Last night at Money in the Bank, John Cena made a surprise appearance and announced to the Toronto crowd that he would be retiring. While he didn't go into specifics until the press conference after the show, we now know that 2025 will be his last year wrestling, and he has about 40 dates booked during that time. He also said he would be at the first Netflix show, the Royal Rumble, Elimination Chamber, and Wrestlemania. There are clips of the press conference on Youtube if you want to check those out.

Next year will mark a new beginning for the WWE as they move Raw to Netflix, but it will also mark the end of an era. John Cena is a 16x World Champion, carried the WWE through some of its worst times, and is in the conversation for GOAT status as a professional wrestler. He's not only one of the most important wrestlers ever, but one of the most important public figures. As of last year, Cena has granted over 650 Make-A-Wish's, setting a world record, and we're still counting. He also somehow found the time to become an accomplished Hollywood star.

So let's celebrate all things John Cena and discuss the past, present, and future. What are some of your favourite memories? What would you like to see happen during his retirement run? Will he win another World title to set a new record? Who do you think will be across the ring from him for his last match?

John Cena, one of the most polarising wrestlers in history. I'm not only referring to the WWE fans, but PW itself. I vividly remember the arguments, the hyperbole from both sides.

One group would loudly scream that Cena is the greatest worker of all time. The variety of great matches he had with opponents of all shapes and sizes. The other side would yell, equally loudly, that Cena is literally the worst wrestler ever. They'd refer to his five moves of doom, and his poor STF execution.

Looking back, Cena's career strikes me as oddly unmemorable, at a time when I was following WWE more than ever. I remember well his rise to the top, thuganomics, early rivalries with Angle, JBL, Big Show, then beating HHH and HBK at Wrestlemania. However, most of his top guy phase is a blur. I can barely remember any of his long feuds with Edge, Orton, Punk, countless others.

Late career Cena suffers from being far too generous and destroying his own credibility. Anyone remember the random post-streak Wrestlemania match with Undertaker where he lost in under a minute? Why? He recently lost to Austin Theory of all people at Wrestlemania. The Solo Sikoa feud was good. But really the most memorable late Cena match was Bray Wyatt, which was fascinating and one of the best parts of pandemic-era WWE, but at the same time it was the start of his burial.

Cena will be remembered fondly, as the WWE machine calls him the GOAT over and over again. Is he really? In my opinion, he isn't that close.

I hope it's not wasted on Randy. It's interested how back and forth fans have gone on him, but every since he transitioned away it seems like that was when all the Cena hate disappeared.

Jul 7, 2024 23:35:22 GMT Emperor said:

John Cena, one of the most polarising wrestlers in history. I'm not only referring to the WWE fans, but PW itself. I vividly remember the arguments, the hyperbole from both sides.

One group would loudly scream that Cena is the greatest worker of all time. The variety of great matches he had with opponents of all shapes and sizes. The other side would yell, equally loudly, that Cena is literally the worst wrestler ever. They'd refer to his five moves of doom, and his poor STF execution.

Looking back, Cena's career strikes me as oddly unmemorable, at a time when I was following WWE more than ever. I remember well his rise to the top, thuganomics, early rivalries with Angle, JBL, Big Show, then beating HHH and HBK at Wrestlemania. However, most of his top guy phase is a blur. I can barely remember any of his long feuds with Edge, Orton, Punk, countless others.

Late career Cena suffers from being far too generous and destroying his own credibility. Anyone remember the random post-streak Wrestlemania match with Undertaker where he lost in under a minute? Why? He recently lost to Austin Theory of all people at Wrestlemania. The Solo Sikoa feud was good. But really the most memorable late Cena match was Bray Wyatt, the start of his burial.

Cena will be remembered fondly, as the WWE machine calls him the GOAT over and over again. Is he really? In my opinion, he isn't that close.

While Cena is by far and away, WWE's greatest ambassador, you're right.  He's still not the greatest superstar.

