And I don't specifically mean WrestleMania 40.

The WWE's flagship event has been referred to as The Grandaddy of Them All. They constantly highlight "WrestleMania Moments" -- which are so meaningful, feuds can develop just over having one. The "Road to WrestleMania" overtakes the conversation for 3-4 months.

All that is good. It's great, maybe. But a funny thing happened along the way ...

Nothing else matters.

The WWE, and more importantly, the WWE Fans, seem to think that if it doesn't happen at Mania, it's not important. So storylines drift and drag for the other nine months of the year, and we're all left waiting for something important to happen.

Cody Rhodes story -- which I'm hugely invested in as a fan -- had to happen at Mania. The fans demand it, and the WWE ensures it. But then you have Rock/Roman, which also will have to happen, apparently, at Mania. It's "too big" for other PPVs, so we'll drag for a year without any creative or character development until Q1 2025. We'll just be on hold. Again. It's part of the reason every title reign right now is so boring. Champions are having long, drawn-out reigns because we can't dare pull the trigger until the Showcase of the Immortals.

I think back to when the Shield three-way match happened at Battleground. Fans weren't excited for the match to finally happen. They were pissed it wasn't at Mania. That's fucking bananas to me.

The Monday Night War era is often see through rose-colored glasses, but one thing I love when I think back is that anything could happen in any month, at any PPV, or even any TV show. The Rock won his first title at Survivor Series. Mankind and Triple H won their first titles on Raw. 

But we've been become so conditioned to think WrestleMania is the only way to signify something is actually important.

What say you? Am I crazy, or is this an actual issue.

It's so bad that basically Smackdown after Mania until the Rumble is basically filler. It really holds back things and *maybe* a testament to the Bloodline storyline that people actually thought anything meaningful was gonna happen on shows that weren't Mania. So much so that I'm actually surprised Taker went down at Survivor Series, especially with how far away from the Big 4 it truly is. We actually lose on a good # of matches because it has to happen at Mania and if things aren't in alignment they have to stall for a year and who knows where we'll be by then. One Darby Allin injury and you're screwed.

Being pissed it doesn't happen at Mania is a weird one for me because nothing was more of a cockblock watching live at home (let alone in attendance) than them saying it will happen at the upcoming PPV. Well, glad I wasted my time then...

WWE booked themselves into this making WM season starts at the Rumble and last four months with the rest of the year feeling like an off season since we know they will hold the next big matches and runs for the next season.

I agree completely. WWE is too Wrestlemania-centric. Don't have much to add.

I don't think it does but I can see how others do.

Just in the big title alone, Roman v Sami (EC), Jay (SS), War Games (SS), Logan (CJ), and Drew (CatC) were all great stories. In fact, there are still people upset that Sami, Drew, and Jay didn't win the title in their respective matches in their non-WrestleMania shows. No one cared that those matches didn't take place at WrestleMania.

Mar 17, 2024 0:06:47 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

I don't think it does but I can see how others do.

Just in the big title alone, Roman v Sami (EC), Jay (SS), War Games (SS), Logan (CJ), and Drew (CatC) were all great stories. In fact, there are still people upset that Sami, Drew, and Jay didn't win the title in their respective matches in their non-WrestleMania shows. No one cared that those matches didn't take place at WrestleMania.

I actually think this proves the point,

That said … Do you think anyone truly believed Roman’s title reign would end outside of Mania?

Mar 17, 2024 1:23:02 GMT KJ said:

Mar 17, 2024 0:06:47 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

I don't think it does but I can see how others do.

Just in the big title alone, Roman v Sami (EC), Jay (SS), War Games (SS), Logan (CJ), and Drew (CatC) were all great stories. In fact, there are still people upset that Sami, Drew, and Jay didn't win the title in their respective matches in their non-WrestleMania shows. No one cared that those matches didn't take place at WrestleMania.

I actually think this proves the point,

That said … Do you think anyone truly believed Roman’s title reign would end outside of Mania?

