But the whole year does not lead to WM. The main events are almost always started at the Rumble. Two people win the rumbles then call out champions and that sets up your WM main events. Nothing matters that year until the rumble match except for undercard stuff, and even that rarely starts before the Rumble.

I won't play into your c-isms if you're going to die on a hill arguing that it needs encompass the entire 365 days for it qualify as " having started before Rumble " 

But, of the 4 biggest matches announced so far, all of them have been building for a long time. Nothing is random, or feels like it started a month ago. They're all a continuation of a larger storyline that has been playing out for 4 years. 

Drew v Seth as an overall arch started in October when he challenged Rollins for the title at Crown Jewel having recently turned heel. Since losing that match, Drew has been obsessed with Rollins ever since he refused a rematch. And was forced to earn his eventual title shot. Why did Drew turn? He was pissed with Cody. Why was he pissed with Cody? Because he bought Jey to RAW. Why is he pissed with Jey? Because he was in The Bloodline. Why doesn't he like The Bloodline? Because they screwed him repeatedly. Why is he pissed with Rollins more so? Because Rollins is obsessed with Cody v The Bloodline. Layers. 

Jimmy v Jey is a continuation of The Bloodline arch that has been running for 4 years. 

Cody v Reigns. Well, it's a continuation of Cody " finishing the story " arch that begun over 12 months ago when he won the Rumble, the first one, and was screwed out of the match by The Bloodline. Having to win it again was his only opportunity at facing Reigns for the title. Hence his need to win his second Rumble. His alliance/rivalry with Seth has it's roots in Wrestlemania 38 when he returned, beat Rollins. And then beat Rollins a few more times.. so much so, Rollins almost needs Cody's approval at this point, despite being World Champion. 

Factor in The Bloodline v Rhodes & Rollins also. 

The undercard is secondary and doesn't require the complexity. The 4 big main events are all long term archs that span much further back than The Rumble, the fallout from last year's 'Mania or Wrestlemania itself. 

Even Bayley v Io. The angle started 18 months ago and you knew eventually one would turn given Io won the title. It's wrestling.

Doesn’t feel like many people have been seeking alternatives in the past few years. They’ve never sold more tickets to these non -WrestleMania events than they do now.

I agree though with the overall point, and it’s why I can’t watch the TV product week after week. Sometimes it feels like a curse to have grown up during the Attitude era, even if I can acknowledge the flaws in that approach all these years later. We’ve gone from anything can happen to nothing probably will happen. But it works for them.

I don't see it as an issue right now. It certainly can be in the future, but the Bloodline angle is as hot as ever and the WWE being able to build their year around major shows just allows them to pace out their story-beats and ensure everyone is being presented in the best light.

That won't always be the case and by the time this Bloodline story winds up, they'll have to up the ante and be more creative to ensure there's fan interest. However every decision to drag this storyline out an extra year has paid dividends so far.

Right when you think they can't top themselves after Danielson, after Cena, after Brock, after Drew, after Sami, after Cody, after Jey they somehow find another gear.

I also think there's enough attractions outside of Wrestlemania to keep the wheel turning in draft shows, SummerSlams, international stadium shows etc. etc. It all just adds to this perception of the WWE feeling as relevant as ever. Keep in mind too COVID and the writer's strike, I think the WWE has only gained more acceptance as they seem to have their finger on the pulse better than the major studios.

I think of instances when the WWF tried to be too clever and that's how you wind up with a Wrestlemania XV, Wrestlemania 2000 etc. Trying too hard to keep fans engaged, your Wrestlemania ends up being inferior to your Backlash. It's important to serve your major events first when you're a live event company, especially in this day and age of two Wrestlemanias per year.

Mar 16, 2024 18:51:29 GMT KJ said:

And I don't specifically mean WrestleMania 40.

The WWE's flagship event has been referred to as The Grandaddy of Them All. They constantly highlight "WrestleMania Moments" -- which are so meaningful, feuds can develop just over having one. The "Road to WrestleMania" overtakes the conversation for 3-4 months.