The Rock, Undertaker, Triple H, Hulk Hogan, and even Stone Cold, even though his career was hampered by injuries, were better and more entertaining in the ring.

But anyways, congrats to John on a successful career.  Think he'll get #17 during this last run?

I’m hoping Cena gets one last title run. Him v Gunther for the WHC at Mania 41 would be lovely.

Cena, I consider one of the all time greats.

I've probably jumped back and forth between hating the guy and absolutely loving the guy as the years went by.

I could care less about how many Meltzer points a wrestler or a match has, I like storytelling, and I want to feel something and I like those big moments and John Cena was one of the best at doing that.

I became a fan during the 2nd half of The Attitude Era, and at that point the talent was well established. I was also too young to consider having grown up with the Hogans or Flairs - these guys were old men by the time I was 10 years old. I was maybe 18 or 19 when Cena debuted and I consider him part of my generation, as I saw the beginning, the middle and the end.

What hurts the most is, he made his debut over 20 years ago, and that's a gentle reminder of how old I am now.

It's like that skit going around where the middle aged guy buys Vice City and the cashier says he loves retro games. I'm waiting for some kid to share a video of " old school wrestling " and thinking it's going to be a Flair match, and it's instead John Cena v RVD at ONS.

I’m just going to use this thread for my 2025 Christmas list of things I want John Cena to do before he leaves.

It sounds like he is going to be on Raw (based off of the Netflix stuff). I hope the first episode of Raw on Netflix we get an epic Cena rap. I’m a PG guy but if the selling point is Netflix won’t be PG, I’d open the show with Cena doing a filthy rap.

2025 Royal Rumble .. so we know he is declaring for the Rumble match itself. I hope this ends with Orton tossing him out. Orton wins the Rumble.

Elimination Chamber .. Cena enters the Chamber and defies all odds and wins the chamber and is going to face Gunther at Mania 41.

WrestleMania 41… Gunther solidified himself as the top guy by beating Cena for the WHC. Orton beats Cody for the WWE championship.

Draft/Shake-up .. Cena is drafted to Smackdown. This will eventually end with him beating Orton for the title (#17) but losing it at Summer Slam to Cody, putting Cody over on his way out in a Hogan v Warrior like face v face showdown.

Coincidentally, the IC title and US title swaps brands and Cena beats whoever is IC champ in September. He spends his last three months in WWE as IC champ doing his open challenge gimmick until he drops it in December to whoever WWE wants to get that rub (Breakker if you’re asking me).

Jul 7, 2024 23:35:22 GMT Emperor said:

Cena will be remembered fondly, as the WWE machine calls him the GOAT over and over again. Is he really? In my opinion, he isn't that close.

I think there's other factors at play. Hogan was all about Hogan, and Hogan being all about Hogan led him to leave WWF, then go to WCW, then destroy WCW and then later destroy TNA. Flair was a WCW/NWA guy. Austin had 4 years at the top before he walked out. Rock had maybe 3 as the equal top guy before he walked for Hollywood and since it's been noted he's as egotistical as they come. And I think Undertaker may be regarded as the greatest character in wrestling and the most respected. Cena's run as the face of the company surpasses anyone else in terms of length. He had arguably 12-15 years as the top guy, on top of granting more wishes to kids than anyone else in history. He's a constant professional almost to his own detriment these days ( it makes him a little boring ) He may not have the Meltzer points to cash in, and perhaps the peak of his run was little more than " Super Cena " beating everyone, and for a while there it was incredibly predictable.. but it's a huge run, and a successful one at that. 

But I think what Cena's career lacks is a period of incredible creativity - or to compare him to Roman, an era like The Bloodline run, where beyond it being an amazing period for Roman professionally, it's a period of such critical acclaim as a character and has lifted and made so many careers in the process. We watched a PLE main event yesterday that was because of Roman Reigns. And he wasn't even there. Cena's later runs can only be defined by colour scheme. 