If there was no chance he was losing those matches, would anyone have watched? The Drew match especially seemed built so that he would win. I think there are still a few people on this forum who are upset Sami didn’t win and believed he could. I thought Jay was a great opponent to lose the title to and while I was leaning on 75-25 he wouldn’t, I still thought there was a chance.

Ho was mad that those three matches didn’t happen at Mania?

Mar 17, 2024 1:53:21 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

Mar 17, 2024 1:23:02 GMT KJ said:

I actually think this proves the point,

That said … Do you think anyone truly believed Roman’s title reign would end outside of Mania?

If there was no chance he was losing those matches, would anyone have watched? The Drew match especially seemed built so that he would win. I think there are still a few people on this forum who are upset Sami didn’t win and believed he could. I thought Jay was a great opponent to lose the title to and while I was leaning on 75-25 he wouldn’t, I still thought there was a chance.

Ho was mad that those three matches didn’t happen at Mania?

I don’t believe anyone truly expected then to win. Thinking they should is a completely different category.

Any of those wins would’ve been good, by the way. But not happening kind of proves the point.

If it's a problem, it's a marvellous problem to have.

Is it though? There is a reason WM outdraws other shows, casual fans know they can skip most of the year since WWE saves the best stuff for WM and WM season.

Mar 17, 2024 2:32:48 GMT c said:

Is it though? There is a reason WM outdraws other shows, casual fans know they can skip most of the year since WWE saves the best stuff for WM and WM season.

Is the NFL trying to take any of the stakes off of the Super Bowl and shift them to week 9 just because more people tune into the Super Bowl than they do the regular season or the playoffs?

Mar 17, 2024 2:04:39 GMT KJ said:

Mar 17, 2024 1:53:21 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

If there was no chance he was losing those matches, would anyone have watched? The Drew match especially seemed built so that he would win. I think there are still a few people on this forum who are upset Sami didn’t win and believed he could. I thought Jay was a great opponent to lose the title to and while I was leaning on 75-25 he wouldn’t, I still thought there was a chance.

Ho was mad that those three matches didn’t happen at Mania?

I don’t believe anyone truly expected then to win. Thinking they should is a completely different category.

Any of those wins would’ve been good, by the way. But not happening kind of proves the point.

I thought Drew was going to win. I was iffy on the others but I didn’t think either was a 0% chance of winning. Again, I probably had some sort of 75-25 reservation on Jay and Sami.

The WWE Championship has changed hands 140 something times and only 25 of them have been at WrestleMania. (The first nine happened before WrestleMania existed). It certainly seems like important things happen outside of WrestleMania.

Mar 17, 2024 2:53:03 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

Mar 17, 2024 2:04:39 GMT KJ said:

I don’t believe anyone truly expected then to win. Thinking they should is a completely different category.

Any of those wins would’ve been good, by the way. But not happening kind of proves the point.

I thought Drew was going to win. I was iffy on the others but I didn’t think either was a 0% chance of winning. Again, I probably had some sort of 75-25 reservation on Jay and Sami.

The WWE Championship has changed hands 140 something times and only 25 of them have been at WrestleMania. (The first nine happened before WrestleMania existed). It certainly seems like important things happen outside of WrestleMania.

Did you just pull a historical stat out to debate against a modern issue?

Regardless, this isn’t just a WWE Title conversation.

Mar 17, 2024 2:57:54 GMT KJ said:

Mar 17, 2024 2:53:03 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

I thought Drew was going to win. I was iffy on the others but I didn’t think either was a 0% chance of winning. Again, I probably had some sort of 75-25 reservation on Jay and Sami.

The WWE Championship has changed hands 140 something times and only 25 of them have been at WrestleMania. (The first nine happened before WrestleMania existed). It certainly seems like important things happen outside of WrestleMania.

Did you just pull a historical stat out to debate against a modern issue?

Regardless, this isn’t just a WWE Title conversation.

