Start with when you became a fan and document how your interests changed to what they are today.

Survivor Series 98 - WMX8: I got into DIS BUSINESS thanks to the Attitude Era. Strictly WWF fan at the time with some side eye glances to ECW. I wasn't really a channel change, wCw just never interested me. I actually didn't like their ring and ropes. Paid it no mind and just marked for WWE. We watched it as a family as the EDGE (not Adam Copeland) got us invested. Interest was waning and Dad decided no more PPVs after that.

2002 - late 2003: I wasn't really watching it as seriously as I was, but I still followed bits of IWC and read about results.

Late 03-07: I got back into wrestling and joined PW so I had a place to discuss it. Mostly just WWE fan, but I paid enough attention (largely thanks to PW) to TNA. I was never a regularly viewer (don't consider me a 1.1er) but I was a "casual".

08-12: I was losing interest in WWE (I'd cena nuff) and was becoming more aware of the indies especially roh. Dragon's dark match with Lance Cade made me dip my toes. I knew of the big names and all, but never watched. I was convinced this was the future. I loved it and it felt like the "scene" merged my two eras of wrestling: edgey crash tv with the more wrestling appreciation of post attitude era of the brand split. I watched everything I could get my hands on (dvd and piracy) and went full on "wwe is sports entertainment trash this is REAL WRESTLING" cringe. Like full on DOUCHEBAG spouting "I guess I don't consider wrestling a dirty word ya know?" - fucking GAG.

2014-Whenever Roode/Nakamura were stinking up the joint on Takeovers: I was growing bored of wrestling again but the "chic" era of NXT really popped with me. I mean it was basically all the guys I'd been following on the indies in the same promotion via NXT so yeah. After they all got called up and the "Shane Swerve Strickland" era of NXT began, that was it for me. That's not a knock at the guy, I'm sure he's great but it's just a name to describe that post-Owens/Zayn era.

~19/20 (probably sooner) - Now: I really don't watch anything at all. Non wrestling stuff that pops up in my feed, but the last full match I saw was Omega/Danielson... the 30 minute draw they had, other than that nothing in years. I just don't care about it. These days I mostly just discuss the past and I'm more in love with the idea of it than what it is. I think PW has kept the spark going because if I wasn't on here all these years I'm gonna say I probably wouldn't have stuck around for the indies because it was boards that made it fun. Discussing it on the podcast with DJM, PW offshoots and just forum culture helped my interest. Even now I'm aware of things I never would've if say I only posted on reddit/yt comments. PW deserves more credit in keeping a fandom.

I was very much aware of wrestling growing up, but never had access to it. I had seen snippets of it, and I knew who the top guys were via some cross-overs and likely a video game or two. It wasn't until the summer of 1995 into 1996 where I really " saw " wrestling. A couple of WCW shows were shown on Nine's Wide World of Sports during a particularly hot and dry summer for us. It stayed with me. Wrestling started taking off in 1998 here, and it wasn't until late 1998 I really started building any real interest. It was WWF Superstars shown on a Saturday night, and it was 6 months out of date. But I didn't care. That, and the occasional Nitro that was on Free-To-Air. One of the first games I bought in 1999 on PlayStation was WWF War Zone and that was my catch-me-up on WWF, despite being 2 years out of date. One glorious day my parent decided to get Foxtel - Australia's satellite / cable. And the first thing I saw was a Best of Nitro. From that moment on, I was hooked and would consumed as much I could via tapes... WWF, WCW, ECW, etc. 

2001 will always hold a special place in my fandom, it was the death of WCW and ECW, WM17, The Power Trip, The Invasion and the introduction of The Undisputed Title, which closed the Attitude Era Chapter for better or worse. 

2002 and 2003. I was again consuming so much. WWE, TNA, ROH.. whatever Indy DVD's I could find. By 2004 until 2010, I was becoming the typical bitter wrestling fan. I was bitter, as the WWE was shit and it remained shit for the better half of the decade that followed. A few bright spots, sure.. but there's no surprises that it lost a massive part of it's audience during this period. I was also very much convinced TNA was the greatest thing ever. I was incredibility faithful to wrestling during this period, despite it being what I consider " the wrestling dark ages " 

From 2012ish... The Shield, CM Punk, AJ Lee, etc if where my love for the business really started to pick back up for me again. And when NXT became the Indy hot bed that it did, that's when I really found myself the most invested in the product. For the last 18 months or so since Hunter's ascension to the throne, I've been a very happy fan for the most. Just prior to that, WWE was in a state. It was terrible. I've often called that period a circus, as it was just a bunch of Vince's clowns doing the same shit, week in, week out. Outside of the WWE, I was following NJPW and ROH casually and would always find a way to see the big shows. I followed The Elite, because Bullet Club was the coolest thing in wrestling and was convinced big, big things were happening outside the WWE... 

It's probably why I dislike AEW so much. WWE was terrible there for a long time, including during that period when NJPW was getting hot, and The Elite were over big time on social media. I had such high hopes for AEW, as they were handed the ' anti-playbook ' of what not to do, then somehow made a worse product. And they pretty much cannibalised the businesses around them. ROH was dead, TNA is an afterthought and NJPW has never recovered.  

I've continued to watch since 2000. I've never taken a break. Sure, there's been times where I didn't care if I missed a show or a PPV, or went a few weeks without seeing what was going on. But I've never quit.

WWE in my mind, is the best it's been in 20 years. It wouldn't be too difficult to book a Wrestlemania, where every match on the card could main event a minor PLE. 

Cool thread - I'm keen for a refresher and curious to see who got into this first.

I got into Pro Wrestling through my dad. It was something he was into and he'd usually have an episode of Nitro/Superstars on late at night before bed. Some of my earliest memories involve the Warrior in WCW and The Rock dropping a People's Elbow on D-Generation X. It was still my dad's thing, until one fateful trip to the video shop where there was nothing to rent except for WCW/nWo Revenge. I remember at a family gathering my cousins had a blast playing WCW/nWo World Tour so I thought I'd give it a go.

The rest they say is history.

I think everybody has their eureka moment with wrestling where they relate it to cartoons, soap operas, comic books etc. For me Pro Wrestling was video games come to life. That intro to WCW/nWo Revenge sold me on it and from that point on I wanted to learn everything I could. Family trips just became an excuse for my dad to tell me all about the nWo or what was going on in the WWF. When I tapped that resource out, I turned to the PC and started going on every Angelfire, GeoCities I could get Jeeves or Yahoo to recommend. It was a whole different world and I couldn't wait to get swept up in it.

So I've seen bits and pieces but I always consider the build up to Road Wild '99 as my introduction to Pro Wrestling. It was around this time guys like Hogan, Goldberg, Luger, Bret were all making their returns so it was an exciting time to get into the product. Around this time you also had the WWF in the midst of launching SmackDown and ECW was about to launch TNN so there was plenty of buzz around that time.

I gravitated towards WCW purely because that's all we had access to on Optus. The only way I could catch the WWF was through my grandparent's Austar and that would only be during long weekends or school holidays. I thought both shows had their own strengths and weaknesses and it wasn't so much WWF > WCW or 'WCW was real rasslin!' as much as I gravitated towards certain guys. Guys like Goldberg, Diamond Dallas Page, Billy Kidman, Booker T, Mankind, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Chris Jericho, Edge & Christian etc. were my faves.

My interest was rocked in late 1999 when WCW put on Starrcade. I was just so disappointed with the way the main event turned out and the aftermath that I really began to question whether this was for me. Even the video games, the things that hooked me into the industry in the first place were really underwhelming at this time and very few games have disappointed me as much as WCW Mayhem. I stuck with it, starting digging through the archives and renting more tapes and watching old syndicated Thunders and Saturday Night on this new cable TV channel that premiered.

My dad had lost interest in Pro Wrestling around this point, but was still keen to see Nitro so he bought tickets for us and one of my mates to attend the show here. At that point I was a far more casual fan, but that re-ignited my interest until Totally Buff 'retired' Goldberg, I wouldn't watch Nitro again until the finale.

Then around 2001, Optus picked up Fox Sports which happened to have RAW. This was a god-send because RAW was on Tuesday nights only hours after the US broadcast - it sure beat having to wait until Saturday to watch the show. This was around the Invasion era and was when I started to lurk on message boards and gravitate towards more of the smark favourites like RVD, Jericho, Angle, Benoit and for a brief period HHH.

In 2002 I finally made the plunge and bought WWF No Mercy on the N64 and WWE SmackDown Shut Your Mouth. Both games were really pivotal as I was constantly looking for new talent to make CAWs of and gave me the tools to book my own cards. It was around this time I first came across PW.com and remember c talking up Nick Mondo and he became my Hardcore Champion.

My interest in Pro Wrestling would diminish over the years and it was usually just the video games or the DVDs that would keep me coming back. I didn't really watch a ton of Pro Wrestling outside of WWECW in 2007, but that would change when Jericho would come back. Then it was like hit after hit, Jericho would return, Jeff Hardy got over, John Cena returned and I was actually into it, CM Punk was getting pushed, The Dirt Sheets changed how wrestlers would use the internet to get themselves over and TNA was finally back on Australian TV. With all this happening, I joined PW...only to promptly get banned for not posting enough. I made a comeback and would only chime in on HOW while reading the life and times of vendrell in OT.

