Here's a rant I've been meaning to drop for ages but would always forget by the time I got home (I spend an inordinate amount of time at work thinking up PW posting ideas). Money marks are actually good, and I don't get the hate from fans or the boys.

The boys are just idiots. Total braindead morons for the most part. Love seeing shoot interviews from some broken-down old timer still working the indie circuit for peanuts yukking it up about that time they screwed over some money mark. "Yeah, the dumbass was paying me 5x my normal rate. Dummy even paid me in advance, so I took his $1000 and stayed home. He only ran two more shows after that. Stopped running when all the other big-name talent took his money and no showed like I did. Then I was back to taking $200 bookings. Hahaha what a mark! Really showed him!" Look in the mirror, bucko.

And I will never in a million years understand why fans have it in for money marks. "LMAO can you BELIEVE that mark Tony Khan actually LIKES wrestling AND enjoys hanging out with the boys. OMG what a loser! He really needs an HR division. Wrestling must become EVEN MORE corporate! Also, my entire identity is wrapped up in hating Vince McMahon and yet I want Tony to be more like him." Make it make sense.

In closing, money marks are good. If the boys had a brain cell between them, they would have ridden those money marks for as long as possible instead of swindling them at the first opportunity. And while Tony IS a total nerd who can be annoying, and does have his faults, I think he is overall good for wrestling, and I will never not be amused by Vince haters wanting Tony to be more like their own personal antichrist.

Rant over.

Baker

This lemonade stand of a business probably doesn't exist without those money marks. The fact that most shows are those indie peanuts prove that.

Boy, do I have a movie to show you Bake.

There just seems to be a fine line between benevolent benefactor (ie. Ted Turner, Rick Rubin) and money mark.

I think the former just do it out of respect for the craft and they leave it to others to run the show, they never try to leverage the industry to make themselves famous. Meanwhile Dixie made herself one of the stars of TNA and Tony is trying to push himself as one of the greatest promoters and bookers in Pro Wrestling history. Neither of them seem deserving, so the natural conclusion you draw is that they bought their way in.

I'm truly fascinated by the whole concept and idea of people blowing their fortune on starting a pro wrestling fed then being unable to resist the urge to put themselves into the show. There is really a deep deep psychological study to be had here.

The most interesting money mark to me was the guy that ran Tri States Wrestling, which was proto-ECW in like 1988-1991 years. Ran his own weekly wrestling radio show that aired in that area was a huge wrestling fan and spent all his money he made from a legit insurance business on the big wrestling cards in Philly. They drew some of the biggest indy crowds for that era but he burned through all of his money paying the boys(if you could find the results look how some of those Tri States cards are fucking stacked, this was where Cactus vs Eddie Gilbert feud happened). His last show he just took money for pre-sold tickets and disappeared without ever putting it on. Todd Gordon bought all of his stuff in early 92 to start Eastern Championship Wrestling and spent some time focusing on the cheap Philly guys he had at Mike Schmidt's Sports Bar. Carver W. Reed could be my next username.

Is Todd Gordon the GOAT money mark? Eddie Gilbert was sticking it to him was what led to Paul E. taking over the territory, 30 years later the trillion dollar Netflix deal.

I see a lot of Todd Gordon in Tony Kahn. Has he never thought about hiring Paulie to run AEW?

I read in one of my ECW books Todd wanted to book himself in the show as like a pimp with his own faction called the G-Spot in ECW, can't remember what year that was but I think it was after Paul E took over booking and he shot it down.

Feb 18, 2024 16:00:40 GMT Neo Zeed said:

I read in one of my ECW books Todd wanted to book himself in the show as like a pimp with his own faction called the G-Spot in ECW, can't remember what year that was but I think it was after Paul E took over booking and he shot it down.

Before or after the Godfather? More evidence that Vince just lifted all their ideas even the scrapped ones?

Feb 18, 2024 16:06:00 GMT @ness said:

Feb 18, 2024 16:00:40 GMT Neo Zeed said:

I read in one of my ECW books Todd wanted to book himself in the show as like a pimp with his own faction called the G-Spot in ECW, can't remember what year that was but I think it was after Paul E took over booking and he shot it down.

Before or after the Godfather? More evidence that Vince just lifted all their ideas even the scrapped ones?

Definitely before. This was towards the end of Gordon's ECW run in late 97 supposedly he kept pitching absurd ideas to Heyman to try to keep himself involved in the onscreen product when Heyman was just ready to get rid of him, didn't need him anymore. 

