Kilgore



1. Bret Hart vs Owen Hart at Wrestlemania 10



2. Hulk Hogan vs Andre The Giant at Wrestlemania 3



3. Sabu vs Terry Funk at ECW Born to be Wired



4. KENTA vs Low Ki at ROH Final Battle 2005



5. "Rowdy" Roddy Piper vs "Greg The Hammer" Valentine at Starrcade 1983



6. Tajiri vs. Steve Corino at Hardcore Heaven 2000



7. Sgt Slaughter vs Iron Sheik at MSG on June 16,1984



8. Bruno Sammartino vs Larry Zbyszko at the Showdown at Shea




Shootist



1. Brock Lesnar vs Kurt Angle at Wrestlemania 19



2. Rob Van Dam vs Jerry Lynn- Hardcore Heaven 1999



3. Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada- AJPW Super Power Series 6/3/94



4. Magnum TA vs Tully Blanchard at Starrcade 1985



5. Finn Balor vs Adrian Neville at NXT Takeover: Rival



6. Jerry Lawler vs. Bill Dundee Hair vs. Loser Leaves Town- Memphis 12/30/85



7. Taz vs Bam Bam Bigelow Falls Count Anywhere at Heatwave 98



8. Keji Muto vs Masa Chono 1991 G1 Climax final

Close matchup here, so I went down the line and compared the matches one by one. It was tied 2-2 at the top four, but Shootist took it in the bottom half. I don't know and can't see myself enjoying the likes of Piper vs Valentine, Slaughter vs Sheik and Sammartino vs Zbyszko. In contrast Shootist has Balor vs Neville, Taz vs Bam Bam and Muto vs Chono, which are miles better.

Feb 14, 2018 11:12:58 GMT Emperor said:

Close matchup here, so I went down the line and compared the matches one by one. It was tied 2-2 at the top four, but Shootist took it in the bottom half. I don't know and can't see myself enjoying the likes of Piper vs Valentine, Slaughter vs Sheik and Sammartino vs Zbyszko. In contrast Shootist has Balor vs Neville, Taz vs Bam Bam and Muto vs Chono, which are miles better.

It's this kind of reaction that makes me really want to urge folks to utilize the extended five-day voting window and check out some matches.

I personally haven't seen the Mutoh/Chono match, so will reserve judgment, but I would very much disagree that either Taz/Bigelow or Balor/Neville are "miles" better than especially Sarge/Sheik and also Piper/Valentine. I haven't seen Bruno/Larry in long enough to be able to defend it the same.

The problem with some of Kilgore's picks for me is that they're inarguable pairings of guys, but it's questionable whether it's the right match or not...

I feel like a case could've been made for the Bret/Owen world title cage match, and I think (especially with the finish and post-match shenanigans) the Hogan/Andre Main Event match was more entertaining overall that the respective 'Mania versions.

I get slotting Low Ki in with KENTA (even if I would've gone the Amazing Red route personally), and I still need to check out Tajiri/Corino but it's hard imagining I'll like it more than I *LOVE* Tajiri's stuff with Super Crazy, Kidman, Noble, etc.

Sabu/Funk feels like the best use of both, especially if you can't get Flair/Funk or Funk/Onita or Funk/Foley (and if you do, what does that leave you for Sabu?).

Then Piper/Valentine, Sarge/Sheik, and Bruno/Larry are genius, masterful, epic late-round picks (even if I might've personally gone with Sarge/Pat over Sarge/Sheik). Two of those three Kil stole right out of my hand, and Bruno/Larry was on my short list for final picks (and now I kick myself for taking Shelley/Sabin over that).

...

Then Shootist falls into a similar Bret/Owen and Hogan/Andre trap with Angle/Lesnar. The WMXIX match wasn't all that good, especially when you think back to where the bar of expectation was set headed into the match. And then the match is remembered for all the ring wrong reasons, namely the botched SSP. I vaguely remember their SummerSlam rematch having the botched F5-DDT counter that also put me off, so I'm wondering if their SmackDown Iron Man would've been the best way to go if set on pairing Angle against Lesnar.

I love RVD/Lynn as like the proto Low Ki/Amazing Red. I've only ever seen their matches in isolation, so I don't know which is which (i.e., from what shows, when) and have a hard time distinguishing then from each other... but this feels like a safe, smart pick and one that was probably under early consideration by me.

Misawa/Kawada, Lawler/Dundee, and Magnum/Tully are all great and speak for themselves. To me, these are the matches that stand a chance of being potentially better than Piper/Valentine, Sarge/Sheik, and Bruno/Larry. In fact... I'll go there: since I preferred Sarge/Pat to Sarge/Sheik, I'll give the edge to Lawler/Dundee there. I'll give Magnum/Tully the edge over Piper/Valentine, and Misawa/Kawada the edge over Bruno/Larry.

I'd give Sabu/Funk the edge over Taz/Bam Bam.

...

So, in thinking through this, it looks like it comes down to the following hair-splitters:

KENTA/Low Ki vs. Balor/Neville, and Tajiri/Corino vs. Muto/Chono.