All that is good. It's great, maybe. But a funny thing happened along the way ...

Nothing else matters.

The WWE, and more importantly, the WWE Fans, seem to think that if it doesn't happen at Mania, it's not important. So storylines drift and drag for the other nine months of the year, and we're all left waiting for something important to happen.

Cody Rhodes story -- which I'm hugely invested in as a fan -- had to happen at Mania. The fans demand it, and the WWE ensures it. But then you have Rock/Roman, which also will have to happen, apparently, at Mania. It's "too big" for other PPVs, so we'll drag for a year without any creative or character development until Q1 2025. We'll just be on hold. Again. It's part of the reason every title reign right now is so boring. Champions are having long, drawn-out reigns because we can't dare pull the trigger until the Showcase of the Immortals.

I think back to when the Shield three-way match happened at Battleground. Fans weren't excited for the match to finally happen. They were pissed it wasn't at Mania. That's fucking bananas to me.

The Monday Night War era is often see through rose-colored glasses, but one thing I love when I think back is that anything could happen in any month, at any PPV, or even any TV show. The Rock won his first title at Survivor Series. Mankind and Triple H won their first titles on Raw. 

But we've been become so conditioned to think WrestleMania is the only way to signify something is actually important.

What say you? Am I crazy, or is this an actual issue.

Agreed. I think this was part of the issue when we were debating the Rock/Roman vs Roman/Cody issue. Rock vs Roman is huge. The Rock (like him or not) is one of few Attitude Era guys (people still care about) who can still be used in ring for a high profile match. To me that screams WrestleMania over Cody/Roman II. I felt a slower burn with having Cody literally take away everything from him culminating at SummerSlam would have been the way to go, but many more invested in the 2 year Cody storyline disagreed. Both sides were arguing it had to be at Mania, the booking was leading that way and that's the issue. 

This could also directly lead into the ongoing conversation over WWE not building wrestlers 'properly' like they used to. They used those PPVs to really build a character, a moment and a talent culminating in that character getting their due not just at Mania but SS, RR, etc. Why not have the Tag Titles, Women's Title, IC Title headline anymore? Because they haven't built up those divisions to where they could be so you've got a bunch of essentially meaningless titles other than one. Same issue with Mania. A bunch of meaningless PPVs except for one. 

I kind of miss when it was just the Big Four.  Survivor Series USED to be a favorite of mine even over Mania, now I feel it's not any different than any other PPV, in fact it's become one of my least favorites. Of course SummerSlam and Royal Rumble are still a big deal, but honestly not like they used to be. When's the last time either felt special? That you were truly surprised? That's an issue and I believe the issue you are describing. They've put all their eggs in the WM basket and it affects the rest of the product from weekly shows, to other PPVs. Even Mania is more a more sanitized version of itself. 

Now that the WWE conversation has died down I'll take the opportunity to talk about my favourite wrestling company.

Mar 20, 2024 11:28:14 GMT NATH45 said:

It's interesting we aren't having a conversation about NJPW having a Wrestle Kingdom problem. The company falls off the radar of 90% of fans for 51 weeks of the year and only ever gets any interest once these big matches are announced.

I'll gladly engage in conversation about NJPW.

The Wrestle Kingdom problem is identical to the Wrestlemania problem. Come Wrestlemania season, WWE pulls out all the stops and always brings in a nostalgia/beloved act to bring in the casuals or lapsed fans. This year it's The Rock, it was Steve Austin a few years ago, Cena makes a yearly appearance, we've seen Goldberg and Brock. NJPW does the same thing. This year's Wrestle Kingdom featured Brian Danielson. They've had Chris Jericho, Kenny Omega (after he left the company), Jon Moxley, Mercedes Mone. The same idea. Bring in the lapsed fans.

We see a microcosm of this on PW. Posters who never watch NJPW tune in to Wrestle Kingdom. Posters who never watch WWE show up for Wrestlemania season.