It was like clockwork for a minute there. Usually I'd get into Pro Wrestling around the summer, I'd watch until Wrestlemania, leave disappointed and only watch casually from that point on. That changed in late 2010 when I discovered JustinTV and streaming. Being able to watch old RAW/Nitro/Saturday Night tapings really sparked an interest and all of a sudden from Survivor Series 2010 till Royal Rumble 2014 I was hooked. It wasn't just the WWE either it was TNA, ROH, NJPW, PWG whatever I could get my hands on. PW picked up around this time, we started getting better posters and I started checking out other communities like PWO.

Then the Rumble happened, Punk left the company and it appeared that the WWE were about to fumble their biggest story in Daniel Bryan. That whole PPV just left me cold and I lost a lot of that emotional investment. The WWE wasn't going to pretend to be a meritocracy, it was just going to book part-timers and their own people, everyone else be damned.

 This was when wrestling podcasts started becoming a thing and that was where a lot of my interest went to. I'd listen to the Austin, Jericho, Cornette, Wrestling Observers and PWO adjacent podcasts and usually those would inspire me to keep up to date with the shows. This all peaked around 2016 and I remember being set for a huge 2017 only for PW to go down and Pro Wrestling became less of a priority behind video games which I really got into around that time.

PW rebooted here, I didn't think we'd still be here all these years later but we're nothing if not stubborn. In 2018 I was looking to do another 1999 esque project but with the build-up to Halloween Havoc 1998 and all these years later I'm no closer to finishing it. That project got me to think more deeply about Pro Wrestling and stop trying to lump everything as good or bad which is a difficult challenge.

Not long after, AEW debuted. This is easily the most exciting thing to happen to the industry since I've been following, but it's really interesting to see how much it's affected the landscape. Cornette's podcast went from largely an enjoyable trip down memory lane with the odd observations on modern wrestling to a straight up Critical Drinker takedown on Pro Wrestling. On the flip-side Alvarez & Meltzer slop everything down and only have issues when the Elite are upset.

It makes it difficult to engage with especially as I grow older. I try to keep an open mind and appreciate it for what it is rather than what it should be but it can become frustrating when the show feels like it's spinning it's wheels and you can't call it out without offending somebody. Twitter and reddit is an utter cespool and it's leaked into a few message boards as well.

Still, I'd say I'm as into Pro Wrestling as I was when I was younger, it's been a trip and I enjoy kicking it and discussing it all with you.

Nov 18, 2022 2:32:51 GMT @ness said:

2002 - late 2003: I wasn't really watching it as seriously as I was, but I still followed bits of IWC and read about results.

Was the brand extension to blame? Rock going to Hollywood and Austin taking his ball and going home? Was it a case of the zeitgeist shifting or a combination of factors? '02 was a strange case where I was consuming as much Pro Wrestling as ever but at the same time watching Ric Flair vs. Hulk Hogan triggered some WCW 2000 PTSD - if they brought back the Yapapi Strap match I would have tapped out well before Katie Vick.

And yet we got HBK, we got the Elimination Chamber, we got three minute warnings and we got RVD/Eddie in a ladder.

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

And that's not even including the SmackDown Six which I completely missed as it was happening.

Nov 18, 2022 2:32:51 GMT @ness said:

2014-Whenever Roode/Nakamura were stinking up the joint on Takeovers: I was growing bored of wrestling again but the "chic" era of NXT really popped with me.

So 2016-17? I think that was the beginning of the end for me as well and I started watching TNA because I felt the vast majority would be in the WWE. I wasn't wrong either - Cody Rhodes, Drew McIntyre, Bobby Lashley, LA Knight, The Hardy Boyz, Chelsea Green all made bigger ways.

I think Undisputed Era was the beginning of the end for me, especially by 2019/20. They were chasing those six stars and going bonkers with those shocked faced kick-outs and I thought they lost that mixture between indie talents and up and coming prospects. I was probably the only person who enjoyed the 2.0 change.

Mar 10, 2024 10:09:04 GMT NATH45 said:

I was also very much convinced TNA was the greatest thing ever. I was incredibility faithful to wrestling during this period, despite it being what I consider " the wrestling dark ages " 

I feel like this is something us Aussies have in common with English fans. TNA seems to be far more respected here than it is in the States and I think more risque content appealed more than the glossy over-produced WWE stuff. I think it filled a void that was left behind by WCW and fans were into AJ Styles, Beer Money, Motor City Machine Guns and Samoa Joe.

Meanwhile I don't remember too many WWE stars having that appeal. Like usually they'd have to draw on some star from the Attitude Era to name drop. From my experience The Undertaker was a go-to example and Jeff Hardy was pretty popular as well.

Mar 10, 2024 13:39:44 GMT Big Pete said:

Nov 18, 2022 2:32:51 GMT @ness said:

2002 - late 2003: I wasn't really watching it as seriously as I was, but I still followed bits of IWC and read about results.

Was the brand extension to blame? Rock going to Hollywood and Austin taking his ball and going home? Was it a case of the zeitgeist shifting or a combination of factors? '02 was a strange case where I was consuming as much Pro Wrestling as ever but at the same time watching Ric Flair vs. Hulk Hogan triggered some WCW 2000 PTSD - if they brought back the Yapapi Strap match I would have tapped out well before Katie Vick.

And yet we got HBK, we got the Elimination Chamber, we got three minute warnings and we got RVD/Eddie in a ladder.

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.

And that's not even including the SmackDown Six which I completely missed as it was happening.

Nov 18, 2022 2:32:51 GMT @ness said:

2014-Whenever Roode/Nakamura were stinking up the joint on Takeovers: I was growing bored of wrestling again but the "chic" era of NXT really popped with me.

So 2016-17? I think that was the beginning of the end for me as well and I started watching TNA because I felt the vast majority would be in the WWE. I wasn't wrong either - Cody Rhodes, Drew McIntyre, Bobby Lashley, LA Knight, The Hardy Boyz, Chelsea Green all made bigger ways.

I think Undisputed Era was the beginning of the end for me, especially by 2019/20. They were chasing those six stars and going bonkers with those shocked faced kick-outs and I thought they lost that mixture between indie talents and up and coming prospects. I was probably the only person who enjoyed the 2.0 change.

There's a lot of good stuff in 02/03 that I missed out on live, but once I got back into things I saw all the good shit. I'm sure losing the top guys and it being less "cool" just soured it on me for a while. So it became one of those hobbies that I kept to myself and fan interaction was a big reason why I loved it...

Yeah 2016 probably was when I started falling off completely as a fan. PW always keeps it in my mind, but I just can't find myself invested anymore. I think after NXT lost me I was mostly just checking out the various watchwrestling sites and watching certain segments. But even that grew old after a while. Toyed with the network a few times but never subbed for too long. Maybe my tastes were just evolving as I was more interested in talking about wrestling than actual wrestling, hence a more push towards docs and HOW.

Hate to say it but I need an extra level of excitement in my wrestling or something to hook me.

Attitude it was new and had the edge that teenager Ness needed.

Mid 2000s I was getting more invested in the workrate side so a down period but seeing certain guys helped. Could Benoit have killed it for me?

When I got into the indies they were pushing great wrestling plus edgier stuff since WWE went "pg". Yeah I was still loving the immature stuff. OMG JAY BRISCOE SAID LIL BITCH!!!

NXT was super exciting almost like underground ECW.

Just regular wrestling doesn't excite me.

Big Pete TNA got a lot of love here from Foxtel in retrospect.

When Foxtel briefly dropped WWE, it went all in on TNA. Despite being a PPV model, they would show the shows for free on Fox8 eventually. At some point by the mid to late 2000s, it was on at 8:30pm on a Saturday night. Which isn't the greatest of timeslots, but it's still prime time and would have captured a lot of younger fans.

*I overdid it as usual. Just can't help myself. May or may not come back to finish.

1987-1995: The Diehard Casual Years

Don't remember a time before I knew who Hulk Hogan was. The Hulkster was a household name on par with He-Man, George Washington, and Christopher Columbus. Wrestling was just the thing that he did. My cousins were always talking about wrestling. My friend Matt who lived 3 houses up was also a Wrestling Guy. Then there was the cartoon. And the kids in school. Wrestling was a hot topic. But my brother was more interested than I was at first. It honestly sounded barbaric to me based on the wild stories my cousins would tell. I also associated wrestling with The A-Team (which we weren't allowed to watch at home) due to the Mr. T connection. Which brings us to January 3, 1987. Matt couldn't stop talking about that night's Hogan/Orndorff main event. That, coupled with my brother's desire to become a Wrestling Guy, proved too much to ignore. We ended up spending the night at Matt's to watch SNME. My life would forever change on that night...

This dramatic match with a tie finish got me hooked. I had never seen anything like it. It also started me down the path of heel fandom. I felt sorry for poor Mr. Wonderful. "Why are the people being so mean to that poor man by booing him? What did he ever do to them? What did Hulk Hogan ever do for me? I am rooting for Mr. Wonderful!" And that's how I became a heel fan. Even as a youth I delighted in playing the contrarian lol. Only it wasn't long before I worked myself into a shoot by becoming a young Hogan hater. He always won! It was boring! My favorite wrestler was always a heel during this stretch- Hart Foundation, Honkytonk Man, Dibiase, Perfect, Taker, Flair, Narcissist, Lawler, Owen, Jarrett, etc. Then you had legends like Zbyszko, "Mountie" Jacques Rougeau and his two tag teams, Papa Shango, Midnight Express, Genius, Mr. Backlund, Funk, Borga, Yoko, Lord Regal, etc. Legends all. The bad boys were just more entertaining than the goodie two shoes brigade for the most part. Though it is worth noting I was more amenable to babyfaces outside of the WWF umbrella. In other promotions it was closer to a 50/50 split between the faces & heels I would root for.