I'd almost argue, if Roman were to commit to a full time schedule, he could very well be the GOAT and surpass Cena in WWE's mind as being the greatest. 

Just thinking out loud.. 

Did the machine really transition from Shawn to Cena as the default goat?

Shawn was simply regarded as the greatest " in ring performer " wasn't he?

“ Imagine having to follow the Attitude Era and carry the company in a G rated era. It’s the hardest thing ever asked of a champion in my opinion. I don’t know anyone that could have done that in the history of this business but JohnCena one of best and most respectful guys I’ve ever met, so happy for him and so proud I got to see his historic run. Gonna enjoy every second of his finale. If he ain’t the GOAT, it’s a short list he’s on!” - John Layfield

I often wonder how different the WWE product would have been if Brock, who was poised to be the top guy, had stayed. Would WWE have allowed itself or been convinced to adopt a more PG product if the top guy was a legit monster?

But, I remember a wrestling personality saying as early as 2003, 2004 if you thought Brock was the " Next Big Thing.. John will be the bigger thing "

Wrestling is a paper champion business. Some guy just decides, that's the champion. And that's that. John Cena, with more than half of the audience always rejecting him and ratings/attendance/buyrates going down every single year for basically his entire run on top, is the paper champion that always felt wrong, which entirely built his current legacy that checks all the boxes of an all time great, which feels even more wrong. It's a "great" career, it really is, but it would have been less literally every step of the career if the WWE actually listened to their audience, which left in droves during his era, at least partially because the insistence of this guy half the audience did not want on top, was always on top, and yes, people are going to want to stop watching, and they did. Cena will retire being called The GOAT, not just the WWE machine, but many people not getting paid to call him that, some who should know better. The smoke will eventually clear and people will come to their senses because that is an absolutely ridiculous conclusion to come to when looking back on what he actually did, and what that actually meant to the business of professional wrestling. Most GOAT candidates create boom periods, Cena created a bust period. Good riddance.

Jul 8, 2024 5:10:54 GMT Kilgore said:

Wrestling is a paper champion business. Some guy just decides, that's the champion. And that's that. John Cena, with more than half of the audience always rejecting him and ratings/attendance/buyrates going down every single year for basically his entire run on top, is the paper champion that always felt wrong, which entirely built his current legacy that checks all the boxes of an all time great, which feels even more wrong. It's a "great" career, it really is, but it would have been less literally every step of the career if the WWE actually listened to their audience, which left in droves during his era, at least partially because the insistence of this guy half the audience did not want on top, was always on top, and yes, people are going to want to stop watching, and they did. Cena will retire being called The GOAT, not just the WWE machine, but many people not getting paid to call him that, some who should know better. The smoke will eventually clear and people will come to their senses because that is an absolutely ridiculous conclusion to come to when looking back on what he actually did, and what that actually meant to the business of professional wrestling. Most GOAT candidates create boom periods, Cena created a bust period. Good riddance.

That's a little harsh.  Think about all the wishes he granted to all those sick kids.  That's gotta count for something.

It's an interesting take Kilgore, I'll give you that.

You could counter that argument regarding boom periods and note, all the major booms were incredibly short term in the scheme of things, the Attitude Era being the prime example.

And a period like The Attitude Era is really only marked by its relevancy in popular culture alone ( the 18-34 male demo particularly ), as the most profitable years for WWE come over a decade and half later, and they've continued to see " the most profitable year " again and again since. All while we're told how out of style WWE is. Sure it was corny and often painful, but Cena lead a company to some of their biggest numbers in history. His run made bank.

And in John's defence, I believe they tried hard to make other guys the guy. Batista and Orton early on. Ambrose, Rollins and Reigns post break up later on. All of which failed to take the crown until Reigns in 2020. And a hell of a lot other blokes were given runs and opportunities. John never played up, he never walked out, he never burnt his trailer down, he never went off crazy or became a weirdo or did anything silly with drugs. He was a perfect employee and it's likely a big reason why his run was so long.