NJPW's booking has some focus on Wrestle Kingdom, although I would argue not as all encompassing as how WWE books for Wrestlemania. The purpose of the G1 Climax, the biggest and best tournament in wrestling, is to decide who will main event against the champion at Wrestle Kingdom. Basically a more sports-based and far longer version of the Royal Rumble. But they have a lot of other big shows with important matches, different wrestlers and championships receive the spotlight throughout the year, it doesn't feel as rigid as WWE's Wrestlemania-centric booking.

Mar 18, 2024 9:32:25 GMT Todd said:

Doesn’t feel like many people have been seeking alternatives in the past few years. They’ve never sold more tickets to these non -WrestleMania events than they do now.

I agree though with the overall point, and it’s why I can’t watch the TV product week after week. Sometimes it feels like a curse to have grown up during the Attitude era, even if I can acknowledge the flaws in that approach all these years later. We’ve gone from anything can happen to nothing probably will happen. But it works for them.

Indy wrestling is in a massive boom period.  People are clearly checking out many other feds.  And not just one or two feds are doing well either like the RoH / PWG era, nationally about half a dozen feds getting talk, and even smaller local shows are seeing attendance increasing.  Look at everything running WM too.  Stardom, NJPW, GCW and others all running in Philly that week.

Sure a lot still check out WWE, but if WWE giving them everything they wanted from wrestling, there would be no need to check out alternatives.  Attitude era no one really went to indy shows.  Same for the pre-AEW era really when all the top indy guys went to WWE.  Why go to an indy fed, when all your favorite people are in WWE?  Worst thing for indy wrestling is when WWE is on fire.  Rising tide does not raise all ships, it is the opposite really as it is hard to compete against WWE at their best.  Thankfully with the PG era indy shows do have a cheap attraction they can offer in blood.  But the family friendly feds still struggle.

To Todd's point, I don't think anything has sustained any buzz. GCW appeared to be on it's way in 2022 and was drawing sell-outs, but now that Tony is putting his foot down with his workers that's drying up and their crowds are back into the hundreds and it's the same old people on top. I don't think it's anywhere like it was in the mid-10s when you had the UK indie boom, with the NJPW boom with PWG, Lucha Underground, ROH, Evolve etc. Fans went because guys like Punk, Bryan, Cesaro, Ambrose, Rollins, Zayn, Neville etc. were walking advertisements for those shows, coupled with a few TNA talents re-entering the indie market, so there was more name value.

Mar 21, 2024 0:08:27 GMT Emperor said:

But they have a lot of other big shows with important matches, different wrestlers and championships receive the spotlight throughout the year, it doesn't feel as rigid as WWE's Wrestlemania-centric booking.

You could make the same argument for the WWE. We just had Rhea Ripley and Nia Jax main event in front of 50,000 fans and they have some pretty big pit-stops along the way in the other international shows, Money in the Bank, SummerSlam, Survivor Series, Royal Rumble, Draft Shows etc.

There was certainly a time you could make the case for NJPW mixing things up. From 2012-2018, the IWGP title didn't change hands at WrestleKingdom, but since 2019 it's been fairly regimented. The title now changes at WrestleKingdom, then there is one mid-year title change, usually around Wrestlemania season or Dominion, then they crown a new champion at WrestleKingdom. The few exceptions have been when the title has been vacated, or they came back after the pandemic and needed to shake things up (and quickly backflip when they come to their senses).

I don't really see it as an issue, although I did prefer the 2012-18 way of doing things and I'd say most fans did as well.

Mar 21, 2024 7:52:44 GMT Big Pete said:

There was certainly a time you could make the case for NJPW mixing things up. From 2012-2018, the IWGP title didn't change hands at WrestleKingdom, but since 2019 it's been fairly regimented. The title now changes at WrestleKingdom, then there is one mid-year title change, usually around Wrestlemania season or Dominion, then they crown a new champion at WrestleKingdom. The few exceptions have been when the title has been vacated, or they came back after the pandemic and needed to shake things up (and quickly backflip when they come to their senses).