Anyway, after Hogan/Orndorff came the build to Wrestlemania III so I was soon not just hooked but hooked for life. How could I not be? The Hart Foundation became my first favorites when I saw them beat the Bulldogs for the tag titles. I didn't even know titles could change hands! So I viewed this as a historic event on par with the Mets winning the World Series or the Giants winning the Super Bowl. The middle aged man who lived next to Matt was a mailman and a wrestling fan named Mr. Charlie who would serve as my PPV provider for the next few years. We watched WM 3 a day or so late on tape. It was magical even if I was bummed out when that extra strong midget snuck in the ring to help Hogan slam Andre.

My parents weren't wrestling fans, but they were good parents, so they tolerated our wrestling obsession. Watched with us on occasion in those early years, especially my dad. Bought us oodles of LJN figures. Chrismas 1990 was a Wrestling Christmas as I got a wrestling book and two wrestling tapes. They even took us to a show on Valentine's Day(!) 1987 with a Hogan/Kamala steel cage main. That show bombed hard. We were way up in the nosebleed section. Could barely see over the drunks in front of us. My brother was honestly too young to be there in the first place. In later years I got a distinct impression my parents did not care for the seedy, unwashed masses surrounding us. They flat out refused to ever take me to another wrestling event. Tragedy! SOMETHING must have happened at that show to make them so hostile to the idea. I just don't remember what it was. Sometime before July 4, 1987 my dad dropped the big bombshell by telling me wrestling was fake. Perhaps it was an attempt to curb my burgeoning obsession? If so, it didn't work. I was bummed out for about 5 minutes. Then I realized I didn't care. Star Wars was fake. Scooby Doo was fake. Alf was fake. Didn't make them any less awesome. 

For the next 8 years I'd call myself a diehard casual. What I mean by this is I watched all the wrestling I could find, but didn't get to watch all the wrestling I wanted to. Life often got in the way. My brother and I played a lot of sports which often conflicted with my beloved wrestling. Pretty sure I sat out the 1989 soccer season just to watch more wrestling and came *this close* to doing the same in '92 before giving into peer pressure at the last minute. Wanted to quit lacrosse for years, too. But my dad wouldn't let me because that was my "ticket to college." I wasn't even that good! Why can't you just let me watch muh rasslin' and be happy! Plus I was young enough to still be beholden to the whims of my parents. Sometimes I got dragged shopping with my slowpoke mom. Other times it was to visit this or that relative. In later years when my brother went off wrestling, he might pester me to do something else during my precious WWF time. You guys have no idea how many hoops I jumped through to watch my beloved. I came up with plans and contingency plans. I was darn good at it too. But my best laid plans still went awry from time to time and then I'd be like an addict jonesin' for a fix. I'm sure I'd start tweaking and acting like a right pill when forced to miss out on my weekly dose of jobber matches. 

Another reason I consider myself a casual during this period is because I knew nothing about the inner workings of wrestling. I didn't even know Vince was in charge until like 1994! Until then I thought Jack Tunney was the boss! I was a total sports entertainment guy who was all about the promos, characters/gimmicks, entrances, and angles. Workrate shmorkrate. I didn't really distinguish between good matches and bad ones. Not consciously anyway. A good match was when my guy won, and a bad match was when my guy lost. Now subconsciously I must have known Mr. Perfect was "better" than Hacksaw Jim Duggan, but I wouldn't have had the words for it. If that makes sense? Anyway, the GOAT, though I loathed him with every fiber of my being, was obviously Hulk Hogan with Ultimate Warrior being runner up. Had to respect those guys even if I rooted against them every single time. That made them no different their contemporaries in Jordan, Montana, Tyson, and Laettner. All were the best in their respective business.

Dumb as I was in regard to "good matches" and workrate, I did have a good grasp on booking from a young age. And did my own booking for my many, many wrestling figure leagues.

I was a WWFirster, but also a wrestling fanatic, so I watched all the wrestling I could fine- NWA, Watts UWF, GLOW, AWA, USWA Texas, USWA Tennessee, LPWA, GWF, WCW, AWF. We had a great channel in DC 50 which played wrestling every weeknight at 6 p.m. for a few years in the early 90s. Only problem was the only tv in the house that got that channel was in my parents' bedroom. So I wasn't always able to watch (and the USWA's sucked anyway). Thursday was my big night for "doing my homework" in there so I could watch AWA and later LPWA. I was pretty regular NWA viewer in the late 80s before losing track of it for a few years until coming back in a big way in 93-94 when it was now called WCW. Oh, we also didn't have cable. This is big. Cable kids vs. non-cable kids was a real underrated divide in late 20th century America. Even sans cable we got a ton of wrestling on tv though.

The aforementioned Mr. Charlie was our PPV provider from WM 3-WM 7. A few we watched live at his house, but most we got on tape a day or two later. Things slowed down after WM 7. That's when my brother turned on wrestling for the first time. Royal Rumble 92-July 4, 1993 marked the first time I didn't have any wrestling fan friends. Luger slamming Yoko made it cool again in my neighborhood. Saw Summerslam 93 & Survivor Series 93 on tape a day or two later through this guy Joey who was a friend of my friend Matt The IRS Fan. Sometimes I'd watch Superstars at Matt's house when my parents or brother were cramping my style. I could never get him into WCW though. 

We had a few wrestling video games, and I had two wrestling books, but we rarely rented wrestling tapes (think just 'Mania 1 & 2 some time before June 1990), and for some reason I had largely no sold wrestling magazines up to this point. That all changes in the Summer of '95...

Mar 11, 2024 16:46:42 GMT Baker said:

*I overdid it as usual. Just can't help myself. May or may not come back to finish.

Wrong you under-did it, if anything you didn't even get to the best part! Anyone who's familiar with Baker lore knows it doesn't get good until 1995/96. Still, it was good to get a refresher on the early years. I was never quite sure where it all began and if you told me Wrestlemania IV with the big tournament - I would have believed you.

Mar 11, 2024 16:46:42 GMT Baker said:

Chrismas 1990 was a Wrestling Christmas as I got a wrestling book and two wrestling tapes.

Do you remember what they were specifically?

Mar 11, 2024 16:46:42 GMT Baker said:

Dumb as I was in regard to "good matches" and workrate, I did have a good grasp on booking from a young age. And did my own booking in my many, many wrestling figure leagues.

Reading through it seems like you're downplaying things just a little. Didn't Lawlermania begin circa 91?92? I need to find that thread again and get the rundown.

Mar 10, 2024 20:55:46 GMT NATH45 said:

Big Pete TNA got a lot of love here from Foxtel in retrospect.

When Foxtel briefly dropped WWE, it went all in on TNA. Despite being a PPV model, they would show the shows for free on Fox8 eventually. At some point by the mid to late 2000s, it was on at 8:30pm on a Saturday night. Which isn't the greatest of timeslots, but it's still prime time and would have captured a lot of younger fans.

I'm still jealous you got to watch NWA-TNA back in 2002/03. I remember the ads for the promotion but could have sworn they were for Main Event (aka the PPV subscriber channel) because I was keen to see Amazing Red, Jerry Lynn, Scott Hall, Curt Hennig and all the other random WCW/WWF guys in action.

The rumour I heard is that TNA was actually rating really well down here, but the WWE pulled a them or us and TNA started finding itself on lesser channels like Fuel and Main Event before disappearing altogether. TBH, by the time AJ Styles leaves TNA in 2013, it's pretty much all over.

Mar 11, 2024 18:04:39 GMT Big Pete said:

Mar 10, 2024 20:55:46 GMT NATH45 said:

Big Pete TNA got a lot of love here from Foxtel in retrospect.

When Foxtel briefly dropped WWE, it went all in on TNA. Despite being a PPV model, they would show the shows for free on Fox8 eventually. At some point by the mid to late 2000s, it was on at 8:30pm on a Saturday night. Which isn't the greatest of timeslots, but it's still prime time and would have captured a lot of younger fans.

I'm still jealous you got to watch NWA-TNA back in 2002/03. I remember the ads for the promotion but could have sworn they were for Main Event (aka the PPV subscriber channel) because I was keen to see Amazing Red, Jerry Lynn, Scott Hall, Curt Hennig and all the other random WCW/WWF guys in action.

The rumour I heard is that TNA was actually rating really well down here, but the WWE pulled a them or us and TNA started finding itself on lesser channels like Fuel and Main Event before disappearing altogether. TBH, by the time AJ Styles leaves TNA in 2013, it's pretty much all over.

They showed the first PPVs on Main Event. I actually ordered the first PPV that was available in Australia, it wasn't their actual first show. And it wasn't great.

Later, when Smackdown disappeared for a while, they started showing versions of the PPVs on Fox8. I remember seeing the same 6 man tag with Styles and Lynn, and maybe Red for weeks.

I remember Foxtel claimed the " WWE Season was over " for the year, but hey kids if you like wrestling, here's NWA TNA! And, IIRC, I don't think it lasted long anyway. Maybe a year or so.

I remember we pretty much missed The Smackdown 6 era, and it came back when Smackdown had B show written all over it.

