What do you think about the ole 450? Doesn't get much more awesome than this move for me. The newer kids today seemed to have perfected it where as back in the day it was usually sloppy(didn't Juvy injure people?). Who were the first to do this? Were Juvy and Kronus doing it as early as 1996 or was it later? Isn't it crazy how big Kronus was to be able to do that? 

May 25, 2024 19:13:06 GMT Neo Zeed said:

What do you think about the ole 450? Doesn't get much more awesome than this move for me. The newer kids today seemed to have perfected it where as back in the day it was usually sloppy(didn't Juvy injure people?). Who were the first to do this? Were Juvy and Kronus doing it as early as 1996 or was it later? Isn't it crazy how big Kronus was to be able to do that? 

2 Cold Scorpio was doing it in the early 90s! It's who I think of as the inventor of the modern 450. First guy I saw do it (probably on WCW Saturday Night), my mind melted. It was one of the coolest things I had ever seen. 

That being said, Scott Steiner claims to have invented it in the late '80s (The One and A half Superfly). And he sort of did! Although it wasn't as smooth as we'd know it to be. It's like a slightly clumsy prototype of a 450 splash, where he'd land on his feet with the front flip then fall forward. But it's a legitimate claim! And he'd do it much further out then would become the norm in the 90s. Truly a genetic freak. Crazy that he can make claims of invention of two of the most popular cruiserweight moves of all time as a jacked heavyweight. 

Well I believe that deserves a round of HOLY-SHIT chants, wow. never knew that

Last week I saw a claim that Tiger Mask (of course) was doing a version of the 450 in 1982. This thread reminded me of that. I investigated and found this...

Jesus that fucking rules Tiger Mask keeps rising up my list of favorite wrestlers ever, his influence on Sakuraba, and Sakuraba's influence on stuff I would do in my MMA fights theres a strong connection there. I'm glad I started this thraed yes I'm drinking a bottle of pinot grigio tonight

Tiger Mask, really one of the coolest wrestlers ever. A decade ahead of everyone. In multiple regards.

The motherfucker was just bad ass

The blend of shoot wrestling and lucha in 1982, Bret calling him the Bruce Lee of wrestling, yes a god

Is the inverse 450 taking it too far in the edge?

@ness I fucking love you man

So ya got the basic

Then there's the inverse/sometimes called imploding?

Finally

So I dunno if this is even a 450 but I know he did it as the Phoenix Splash in ROH. Dunno if the name carried over. I dunno what this is actually called though. It's like a 450 with an extra turn. Low Ki also used it I believe, but I'm not sure what he called it. Coulda found out if wiki wasn't a bunch of GEEKS removing finishers on pages.

Then I think Rich Swann did a standing one where he'd hop in place on the mat a few times and do the move. Didn't always look good but doing that with one jump can't be easy.

This is kind of one in a way.

@ness the twisting 450 is usually referred to as the Phoenix Splash. It was invented by Hayabusa...

Also bit of @ness trivia. I once changed my name to @phoenixsplash trying to get over as a wrestling name ala Michinokudriver - didn't last long.

Hayabusa to me had the best flip moves bar none

That inverted 450 is fucking nuts, the new gen definitely took it to the next level, Pac and Ricochet are amazzing

The 450 is weird in the sense that, on the surface, it looks like a fancy move that would upset some old timers because "it's pointless flips into a splash", but I think one could kayfabe it in that the extra rotation is putting more force on the splash, making it hurt worse. It's what makes the 450 look more like a finisher than just a standard splash, IMO.

Regular splash just looks lame even just comparing it to a frog splash. There's a reason outside of a cage dive it's just never looked at fondly. Though it does feel like classic rasslin.

The 450 does look more impactful than a regular splash. The regular splash only looks killer when a big man does it.

It's easily my favorite favorite top rope finisher, SSP a distant 2nd. Even indie oversaturation hasn't ruined that move for me, ala Destroyer, Superkick, etc.

What a love/hate about top rope finishers - if a move hits, the person executing it is ok. But if they miss, they sell it like they've been shot in the back. I think RVD is maybe the only one to really sell how painful flying through the air and landing on an opponent actually is.

Swear dude you combine the selling of everyone who ever took the Five Star and it still doesn't come close to how much RVD sold giving the move.

Some of these top ropes look cool but just don't seem like they actually do any damage. A lot, maybe most, headbutts always come off like this. I suppose it also depends on certain landings. With modern camera work and maybe some too safe Kane esque bumps you just see how "fake" it all is. Charlotte's moonsaults often exposed this and if you watch those early Lesnar shooting stars where it's obvious he doesn't make any actual contact with his opponent. Maybe too old and jaded to appreciate it, but it's hard when you see it before it even hits.

Shooting Star, 450... is 630 just an enhanded 450 or is it closer to the senton family since it's technically not a splash? A press is a splash. Even Gorilla Press you are essentially making the guy do a splash to "no water in the pool".

I give wrestling zero amount of space in my brain, clearly.

I still don't understand why anyone agrees to take Finn Balor's finisher. It's literally 200lbs coming down on your chest. There's no easy way to fake that, even if he tucks those knees and rolls, it's still 200lbs coming down on you.