A post elsewhere made me think of all the indy tournaments that had varying levels of 'credibility'. Let's talk about them.

New Japan at least has a few. Ya got the G1 that's the biggest. Seeing an ex wwe gaijin still feels like it means something (mark talk). Super Juniors is another on the "undiscovered" side.

US indies before AEW took it's spot, PWG had BOLA. Felt like a big deal, whos who (of those not in tna/roh contracts at times) of the scene outside the evil empire. 2008 is still felt fondly over. C will probably stank this thread up by mentioning chikara and KOT. Super 8 is the nwa of tournaments. Even though it was through scumbag Ian Rotten (I feel dirty even putting him over fam) it seemed like that 2005 period still had some respect for Ted Petty, they also had KOTDM but by time I started paying attention to the scene they were a joke and TOD was all the rage. CZW also had BOTB. While it didn't seem *as* big of a deal in later years, it sure makes you wiki championship section seem more legit having one.

WWE isn't left out. KOTR was a big deal for a long long time. Does the Nose get credit here... but the Mae Young Classic a little forced but felt like it belonged in the conversation for tournament that featured OTHERS. They took the goodwill of the CWC and elevated into Dusty Rose.

I dunno is it markish to place any value on these things? I used to think it was the coolest thing as an accolade, like a different version of the "wearing all the belts pic" people do to play homage to Ultimo.

Seriously did you ever think a "win" was a big deal?

^What a post!

"Super 8 is the NWA of tournaments." Yep.

APW's King of the Indies was the only noticeable omission in @ness post. It was the West Coast version of the Super 8 for the short time it existed. Another one that has been lost to time as the promotion faded into irrelevance is the All Japan Champions Carnival. Once upon a time it was on par with the G1 in the eyes of smart fans. I have never seen a single Champions Carnival and didn't even know Japanese wrestling existed in 1994 and yet I can still tell you some things about the 1994 edition.

Tournaments drew for me the way Rumbles do in Australia. TPI was a must have for a few years and I think some BOTB was the only full CZW show I had on tape. I went to two Chikara shows- a Tag Tournament and a King of Trios. Locally the Shane Shamrock Memorial Cup was the big draw in MCW. I went to 3- 99, 03, 06. The 1994 Super J Cup was one of my first two Japanese wrestling tapes. Finally to my first Super 8 (2002) was crossing an item of the bucket list. Point is tournaments=Baker Dimes. I was also a huge KOTR mark for the first few years. They kind of killed it after a while, but that's on WWF rather than the concept.

Heck, even before KOTR I would always mark out for vacant title tournaments, none bigger than Wrestlemania IV which was the biggest thing in the world to 1988 me.

Never bothered with death match tourneys though and BOLA began right around the time I was drifting away from the indies so I never bothered with that either.

I never understood why WWE stopped caring about tournaments. Mae Young Classic aside, KOTR feels like they slapped together a handful of guys not doing anything and gave them a reason to be on TV. Then it's over before you actually care about it.

It has so much potential in building a star. Case in point was Bobby Roode in the Bound For Glory series.

Tournaments were great for showcasing talent as they could do several matches over the course of a weekend. The Chikara ones were my favorite, but BOLA usually delivered as well. For deathmatches ToD was always great. Ted Petty invitational was not bad at all either.

Reason I loved them as it was a great to check out a fed. For years only watched Chikara for tournament. Ditto for CZW, after I fell out of them only watched ToD. TPI was about all I watched from IWA-MS too as I never liked KotDM, and BOLA was my main PWG stuff.

King of the Indies and Super 8 was not super into.

Reason I dug Chikara so much is often the teams and trios were just so silly you had to love them. Like One Man Gang and Demolition as Team WWE, Cold Front 2.0 of Al Snow, D'Lo Brown and Glacier or the Faces of Pain of The Barbarian, Meng and The Warlord. Mix them with some of the top indy guys and it was just the recipe for a good time. When the old school fun teams left I stopped watching. Chikara was deep into a decline then.

Mar 8, 2024 4:56:29 GMT NATH45 said:

I never understood why WWE stopped caring about tournaments.

Too bland for the product they're pushing. You can't really brand a tournament and their one attempt at doing so lost it's luster. Plus, when you have a dozen or so titles, giving somebody a KOTR win doesn't feel as significant as it should.