I reckon TNA disappeared outside of the PPV probably until the mid to late 2000s and had a run on Fox8, then Fuel. Then very briefly in the early morning, it was on Main Event for free because, I guess there weren't any places left and a WWE would kick it off air shortly after.

Mar 11, 2024 17:37:34 GMT Big Pete said:

Mar 11, 2024 16:46:42 GMT Baker said:

*I overdid it as usual. Just can't help myself. May or may not come back to finish.

1. Wrong you under-did it, if anything you didn't even get to the best part! Anyone who's familiar with Baker lore knows it doesn't get good until 1995/96. Still, it was good to get a refresher on the early years. I was never quite sure where it all began and if you told me Wrestlemania IV with the big tournament - I would have believed you.

Mar 11, 2024 16:46:42 GMT Baker said:

Christmas 1990 was a Wrestling Christmas as I got a wrestling book and two wrestling tapes.

2. Do you remember what they were specifically?

Mar 11, 2024 16:46:42 GMT Baker said:

Dumb as I was in regard to "good matches" and workrate, I did have a good grasp on booking from a young age. And did my own booking in my many, many wrestling figure leagues.

3. Reading through it seems like you're downplaying things just a little. Didn't Lawlermania begin circa 91?92? I need to find that thread again and get the rundown.

1. Well now I'll have to continue. Golden Age tonight. My body is ready.

2. Of course. George Napolitano's Pictorial History of Wrestling, a weird Crockett commercial tape from 83-84, and a mid 80s AWA commercial tape specializing in tag teams. Pic and videos hiding behind the spoiler tag.

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}

3. Lawlermania I wasn't until February 15, 1997. The seeds for Lawlermania weren't even planted until late 95-early 96. First Lawlermania was our 137th USWA event iirc. There were many, many leagues before that, and others still running opposite USWA. That's why Lawlermania was so big! It was something that came about organically after years of build. I honestly sort of lucked into it not unlike WWF did with Undertaker's Streak.

Early 1991 was the "Chalkboard League" headlined by Abruzzi Slugger, 8th Wonder of the World, Boston Strongman, and Kim Chee. This one revolved around blind picks to make the matches and a Top 10 written on a chalkboard. A chalkboard we coincidentally got during that aforementioned magical Christmas of 1990. My brother did this one with me.

The "Lumberjack Jess League" started sometime after April 28, 1992 and ran to the Summer of 95. This was something I did by myself...in the basement...when nobody else was around. At least until my cousin became a wresting fan in late 94. Then I had a socially acceptable excuse to play with my toys again in public. This was my big thing even if it was also my deep, dark secret. I spent entirely too much time thinking up characters and storylines and would write it all down in a notebook(s). It was basically proto-fanfic. I'd give anything to rediscover this notebook(s) one day. I was going to bring this back last year in PW Fanfic but poofed on it before I got to writing the first show. I did write a bunch of (largely made) history though! All that history stuff, while not historically accurate, was inspired by other wrestling figure leagues.

Fun Fact: My two all time favorite matches up to mid 95 were Andre/Hogan at The Main Event and Slaughter/Warrior at Royal Rumble 1991. While the "objective best" would have been Warrior/Hogan at WM 6 likely followed by Steamboat/Savage at WM 3. Two rare occasions when I remember thinking "that was a great match." First wrestler who I realized was bad at wrestling regardless of push was Sid Justice during his WWF run. OK, so I guess I wasn't a total mark after all.

I only knew of wrestling before 98 because my uncle must've been a big fan because all his hand me downs were wrestling related. I had a ring and all those unposable rubber figures. I had no idea about wrestling rules I was doing 10 counts inside the ring for pins like a total JOBBER.

Mar 11, 2024 18:52:27 GMT NATH45 said:

Mar 11, 2024 18:04:39 GMT Big Pete said:

I'm still jealous you got to watch NWA-TNA back in 2002/03. I remember the ads for the promotion but could have sworn they were for Main Event (aka the PPV subscriber channel) because I was keen to see Amazing Red, Jerry Lynn, Scott Hall, Curt Hennig and all the other random WCW/WWF guys in action.

The rumour I heard is that TNA was actually rating really well down here, but the WWE pulled a them or us and TNA started finding itself on lesser channels like Fuel and Main Event before disappearing altogether. TBH, by the time AJ Styles leaves TNA in 2013, it's pretty much all over.

They showed the first PPVs on Main Event. I actually ordered the first PPV that was available in Australia, it wasn't their actual first show. And it wasn't great.

Later, when Smackdown disappeared for a while, they started showing versions of the PPVs on Fox8. I remember seeing the same 6 man tag with Styles and Lynn, and maybe Red for weeks.

I remember Foxtel claimed the " WWE Season was over " for the year, but hey kids if you like wrestling, here's NWA TNA! And, IIRC, I don't think it lasted long anyway. Maybe a year or so.

I remember we pretty much missed The Smackdown 6 era, and it came back when Smackdown had B show written all over it.

I reckon TNA disappeared outside of the PPV probably until the mid to late 2000s and had a run on Fox8, then Fuel. Then very briefly in the early morning, it was on Main Event for free because, I guess there weren't any places left and a WWE would kick it off air shortly after.

So digging online, NWA-TNA debuted on the 8th of March 2003 on Fox 8. It was a one hour broadcast and they'd split one weekly PPV across two weeks of television. Apparantly they started replaying episodes after awhile so it wasn't a huge run and when SmackDown returned in August of 03 it moved to a different timeslot before being cancelled altogether.

We basically caught the tail end of SmackDown's golden run. Fortunately we got it just in time for the Angle/Lesnar Iron Man match and Brock had really come into his own since he was last on Aussie TV. Once Brock left, that's when things really fell off a cliff.

Fast forward and while traditional broadcast TV is basically dead, it's nice that we have that dedicated WWE Channel and AEW is on ESPN. I still get a thrill out of watching random WWF, ECW, WCW and even WCCW shows late at night. Is it just me, or is AEW on a lot less than when it first started? It seemed like they had replays on every other hour, now it seems more one and done. No Collision either which is a bummer.

Fun Fact: My two all time favorite matches up to mid 95 were Andre/Hogan at The Main Event and Slaughter/Warrior at Royal Rumble 1991. While the "objective best" would have been Warrior/Hogan at WM 6 likely followed by Steamboat/Savage at WM 3. Two rare occasions when I remember thinking "that was a great match." First wrestler who I realized was bad at wrestling regardless of push was Sid Justice during his WWF run. OK, so I guess I wasn't a total mark after all.

I wonder how much of that was the sign of the times? Sure you were pretty young when you got into Pro Wrestling but the concept of a quality match was still pretty new. We were barely beginning to see that shift from making it look legitimate to entertaining and it's not like the dirt sheets were that prevelant. By the time I got into Pro Wrestling, not only was internet culture rife, but you had the Cruiserweights who were clearly booked to pick up the slack for the main event.

Also did those tapes influence you at all? You were primarily a WWF fan, right? Did watching Steamboat and Youngblood in action make you think that the NWA maybe a better in-ring promotion?

I can't believe I've been living a lie this entire time. I thought Lawlermania WAS the promotion, not the event.

Grew up in a wrestling family. Lived with Grandpa who was a former WWWF jobber and ref. Growing up had captain lou and the wild Samoans, slaughter and others visiting from time to time. So wrestling was always on TV, and we went to a lot of smaller shows and pics of me with a bunch of guys are somewhere in family photo books.

Earliest wrestling memory was seeing WM II and the cage match. Remembering be a big Macho Man fan early, and a fan of the Rockers and Strike Force. Also love Million Dollar Man and Greg the Hammer Valentine. Watch until about the time Flair joined the WWE. Just got too cartoonish.

Fast forward to 1999. Friend Shawn was a die hard ECW fan and showed me King of the Deathmatch 1995 and Cactus Jack and was hooked on the violence. Checked out the next WWE PPV and it was Rock vs Foley I Quit and again blown away by the violence. Did WWE stuff hard for two years, but then started to get bored a bit as they toned down the insanity. Started spend money on tapes instead of PPVs and got into RFvideo. Got some tapes of Benoit, Jericho, All Japan and Deathmatches. Then RF started to fav about CZW, so got Unfuckingbelievable and Best of the Best and moved on to indy shit. Briscoes, Red and Ruckus were doing high flying shit I ever seen, and Mondo and Kasai were psychopaths. Then when RF opened Ring of Honor followed both CZW and RoH as mains.

When CZW would go to Matt Burns, they brought in Chikara guys. Chikara shit was so weird, I started to follow them and that was my main fed afterwards. RoH got stale over time as people got signed up, and CZW lost all their top guys when Burns left, but Chikara kept getting better with their slapstick style, over the top angles and quality of guys. Stayed with them until the end of the Flood arc. After that guys started to leave and they slowly lost their appeal. Went to AEW after when they started. And that is where I am now.

While AEW is fun, nothing will ever beat peak Chikara for me. They just were a fun fed, with some amazing ideas like Cibernetico and the insane Flood storyline that tied together almost a decade worth of shit.

Mar 12, 2024 12:55:35 GMT Big Pete said:

Fun Fact: My two all time favorite matches up to mid 95 were Andre/Hogan at The Main Event and Slaughter/Warrior at Royal Rumble 1991. While the "objective best" would have been Warrior/Hogan at WM 6 likely followed by Steamboat/Savage at WM 3. Two rare occasions when I remember thinking "that was a great match." First wrestler who I realized was bad at wrestling regardless of push was Sid Justice during his WWF run. OK, so I guess I wasn't a total mark after all.