What’s a more important moment than the WWE championship being defended?

And yeah I did. But you used a stat from 2016 so I thought it was fair game. But I’ll start there. The WWE Championship has changed hands 23 times since Ambrose v Seth v Reigns. Only 5 of them happened at WrestleMania.

Mar 17, 2024 3:12:39 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

Mar 17, 2024 2:57:54 GMT KJ said:

Did you just pull a historical stat out to debate against a modern issue?

Regardless, this isn’t just a WWE Title conversation.

What’s a more important moment than the WWE championship being defended?

And yeah I did. But you used a stat from 2016 so I thought it was fair game. But I’ll start there. The WWE Championship has changed hands 23 times since Ambrose v Seth v Reigns. Only 5 of them happened at WrestleMania.

2016 vs. Pre-Mania. 😂

But again, you’re fixated only on the title. I’m focused on the biggest moments in the WWE. The WWE booking for the last few years largely runs in place until Mania. Even many of the changes since then were setting the table for Mania as the end goal.

To clarify, I agree that the biggest moments in WWE happen at WrestleMania. But I think that's a good thing. And it doesn't mean that only important things happen at WrestleMania. This is just off the top of my head:

CM Punk returns (Survivor Series)
Edge returns (Royal Rumble)
Bray Wyatt returns (Extreme Rules)
Bayley's [w/DC] return (Summer Slam)
Cody Rhodes' injured Hell in a Cell match
Gunther's epic run as IC champion
Usos turn on Roman (leads to SS match)
Sami Zayn turns on BL (leads to EC match)
Drew Mac returns to UK for CATC match
Seth wins WHC (NoC)
Cody v Brock (SS)
Big E cashes in MITB (Raw)
Brock v Roman Last time ever (SS)
John Cena v Roman Reigns (SS)
Logan Paul v Roman Reigns (CJ)

Mar 17, 2024 3:50:36 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

To clarify, I agree that the biggest moments in WWE happen at WrestleMania. But I think that's a good thing. And it doesn't mean that only important things happen at WrestleMania. This is just off the top of my head:

CM Punk returns (Survivor Series)
Edge returns (Royal Rumble)
Bray Wyatt returns (Extreme Rules)
Bayley's [w/DC] return (Summer Slam)
Cody Rhodes' injured Hell in a Cell match
Gunther's epic run as IC champion
Usos turn on Roman (leads to SS match)
Sami Zayn turns on BL (leads to EC match)
Drew Mac returns to UK for CATC match
Seth wins WHC (NoC)
Cody v Brock (SS)
Big E cashes in MITB (Raw)
Brock v Roman Last time ever (SS)
John Cena v Roman Reigns (SS)
Logan Paul v Roman Reigns (CJ)

I’m also not saying nothing happens elsewhere. But to be fair, a decent chunk of the above are all angles with (presumed) payoffs at this Mania.

Mar 17, 2024 2:43:00 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

Mar 17, 2024 2:32:48 GMT c said:

Is it though? There is a reason WM outdraws other shows, casual fans know they can skip most of the year since WWE saves the best stuff for WM and WM season.

Is the NFL trying to take any of the stakes off of the Super Bowl and shift them to week 9 just because more people tune into the Super Bowl than they do the regular season or the playoffs?

That's the point, Wrestlemania is WWE's Super Bowl. I don't understand why it is such a difficult pill to swallow.

If the minor PPVs weren't being reported as being " the most watched " or " the most profitable... " every other month, then I would agree that WWE should spread the love across the 12 months and ensure a mega main event every 30 days to drive business. But, they're the most profitable they've ever been.

And then again if you dilute the significance or importance of Wrestlemania by spreading out a number of co-main events across the year, the value of Wrestlemania slowly declines.

The minor PPVs are doing well enough without the need to cannibalise Wrestlemania.

