailed it in the AEW thread. I think WWE is looking more at these guys as business assets. Vince would do what Tony is doing and just sign everyone to prevent anyone else from having them. Endeavor seems more focus on costs and value. And the best value guys are not Okada or Will, but the NXT crew on contracts that are a fraction of what the people they passed on make.

But this all does rely on the assumption these NXT guys can routinely be made into superstars. And that is remaining to be seen in the post indy raid classes.

The NXT/pipeline of talent argument is separate though, no?

The guys were talking about (Okada, Osprey, Sasha, even Cardona) are not “the future.” Those are people who would be presumably be upper card right now, not just heading to the main roster in a few years.

I am talking their over attitudes towards talent. It is clear things changed since Endeavor as Vince would have signed them all.

One other thing not mentioned with the changes, is the Raw situation. Raw will become gated by netflix, and many are gonna lose access. This is gonna change WWE. And the PPVs likely will drastically change as they are also formatted for routine ad breaks. These may change things far more than losing Vince.

Also have the matter of the three months of darkness when Raw is simply off the air entirely that leads into the Rumble. Either gonna get Smackdown and NXT jammed pack with talent, or a massive wave of releases coming. Investors will not be pleased with three months of paying people to stay home.

Feb 11, 2024 22:58:40 GMT c said:

I am talking their over attitudes towards talent. It is clear things changed since Endeavor as Vince would have signed them all.

One other thing not mentioned with the changes, is the Raw situation. Raw will become gated by netflix, and many are gonna lose access. This is gonna change WWE. And the PPVs likely will drastically change as they are also formatted for routine ad breaks. These may change things far more than losing Vince.

Also have the matter of the three months of darkness when Raw is simply off the air entirely that leads into the Rumble. Either gonna get Smackdown and NXT jammed pack with talent, or a massive wave of releases coming. Investors will not be pleased with three months of paying people to stay home.

I bet Raw goes to YT (not YouTube TV streaming service). They can run ads still as a stopgap.

Netflix can also run ads in a live broadcast.

I think you’re grasping at straws for some doom and gloom scenarios.

Have you seen a WWE PLE over the last few years?

There's already routine commercial breaks, be it merch or tour commercials or sponsorship.

Christ, it can be 10 or 15 minutes between matches with all the self promotion sometimes.

To expect a complete flip of the script in terms of formula is dramatic.

[Source] c said:

But this all does rely on the assumption these NXT guys can routinely be made into superstars. And that is remaining to be seen in the post indy raid classes.

Bianca Belair, Liv Morgan, Bron Breakker, Chad Gable, Alexa Bliss, Charlotte Flair, Strowman.. do I need to go on and list all the guys who were completely fresh to wrestling and became stars. Or the sheer number of guys with minimal independent experience who were finely tuned in NXT/PC - Hayes, Miro, Buddy. Or even those who were on the independents who became much, much better and bigger deals thanks to NXT - Gargano, Ciampa, Black, Almas, Sasha, Becky, Dunne, etc. Or prospects like Tiff, Trick, and 3 quarters of the NXT women's division.

The system works, the WWE roster is proof of that, as is the AEW roster.

Sure it is great for the women, but what about the men? Almost all the guys who came up were indy guys or second gen. And they are not longer recruiting indy talent.

You're really reaching here.

Heaven forbid a wrestling company hire wrestlers.

Feb 12, 2024 12:36:28 GMT c said:

Sure it is great for the women, but what about the men? Almost all the guys who came up were indy guys or second gen. And they are not longer recruiting indy talent.

You’re reaching so hard to bash WWE.

Somehow, you’ve constructed a world where not overpaying for Okada means the WWE will collapse like it did in the mid-90s. It’s an astoundingly bad take, c.

I can understand the obsession so many AEW goofs have with Okada and Sasha potential signing, because the " forbidden door " mentality is all AEW has to draw in any interest. And even then, the interest is lost within a month.

" OMG what's [insert name here] doing in the Tony-Zone?! "

Feb 13, 2024 4:34:05 GMT NATH45 said:

I can understand the obsession so many AEW goofs have with Okada and Sasha potential signing, because the " forbidden door " mentality is all AEW has to draw in any interest. And even then, the interest is lost within a month.

" OMG what's [insert name here] doing in the Tony-Zone?! "

I think it over-serves TK’s audience, and that’s great for him (and the AEW fans). But it needs to stop being framed that WWE and AEW are truly in competition. That moment came and went. It’s not coming back.

I'm just struggling to see the WCW comparison.