I wonder how much of that was the sign of the times? Sure you were pretty young when you got into Pro Wrestling but the concept of a quality match was still pretty new. We were barely beginning to see that shift from making it look legitimate to entertaining and it's not like the dirt sheets were that prevelant. By the time I got into Pro Wrestling, not only was internet culture rife, but you had the Cruiserweights who were clearly booked to pick up the slack for the main event.

You're right. Fan expectations did change with the times. Was thinking about this even before your post and it may have more to do with a simple lack of good matches on tv than anything to do with me not appreciating a good match. You have to remember this was when most matches were Star vs. Jobber. I only saw 2 WWF pay per views in 4 years and had never seen a single WCW pay per view up to this point. I had only watched 2 complete Raw matches in my life and not much WCW Saturday Night either. So there's a chance I only saw like 25-30 good matches during my first 8.5 years as a wrestling fan  Once made a post chronicling them. 

1. Also did those tapes influence you at all? 2. You were primarily a WWF fan, right? 3. Did watching Steamboat and Youngblood in action make you think that the NWA maybe a better in-ring promotion?

1. Yes. They caused me to think classic AWA was a promotion full of boring old men feuding over the most boring of moves- the sleeper. That Gagne/Bockwinkel tag match built around who had the better sleeper prejudiced me against Bock for 15-20 years and Verne for closer to 25-30. Then you had the Freebirds. Yuck! Not enough Larry Legend on that AWA tape. Heck, I'd have settled for "The Milkman."

The NWA tape wasn't much better. Though I appreciated receiving them because "yay wrestling," both honestly sat around collecting dust for a good 5 years before we busted them out one weekend during the 95-96 wrestling boom. The AWA tape still sucked but we got some enjoyment out of the NWA tape this time around. Slater/M. Youngblood was a good little match and Stan Hansen won us over (especially my brother) by hitting the hardest chop we had ever seen (we were already Flair Chop marks). The other wrestling tape I had was a collection of early 1988 WWF stuff I got in a trade with Matt The IRS Fan around '94. This tape had the aforementioned Andre/Hogan title change and the Dino Bravo bench press angle. So you know that became my go to wrestling tape of the 3. Also got a book in that steal of a deal with Matt. Pretty sure this is it...

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}{Spoiler}

2. Yep. But I did watch and appreciate the other/lesser promotions. In particular I was a big fan of late 87-89 NWA, 89-90 AWA, and especially 93-94 WCW until Hogan came in and ruined it for a year.

3. Nope. Not in 90-91 or during the 95-96 rediscovery. 

I can't believe I've been living a lie this entire time. I thought Lawlermania WAS the promotion, not the event.

An easy mistake to make. Lawlermania took place every 8th event iirc. Other events included Wrestlefest, Rampage, Lethal Lottery, World War III, Crockett Cup...and I forget the other 2. Maybe Lawlermania was every 6th event? Idk. It was a long time ago.
===========
I could stick in this era for many more (lengthy) posts- The 3 most headscratching booking decisions (Lex depush +Bret & Diesel superpushes). The back to back short-lived summer booms of 93-94. Various stories of kids (and a few adults) talking wrestling. Mr. Charlie smartening me up a teeny tiny bit. Etc. But I know I'll burn myself out long before reaching the Glory Days of 95-200? if I stay stuck in this era.

Big Pete, I feel you. AEW seems to be on a lot less than when it started. It didn't matter what time of day, I could go to ESPN/2 scroll back a few hours, and there it was available to stream. They also said the PPV's would make it to ESPN/2 eventually on delay. I think a Revolution was on EPSN, but has disappeared and ALL IN LONDON is the only PPV I can find for AEW on Foxtel. Surely in terms of ratings, it wouldn't be very high.. but then again, this is a network that shows the World Tetris Championships, so the bar is low.

Has AEW captured the hearts and minds of casual Aussie fans? Probably not. Being on ESPN might have something to do with it, as opposed to being on one of the flagship channels.

The WWE Channel is the best thing to ever happen to wrestling fans in Australia. I routinely find myself watching old PPVs, old Nitros, Smackdowns, etc... as we speak, I'm watching old NXT shows from 2012 and wondering how this thing ever got off the ground, the crowd is dead and there isn't a star in sight. I left the room for 2 minutes and heard Drew McIntyre's voice bitching about Seth Rollins in 2012 and I thought RAW 2024 was on.

Alright let's see if I can condense this into just the high points. Most of what I mention here has been elaborated on elsewhere anyway.

Golden Age: Summer 1995-Spring 2001

WWF was cooking in the summer of '95. Jean Pierre Lafitte & Hunter Hearst Helmsley were fun gimmicks in the midst of long winning streaks. Goldust & Dean Douglas vignettes had started airing. Horowitz Won. Camp Cornette would reach full strength with the addition of Bulldog. This was my kind of wrestling. Yeah, Diesel on top sucked, but I had rarely liked the WWF Champion anyway. WCW was finally watchable again after a rough year thanks to the Blue Bloods and those amusing Dungeon of Doom segments. Pretty soon they'd bring in a bunch of cool young talent, repackage Orndorff into something Wonderful, and reform the Horsemen. Things were picking up in the Big Two.

But what really puts this period over the top was making a bunch of new friends that summer who were as into wrestling as I was. Now aside from 18 months in 92-93 I had always had wrestling fan friends. Had a knack for finding them. Didn't matter if we had nothing else in common. If you were a wrestling fan, you were cool in my book. They were my kind of people. But this group was next level. We would become inseparable over the next 4 years with wrestling being a major (if not THE major) topic of conversation during that period.

Summerslam 95 was my first PPV in almost 2 years and my first live PPV in at least 6. Next 8+ years I'd be a regular PPV watcher, though I did not catch every single one. Weekend after Summerslam was Labor Day weekend when the wrestling figures were introduced to the masses. They got over huge. This was huge in general as it would ultimately lead to Lawlermania and everything that entailed. Think the week after that was the first Superstars "party" at my house. Week after that I watched my first ever WCW PPV. It was also my first War Games. Day after that I watched what I believe is my first ever full episode of Raw and discovered Nitro was a thing in the process. House Wrestling after school was a huge deal during the 95-96 school year. So much so that I didn't go out for soccer and baseball, much to the consternation of many. After exhausting all the wrestling tapes we collectively owned, weekend wrestling tape rentals became a thing. I was introduced to so much great wrestling during this stretch. Just classic after classic every weekend. Like an injection of all the wrestling from the previous decade. This went on for a year or two until we exhausted the entire wrestling sections of 2 video stores. Went to Survivor Series 95. Mind blown. That's when I decided I wanted to become a bad guy wrestler when I grew up. Raw the next night was an all timer of an episode. I believe that 11/20/95 episode is the one that started my streak of not missing an episode of Raw for a few years. And I didn't even have cable! IYH December was another all timer of a show that I watched about a zillion times on tape. Everybody knows 95-96 is my favorite period in wrestling history. Well, I think if I had to pick just one month to revisit/re-live it just might be December 1995. Peak of the peak.

Then Christmas Day my cousin brought over THE Apter Mag that got me hooked on Apter Mags. I would become a wrestling magazine fanatic over the next year or so, buying many, and spending literal hours studying the ones I didn't buy in 3 local markets. Then I got my hands on a PWI 500 one of my friends had and bought the 1996 PWI Almanac. I didn't just read this stuff. I studied it. Studied it with the zeal of a scholar pouring over a sacred text. Makes sense since this was rapidly becoming my religion. I had no idea wrestling existed outside of what was shown on tv. Until now I never bothered to think about where wrestlers went when they disappeared from tv. Likely would have assumed they went back to being mounties, tax collectors, hog farmers, voodoo priests, etc. Most of the time I didn't even realize they were gone anyway. Out of sight, out of mind for the most part. Repackaged wrestlers often snuck by me as well. Hadn't recognized IRS & HOG. And I liked those guys as Rotunda & Shanghai! Forgot Shane Douglas had ever even existed by the time The Dean came along. So I was fascinated by all these wrestlers and promotions- USWA, SMW, ECW, etc. Not to mention wrestling in other countries. I had no idea Mexican wrestling existed and a part of me thought Japanese wrestling was probably a work created by WCW to make them seem more global. Like I was pretty sure Great Muta was just some Korean-American from Arkansas or whatever. The world of wrestling was far vaster and more interesting than I had ever realized. I wanted to know every wrestler & promotion past & present. I had always been a stats/awards mark going back to my days as a real sports fan so now I became fascinated by PWI rankings, PWI Awards, title reigns, and all that stuff. I was forever consulting my 1996 PWI Almanac (aka my Bible). This is also during the period where Flair became my all time favorite wrestler* and GOAT choice. Up to this point I didn't have an all time favorite and thought Hogan was a no brainer for the GOAT. 

At some point in '96 my best friend Rick and I decided we were going to become pro wrestlers. It was honestly the only thing I had wanted to do with my life since Survivor Series '95. Never going through with it is probably my biggest regret. The plan was his grandmother would pay for him and a friend (me) to take a trip anywhere in the world once he graduated high school. There only was one choice. We would go to "The Wrestling Capital of the World" Memphis, Tennessee where by sheer pluck and moxie we would not only magically find Jerry Lawler, but convince The King to train us. (Later we would switch the plan to Calgary and the Harts) This plan worked perfectly in theory. Since I was older than Rick, I could humor my parents (and have something to fall back on if the wrestling thing failed) by going to stupid college while waiting for him to graduate high school. Then, when the time came, I could spill the beans about my wrestling dreams and use the time I had already put in at college as leverage to do what I wanted. It made sense in theory! Alas, Rick never graduated high school. His mom sent him away to military school after he got into some sort of trouble (I never pried), and he ended up getting his GED there. Meaning no trip from a grandmother who may or may not even have offered the deal in the first place (in later years I became skeptical of this woman I never even met). It was never quite the same between us once Rick got sent away. We were still friends for another year-year and a half, but it was somehow different.