Jul 8, 2024 5:46:21 GMT CM Punk'd said:

Jul 8, 2024 5:10:54 GMT Kilgore said:

Wrestling is a paper champion business. Some guy just decides, that's the champion. And that's that. John Cena, with more than half of the audience always rejecting him and ratings/attendance/buyrates going down every single year for basically his entire run on top, is the paper champion that always felt wrong, which entirely built his current legacy that checks all the boxes of an all time great, which feels even more wrong. It's a "great" career, it really is, but it would have been less literally every step of the career if the WWE actually listened to their audience, which left in droves during his era, at least partially because the insistence of this guy half the audience did not want on top, was always on top, and yes, people are going to want to stop watching, and they did. Cena will retire being called The GOAT, not just the WWE machine, but many people not getting paid to call him that, some who should know better. The smoke will eventually clear and people will come to their senses because that is an absolutely ridiculous conclusion to come to when looking back on what he actually did, and what that actually meant to the business of professional wrestling. Most GOAT candidates create boom periods, Cena created a bust period. Good riddance.

That's a little harsh.  Think about all the wishes he granted to all those sick kids.  That's gotta count for something.

More than half the audience rejecting him.

That’s as delusional of a statement as I’ve ever heard in my life.

“ratings/attendance/buyrates going down every single year for basically his entire run on top”

WWE gave up 46% of its viewers from 2000 To 2005. 2005 is when John was crowned the WWE champion and basically made the face of the WWE. So let’s not pretend John was handed this magical thing that the Attitude Era created and he lost it. He was handed a sinking ship and asked to save it.

The year he was given the top bill. Ratings increased. The first time it happened since 2000, BTW.

Cena maintained ratings in the 3.0 area until there was a clear shift to move away from him towards Roman and Brock. Around the time that John started fighting guys like Bray and Rusev at Mania and we started seeing it headlined by Bryan and Roman and Brock.. is about the time that ratings fell into the 2.0 area and they just crumbled after that.

Kilgore is mostly right. Far as I'm concerned John Cena's lasting legacy will always be the top babyface who was rejected by half the audience for a decade. He's not the GOAT. He's 1983 Bob Backlund...a 1983 Bob Backlund who never went away. Ratings did decline every year under Cena's reign of doom save one (2006). Again, this goes back to Kilgore. He did the work one time. He also proved the steady decline in WWE ratings came during a time when ratings were higher than ever for the most popular shows on cable (ESPN sporting events, Walking Dead, etc). Granting wishes to sick kids is nice and all, but it has literally nothing to do with any sort of pro wrestling metric. And Shootist is living proof of Cena driving fans away. Good grief. If this is where we are now, I long for the slightly less insane days of people trying to sell me on Chris Jericho as the GOAT.

WWE survived, even thrived, because Vince and company were really good businessmen who made it fool proof. They got really, really good at monetizing the product. They tapped into new markets all around the world. And, yeah, Cena did play a role here. I'll give him some credit. He was a good brand ambassador. Half the audience wanted nothing to do with him. Many even walked away. But that other half ate it all up. I personally didn't get it, but then I wasn't 12 years old. You also have to admit WWE became more profitable than ever when Cena finally went away, and Cena 2.0 picked up the reigns.

Fwiw I'm more of an indifferent Emperor than a true blue Cena hater like Kilgore or Shootist. "Cena's career strikes me as oddly unmemorable." Yep. WWE wore me down in like 2007 when I just grudgingly accepted he was going to be the top guy and no amount of booing was ever going to do anything about it. Then I walked away myself 2 years later. Cena is just so...blah. There's nothing there. He's a Fruity Pebble-colored pile of nothingness. One of the blandest to ever to do it. A brand ambassador in the truest sense of the term. One could argue love (2003 Cena) isn't the opposite of hate (2004-2007 Cena). Indifference (2002 & 2007-Present) is.