I'll need to check some of these matches out to make a final determination. On paper, it seems like Shoot might win out, but never underestimate my love for Low Ki and Tajiri.

Feb 14, 2018 14:41:23 GMT 🤯 said:

It's this kind of reaction that makes me really want to urge folks to utilize the extended five-day voting window and check out some matches.

Fair point, but I'm not convinced I'd have the time. Not to fill all the missing blanks anyway, because I've seen less than 50% of these matches.

Feb 14, 2018 14:41:23 GMT 🤯 said:

I personally haven't seen the Mutoh/Chono match, so will reserve judgment, but I would very much disagree that either Taz/Bigelow or Balor/Neville are "miles" better than especially Sarge/Sheik and also Piper/Valentine. I haven't seen Bruno/Larry in long enough to be able to defend it the same.

When I said "miles better" I should have qualified that it's respect to my tastes. I've seen a few of these lauded 80s blood feud brawls (e.g. one of the Lawler vs Dundee matches, Flair vs Funk) and they are just not for me. When I watch such matches I always get the feeling that they can't be truly appreciated (or appreciated at all) unless you are in the moment, invested in the characters and the story that led up to the match. Going in cold, it's just a couple of men punching each other and bleeding. I know I shouldn't be tarring all these matches with the same brush, but that's the vibe I get.

Feb 14, 2018 15:47:03 GMT Emperor said:

Feb 14, 2018 14:41:23 GMT 🤯 said:

It's this kind of reaction that makes me really want to urge folks to utilize the extended five-day voting window and check out some matches.

Fair point, but I'm not convinced I'd have the time. Not to fill all the missing blanks anyway, because I've seen less than 50% of these matches.

Feb 14, 2018 14:41:23 GMT 🤯 said:

I personally haven't seen the Mutoh/Chono match, so will reserve judgment, but I would very much disagree that either Taz/Bigelow or Balor/Neville are "miles" better than especially Sarge/Sheik and also Piper/Valentine. I haven't seen Bruno/Larry in long enough to be able to defend it the same.

When I said "miles better" I should have qualified that it's respect to my tastes. I've seen a few of these lauded 80s blood feud brawls (e.g. one of the Lawler vs Dundee matches, Flair vs Funk) and they are just not for me. When I watch such matches I always get the feeling that they can't be truly appreciated (or appreciated at all) unless you are in the moment, invested in the characters and the story that led up to the match. Going in cold, it's just a couple of men punching each other and bleeding. I know I shouldn't be tarring all these matches with the same brush, but that's the vibe I get.

Totally fair point. In fact, had it not been for backstory research before watching some of them (i.e. had I gone into initial viewings cold) I get I'd have near if not the exact same response.

I voted Kilgore , mainly because of the top two matches. I don't know what 🤯 is talking about going for different matches with those pairings , as those are iconic and memorable matches for a reason. The deeper cuts might be nice as well but not everything has to be about workrate or pure wrestling quality.

Hogan vs Andre is arguably the biggest moment in the history of wrestling , I'd be crazy to not want to see that over a "better match" from network television. And Bret vs Owen was incredible , one of the biggest upsets of all time in one of the best feuds of all time and opening up the Mania. Their cage match was great as well , but atmosphere and the endings and everything else surrounding the match matters just as much as anything else IMO and I think Kilgore made the right choices with both those pairings.

Feb 14, 2018 17:12:51 GMT UT said:

I voted Kilgore , mainly because of the top two matches. I don't know what 🤯 is talking about going for different matches with those pairings , as those are iconic and memorable matches for a reason. The deeper cuts might be nice as well but not everything has to be about workrate or pure wrestling quality.

Hogan vs Andre is arguably the biggest moment in the history of wrestling , I'd be crazy to not want to see that over a "better match" from network television. And Bret vs Owen was incredible , one of the biggest upsets of all time in one of the best feuds of all time and opening up the Mania. Their cage match was great as well , but atmosphere and the endings and everything else surrounding the match matters just as much as anything else IMO and I think Kilgore made the right choices with both those pairings.

I'm much more willing to cede ground on the Bret/Owen one, but the ME Hogan/Andre included not just a title switch but the unfathomable happening in the belt being taken off of Hogan. I feel like that has to be up there, possibly above a Hogan title defense... No? I mean, I get that it's hard to compete with a 93k crowd. I dunno... Maybe just playing contrarian for the sake of playing contrarian, lol.

Feb 14, 2018 17:36:49 GMT 🤯 said:

Feb 14, 2018 17:12:51 GMT UT said:

I voted Kilgore , mainly because of the top two matches. I don't know what 🤯 is talking about going for different matches with those pairings , as those are iconic and memorable matches for a reason. The deeper cuts might be nice as well but not everything has to be about workrate or pure wrestling quality.