The money mark who just can't help putting themselves on TV reminds me of T.C. Martin out of Las Vegas and what Terry Funk once wrote about him. Martin's NWC kind of mirrors Tri State in Philly, only a couple years later. He had absolutely stacked cards (one with the Ultimate Warrior, who obviously ripped Martin off). Sabu vs. Cactus Jack had their best matches for NWC before they ever wrestled each other in ECW. Martin had a good thing going. Terry Funk, of course worked for him as the patron saint of indie wrestling, and wrote of Martin in Chapter 26 of his book, Beyond Beyond the Mat:

"I was at an independent show in Las Vegas in 1997, working for a guy named T.C. Martin, when I met Barry Blaustein. Martin's little independent group was actually doing pretty well and getting an ever-improving following among the Las Vegas locals. Unfortunately, T.C. decided he should be the star of the show despite the fact that he wasn't a trained wrestler. Pretty soon he became the play-by-play announcer. Then he became the ring announcer. Then he became the guy walking to and from the ring and managing the guys. Pretty soon he was all over the place, and it didn't take long for people to get sick of him and stop going to his shows. Realists are few and far between in this business and T.C. was not one of those rare ones. Of course, if everyone in the business was a realist, there would be no business."

Baker, That was a wonderful rant. I know this isn't an apples-to-apples comparison but I have a comparison. Still, as a lifelong wrestling fan, I'd rather have a guy like Tony Khan pushing a product than poor Eric Bischoff fighting upstream against corporate windbags that never gave a shit about wrestling & try to sabotage it at seemingly every turn.

Big Pete I'll take my chances on the next money mark to come down the pike not turning out to be another John duPont.

All I'm saying is I'd much rather work for the guy who is going to overpay me and would rather be my friend than my dictator. You milk that cash cow for all it's worth. And I still think the boys were idiots for working, rather than working with, the rare guy to come along who actually treated them decently. They could have had the original Tony Khan in Gordon Scozzari. They ended up with Paul "I'll Pay Ya Next Tuesday" Heyman. Can't help thinking they got what they deserved.

If you guys are right, and a money mark is just someone using their wrestling promotion to become a tv star, then most promoters in wrestling history would qualify as money marks. The GOAT Vince McMahon certainly does. 15 years as a lead commentator. Then the lead heel for a few years. Then a few more years on tv until even his biggest backers tired of him. Baba, Inoki, Watts, Verne, Stu, Fritz, both Jarretts & Heyman also qualify under this definition.

My area had 3 different indie promotions when I followed the scene back in the day. All 3 promoters were major parts of all 3 feds. 2 were top wrestlers and the other did an evil promoter gimmick a la Vince. 3 local promotions run by 3 money marks.

Pete mentioning Turner & Rubin got me thinking about something else. I actually have more respect for the proper money mark than the money leech like Cornette & Bischoff who made themselves the star of the show on someone else's dime before their incompetence caused the benevolent benefactors to pull the plug on the whole operation. Otoh that's GOAT tier carny work so maybe I should respect it after all? Gabe kinda sorta qualifies as well since he got "famous" on the dimes of RF & Cary Silkin.

I'm truly fascinated by the whole concept and idea of people blowing their fortune on starting a pro wrestling fed then being unable to resist the urge to put themselves into the show. There is really a deep deep psychological study to be had here.

You're overthinking it. This requires no deep analysis. Some people just want to be famous. A story as old as time. If they can't get there on talent, they'll try buying their way to fame. And I’m sure a few of them genuinely thought only they could do the job. Have to admit I am like this irl. All I expect from others filling in for me is that they don’t screw things up beyond repair. I take that old “if you want something done right, do it yourself” saying to heart. Trust no one.

Neo Zeed & @ness Tod's buddy Flash Funk was technically supposed to be a pimp...a very PG pimp. If Nobi has his timeline right the Flash Funk gimmick predates Tod's idea by a few months.

My favorite money mark might be AWF's Paul Alperstein. Poor guy allegedly lost a fortune in his quixotic attempt to bring wrestling in rounds to these heathen shores. Then there's the legendary Herb Abrams...

Money Marks 4 Life

I think the difference between most of the big promotors of the last 30 years and Tony Khan is, all ( outside of Dixie ) had some degree of time, education or apprenticeship in wrestling prior to taking on the big job. Bischoff, AWA. Heyman, the territories, NWA/WCW. Jarrett, CWA, WCW, WWF. Vince, of course was born into the business and Hunter since has served in some capacity as a leader for the better half of 20 years, on top of nearly 30 years in the WWE.