Anyway, I got ahead of myself. Let's backtrack. Goldust, Camp Cornette & The Horsemen were my main men in '96 while the NWO & Michaels were the worst. August 96 I discovered a local wrestling radio show. That would become a huge thing over the next year or so. One day I'll have to make a detailed post about it. I became obsessed with the Monday night ratings. They were only slightly more important than life and death. I was Team WWF all the way and would go off WCW for good in August 96 because I couldn't take anymore Hogan on top and everybody should already know that story by now. AWF returned in September to become our new go to alternative promotion. It was awful. We knew that. But it was non-Evil Empire wrestling. So we watched. I swear I could feel wrestling picking up steam even before the NWO angle. More and more kids were talking about it, not just in my hyper local wrestling obsessed neighborhood, but in school as well.

April 1997 I watched my first ECW show in Barely Legal. Mind blown! Loved all the Hart Foundation stuff & Three Faces of Foley. Hated Austin & Michaels with a burning passion usually only reserved for WCW sellouts. August 97 I went online for the first time at the library. Naturally the very first place I went on the internet was prowrestling.com. That October I discovered a free wrestling hotline that provided daily scoopz. Ordered a couple tapes from this guy as well. This is also where I first heard the Bret Hart rumors. I didn't want to believe. The Montreal Screwjob was a major punch to the gut. But after some soul searching, I decided to stay loyal to my beloved WWF. My mom, brother, or both, got me a subscription to The Wrestler for Christmas. Unfortunately getting on the internet a few months later would render the mags obsolete in a way the radio show & free hotline hadn't fully done. Well, except for the PWI 500/Year End Awards. Those issues still ruled. 

It had been growing for a few years and 1998 was the year wrestling really blew up with the masses. It became a big topic of conversation at my first "real" job which I started the previous August. As The Wrestling Guy I felt vindicated that the world's greatest form of entertainment was finally being perceived as "cool" in the way it frankly always should have been. Oh well. Better late than never. WWF had fought back to a 50/50 split with the Evil Empire and would overtake them before the year was over. Got online in February. That was a major game changer. Bigger even than discovering the Apter Mags. Spent roughly 98% of my internet time talking wrestling in the AOL Chatrooms & Boards. Ordered a bunch of ECW & classic NWA tapes. Ordered a few Japanese wrestling tapes as well. Finally made it to my first live Raw in May. It ruled. Got Shotgun on tv in June, I think it was. I was a Shotgun Guy just as I had been a Superstars Guy back in the day. Got my license that summer. Went to my first indie show in October and 2nd in December. Started following the indies more closely now that I was online. Memphis PPW & California's APW were my two biggies. Rock & Foley were my main guys with Snow, Owen, Funk & Taker following close behind. Austin & DX could still stick it. 

1999 I started going to ECW shows. Went to 6 that year. Was super duper hyped about the TNN deal. Thought they'd soon surpass WCW to become #2. Went to a bunch of MCW shows as well. Usually went to both _CW's with my cousin. Sometimes we had internet at home and sometimes we didn't. When we didn't, I spent a lot of time in the school computer room or hitting up one of the three local libraries. WWF was still firing on all cylinders. Yeah, it got stupid sometimes, but 2 minutes later something awesome would happen that would make you forget about that one dumb thing and just ride the wave. By and large WWF could do no wrong. I honestly thought WWF was on its way to becoming on par with the NFL, MLB & NBA, and Wrestlemania would one day be equal to the Super Bowl. I genuinely believed this! Then Smackdown came around and that was a big deal too. Foley, Taz & RVD were my main men. The one downside of this year is The Clique of '95 started falling apart. Some zigged. Others zagged. While I just stayed the course doing more or less what I had always done. But by the end of the year, it was really just me and my cousin from the old guard. Most of the others still watched. We just weren't that close anymore. This is also the year Lawlermania finally died That "second childhood" my dad was always razzing me about lasted roughly 4 years and honestly may have been even better than the first. 

Losing the old clique didn't really matter much because I formed a new wrestling fan clique in 2000 with my coworkers. And some of them were girls! This girl Gina had a Wrestlemania party. Like a legit party with 20 or more people. Watched KOTR at this other girl Lauren's house. I'd been getting tapes of the pay per views I missed from her (or her boyfriend) for a while before this and her house would become my main PPV destination for the next year or two. WWF was still on fire. I actually liked 2000 WWF even more than 98 & 99 WWF. The booking was tighter, the wrestling better, and the raunchiness toned down. Angle was my main man, HHH the Best In The World, and the tag division was on fire in a way it hadn't been since the late 80s. This was the year I got into the territories. Ordered a lot of Memphis, Mid South/UWF, and SMW tapes from McAdam. You could even say Lawlermania lived on in that way. Did turn on ECW real hard though. I was more or less done with them by August when they screwed over my boy Corino. Still went to 2 shows earlier in the year though. WOW replaced in ECW as my contemporary #2 promotion. It was bad. I was aware of that. But at least it was bad in a fun, campy, charming sort of way. Plus Lana Star ruled. On a sad note, my cousin turned hard on wrestling this year. He went from still a hardcore fan in April to barely caring by July to done with wrestling in October. He just outgrew it as so many others before and since.

After much internal debate I decided Spring 2001 would be the best place to end this section. It was a season of change. WCW & ECW were no more. Even WOW was gone. Wrestlemania X7 marked the end of an era. On a personal level I started a new job in April and left my old one in June (worked both for 2 months). 

*To be continued...Maybe.

Lawlermania is more immortal than Hulkamania. Died? I think not.

Mar 14, 2024 14:09:20 GMT @ness said:

Lawlermania is more immortal than Hulkamania. Died? I think not.

Good point. Lawlermania has experienced a second life on PW. Keep it going if I ever disappear. I'd be cool with that added to my tombstone. "Here lies Baker. Was there for Sandman's ECW return. Creator of Lawlermania."

We Won! Now What? aka The Silver Age. also known as The Attitude Era Hangover: Spring 2001-October 2003

Things were just different now that the good guys won. Ruling the world ain't all it's cracked up to be. The fight was out of the dog. Invasion was the first time in 6 years, maybe 8, where I could remember thinking "it's not as good as it used to be." Also went a few months where I had to work Sunday nights which I meant I missed out on a few pay per views. Plus Raw on Mondays due to work. But fear not! Surely business would pick up once our savior Triple H returned. Other highlights included Kurt Angle becoming as great a worker as he was a character, RVD becoming an instant success after making his way to the big time, Austin's entertaining heel run, and Flair's return. My buddy Will called me at work when Flair returned and that in turn led to us turning Raw on at work every Monday for the next year and half or more. Also converted two former haters to wrestling fans this year and got back into the indies late in the year through ECWA and Christopher Daniels. I'd become a big indie guy over the next few years.

2002 kicked off with a bang as our lord and savior HHH returned. His return sadly peaked that night. It was all downhill from there. First half of the year was pretty dull beyond the usual bright spots (Angle, RVD, Flair). The brand split was weird and the roster an equally weird mix of olds, noobs from OVW, Attitude Era relics, and a smattering of guys who still had it. Raw sucked and Smackdown ruled. I became an avid Heat viewer thanks to it being the home of Raven. Continued getting into the indies. Became a pretty big ROH fan. Went to a bunch of their shows. Daniels remained my guy on the indie scene. Also went to a bunch of other indie shows and kept tabs on TNA, though I hadn't watched it yet. Matt Hardy Version 1 was my new fave by the end of the year.

The Smackdown video games were huge during this 01-03 period. We'd get together a few nights a week to play after work. Forgot to mention in yesterday's post there was another game we played in '98 with CAW. Ahmed & Bret were on it despite being gone from WWF in real life. Anybody know the name of this game? 

WWE continued to stagnate in 2003. Matt Hardy hit the glass ceiling as RVD had the previous year. Flair was slumming it as HHH's lackey. The H's himself sucked. Angle missed a lot of time. Raw remained terrible and Smackdown fell off as well. Pretty dire year for the fed. Up and comer John Cena was a rare bright spot. WGTT was another. Remained a pretty big ROH fan. But I was an even bigger TNA fan as this was the year I finally started watching the promotion. Raven, Jarrett, Daniels & AMW were my guys in ROH/TNA. October marked another end of an era as my 2nd wrestling fan clique got together one last time to attend No Mercy 2003. Most of them were already going off wrestling by then. Knew it was over in September when one guy was painting his new house in his once-beloved HHH shirt. We all remained friends for another 2.5-3 years, but wrestling just wasn't a topic of conversation anymore. I never had a real life wrestling fan again.

