I apologize if I posted this subject in the past.
I've thought of it a lot overtime. Not sure how much I have shared the thought experiment outside my own head. Pw, has always been a place I share my random thought experiments.

Say, like in X-Men 2, there is suddenly a cure available for what is labeled an afflicton. In the movie, it's being a mutant that gives some powers. Some beneficial, some socially stigmatized. In my hypothetical situation it's autism. The hypothetical cure is a clinic visit injection that works almost instantly.

If this hypothetical cure were to exist for autism, would it struggle for acceptance like the cure in x men 2? Would people universally see autism as something to be cured?

I feel like there is next to nothing that would be 100% embraced. But autism is something that seems to be more embraced (not the best word maybe) over time.

Recently, I saw a van with the window sticker of "autism mom". I understand that the struggle of being an autistic mother is challenging and inherently would become part of a caring mother's identity. And I'm not saying she would have Munchausens, but would this mom, give up her identity to cure their child? Would that mother see her child as a victim of an afflicton that needs to be cured? Or see her daughter as a unique individual who culture should embrace and not try to "cure"?

20 years ago, shots would've been lined up and autism would've been exterminated. Even before jenny McCarthy and COVID vaccine paranoia, I bet the percentage of the people who would embrace a cure for autism would've greatly decreased.

I'm not saying it is right or wrong, I find it interesting how the perception of living with autism has changed and if a magic shot existed, if that perception would change.

I imagine 90% or more would get it instantly. While there is an autism pride movement, for the people where it has reached mental illness levels, a cure would be life changing.

The reason it is getting embraced right now is there is simply no treatment for autism. We can treat some aspects of it with therapy, but we still have utterly no clue really what autism is. The working definition is a nebulous umbrella for several distinct patterns of behaviors, but we have no idea what the mechanics are. Like are the neuropaths weird, do the synapsis misfire, or it a cognition issue? We are so far away from anything other than an accidental cure, people have two choice, learn to live with autism or rally against it which will do nothing.

It also helps the imagine that now it is being diagnosed at levels that do not met the threshold for mental illness in general. People with no distress or impairment being labeled as autistic makes the disorder seem far less live destroying as it is for people with severe symptoms. Most people with autism now, would not have in the DSM-III era. DSM IV lower the threshold to diagnosis it, and the DSM V further scaled back requirements.

Allen Frances is who to look into if you want to learn more, he did a book Saving Normal that seems up your alley. Not read it, but know he was the one who led the fight for the change in diagnosis from DSM III to DSM IV and deeply regrets his decision feeling it started a wave of over-diagnosing things and changing autism from being represented by people who cannot care for themselves or speak to just being a little socially awkward.

www.amazon.com/Saving-Normal-Out-Control-Medicalization/dp/0062229265

Dude is a big name in psychology with very interesting takes on a lot of issues, including the need for differential diagnoses in mental health, and not resorting to generalized diagnoses and generic treatments.  Also was a big player in the last few DSMs who really butted heads with the direction things are moving in, particular what he feels is forcing medicine on to people for behaviors we historically consider normal like school kids getting distracted or abstract thinking patterns.

Fast article on him to check him out a little without committing to a book.  Do not agree with all his says, but dude nails that we need more objective criteria for diagnostics instead of moving to vague catchalls.  

nypost.com/2023/04/24/doctor-who-broadened-autism-spectrum-sorry-for-over-diagnosis/

ADHD is going through a similar change now, except this one comes with stimulants for children.

Autism is a tricky one as c said, it doesn't bring any unique skills or abilities.
Many of the greatest minds in history would probably get an Autism/Aspergers diagnosis in today's age. These people are incredibly rare though, the perfect combination of high IQ and autism fuelled hyper focus in a niche area.