You guys keep using that number “half.” But I’m not on board. And you not liking him isn’t enough. I’ve never seen anything that would imply that half of WWE’s viewing audience rejected Cena.

Jul 8, 2024 16:43:20 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

You guys keep using that number “half.” But I’m not on board. And you not liking him isn’t enough. I’ve never seen anything that would imply that half of WWE’s viewing audience rejected Cena.

Really? Watch any WWE show from 2005-2015. Hear those boos? Hear those "Cena Sucks" chants? Actually, half might be underselling it. Maybe I fully agree with Kilgore rather than "mostly" after all...

Jul 8, 2024 16:47:25 GMT Baker said:

Jul 8, 2024 16:43:20 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

You guys keep using that number “half.” But I’m not on board. And you not liking him isn’t enough. I’ve never seen anything that would imply that half of WWE’s viewing audience rejected Cena.

Really? Watch any WWE show from 2005-2015. Hear those boos? Hear those "Cena Sucks" chants? Actually, half might be underselling it. Maybe I fully agree with Kilgore rather than "mostly" after all...

LOL. 11 years and over half the fans just rage hated on him but stuck around. For 11 years. You my friend have mistaken a vocal minority for a majority. The only times I ever saw what I perceived to be a majority of fans blasting him was in a smarky crowd situation (One Night Stand, Money in the Bank). You have confirmation bias. You don’t like Cena and you heard people chanting Cena Sucks when you watched. Clearly the majority of the people agree with you. This fallacy is no different than people reading Twitter comments and saying “see, everyone feels this way.” When the reality is, a few feel that way. But hey.. I get it. You saw a “if Cena wins we riot” sign in the crowd so clearly the fans must hate him.

Jul 7, 2024 23:03:44 GMT RT said:

So let's celebrate all things John Cena and discuss the past, present, and future. What are some of your favourite memories? 

His early raps while wearing those sweet throwback jerseys. Seeing that awesome match with Angle live at No Mercy 2003. Getting booed out of the building by ECW fans at One Night Stand. The Umaga match at Royal Rumble 2007 and to a lesser extent the JBL brawl in 2005. Coming back to a pop at Royal Rumble 2008 before the "smart" fans remembered they're supposed to hate Cena and went right back to booing him. 

But most of my Cena memories are bad ones. Like...

-Beating HHH at Wrestlemania 22. I was so pissed.
-Beating HBK at Wrestlemania 23. I was so pissed.
-"JBL Is Poopy"

Will he win another World title to set a new record?

Hope not. That would suck.

What would you like to see happen during his retirement run? Who do you think will be across the ring from him for his last match?

He puts over LA Knight on the way out. YEAH! 

I love the top comment of this video.

“People forgot they ‘hated’ Cena and just let their natural reactions take over.”

One of the smarkiest cities, in one of the smarkiest arenas, and everyone lost their collective minds when Cena returned. This is when I realized, most people who hate Cena don’t really hate Cena. They hate their dads for not telling them he was proud of them.

Jul 8, 2024 16:56:48 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

Jul 8, 2024 16:47:25 GMT Baker said:

Really? Watch any WWE show from 2005-2015. Hear those boos? Hear those "Cena Sucks" chants? Actually, half might be underselling it. Maybe I fully agree with Kilgore rather than "mostly" after all...

LOL. 11 years and over half the fans just rage hated on him but stuck around. For 11 years.

Umm...yeah. Using myself as a barometer, I almost never liked the top babyface. Couldn't stand Hogan, Bret, Diesel, HBK, or Austin. Yet I didn't just stick around for those 12 years. I loved it! Come on. Everyone on PW knows you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who liked 87-99 WWF more than I did. And that's with hating on the top babyface the entire time! So, it's no stretch at all for me to imagine Cena haters sticking around for Punk or Orton, or their workrate gods, or JUST BECAUSE THEY'RE PRO WRESTLING FANS just as I stuck around for my heel heroes, gimmick gods, and Undertaker because I too was a pro wrestling fan. Plus, you can't underestimate the fun that comes with daring to rage against the machine by rooting for the top guy's opponent. The heel challenger automatically becomes the plucky underdog against your Hogans and Cenas.