Hogan vs Andre is arguably the biggest moment in the history of wrestling , I'd be crazy to not want to see that over a "better match" from network television. And Bret vs Owen was incredible , one of the biggest upsets of all time in one of the best feuds of all time and opening up the Mania. Their cage match was great as well , but atmosphere and the endings and everything else surrounding the match matters just as much as anything else IMO and I think Kilgore made the right choices with both those pairings.

I'm much more willing to cede ground on the Bret/Owen one, but the ME Hogan/Andre included not just a title switch but the unfathomable happening in the belt being taken off of Hogan. I feel like that has to be up there, possibly above a Hogan title defense... No? I mean, I get that it's hard to compete with a 93k crowd. I dunno... Maybe just playing contrarian for the sake of playing contrarian, lol.

I don't think you're just playing contrarian , to each their own and that ME match could definitely mean more to you than their Wrestlemania match. I would say that you're in the minority though because I really do think at the end of it all , no matter what happened before or after that - Hogan slamming Andre at WM3 is the most iconic moment in the history of wrestling. I'm just a weird guy who thinks moments and certain spots matter just as much half the time than the entire match and that's also because they are easier to play in clips and montages and get more ingrained in the culture. 

Two interesting lists here.

Kilgore wins out in the battle of the pairs of ECW matches pretty easily, since he picked two of the best ECW matches, I'm not a big RVD guy and Taz/Bigelow doesn't do much for me.

We have two fantastic mid-80s brawls each (Bootcamp and Dog Collar vs. I Quit and LLT) that is pretty much even.

I think Angle/Brock was a weak opening pick by Shootist , especially compared to his opponent here with Bret/Owen. But Shootist can surpass that as he has the best match picked in the entire draft with 6/3/94. He also compliments it with a classic New Japan match in Muto/Chono.

I really like Hogan/Andre as a pick by Kilgore- I personally think it is underrated overall and it is just such a massive match and moment. Bruno/Larry Z is a fun pick as well, giving him the big two wrestlers of the biggest fed.

I remember not thinking much of Bálor/Neville, whereas KENTA/Low-Ki is a match I really enjoy (and manages to have a tree-of-woe double stomp that actually looks good, due to the way Ki stomps and grinds on the knee, causing KENTA to grab at it in pain and raise himself up).

It is very close. As much as it pains me to vote against Misawa/Kawada, I feel like each of Kilgore's picks has something going for it, whereas Shootist's ECW matches and the NXT bout let him down. Kilgore pips it.

I didn't get a chance to vote in this one but it wouldn't have made much of a difference, I would have voted for Kilgore. I like Shootists draft for Magnum TA vs Tully, Taz vs Bam Bam, and RVD vs Jerry Lynn. I wasn't that impressed with Angle vs Brock and the rest of his draft I haven't seen or don't remember seeing. Kilgore with the Sabu vs Funk BBQ, Bret vs Owen, Hogan vs Andre, Piper vs Valentine, definitely my favorite draft. Dude is a monster in these things, I don't remember anyone coming close to beating him in the ECW or MMA drafts that we did on the old board, maybe he lost in the guitar draft? We should definitely start keeping records and stats for all drafts! 

I could have easily lost. Shootist had a helluva draft. Those 3rd and 4th picks are two of the best matches in the whole draft.

I made a mistake in picking a Kurt Angle match, I forget the forum is lukewarm at best on most of his work.

That and also a lot of HoW fans weren't avid Ruthless Aggression watchers. Shin flat out hates that period of time, and the Aussie contingent didn't have SD during the Angle/Lesnar program.

In saying that, I'd have a hard time seeing Angle/Lesnar voted over Bret/Owen. With Taker & Austin off the board, the only option I could see competing is Benoit vs. Angle...and we all know why you didn't go there.

It's a shame that hardly anybody here watches TNA either because Angle and Styles had some excellent matches together. Their 1/4/10 match could end up being my NA MotY. It doesn't have stiff competition on the face of it - Richards/Black was the Omega/Okada of it's day while an argument could be made for Steen/Generico.

I thought your list was excellent, but Kilgore's modern match (Ki/KENTA) gave him the edge. Otherwise I kept changing my mind through out. Kilgore built an early lead, but Misawa/Kobashi & Magnum/Tully 1-2 almost finished it.

Hey! I'm likely the biggest Brock mark you'll find, especially during his Ruthless Aggression era run. And Kurt, specifically from mid 2000 through mid 2003, was a phenom and probably my most consistently favorite member of the SD!6. But even I can admit that the dream showdown between him and Brock at WMXIX wasn't what it was supposed to be. I seriously think you should've just picked their Iron Man. It's not a Kurt or Brock issue.

Yeah, it just isn't a match that people are too fond of. For Angle matches, Benoit Rumble '03 (even with the murders) and HBK Mania 21 would've likely been better picks as at least there are enough people that love the latter to counterbalance the detractors. People were probably smart to just avoid Benoit, as some people might vote against him automatically.

For Brock, there were easily better choices available. Eddie NWO '04, Cena ER '12, Punk Slam '13, Reigns/(Rollins) Mania 31, Cena/Rollins Rumble '15.