The WWF were in trouble due to the steroid scandal, audience fatigue, dwindling talent and a shift in the zeitgeist. The muscle-bound super hero action star had made way for the cynical everyman and that would later become the anti-hero.

If anything, WCW helped the WWF find success. They gave the WWF a license to put on an edgier show and that resonated with the fans and their focus on younger stars paid dividends.

Okada is no Hall, Ospreay is no Nash - if anything we're talking about the Benoits, Guerreros, Malenkos, Jerichos, Sabus, Al Snows of that era. Talented free agents who were over in foreign countries and have some notoriety but in terms of moving numbers on a week to week basis are virtual unknowns. If anything, WWF benefited from all those guys going to WCW because they became more visible and earned some name value.

Meanwhile I wonder how some of the AEW talent is feeling? Austin, Foley, HHH, Mero (and by association, Sable), Jericho, Big Show etc. all left because the roster became too bloated, I'm sure there's a few right now who'll find their way to the WWE before too long.

The comparison starts with the overall MO. Bischoff hoarded talent, as does TK.

E played heavily into his favourites allowing creative control and political stroke to become commonplace and eventually be it's undoing. The same thing is happening in AEW, except TK's too naive to see it ie ; The Elite, Jericho, etc. The inmates ran that asylum in WCW, as they do in AEW.

WCW fired the man who would become the biggest star in the world, a few back to back Royal Rumbles later.. AEW alienated another man who would become the biggest star in the world, a few Royal Rumbles later. Let's pretend Punk is Flair. WCW pissed off and broke Flair, AEW did the same to Punk.

Hell, Dynamite = Nitro.

Developmental... barely. I hear Dustin had a ring in a shed.

Creating new stars. Ok, AEW has made one guy. One Jewish guy. Oddly familiar to WCW.

But, more so like WCW, in AEW you're either starting or finishing your career there. But you're not seeing the peak of it in Tony-Land.

Feb 13, 2024 7:21:29 GMT NATH45 said:

The comparison starts with the overall MO. Bischoff hoarded talent, as does TK.

E played heavily into his favourites allowing creative control and political stroke to become commonplace and eventually be it's undoing. The same thing is happening in AEW, except TK's too naive to see it ie ; The Elite, Jericho, etc. The inmates ran that asylum in WCW, as they do in AEW.

WCW fired the man who would become the biggest star in the world, a few back to back Royal Rumbles later.. AEW alienated another man who would become the biggest star in the world, a few Royal Rumbles later. Let's pretend Punk is Flair. WCW pissed off and broke Flair, AEW did the same to Punk.

Hell, Dynamite = Nitro.

Developmental... barely. I hear Dustin had a ring in a shed.

Creating new stars. Ok, AEW has made one guy. One Jewish guy. Oddly familiar to WCW.

But, more so like WCW, in AEW you're either starting or finishing your career there. But you're not seeing the peak of it in Tony-Land.

The bloated roster, the inmates running the asylum, over-exposure etc. all hold water.

But this idea that WCW nearly put the WWF out of business because they signed up all this talent? First off, wasn't true in the first place. Second you can't compare Okada/Ospreay/Mone to Nash/Hall.

The only thing that's similar is that Vince is in trouble and even that's a stretch since the WWE have distanced themselves from the entire incident.

I think there was a real danger for the WWF in WCW signing up a lot of talent... if WCW actually utilised them well. But it was never the case.

That's another similarity with AEW. They have a tonne of decent talent, but it's a reach suggesting anyone is being utilised in such a way that it is closing a gap between AEW and WWE or creating or attracting new fans. Or any of what happens in AEW will impact WWE in any way.

WWE is a machine. It is beyond a sheer " wrestling promotion " - Okada signing to the WWE, he becomes a spoke on a wheel. Whether he's there or not, that wheel on that big machine still turns. And the machine moves forward. 

AEW hasn't even invented the wheel yet, let alone the machine it's driving. 

Then there's all the evidence that suggests, despite the high profile talent acquisitions, less people are actually watching today compared to when AEW drew it's biggest numbers. At least, in the United States. So, there's that. 

Feb 13, 2024 10:42:23 GMT NATH45 said:

I think there was a real danger for the WWF in WCW signing up a lot of talent... if WCW actually utilised them well. But it was never the case.

Never?

They revolutionised the entire industry with Hall and Nash. I'd argue from 95-97 WCW did as good a job, if not better than the WWF and the fans at the time seemingly agreed since they turned over in droves.