Does the move away from having to pay for actual PPVs fuel this? Because in the streaming era the only show that's gonna feel like anything special will be Mania because of the length and extras they throw in. For the longest time (haven't watched the product in forever for the record) it seemed like PPVs were just extended Raw/SDs.

Curious what happens with WM next year. Does Raw get equal time or is Smackdown treated like a A brand and Raw like NXT given the massively decreased reach Raw will have moving off cable.

Sure WWE will pretend all fans have Netflix moving forward starting next year but that is just not gonna be the reality.  Expected when Raw and other programs debut and starts the era of inshow commercials for Netflix, and expected price increases, there will be a flight of subscribers too that makes things more complicated.

Time for the OFF SEASON!

Mar 17, 2024 4:28:02 GMT NATH45 said:

Mar 17, 2024 2:43:00 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

Is the NFL trying to take any of the stakes off of the Super Bowl and shift them to week 9 just because more people tune into the Super Bowl than they do the regular season or the playoffs?

That's the point, Wrestlemania is WWE's Super Bowl. I don't understand why it is such a difficult pill to swallow.

If the minor PPVs weren't being reported as being " the most watched " or " the most profitable... " every other month, then I would agree that WWE should spread the love across the 12 months and ensure a mega main event every 30 days to drive business. But, they're the most profitable they've ever been.

And then again if you dilute the significance or importance of Wrestlemania by spreading out a number of co-main events across the year, the value of Wrestlemania slowly declines.

The minor PPVs are doing well enough without the need to cannibalise Wrestlemania.

No difficulty here. But I think it's a mistake.

The Super Bowl analogy doesn't work for a never-ending annual show. It can be their marquee event without being the only (primary) event where activity happens.

What bothers me, though, is that the WWE is continually floundering for a 4-6 month period where their top stars are clearly in limbo until Mania. Maybe this gets rectified by better booked in the future, but I strongly believe holding on development and stringing things out because "it's a WrestleMania moment" is silly.

Agreed. There should be more importance on Summerslam and WarGames or more so what's on the line.

Survivor Series has always felt like a slapped together event until recently. Especially in the era of brand v brand.

And " declaring for the Royal Rumble " shouldn't be a thing. It should be earned by having to win a qualification match, this can begin in early December to give weight to the matches on television.

But again, a few are deliberately forgotting Wrestlemania is more than just a show - it is a tourist, media and advertising event. If the card looked more like a minor PPV, because they've exhausted all their big matches across the year and the storylines didn't have the weight or complexity to garner engagement... then it wouldn't be " Wrestlemania " it would just be another show and therefore wouldn't have the significance or the commercial value.

It's interesting we aren't having a conversation about NJPW having a Wrestle Kingdom problem. The company falls off the radar of 90% of fans for 51 weeks of the year and only ever gets any interest once these big matches are announced. Similarly, AEW has little complexity or real quality in its storytelling for the majority of the year, which is exactly what WWE is being critiqued here for here - a 6 month period where things aren't phenomenal, but still very good. If AEW had half the consistency in storytelling that WWE had during its " off season " then AEW might shake it's inability to draw a gate or grow its audience.

Mar 17, 2024 22:16:40 GMT NATH45 said:

Agreed. There should be more importance on Summerslam and WarGames or more so what's on the line.

Survivor Series has always felt like a slapped together event until recently. Especially in the era of brand v brand.

And " declaring for the Royal Rumble " shouldn't be a thing. It should be earned by having to win a qualification match, this can begin in early December to give weight to the matches on television.

But again, a few are deliberately forgotting Wrestlemania is more than just a show - it is a tourist, media and advertising event. If the card looked more like a minor PPV, because they've exhausted all their big matches across the year and the storylines didn't have the weight or complexity to garner engagement... then it wouldn't be " Wrestlemania " it would just be another show and therefore wouldn't have the significance or the commercial value.