Mar 8, 2024 4:56:29 GMT NATH45 said:

It has so much potential in building a star. Case in point was Bobby Roode in the Bound For Glory series.

Also almost all recent TV tournaments either they are 8 people and no one really cares or they are larger and people get bored of them after a week or two.

For indy ones, you have cost issues brining in guys which is why you rarely see non-deathmatch stuff. Costs for top talent adds up super fast and post tape selling boom, few have the cash now. I assume deathmatch guys are working for pennies or cannot really get a lot of normal work. Few want to see someone one Gage go out and try to chain wrestle. They want him to cut up people, and that does not fly when you have kids at shows.

I hated when kotr wasn't all done in one night. Semis and final just makes it less of a gauntlet. Imagine instead of Perfect Hall and Bambam it was only Hall and BB.. weak.

Mar 8, 2024 5:48:59 GMT Big Pete said:

Mar 8, 2024 4:56:29 GMT NATH45 said:

I never understood why WWE stopped caring about tournaments.

Too bland for the product they're pushing. You can't really brand a tournament and their one attempt at doing so lost it's luster. Plus, when you have a dozen or so titles, giving somebody a KOTR win doesn't feel as significant as it should.

Mar 8, 2024 4:56:29 GMT NATH45 said:

It has so much potential in building a star. Case in point was Bobby Roode in the Bound For Glory series.

You don't think the BFG series took Boddy Roode to the next level?

This was his break out moment for Roode and probably the best thing the Bischoff/Hogan power trip ever achieved before their regime killed the company.

It also felt like the last time TNA had real momentum, then in a yeah-nah moment they fuckex it up with a convoluted switch to Storm.

Mar 8, 2024 23:00:57 GMT NATH45 said:

Mar 8, 2024 5:48:59 GMT Big Pete said:

Too bland for the product they're pushing. You can't really brand a tournament and their one attempt at doing so lost it's luster. Plus, when you have a dozen or so titles, giving somebody a KOTR win doesn't feel as significant as it should.

You don't think the BFG series took Boddy Roode to the next level?

This was his break out moment for Roode and probably the best thing the Bischoff/Hogan power trip ever achieved before their regime killed the company.

It also felt like the last time TNA had real momentum, then in a yeah-nah moment they fuckex it up with a convoluted switch to Storm.

Bobby Roode is a different story altogether, but I think there was a more obvious example than Bobby...

Mar 9, 2024 4:40:06 GMT Big Pete said:

Mar 8, 2024 23:00:57 GMT NATH45 said:

You don't think the BFG series took Boddy Roode to the next level?

This was his break out moment for Roode and probably the best thing the Bischoff/Hogan power trip ever achieved before their regime killed the company.

It also felt like the last time TNA had real momentum, then in a yeah-nah moment they fuckex it up with a convoluted switch to Storm.

Bobby Roode is a different story altogether, but I think there was a more obvious example than Bobby...

Yeah, I'll give you that. I'm just still upset they didn't put the title on Roode without the bullshit.

Mar 9, 2024 4:49:59 GMT NATH45 said:

Mar 9, 2024 4:40:06 GMT Big Pete said:

Bobby Roode is a different story altogether, but I think there was a more obvious example than Bobby...

Yeah, I'll give you that. I'm just still upset they didn't put the title on Roode without the bullshit.

In the end, it seemed to do more for James Storm than Roode since he was the one who toppled Angle and the storyline called for him to beat Roode. I remember that loss being a real missed opportunity and while fans came around with the idea of Aries beating Roode, they completely fumbled it when they had Aries drop the title to Jeff Hardy when Victory Road was still fresh in everybody's mind. 

As it was, I don't think Bobby ever truly established himself as a star. He reminded me of HHH during his first run with the title before he had that match at the Rumble, he hadn't quite grown into the role yet. Unfortunately TNA only booked Bobby like a JBL fluke-artist and by the time they gave him another run with the belt he really wasn't anything special.

Mind you it was always going to be difficult because TNA was about to put all their eggs into the aces and eights storyline.