When my wife was pregnant with our second daughter she had a blood test at 10 weeks and already they could check for the sex of the baby and whether there were any genetic defects present like Downs Syndrome.
Now I can completely understand people not wanting to raise a child with a profound disability and there's no judgement on my end for the decision other people make.
My wife's OB was very clear that the test was done at 10 weeks so you could abort if there was any problems, he was firmly advocating that's what we should do.
Now more than 90% of Down Syndrome children are aborted in Australia. While I understand it all, it is troubling that we have decided that these peoples lives are not valid.
I'm not advocating either way, but it causes me concern.

I am not neutotypical as it turns out, but I don't want a cure if it meant I would lose the best parts of my skill set.

iNCY the Downs/ abortion topic is an extremely interesting conversation overall. So much depth. So hard, so real. Man, it's just rough. So fortunate I've never had to personally face that decision head on. But yeah. Goes along with my next notion for a post I have. We will see when I post it.

Apr 17, 2024 14:26:53 GMT theend said:

iNCY the Downs/ abortion topic is an extremely interesting conversation overall. So much depth. So hard, so real. Man, it's just rough. So fortunate I've never had to personally face that decision head on. But yeah. Goes along with my next notion for a post I have. We will see when I post it.

Where it is interesting, is that autistic people once diagnosed, are generally aware of their disability. 
For the most part (not all) down syndrome people may never be aware of what they are missing out on. There is a passionate video on YouTube of a highly intelligent down syndrome man making a case for the right of people like him to exist.

So many arguments seem contrary at the micro and macro level.
We can say it's generally a sad thing that down syndrome people no longer get to exist, but the idea that anyone should be forced to raise a disabled child through no decision of their own is also tough. 

Downs children often live lives of misery due to intense bullying for 18 years in school, then living in utter economic poverty due to their inability to perform labor that people consider valuable. While people laud that they live meaningful lives, up to 20% or so perform any labor, leaving the rest to survive on social services, which places them in such poverty it cuts their life expectancies down 10 to 20 years. 20% of them suicidal behavior, 33% feel their lives are not worth living.

Of course those estimates are loose as almost no one really cares at all to study their actual quality of life, and instead just use the celebrities lines about them being so brave and exploiting the ones who can work to promote work culture.

I would question who's lives people care about bringing children like this into this world. While it makes some feel great to value life, they do not have live the lives they are creating. Society claims we must be treated like shit or else others may want to join us on the bottom of the economic ladder.

Apr 17, 2024 14:45:13 GMT iNCY said:

Apr 17, 2024 14:26:53 GMT theend said:

iNCY the Downs/ abortion topic is an extremely interesting conversation overall. So much depth. So hard, so real. Man, it's just rough. So fortunate I've never had to personally face that decision head on. But yeah. Goes along with my next notion for a post I have. We will see when I post it.

Where it is interesting, is that autistic people once diagnosed, are generally aware of their disability. 
For the most part (not all) down syndrome people may never be aware of what they are missing out on. There is a passionate video on YouTube of a highly intelligent down syndrome man making a case for the right of people like him to exist.

So many arguments seem contrary at the micro and macro level.
We can say it's generally a sad thing that down syndrome people no longer get to exist, but the idea that anyone should be forced to raise a disabled child through no decision of their own is also tough. 

This is absolutely not truth.  Most are aware of their condition and that it is not normal.  Only the ones with the worst levels of cognitive impairment cannot tell they are different and it is usually because they are too disabled to attend schools or really leave their home.  Studies put the numbers around 77% understanding and 10% not, with 13% or so too disabled to answer questions about it.

What even is autism really. I know it's a spectrum from nonverbal to high functioning but there's more to it than lining up Lego pieces right? Online assessments usually put me pretty high but so does ass burgers...

My nephew might have it but they're still testing. It's tough to think about since my brother has to fight to even see him due to biased family court system. Suppose that's good for the trashy mom as she only keeps him around for the bennies.

One serious issue with autism now is it is hard to even define. Generally is a disorder characterized by social and communication issues, including being non verbal, and rigid or repeated behavior patterns, such as refusal to do things and being stuck certain routines. These two major areas may or may not be related, which further complicates things.  Move more into the details of the two areas and things get weird as they are defined by more branches that sometimes are there and sometimes not.