That's all true. NJPW has been in a semi-holding pattern recently. The most blatant case was when Jay White returned a couple of years ago to randomly challenge Okada at Dominion. He shockingly beats Okada for the IWGP World Heavyweight Championship. Even then it was pretty clear it was all a vehicle for Okada to win the G1 Climax and get the title/win back at Wrestle Kingdom.

I imagine with all the young lions returning, the recent SANADA flop, and the departure of Okada and Ospreay, that there's going to be a shake up, which we're already seeing with Yota Tsuji winning the New Japan Cup. That probably happened only because David Finlay got hurt but it's clear they were pushing him hard anyway.

I will grant that there was a 15-20 year span where I didn’t watch wrestling, but hasn’t this usually been the case with the WWE? Stone Cold was the hottest act in WWE coming out of WM 13, but they couldn’t make him champ until 14. Shawn had the same coming out of 11 and couldnt win it until 12. The Megapowers formed at four so they could explode at five.

I think the bigger problem is the insistence that the only way to make a title matter is to have one person hold it for years. They seem to have only one speed, which is invincible champion no one can beat ever to make the title win worthwhile. But the title is made by the person, not the length of the reign. There’s a happy medium for sure between this and hot shotting titles around, but they have gone too far the other way. They have a roster of main event talent, none of whom seem to be capable of even beating the secondary title holders. Drew has lost to Gunther, Sami has lost to everyone, Jey Uso can’t win a match at this point, Kevin Owens only seems to have feuds for titles they won’t give him (or let him keep I guess). You can’t even call this a Wrestlemania problem when Roman is going into his fourth Mania as champ and Gunther’s doing his second. They’re not building for Mania, because theyre wasting those builds by having them end in an unsatisfying way.

We could’ve spent all year knowing Cody was going to finish the story this year, we’d be ok if that wasn’t such a predictable straight line to Roman-Cody.

Mar 21, 2024 12:29:50 GMT mikec said:

I will grant that there was a 15-20 year span where I didn’t watch wrestling, but hasn’t this usually been the case with the WWE? Stone Cold was the hottest act in WWE coming out of WM 13, but they couldn’t make him champ until 14. Shawn had the same coming out of 11 and couldnt win it until 12. The Megapowers formed at four so they could explode at five.

I think the bigger problem is the insistence that the only way to make a title matter is to have one person hold it for years. They seem to have only one speed, which is invincible champion no one can beat ever to make the title win worthwhile. But the title is made by the person, not the length of the reign. There’s a happy medium for sure between this and hot shotting titles around, but they have gone too far the other way. They have a roster of main event talent, none of whom seem to be capable of even beating the secondary title holders. Drew has lost to Gunther, Sami has lost to everyone, Jey Uso can’t win a match at this point, Kevin Owens only seems to have feuds for titles they won’t give him (or let him keep I guess). You can’t even call this a Wrestlemania problem when Roman is going into his fourth Mania as champ and Gunther’s doing his second. They’re not building for Mania, because theyre wasting those builds by having them end in an unsatisfying way.

We could’ve spent all year knowing Cody was going to finish the story this year, we’d be ok if that wasn’t such a predictable straight line to Roman-Cody.

This is basically what I was going to say in different words. I think that KJ is correct in his assessment, but I also think we are in a unique situation that will see a lot of change coming soon. I feel like the WWE has always kind of been this way but it has been way more apparent because of how The Bloodline has basically taken centre stage for several years now.

There is a counter argument to this with something like Steve Austin vs Vince McMahon. That was a storyline that spanned several years, however the main difference is that not every huge payoff of that feud HAD to take place at Wrestlemania. Some of the biggest moments did, but that feud had several major moments along the way that happened at other PPVs, episodes of Raw, etc. And the WWF Championship wasn't held hostage by that feud either, which is a key difference with Roman Reigns.

I really think we are going to see some major changes at Wrestlemania 40 and beyond, and I think that we are coming to the end of what has been a pretty stagnant few years for everyone not involved with The Bloodline. We have seen hints of this since the Royal Rumble. While the main event was still "CoDy'S SToRy!!!" there has been significant developments across the roster. I am really interested to see what the rest of 2024 looks like.