If TK didn't have a billionaire father, he wouldn't be in the business. He had zero credibility as a promotor or a creative mind. His experience was limited to fantasy booking on a forum and playing some sims. He'd be laughed out of the interview if he applied for a job in the business. He was no more qualified as a talent than anyone on here. 

TK bought into the business. And he didn't buy in low, he bought in high.

And the other difference is how the success is achieved or maintained.

In the car world, there's a saying " built, not bought " and the former commands more respect than the later. TK has bought a stable of sports cars ( ok, most of them are Miatas ) but none the less, there's some Lambos and Ferraris in there. It's a respectable stable none the less. But he didn't build the cars. And in some cases, he's paid Lambo money for MX-5s. And for the most, despite the shiny toys in the garage, he doesn't know how to drive them. But he has them, and that's what's important and when he opens his garage, people are wanting to look inside. 

What separates him from Heyman who was that owner / operator and Vince for that matter, is talent. Although Vince may not be the creative mind Paul E is, but as a business man and as a visionary, he was the final boss. But more importantly and this is what's keeping AEW alive, what separates him from Heyman and Dixie, is he has a blank cheque to do whatever he wants. He doesn't need to make money and can spend wildly to achieve his success. 

Is he a money mark? Likely, as the ROI hasn't been great ( if at all ) and I still believe some guys have taken advantage of his naivety ( Jericho, Show, Edge, Punk etc ) but in retrospect, I'd almost call him a hobbyist as he seems to be cool with not making any money. In 10 years time, he'll be seen as someone and will get respect on his name for strengthening the business - which is something Bischoff, Heyman or Dixie can't claim. 

Disagree that Bischoff didn't strengthen the business. He's an idiot, and there was a lot of luck involved, but he's as responsible for the late '90s wrestling boom as Vince (who is also an idiot, and also had a lot of luck involved), and the business uptick began with Bischoff.

The business is just a series of lucky idiots falling on top of each other.

Feb 19, 2024 1:21:19 GMT Kilgore said:

Disagree that Bischoff didn't strengthen the business. He's an idiot, and there was a lot of luck involved, but he's as responsible for the late '90s wrestling boom as Vince (who is also an idiot, and also had a lot of luck involved), and the business uptick began with Bischoff.

Short term. Yes. Long term, not so much. 

Feb 19, 2024 3:33:24 GMT NATH45 said:

Feb 19, 2024 1:21:19 GMT Kilgore said:

Disagree that Bischoff didn't strengthen the business. He's an idiot, and there was a lot of luck involved, but he's as responsible for the late '90s wrestling boom as Vince (who is also an idiot, and also had a lot of luck involved), and the business uptick began with Bischoff.

Short term. Yes. Long term, not so much. 

I'm going to wait and see Tony Khan strengthen the business even a quarter as much as Bischoff did short term before I start awarding him hypothetical accolades 10 years from now. Dynamite and Raw are getting less viewers combined than Nitro had when it got cancelled.

Feb 19, 2024 4:51:23 GMT Baker said:

If you guys are right, and a money mark is just someone using their wrestling promotion to become a tv star, then most promoters in wrestling history would qualify as money marks. The GOAT Vince McMahon certainly does. 15 years as a lead commentator. Then the lead heel for a few years. Then a few more years on tv until even his biggest backers tired of him. Baba, Inoki, Watts, Verne, Stu, Fritz, both Jarretts & Heyman also qualify under this definition.

I think the difference is that being famous isn't their sole motivation. They're still trying to be successful and cater to a wider audience. Whereas a money mark feels like they're catering to themselves and the boys.

I think you're right that there's a cosmic balance and for every money mark there's a dodgy promoter who will exploit the talent to maximise profits. So when a guy like Kevin Nash boasts about how much money he made for the amount of effort he put in, there's a level of appreciation because it's dog eat dog industry. It also helps that Nash is really personable and effective at presenting his perspective. These guys make so many sacrifices, you don't feel bad when they get a win, especially when the person they're exploiting can afford it.

Now can I get an impassioned defence for simps?

Feb 19, 2024 4:37:49 GMT Kilgore said:

Feb 19, 2024 3:33:24 GMT NATH45 said:

Short term. Yes. Long term, not so much. 

I'm going to wait and see Tony Khan strengthen the business even a quarter as much as Bischoff did short term before I start awarding him hypothetical accolades 10 years from now. Dynamite and Raw are getting less viewers combined than Nitro had when it got cancelled.

I doubt AEW will ever see any great success ratings wise, due to the obvious fact the product isn't great. Or good in a lot of cases.

I actively hate AEW at times, and think TK is a massive dork, but..