I honestly think it would depend on where they are on the spectrum. If they are just on the spectrum/functioning autistic, I don’t think they would want a ‘cure’ for it. Those who can’t function, especially the nonverbal/aggressive may benefit from a ‘cure’ but that would fall to the parents usually which then brings into other questions. Eg. Aren’t you supposed to accept and love your child no matter what, not cure it.

There is also a lot of people recently who seem to use autism as an excuse for their behaviour now. Not sure if that’s normal, but I don’t think they would go for the ‘cure’ if it benefits them

It's a little bit like Homer and the crayon.

As c mentioned, there is a significant amount of autism pride around in young adults. But, I'd suggest, a lot of people are self diagnosing themselves - because Gen Z loves labels and justification. And like " being an introvert " was in vogue a few years back, there's a lot of people jumping on it for the sake... well, there's many reasons.

But like Homer in this particular episode, despite gaining a superpower, it does consume you. And most wouldn't hesitate giving it up to live somewhat normally.

I was talking to a fellow who we routinely refer to when we can't figure something technical out at work. We asked how he manages to keep on top of all this information. He said, that's how his brain works - he sees it once, and it's completely locked in forever perfectly. We were amazed and thought, that's awesome. He said, no it sucks. He's constantly taking in information and he wished he didn't have it.

Watching him, he's like a Google Street View driving past, every bit of information is being consumed. He's figity and his eyes are constantly moving and his ability to relax and chill is minimal. He's an incredibly high performer for the business, but I'm sure he would stick that crayon right up that nose if he could.

That is my exact take, many who pride themselves on it are self-diagnosed and do not suffer distress or impediment of everyday life, two key features that make quirks mental illness. So they have the features of the illness, but not the severity of them that make it a mental illness.

One of the problems that the book I mentioned above goes into. Modern diagnostics is ignoring the severity scale that was a feature in the old diagnostic manuals and treating the mere presence of symptoms as what matters. But like social anxiety looks a world different on the low end and highs of being shy around a lot of new people and avoiding all human contact due to fear of strangers. Being a little sad somes days is a whole lot different from no longer reacting to what is going on around you. Severity of symptoms really matters, and more and more people are forgetting that. It would not entirely matter but some of the drugs say I take for severe bipolar, are also given to kids in middle school for depression, who do not have psychosis and thus have absolutely no need to be on any class of antipsychotics when other classes of drugs exist with far less side effects.

Grandma would say have your kids while you're young (in your 20's) and there is less chance of having a child with problems. I don't know if its true or not, but I know a lot of the old folks would say it and believed it.

Old wives tail related to down syndrome. Down syndrome was a lot more common when it was common to have kids into older ages.  We also know from modern abortion rates that it is far common in older women.

Apr 18, 2024 22:55:31 GMT bodyslam said:

Grandma would say have your kids while you're young (in your 20's) and there is less chance of having a child with problems. I don't know if its true or not, but I know a lot of the old folks would say it and believed it.

That's probably a combination of two things.

One being changing ideals across the generations. Once upon a time, to be married in your lates teens and early 20s was common place. Not so much in previous generations.

The other being a rise in diagnosis and understanding of mental health and learning disabilities over the last 4 decades.

So it is possible to make a correlation between the two and suggest, older parents = idiot children. But, without a degree in child psychology, very young parents = idiot children. Behavioural issues, learning difficulties, emotional problems are likely linked to parents not yet capable of raising children, or mature enough to do it well.

Would temple Grandin take the shot?

Apr 19, 2024 0:21:46 GMT theend said:

Would temple Grandin take the shot?

Probably not. She's very successful and has had meaningfully changed the world.

This reminds me of an old X-Men where someone supposedly created a cure for mutants. People like Storm were against it, saying there's nothing wrong with them. Sure, you are a weather goddess with incredible power. But poor Rogue can't even touch someone she loves without them dying. Of course she would be interested.