2003 was also when my dreams of becoming a pro wrestler finally died for good. I wasn't getting any younger. The plan going back to late 00-early 01 was for the previously mentioned Triple H Shirt Guy (also known as The Regal Clapper) and I to go to wrestling school together. It would happen "next semester" or "when I got my degree" or when I had "$x0,000 in the bank" or whatever excuses he came up with. There was always some excuse. I had my first existential crisis in February 2003. What was I doing with my life? I threw a potential career away a few years earlier (long story) only to end up working another dead end job. My on again/off again school career was approaching a Van Wilderesque level length. My grades were fine. Good even! I was a regular on the Dean's List. It's just that I didn't care. School held no appeal for me. I did it because I was supposed to. But most of all I was tired of the same old same old. What was fun in 00-01 had become old and tiresome by 2003. My best friend (the TNA fan who introduced me to DBZ a few years earlier) was an increasingly unhinged creepy drunk who was becoming a burden on my social life. So sometime in February 2003, or shortly thereafter, I went apartment hunting a few times in Delaware & Pennsylvania with the plan of getting away from it all, bearing down, and going to wrestling school. By this point I knew it was never going to happen if I stayed home. But I either snapped out of my funk, ended up chickening out, or a little bit of both, and more or less kept up the same old charade for another 2.5 years. My one big regret. Should have had the balls to leave it all behind and get stretched by some sadistic failed wrestler one state away. My loss. 

The Bronze Age or Continued Decline: October 2003-January 2006

WWE was a little better in 04 than it had been in 03. You had the Rise of JBL, rewarding Benoit (and Eddie), and the return of Foley. All cool! Evolution carried Raw by being greater than the sum of its parts. My last remaining wrestling fan friend finally went off TNA early in the year and as far as I know never watched wrestling again. I lost track of TNA for a while myself after that.  ROH was really good this year though. Went to a bunch of shows and was still a big indie fan in general. Also, TEDDYMANIA~!

2005 was the best year in a while. WWE was on par with the previous year, but ROH & TNA continued to grow, ECW nostalgia was in the air, and OVW became my favorite promotion of them all. Picked January as an arbitrary end date because that marked my last live ROH show for 8 year and things would really fall off a cliff in '06.

Firstly, was always curious about your background c because I'd always presumed you'd been a lifer till you mention there was a huge gap back in HOW. Was there still a big contingent of Chikara fans in PW back in 2014? I remember DJM would always spout the virtues of Quack but it seemed like the reboot killed their momentum. I lost whatever interest I had after seeing You Only Live Twice, I remember liking Ashley Remington and then having one of Baker's epiphanies when he re-emerged in ROH as Dalton Castle.

I think it explains a lot and your perspective on AEW. Chikara + CZW are definitely in AEW's DNA so it checks out.

Finally got a chance to sit down and read your write up Bake and it was well worth the wait. I don't think it occurred to me just how important the Monday Night Wars were and how the buzz just made it so appealing. Also just the natural evolution of technology from magazines to hotlines to prehistoric internet. When did Scott Keith enter the picture? Because I remember he was a bigger influence than Meltzer when it came to assessing matches and the show in general.

When did you stop collecting PWIs? Did you ever buy any WOWs?

Also didn't you use to tape RAW/SmackDown on top of buying all those Mid-South/Memphis/SMW tapes? IIRC, those Mid-South tapes made you a Dibiase admirer, did they not? Were there any other take-aways or was it just that Flair/Dibiase match? Was there anything good on those Benoit, Jericho or All-Japan tapes? Again IIRC, you acknowledged the Japanese stuff was good but maybe not your cup of tea?

WWF Warzome is the game you're thinking of and the CAW mode was a game-changer. It came out in July of 1998 despite clearly being based off the WWF circa October 1997 with Kane included in the game. It's a product of it's time and didn't exactly stand the test of time, but it was still a good advertisement of the company and captured the feel of the company pretty well even if the action was stiff. Acclaim would go onto make ECW games before finally making their own series in Legends of Wrestling. The latter actually had a fun system where you'd go from territory to territory and had a really good roster - unfortunately the gameplay was said to be really buggy.

Might make a separate thread of wrestling games.

Mar 15, 2024 15:39:20 GMT @ness said:

Might make a separate thread of wrestling games.

Do it.

No Mercy or HCTP?

Or even SYM?

Mar 15, 2024 15:26:56 GMT Big Pete said:

 When did Scott Keith enter the picture? Because I remember he was a bigger influence than Meltzer when it came to assessing matches and the show in general.

I discovered Keith in 2000. Maybe late 99. I do think you could argue he was a bigger influence to turn of the century hardcore fans who didn't subscribe to the Observer just because Keith's stuff was free to read on the internet. Even back then Meltzer had a reputation as a wrestling snob whereas Keith was more of a fake snob. 

When did you stop collecting PWIs? Did you ever buy any WOWs?

Stopped with the Apter Mags for the most part when my lone subscription expired around Christmas 1998. Though I may have bought a few more PWI 500s and somebody got me the 2001 PWI Almanac for Christmas or maybe my birthday. Never bought any WOWs but I'd occasionally thumb through them at the bookstore or the grocery store. Same goes for the forgotten ECW Magazine. 

Also didn't you use to tape RAW/SmackDown on top of buying all those Mid-South/Memphis/SMW tapes?

Never taped Raw but did tape Smackdown for years. Had a big old bookcase full of Smackdown tapes. We're talking years' worth. One day I was gonna make a killing off those tapes. Then I got tired of buying new tapes every few weeks. Then Youtube and similar video sharing sites blew up. Then came The Network. And now all those carefully curated Smackdown tapes are collecting dust in this big box along with all my other tapes.

IIRC, those Mid-South tapes made you a Dibiase admirer, did they not? Were there any other take-aways or was it just that Flair/Dibiase match?

NO! I was already a big Dibiase fan from his WWF days as the Million Dollar Man and all I heard from old timers was how he was sooooo much better in Mid South. He wasn't! He was actually pretty disappointing. The Flair match rules though. And I'll confess to being a low voter on Mid South in general. It just didn't knock my socks off the way old timers said it would. From what I saw I liked the 1986 UWF stuff the best. That's when the Freebirds & Eddie Gilbert were their lead heels.

Was there anything good on those Benoit, Jericho or All-Japan tapes? Again IIRC, you acknowledged the Japanese stuff was good but maybe not your cup of tea?

Yeah. I respected it more than I loved it. It was kind of like eating your vegetables. You're told it's good for you. You know you're supposed to do it. But give me that meat and sweets. Give me ECW. Give me Memphis. Give me 80s NWA. And give me all of that sweet sweet WWF. You know I'm a sports entertainment guy at heart so the stoicism of Misawa & Kawada and general dryness of the stuff would only go so far with me. Fwiw my favorite Japanese stuff back then was Michinoku Pro. Kaientai was a fun heel act with charisma. Plus I had an attachment to them since they had worked ECW and were now working my beloved WWF. Watching them in the Before Times felt like I was doing my duty to the fed by scouting the new kids on the block so I could tell my friends what to look out for from them. 

Best I can remember the only Japanese tapes I had back in the day were a comp tape called Intro to Puroresu, the 94 J-Cup, a Michinoku Pro comp or two, and a few years later in roughly Spring 2001(!) I got the Legendary Battles of Survival Tobita which was like sports entertainment on crack. Obviously I loved the latter. Never had a Benoit or Jericho tape! Benoit was a big deal in the 94 J-Cup, but I'm not sure I saw any Jericho in Japan until Youtube blew up in the late 2000s. The famous J-Cup left no lasting impression on me.  Match listing and commentary for Intro to Puroresu...

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}
Misawa vs. Kawada- Don't think it's their famous match. Certainly hope it isn't! Because I didn't care much for this. Kawada kept going for powerbombs.
Misawa & Kobashi vs. Kawada & Taue- 60 minute draw that honestly bored me. Either MM or KK was injured on the floor for a long time.
Dr. Death vs. Kobashi- the Backdrop Driver Match
Misawa vs. Kobashi- 1/20/97- ^These 2 were my 2nd & 3rd favorite matches on the tape. I liked the charismatic Kobashi far more than the stoic (aka BORING!) Misawa & Kawada. But even 1998 me, hardly a selling nerd, didn't understand why Kobashi would pop up from super death drops only to go down to more basic moves. A few years later even your old DVDVR nerds were constantly arguing over whether Kobashi's weird brand of selling was stupid no selling or super duper next level selling that everybody should steal. Fwiw the Kobashi haters seemed to lose this battle and fade away during his long NOAH Championship reign.
Hashimoto vs. Muta- Hash wins title. Average match. I liked how they used wrestlers as chairs.
Cactus vs. Funk- Death Match Final- More a spectacle than a great match. And all these were my 1998 opinions! I was much easier to please in '98.
Otani vs. Ultimo- The Tombstone Match- High energy cruiserweight action with weird dueling Tombstone no sells.
Kaientai vs. Good Guys- These Days 10 Man Tag- Aww yeah! Finally, the good stuff. My favorite match on the tape.
*And I forget the rest. There may have been some overlap with the '94 J Cup. 

From time to time I'd get the urge to dive deeper into Japanese wrestling, but there was always some territory or indie tape I wanted to watch more. Didn't come back to it until Youtube blew up in the late 2000s and even then I was only an occasional dabbler. Another issue I had with getting into Japanese wrestling back in the day was I needed commentary. Hated when I bought an indie tape with no commentary. Commentary in a language I didn't speak/understand was just as bad. ROH once ran a pretty famous Dragon/Styles match that I could never get into (actually hated) just because it didn't have commentary. I didn't shake this quirk until a few years after joining PW in the 2010s. Nowadays I have no problem watching Japanese wrestling or wrestling without commentary. 