It all went pear shape when Bret came on board and Hogan put him under his thumb.

Feb 13, 2024 10:50:37 GMT Big Pete said:

Feb 13, 2024 10:42:23 GMT NATH45 said:

I think there was a real danger for the WWF in WCW signing up a lot of talent... if WCW actually utilised them well. But it was never the case.

Never?

They revolutionised the entire industry with Hall and Nash. I'd argue from 95-97 WCW did as good a job, if not better than the WWF and the fans at the time seemingly agreed since they turned over in droves.

It all went pear shape when Bret came on board and Hogan put him under his thumb.

Of course. Totally agree on that front. 

By my definition of " signing up " it extends beyond hiring WWF talent. WCW hired plenty of ECW and international talents, who all had some degree of success and exposure. Many of which would become World Champions in WWE in the decade that followed WCW's collapse. WCW's inability to utilize these talents is one of the leading reasons why WCW fell apart, as the workhorse mid-card literally walked for the WWF. Could they have utilized these talents, then maybe Starrcade 2001 is headlined by Chris Jericho v Chris Benoit, instead of you know... not happening at all. 

Feb 13, 2024 11:18:04 GMT NATH45 said:

Feb 13, 2024 10:50:37 GMT Big Pete said:

Never?

They revolutionised the entire industry with Hall and Nash. I'd argue from 95-97 WCW did as good a job, if not better than the WWF and the fans at the time seemingly agreed since they turned over in droves.

It all went pear shape when Bret came on board and Hogan put him under his thumb.

Of course. Totally agree on that front. 

By my definition of " signing up " it extends beyond hiring WWF talent. WCW hired plenty of ECW and international talents, who all had some degree of success and exposure. Many of which would become World Champions in WWE in the decade that followed WCW's collapse. WCW's inability to utilize these talents is one of the leading reasons why WCW fell apart, as the workhorse mid-card literally walked for the WWF. Could they have utilized these talents, then maybe Starrcade 2001 is headlined by Chris Jericho v Chris Benoit, instead of you know... not happening at all. 

I can see your point, but I'd argue it was a mangement issue moreso than a creative one.

ECW had about as much notoriety in the mid-90s as NJPW, arguably less so. While these guys were ready to take the next step, they weren't over and had to learn how to get over in a major company. There were definite teething issues and it took them years to find themselves. You may have read about it here before, but there's very wrestlers who were able to turn their careers around like Jericho. From a bland babyface in 96-97 to one of the hottest heels of 98. It was all going well, until Terry Taylor had him go into business for himself and shoot a program with Goldberg without getting Bill's permission first. It got over, but that would never be on in the WWF and would have been punished.

As soon as Bischoff pulled the pin on it, Jericho was out the door. Chris didn't hang around long enough to see his potential squandered, he went to the WWF where he became a bigger star but arguably wasn't used as well as he should have been. At least not during that first run in 99-05.

That's all besides the point, I just think WCW gets a bad rap on those guys. Like I'm sure Chris 'The Goon' Jericho would have fit in nicely with Leif Cassidy and Flash Funk.

I guess another thing we often forget is WCW at its peak in terms of what we all think of as " WCW / nWo " was less than 5 years. 4 years, and 7 months between the nWo debuting and Shane walking out on Nitro.

It's not an awfully long time, and certainly to your point about WCW getting a bad rap, you can potentially justify or excuse WCW's focus on established talent rather than building new superstars as there was a high likelihood, the company wouldn't be around for a long time and there was too much turmoil to suggest theybhad a long term vision.

This is the concern AEW should be facing. It has been around for 5 years now, it has survived largely on the back of The Elite and friends initially, and feeds from the independents or more fairly, contracts expiring or people leaving NJPW or WWE.

A conversation should have taking place that asks " what does AEW look like in 5 years? " and the answer should not be " ok, sure.. Drew's contract is up, maybe be sign him. Sheamus, the dirtsheets suggest he's angry... maybe Sheamus too. Oh, and maybe, we can sign The War Dogs and bring them in.... "

The conversation should be, " how do we get these young guys we already have to that main event level? "

Related to changes WWE is going through, Jade Cargill pulled from EC it is said because she is cannot memorize matches. Believed she will be returned to the bench for several months at least. In AEW her matches were called on the fly as is common outside of WWE, but in WWE most matches are booked move for move by agents with little input from the wrestlers.

More and more WWE and other feds are becoming entirely different ways of doing pro-wrestling.

Jade was never announced for the show. It was just speculation she’d be a part of the EC match because of a leaked image.