Back to the BFG series, didn't TNA mix up the timing of it and it all ended up being a mess? I just remember them seemingly calling time and having the top participants square off in a No. 1 contendership multi-man match at the PPV before BFG. Then Angle/Roode happened and it was a really lackluster match, then they copied ROH and the Edwards/Richards storyline, but at least did it better.

Roode beat Gunner and Ray beat Storm, Roode and Ray faced off in the final, where Roode won the series at No Surrender.

Angle beat Roode at Bound For Glory to retain.

Then two days later on TV, Storm beat Angle for the title. Only to drop it to Roode 8 days later.

Why? TNALOL. That's why.

In the end, there was no point to the series, as the equal 3rd place won the title first.

Mar 9, 2024 5:54:56 GMT NATH45 said:

Roode beat Gunner and Ray beat Storm, Roode and Ray faced off in the final, where Roode won the series at No Surrender.

Angle beat Roode at Bound For Glory to retain.

Then two days later on TV, Storm beat Angle for the title. Only to drop it to Roode 8 days later.

Why? TNALOL. That's why.

In the end, there was no point to the series, as the equal 3rd place won the title first.

I could be wrong, but didn't certain guys work way more matches than other participants and they clearly weren't going to have enough time to make it even for everyone, so they just booked the finals at No Surrender? I remember it was well and truly LOLTNA and the Storm/Roode title switch cancelled it all out.

I think it worked out better that way because you elevated two guys instead of one and got heat on Bobby who was a far more effective heel.

If they wanted to elevate both guys, why not have Storm win the series then win the title?

Let's pretend Beer Money made a pact that if either won, the other would get the first title shot. Then during Storm v Roode, Bobby smashes the beer bottle over Storm's head and wins the title dissolving Beer Money and turning heel.

Mar 9, 2024 9:46:07 GMT NATH45 said:

If they wanted to elevate both guys, why not have Storm win the series then win the title?

Let's pretend Beer Money made a pact that if either won, the other would get the first title shot. Then during Storm v Roode, Bobby smashes the beer bottle over Storm's head and wins the title dissolving Beer Money and turning heel.

Sure, but maybe before that they could map out the tournament first to make sure everyone faced an even share of opponents and it wasn't so farcical?

There's a thousand ways to skin a cat, with the way the cards fell, their option wasn't that bad, but ultimately they fumbled it when they decided the direction was Jeff Hardy & Aces and Eights.

Its typical TNA, it's half-assed and in the end a WWE guy gets the spotlight.

Tournaments are my favourite.

Let's face it, the vast majority of wrestling matches aren't important. They are just there to entertain the fans. Everything is made up and the points don't matter.

Tournaments are a rare situation where every match matters. Excitement is in the air. There's an air of unpredictability, especially in round robin tournaments, one of the few situations in pro-wrestling where a wrestler can defeat someone several leagues above them. It happens in the G1 every year.

The best thing AEW did was the Continental Classic. I was watching guys I'd never normally watch, like Andrade, and Jay Lethal, and Mark Briscoe.

My issue with tournaments is that they're a crutch and often make things too predictible.

For instance, let's take the Continental Classic. On the face of it, the Continental Classic was what AEW should be in the first place. A sports-based presentation, with a couple of divisions that's easy to follow and gives the fan some consistensy. Who knew that fans crave form and enjoy patterns they can easily detect? The problem was it didn't take a sleuth that the ROH title was a horrible prize for ANYONE other than Eddie Kingston. It's a poisoned chalice and when it became obvious that the direction was for Eddie to win the entire thing, the tournament became a predictible colossal waste of time for a brand that nobody cares about, for a wrestler that is struggling.

If you took away the brackets and just booked the promotion like you booked the Continental Classic you'd have a better product in general.

The worse example was the tournament where they booked Samoa Joe to become the No.1 contender. The same tournament featured Nick Wayne, Trent Baretta, Jeff Hardy, Roderick Strong, Penta, Jay Lethal and Darby Allin. Joe's only competition in Darby got taken out before the final as well, so it was obvious from the get go this was just a desperate attempt to rehab Joe (so he could promptly lose again and have MJF kick out of every finish despite being injured).

That's a booking decision I stole for my fan fic writing. I always had the champ lose a non-title in the tourney and then immediately get their job back in the earned title shot because I'm a shit writer.