AEW's hypothetical contributions to the industry will be measured in the fact it is likely going to serve as a very good talent pipeline for future WWE talent and even pop the independents and international markets as talent gain exposure on a national level. Similarly to TNA at its peak, but on a much larger scale and more notable scale.

The impact AEW will and has had on that level of the industry and below it will be felt for much more than WCW's influence likely due to the longevity AEW will achieve being owner-operated and having family money behind it, and partly due to how fluid it is with cross promotion and it's open door policy.

I think it will be remembered as an excellent exporter, as opposed to the quality of its programming.

There's still a lot of water to go under that bridge yet and I think you're downplaying the influence ECW and WCW had on the industry. So many careers were made in both companies or helped shape things that would keep the industry alive well after kayfabe had died.

I'd also argue that so far, the arrival of AEW has only hurt NJPW.

I'm also talking in 10 years time as opposed to what AEW has or hasn't achieved or contributed in the present day or over the last 4 or 5 years. 

I'm basing those projections on potential. But if you want some retrospect, also consider what The Elite were able to achieve with the first ALL IN. 

--- 

WCW's claim to strengthening the business might lie in pushing the WWF into uncharted territory and prompting The Attitude Era and initially launching a renewed interest in wrestling in the mid-90s - 100% agree right there. 

But WCW certainly didn't create an environment that fostered new talent. Anyone with any time in WCW that jumped to WWF, fell into the mid-card at best, and what was highlighted further during The Invasion, was the sizable disproportion of star power between the WWF v WCW talent. It was further exampled when Goldberg & Steiner eventually jumped over, how significantly better in every way the WWF talent was. Bischoff has also stated, WCW didn't have the foresight, nor the ability to protect and preserve the business if the shoe was on the other foot and they had won the Monday Night War and purchased the WWF instead. And to be frank, the WWF was running it's own race by the year 2000. WCW was dead in the water and most of it's final roster achieved little of importance upon the company's demise. 

I think we also often over-sell the importance of ECW and it's hand in creating or introducing talent that would eventually see success in the WWE. Rob Van Dam is the only notable guy to remain in ECW until the doors closed to see real success in the WWE, if you're not counting Paul Heyman. Chris Jericho by comparison worked for ECW for less than 8 months and wrestled all of 10 matches. Rey, 8 months in the ECW and 9 matches. Eddie, about 5 months and 18 odd matches. Steve Austin came and went through ECW so quickly, his cup of tea didn't get cold. Yet, these are the types of names everyone goes to as examples to highlight the importance of ECW and it's hand in creating new stars and it's influence on the business. 

Reality was, ECW was a stepping stone or a pit stop by guys between stints in Japan or Mexico and the eventual big league of WCW or WWF. Foley is perhaps the only one who bucks the trend of having any significant time in ECW, and eventually finding success in the WWF later on. Even then, he was big in Japan and had a notable career in WCW prior. 

WCW had killed it's audience by the time it had closed it doors - creatively you might suggest, it reversed any significant impacts it had on the business. ECW on the other hand had alienated sponsors and networks due to it's inability to evolve out of the retarded mentality it operated under, hence why it failed to secure a new television deal. 

In fact, a year later, the business was so weak in 2002 outside of the WWE that someone had to start their own promotion just to get a gig as there was nothing left and the most notable independent of the day was putting on shows in front of just a few people. So if ECW or WCW had any significant impact on the strength of the business, it was failed to be seen in the years to come. 

Potential is just a word teachers use to deceive parents. With that said, Tony hasn't been a total drain on the industry, 70,000+ fans is nothing to sneeze at and while NJPW were selling out Madison Square Garden before he arrived, they weren't able to maintain that moment.

With that said, I can't agree with the assessment of Heyman and Bischoff. Look at the shape the industry was in before they took over in '93. Business was circling the drain and there were WCW shows where they couldn't even attract 100 fans. However both of them modernised the product, were able to target a different demographic and what had been a dying industry became the hottest thing on cable TV. It wasn't just that they prompted the Attitude Era, it's that they themselves put out a fantastic product that would go onto leave a mark that's still felt to this day.

Look no further than The Elite who's entire gimmick originated as an nWo parody.

I also don't put a ton of stock into the WWE dropping the ball on various WCW talents. More often than not, it was purely driven by spite. So many guys and girls benefitted from WCW/ECW and the same creative mind that helped modernise the product are still out there right now putting together the best story in the industry as we speak.

Feb 18, 2024 15:58:46 GMT Neo Zeed said:

I see a lot of Todd Gordon in Tony Kahn. Has he never thought about hiring Paulie to run AEW?