It's interesting we aren't having a conversation about NJPW having a Wrestle Kingdom problem. The company falls off the radar of 90% of fans for 51 weeks of the year and only ever gets any interest once these big matches are announced. Similarly, AEW has little complexity or real quality in its storytelling for the majority of the year, which is exactly what WWE is being critiqued here for here - a 6 month period where things aren't phenomenal, but still very good. If AEW had half the consistency in storytelling that WWE had during its " off season " then AEW might shake it's inability to draw a gate or grow its audience.

The WWE is big because it's the WWE. Sponsorships, tickets, etc., are sold in advance. It will always be "WrestleMania."

Agreed on the other two. They fall off a cliff.

I want to challenge the notion that nothing of significance happens outside of The Road to Wrestlemania. Or that WWE drops off in terms of storytelling from " the Smackdown after Wrestlemania until The Rumble " or delivering " moments " 

The PPV Main Events from May to November : 

Backlash ( May ) Cody v Brock Lesnar. A Wrestlemania level main event. And a continuation of Cody's arch becoming the people's champion. 

Night of Champions ( May ) KO & Sami v Roman Reigns & Solo. The Bloodline saga continues as Reigns & Solo attempt to do what The Usos couldn't. 

Money in the Bank ( July ) The Bloodline Civil War : Reigns & Solo v The Usos. 

Summerslam ( August ) The Bloodline Civil War Pt 2 : Roman Reigns v Jey Uso for the Undisputed Universal WWE Championship. Easily a Wrestlemania level main event also. 

Payback ( September ) Seth Rollins v Shinsake Nakamura for the WWE's World Heavyweight Championship. 

Fastlane ( October ) Seth Rollins v Shinsake Nakamura for the WWE's World Heavyweight Championship - last man standing. The card also features LA Knight & John Cena v The Bloodline, as it builds towards... 

Crown Jewel ( November ) Roman Reigns v LA Knight for the Undisputed Universal WWE Championship.

WarGames ( November ) Cody, Seth, Jey, Sami & the returning Randy Orton v The Judgement Day & Drew in WAAAAARRRRR GAAAAMMMMEEESSS! It's also the return of CM Punk. 

----

There are some massive moments in there, with potentially the only low points - main event wise - being the Seth / Shinsake Title matches. The Cody v Brock match is a significant moment in establishing Cody as a legitimate contender and it could be largely debated his victory over Brock could be seen as a reason why Seth needs to defeat Cody.. and/or has a respect for him. May until September, WWE is largely closing out this chapter of The Bloodline angle. Let's be honest, they're not doing a title swap at Crown Jewel - the only international market I'd expect a babyface to win The WWE Championship, would be in London. And then WarGames is a spectacle in itself. 

It's an interesting, albeit a weird argument to make as the general consensus is the WWE is rocking and rolling and has been delivering at a level unheard of over the last 20 years, not just for WWE, but for wrestling. 

Almost everything there is just keeping the food warm until Mania, when the main storyline will conclude.

Is that not the point?

Mar 18, 2024 0:41:58 GMT NATH45 said:

Is that not the point?

It’s the thesis of my point. Every major moment doesn’t need to built to payoff at Mania.

(And by every, I mean most)

It leads to predictable programming, especially at the top.

Which then is the main driver for people to seek alternatives to WWE when they get bored of the predictable format that nothing of importance happens outside of PPVs and no PPVs really matter outside of the Rumble to Wrestlemania block since they set up the WM stories at the Rumble.

I subscribe to Wrestlemania 20's tag line : Where It All Begins... Again.

Wrestlemania is the endgame, it's the closing chapter, hence why everything builds towards Wrestlemania. As it should. The night after signifies a new year in WWE, which is why the RAW after Wrestlemania is known for it's returns, or at the very least, new stories being written.

To use your food analogy, KJ , marinating on something for months until it's ready to eat isn't a bad thing, especially when the alternative from the opposition is to google " what can I make with crackers, rice and vanilla extract? " and then proclaim " TADA! Wrestling! " when the audience asks, WTF is this?