WWF Warzome is the game you're thinking of and the CAW mode was a game-changer. It came out in July of 1998 despite clearly being based off the WWF circa October 1997 with Kane included in the game. It's a product of it's time and didn't exactly stand the test of time, but it was still a good advertisement of the company and captured the feel of the company pretty well even if the action was stiff. Acclaim would go onto make ECW games before finally making their own series in Legends of Wrestling. The latter actually had a fun system where you'd go from territory to territory and had a really good roster - unfortunately the gameplay was said to be really buggy.

That's it. Thanks. CAW was a dream come true. Remember making a bunch of APW guys. That's how I knew we played it in (late) 98 We didn't own the console Warzone was played on, but my cousin would bring it over with him during his frequent trips. If @ness doesn't make that video game thread by tomorrow, I will. 

Scott Keith, the famous thumbs in the middle guy?

Mar 16, 2024 1:01:29 GMT @ness said:

Scott Keith, the famous thumbs in the middle guy?

Probably. Though I didn't know he was famous for that. I remember him more as the guy who would go off on paragraph long tangents about how terrible HHH was only to give his match a deserving ****+ at the end. 

Mar 16, 2024 1:09:59 GMT Baker said:

Mar 16, 2024 1:01:29 GMT @ness said:

Scott Keith, the famous thumbs in the middle guy?

Probably. Though I didn't know he was famous for that. I remember him more as the guy who would go off on paragraph long tangents about how terrible HHH was only to give his match a deserving ****+ at the end. 

Only reason I have that in my memory banks is I would sometimes use that for a rating and someone called me a wannabe Scott Keith...

I remember him from my early days of PW as I would sometimes also view 411mania where I'd see his articles.

Also Baker we should both make a thread and see which one puts asses in the seats.

The End of Days: 2006-2009

The decline went from gradual to precipitous in 2006. Real life changes + other interests meant I no longer had much time for alternative wrestling and WWE was the worst it had been in my 19 glorious years of fandom. Shows became a slog. A real chore to get through. 06 was the first time I ever considered throwing in the towel. Until this year I had always assumed I'd be a lifer. Angle & JBL leaving back to back was a double punch to the gut. Then I realized the ECW revival wasn't going to be what I wanted. Then RVD shot himself in the foot after finally getting the big push he should have had 4 years earlier. After an initial bout of excitement, I realized DX was bad as ever. I had Cena nuff. Just dire stuff all around. Even my guys Flair & Foley bombed in one match they had together. Vengeance came real close to being WWE's answer to WCW's Uncensored '96. I hated that show so much. Thank goodness for King Booker. He pretty much singlehandedly kept me watching. Though I really think if I had been quicker to hop on Youtube I would have only watched King Booker segments and ultimately went off modern wrestling a few years earlier than I did.

2007 was actually a step back in the right direction. HBK became my most unlikely favorite when he decided to singlehandedly carry Raw on his back for the first third of the year. Me becoming an HBK Guy is as big a shock development as my becoming a Hogan respecter later in life. Rumble & Mania were a lot of fun. Taker, Morrison, Matt & MVP were other highlights. Then Santino and the back to back returns of Jericho & JBL late in the year. Plus I had stopped taking it so seriously. Wrestling was just another form of entertainment now. I hadn't done much posting since 99-00, but this year I got back into the posting game on OWW & 411mania.

It's also the year Youtube blew up for me. Which actually hurt modern wrestling. Look, I liked MVP, Morrison & Santino as much as the next guy. Probably more. But they couldn't compete with new Flair, Lawler & Funk matches. Tape traders such as myself put in a lot of work for a little amount of wrestling. Now with Youtube (or The Network or The 'Cock) you have all the wrestling you could ever want at the tip of your finger. 90s-early 2000s me would have died of happiness overload at such a prospect. Fast forward to today. Let's be honest now. Who over the age of 12 is getting excited about Reigns, Rollins, and Cody when Flair, Lawler, and Funk are right there on The 'Cock? Nobody I want to know. That's for sure. Anyway, people forget what a godsend early Youtube was. And this was back when Youtube was actually fun, and you could find pretty much anything you wanted on there. They basically had ALL THE WRESTLING. 

2008 was the year of HBK, Jericho (his best imo), Flair's retirement, and Jeff Hardy being THE guy for a month or two. This is the one time I seriously thought about attending 'Mania (for Flair's last match). It's probably for the best that I didn't since fate dictated I would start my new job/"career" the day after 'Mania. Probably would have had to cancel even if I did get tickets. In October I went through existential crisis #3 (I skipped the 2006 one) and actually stopped watching for a few weeks. This was my longest wrestling drought since 1986.

Early 2009 saw Christian's return, a fun JBL/HBK feud, and the build to what was bound to be an epic Taker/HBK match 11 years in the making. And when that HBK/Taker match didn't knock my socks off the way it did for literally everybody else, I decided maybe wrestling just wasn't for me anymore. I randomly went to my first indie show in 3 years (Chikara a few weeks after 'Mania) to see if that could reinvigorate my fading love for the business. It didn't. As the year rolled on, I would just watch the handful of guys I still enjoyed on Youtube. Remember being into Jericho vs. Old Men, Christian's ECW Title reign, Mike Knox, Goldust, and Dreamer's last ride. But by the end of the year, I was finally done with wrestling. Or so I thought...

Late 2009-Present: (Mostly) Lapsed Fan

From late 09-late 12 I only came back to wrestling for a month when Lawler brought me back for 'Mania season 2011. I wasn't even watching the old stuff anymore. Really thought I was done with wrestling for good. It was no longer a part of my life. I had finally moved on from a childhood hobby that I stuck with for a decade or two too long. Then one day I was randomly thinking about ECW. Did a search for something ECW related. Neo Zeed's American Hardcore Theater thread popped up. Read it. Joined PW just to put him over. Decided to stick around. Have been here ever since.

Late 2012 I tried getting back into current wrestling. It didn't really take, though I did like Dolph, Sandow, Ryback, and Bully Ray. 

Next 7 years I mostly stuck to the old stuff, though a wrestler would occasionally win me over enough to sometimes check out their stuff on the 'Tube. Wyatt & Goldust in 2013-14. Yano & Tanahashi in 2015. Broken Matt Hardy in 2016. Also watched ROH semi-regularly in 2014-15 before all the superkicks finally drove me insane. I mostly no sold NXT. The little I saw appalled me on a deep, spiritual level. It was so....unWWF. WWF going big budget indie was gross. Err...WWE. Whatever.

Late 2019-early 2020 I was all about that NWA Powerrr. Still the best wrestling promotion to come down the pike since late 2005 OVW, maybe even since late 2002 Smackdown. Loved it. Then COVID happened and my once-beloved NWA was never the same.

Last few years I've actually watched more AEW than WWE. This is mostly because of Jeff Jarrett. Worth noting I have also watched (parts of) the last 2 Rumbles and last 2 Manias after skipping most of 'em entirely from 2010-2021. I'm not crazy about either fed. AEW still rubs me the wrong way more often than not. It's wrestling for geeks. But since that's all that's left....

And last year I realized my lifelong loyalty to WWE turned out to be not so "lifelong" after all. Look, even as a mostly lapsed fan, I wanted to see WWE succeed. I rooted for them from afar. I loved that company. WWE was such a major part of my life for such a long time. Vince McMahon's brainchild almost certainly provided me with more hours of entertainment than any other entity on the planet. At some point after the sale, I realized I was loyal to Vince, NOT TKO. What the hell is a TKO anyway? Best I can tell it's some gluttonous shark eating up what other people built. So, yeah, Nu WWE ain't for me, brother. If it lives, it lives. But if it dies, it dies. So long as I can find the old stuff somewhere I'll be happy. Though I'll admit HHH as the soulless trendchaser forever hoovering up the latest fad really does make him the perfect guy to lead a corporate wrestling promotion. What a disappointment he turned out to be.

Look, modern wrestling isn't for me. It hasn't been for a long time. I'm not the target audience. And I made my peace with that a long time ago. It's not just wrestling either. Few things to come out in the last 10-15 years are for me. So I no sell it and stick with the stuff I do like. 

Maybe something will come outta nowhere to capture my interest the way NWA Powerrr did a few years ago. It's possible! I certainly wasn't expecting Powerrr to win me over the way it did. I'm even willing to support AEW & WWE! They just have to put out a product I actually want to see. WWE had a chance to win me back (or at least check out more clips) when LA Knight got hot last year. I was even thinking about going to Raw in Baltimore to see the Marylander live. But then they dropped the ball with him and now he's just another guy. Basically RVD 2023 and it sucks just as much as when they did Rob dirty back in 01-02. Similar situation with AEW. They came to Baltimore last year, but Double J wasn't scheduled for a match. No JJ=No Buys. Fwiw Timeless Toni and Dirty Dom also rule. 

Another problem is the style of wrestling I like best ("sports entertainment" for lack of a better term) just doesn't work anymore. Fans are too "smart" nowadays. It's almost impossible to get real heat or have gimmicks people (unironically) buy into. Even if somebody booked the kind of wrestling I like in 2024 it would inevitably devolve into either Chikaraesque "wink-wink, nudge-nudge look how delightfully wacky we are!" bullshit or the lead heel would get cancelled for being a big meanie. Oh well. At least I still have Flair, Lawler, Funk, and Vincent Kennedy McMahon's WWF.