To be honest, I see more Herb Abrams in Tony Khan than Tod Gordon.😂

Feb 19, 2024 6:40:52 GMT Big Pete said:

Feb 19, 2024 4:51:23 GMT Baker said:

If you guys are right, and a money mark is just someone using their wrestling promotion to become a tv star, then most promoters in wrestling history would qualify as money marks. The GOAT Vince McMahon certainly does. 15 years as a lead commentator. Then the lead heel for a few years. Then a few more years on tv until even his biggest backers tired of him. Baba, Inoki, Watts, Verne, Stu, Fritz, both Jarretts & Heyman also qualify under this definition.

1. I think the difference is that being famous isn't their sole motivation. 
2. Now can I get an impassioned defence for simps?

1. True. Some were in it to make their sons famous. ba dum tss.
2. Sorry. I'm not the guy to make that argument.
============
As for Bischoff & Heyman, if we get right down to it wrestling has only been mainstream popular twice in my life- first from roughly 85-90 and then again from roughly 96-01. The first boom was all Vince & Hogan. The second boom would ultimately become synonymous with Vince & Austin, but let's not forget it was Bischoff (& Hogan again) who kicked off that boom with the NWO angle. Bischoff is also directly responsible for the Monday Night War which many people still consider to be the pinnacle of pro wrestling. It took balls to do that. Running head to head with Raw had to be considered a suicidal move at the time. Sleazy E is the only promoter to get the better of Vince over the past 40 years. He is the 2 in 38-2. You gotta give him credit for that. And this coming from a guy who was a diehard Bischoff hater for 15-20 years (I've mellowed out considerably in my old age to the point where I have at least some respect for practically every old wrestler and wrestling personality. "Practically" only because Kevin Nash exists. Fuck that lazy bum and his Clique bullshit. Lowest drawing champion in WWF history. Never forget.)

Heyman was also influential. I go back and forth with ECW's legacy. Some days I do think it's romanticized to an absurd degree. Other days I mostly agree. Let's not forget WWE resurrected the entire brand and TNA was still running shows built around ECW nostalgia like a decade after it died. What other promotion can claim such a legacy?

A long time ago I read something somewhere stating some band (Velvet Underground, I think) was never popular with the masses, but 9 out of 10 people who bought their album ended up starting a band of their own. That's what made them influential. ECW was basically that band who was never popular with the mainstream, but whose ideas and style ended up creeping into the mainstream, ultimately changing it forever.

Watch a wrestling show prior to 1996. Then watch one from roughly 96-08. There's a huge ECW influence on that entire era. More violence. More blood & guts. Crazier stunts. More profanity. Much more sleaze. Wilder angles. Even something as simple as tables that we take for granted nowadays were popularized in ECW. Now some of that stuff went away, but smaller wrestlers doing crazier and crazier moves hasn't. The modern wrestling style can trace its US roots back to Malenko/Guerrero & Rey/Psicosis in ECW. Those guys never would have got a shot in WWF. You kidding? Vince would have taken one look at those vanilla midgets and laughed them out of the building. WCW did give them a shot even if they were only midcard novelty acts, but that’s still more than they ever would have been if not for ECW! Take Rey for example. This 5'3 140 pound guy who was just barely allowed to legally drink got laughed out of the locker room the first time he showed up in WCW before winning the boys over with his match against Dean. 4 or 5 of Heyman’s vanilla midget discoveries would go on to become WWF Champion. Something that would have been unthinkable when Paul E. first brought in Benoit, Eddie, Rey, RVD & Jericho. I've also told the story before of not even thinking wrestlers under 200 pounds were legal until reading about ECW in the Apter Mags. Now half the wrestlers on tv are under 200 pounds. You can trace all these smaller wrestlers and their new style wrestling back to Paul Heyman's ECW. It's the house style all around the world now. And that's not even getting into all the ultraviolence and sleaze WWF borrowed and tweaked to make slightly more family friendly in order to produce the biggest wrestling boom of at least the past 30-35 years.

If were talking normalising smaller wrestlers, I'd give more credit to WCW if that's the case. Most of those names mentioned above had a cup of coffee in ECW and were in and out within 6 months and in comparison, they saw much longer tenures in WCW and ultimately had more of an influence on the next generation.

ECW sounds like a dive bar that Nirvana played at once before they made Nevermind, and it's been that bar's claim to fame since.

But speaking of cruiserweights.

TNA's X-Division cemented smaller wrestlers as a viable alternative to the Heavyweight Championship Division if not more than anyone else. It's influence is still felt to this day.

I think we're off topic now..