Apr 18, 2024 22:55:31 GMT bodyslam said:

Grandma would say have your kids while you're young (in your 20's) and there is less chance of having a child with problems. I don't know if its true or not, but I know a lot of the old folks would say it and believed it.

She is correct when it comes to down syndrome.
Apart from a family history of it, the only risk factor is the age of the mother.
The odds start low at 1 in 1000 or something, once you get to 40 it is 1 in 100 and by 45 it's 1 in 25.
Een though the risks go up with age, statistically most down syndrome children are born to younger mothers, only because that age group has way more births.
I researched all of this when we had our second child and freaked myself right out.

The other interesting one is breast cancer, if a woman has a child when she really young, it craters her risk of developing breast cancer later.

In the past, down syndrome was what people saw as any mental handicap as well. Rest of the kids were just considered weird or slow and people did not really care for why that was.

Percentages vs natural frequencies is jarring until you get used to using which when. And whenever dealing with risks you will want both as the wrong one in the wrong situation is very misleading. Routine mammograms doing more harm than good for healthy people is a great start to get into learning about this area. They end up far more likely leading to needing a pointless surgery than finding cancer.

My son has high-functioning autism. He’s amazing. Spectacular. Perfect.

I would absolutely give him the cure.

Apr 19, 2024 3:37:55 GMT c said:

In the past, down syndrome was what people saw as any mental handicap as well. Rest of the kids were just considered weird or slow and people did not really care for why that was.

Percentages vs natural frequencies is jarring until you get used to using which when. And whenever dealing with risks you will want both as the wrong one in the wrong situation is very misleading. Routine mammograms doing more harm than good for healthy people is a great start to get into learning about this area. They end up far more likely leading to needing a pointless surgery than finding cancer.

No down syndrome is a chromosomal issue, it has been that way for 30 years here.

That's why you can tell whether someone has down syndrome most times by looking at them.
Being able to find it by screening the mother's blood at 10 weeks is amazing.


With our first daughter they could only look at risk profiles based on the ultrasound.
It was to do with the limb measurements and ratio's they had a high correlation to down syndrome.
The only way then to know was to do a procedure where they took fluid from inside the placenta to analyze.
The issue was that the miscarriage rate for the procedure was pretty high compared to the statistical risk of down syndrome, what a terrible choice! 

I have a friend of a friend who has a down syndrome brother and a down syndrome daughter, she's a wonderful girl but their life has changed and they are going to care for her until they die.

Autism is strange only in that the scope of what it classed as autism is so wide.
In my immediate circle of friends off the top of my head I can think of 3 who have children diagnosed on the spectrum.
Only one is really extreme, he is almost non verbal, he makes an effort to acknowledge you but can only speak in very robotic pre-rehearsed sentences. We always make an effort with him but it is so hard because it's hard to tell whether he would just be preferred to be left alone.

The other two are more mild and if it wasn't for the inability to heed social cues you might not even realise, except one of them cannot make eye contact or speak very well.
There has to be a reason why we have so much more autism today, I know it has always existed and their were people labelled as weird, but there are statistically so many more today.

Apr 19, 2024 4:12:13 GMT KJ said:

My son has high-functioning autism. He’s amazing. Spectacular. Perfect.

I would absolutely give him the cure.

I am SURE your son is amazingly lucky to have a family to support him as you do.
Every child in the world should have that privelege.
My wife sent me this the other day and it cut me like a knife, because it is so true:




It makes me happy if our generation can stop this passing on of trauma from one generation to the next.

Cause of down syndrome was not known until 50's and not to common people until the 70's. For many the first understanding of
it came from media shit like Devo's Mongoloid. That is why older generations would say have kids young to avoid problems. They did not know what caused down syndrome, only it was associated with older births. And most stupid people were assumed to be mongolian idiots as we did not really separate out the learning disabilities until we stopped using the term mongoloids and moved to the more politically correct term mentally retarded.  Which is super ironic IMO given retard now is considered an unsayable word to most.