Once the winner of the tournament is obvious they lose absolutely all interest for me. I also tend to prefer round robin stuff for this reason, single elimination stuff gets very predictable fast.

For Continental Classic Eddie was not a hard lock from the start. Dragon also would have been a great pick for winner given his legacy with the RoH title and desire to do more Japanese work. The number 1 contender stuff Tony does usually is awful though.

Curious what he does for the tag tournament as this could be a fun bracket based time to be a wrestling fan given the number of worthy teams. Or the Bucks win and we waste a month getting back to where we started.

Mar 9, 2024 16:00:03 GMT Big Pete said:

It's a poisoned chalice and when it became obvious that the direction was for Eddie to win the entire thing, the tournament became a predictible colossal waste of time for a brand that nobody cares about, for a wrestler that is struggling.

Sure it was predictable, but was it a waste of time? Nah. The benefits of the tournament are more than just the result. That was in the midst of Swerve's rise to the top - how would be fare against established giants like Moxley and White? The Moxley vs White match was intriguing in and of itself. Andrade had a fantastic showing. Garcia against King in the final round was great. And so on.

It also cemented Eddie as a top guy in AEW, which isn't a bad thing, as much as you want to bury it. He beat Claudio, Moxley and Danielson in quick succession. It looks like hot new talent Okada is gunning for Kingston's Triple Crown. Not a bad outcome.

Mar 9, 2024 16:00:03 GMT Big Pete said:

The worse example was the tournament where they booked Samoa Joe to become the No.1 contender. The same tournament featured Nick Wayne, Trent Baretta, Jeff Hardy, Roderick Strong, Penta, Jay Lethal and Darby Allin. Joe's only competition in Darby got taken out before the final as well, so it was obvious from the get go this was just a desperate attempt to rehab Joe (so he could promptly lose again and have MJF kick out of every finish despite being injured).

On this I agree. Knockout tournaments tend to suffer from predictability because they are poorly booked. NJPW's annual knockout tournament does not suffer this problem. Yeah a decent chunk of the individual matches are predictable especially in the early rounds but I have no idea who is going to win and upsets are likely.

Mar 9, 2024 16:14:52 GMT Emperor said:

Sure it was predictable, but was it a waste of time? Nah. The benefits of the tournament are more than just the result. That was in the midst of Swerve's rise to the top - how would be fare against established giants like Moxley and White? The Moxley vs White match was intriguing in and of itself. Andrade had a fantastic showing. Garcia against King in the final round was great. And so on.

It also cemented Eddie as a top guy in AEW, which isn't a bad thing, as much as you want to bury it. He beat Claudio, Moxley and Danielson in quick succession. It looks like hot new talent Okada is gunning for Kingston's Triple Crown. Not a bad outcome.

I take the point that there was good wrestling, but my point is that the sports-based presentation should just be AEW - you don't need a round robin tournament to make that happen, especially when it's for a title on a show that has more than a dozen titles to begin with. If you're going to all that effort - raise the stakes and make it for the most important championship in the company - lord knows the AEW title could have used the boost at that time (and still could).

Mar 9, 2024 16:21:52 GMT c said:

For Continental Classic Eddie was not a hard lock from the start. Dragon also would have been a great pick for winner given his legacy with the RoH title and desire to do more Japanese work.

Danielson clearly doesn't want that responsibility and had booked himself as Moxley's No. 2 for the better part of eighteen months. Plus, he's on his retirement tour and if you're familiar enough with the program, you know Eddie was obviously the choice. At times the booking is logical to a fault and that was one of those moments.

EDIT: It was also for three championships. Gee, I wonder if the guy who's gimmick is that he's a massive AJPW mark is actually going to win the newly created AEW Triple Crown?

Mar 8, 2024 4:56:29 GMT NATH45 said:

I never understood why WWE stopped caring about tournaments. Mae Young Classic aside, KOTR feels like they slapped together a handful of guys not doing anything and gave them a reason to be on TV. Then it's over before you actually care about it.

It has so much potential in building a star. A case in point was Bobby Roode in the Bound For Glory series.

Vince never liked tournaments. This steams from WM 4. When the NWA kicked WM 4 around with a Clash Of The Champions show on TBS. Sure he held tournaments but they didn't fit his vision of wrestling.