You my friend have mistaken a vocal minority for a majority. The only times I ever saw what I perceived to be a majority of fans blasting him was in a smarky crowd situation (One Night Stand, Money in the Bank). You have confirmation bias. You don’t like Cena and you heard people chanting Cena Sucks when you watched. Clearly the majority of the people agree with you. This fallacy is no different than people reading Twitter comments and saying “see, everyone feels this way.” When the reality is, a few feel that way. But hey.. I get it. You saw a “if Cena wins we riot” sign in the crowd so clearly the fans must hate him.

This is honestly a new line of Cena defense for me. A decade and a half back (wow I feel old) when I cared enough to argue, Cena defenders would be like "well, we have the women and children!" Now we're just pretending those Cena haters you heard every week in every building were "a vocal minority." Was everyone on the mid-late 2000s internet also a vocal minority? Or maybe it was just one guy with a thousand alts! Perhaps even me, Kilgore, or Shootist? Yeah, that's probably it. 

EDIT: I did mention that video Jeff just posted in my "Memorable Cena Moments" post and more or less felt the same way. Told you I'm more a Cena moderate than a true hater!

I said in the MiTB thread "ready to gush, the time is now" but that's only really half true.

From watching his CAW attire debut against Angle on SD, to becoming the freshest thing in the company and making teenage me laugh, to lifting Big Show, to retiring my favorite wrestling belt (you spinny son of a bitch, you're tacky! And I STILL hate you!) and becoming the cartoon schrodinger's heel mascot we all know and (mostly) love today:
~ It was never basic but Cena really did force me to feel respect him over time.

He was never my guy, not even close. But even at my most "fuck Cena" point of fandom, I could always understand and respect why he was for many (especially for kids) because I saw what that guy could do with a mic and how good he could work when unhindered by HLR (his "vitamins & prayers"). My problem was almost always 99% product, 1% Cena.

He's looked like the skateboard Steve Buscemi meme for a couple years now and Hollywood has been good to him, but him saying "It's time, isn't it?" was still such a weird emotion. Hearing it from his mouth suddenly made me want it not to happen for some reason, even though it should.

I just don't know whether that's a sentimental desire to see him wrestle again or grievance over John never getting his Hollywood Rock phase. Either way, and overall, he's not the GOAT: but no one should be shamed for throwing his name into the conversation, either.

Hope Cena gets Punk in his final match. A lot of history to draw from here so they can do the lead up just on the mics really.


Cena will be polarizing but one thing he does not get credit for but should is he helped clean up the imagine of WWE. When everyone got busted for drugs, Cena was the guy who was sent out to reform the imagine. All that make-a-wish stuff and his media stuff showed people that WWE is not all roided up drug addicts anymore. Sure hardcore fans found him bland, but he was the guy that families would be ok with their kids supporting. And Cena did this all while the sky was falling in terms of ratings as first wrestling cooled, then people moved off cable.

He will not be a GOAT, master of the mic, or ring technician, but he will be remembered as a loyal company man who would do whatever he could for the people he worked with.

This thread is everything I want it to be.

PW is all like:

Kilgore of course bringing in the logic and common sense

You love to read it.

Jul 8, 2024 19:25:47 GMT Emperor said:

John Cena, one of the most polarising wrestlers in history. I'm not only referring to the WWE fans, but PW itself. I vividly remember the arguments, the hyperbole from both sides.

Never change, PW. I'm looking forward to reading more.

This thread is like reading PW back when I joined in 2009. What a strange sense of nostalgia. I miss the Cena debates.

I grown to love Cena over the years but he was never my favorite guy. There were always a handful of guys ahead of him that I enjoyed and rooted for. I’m excited for his final run. Sounds like we will be here mostly full time too so that’s exciting.

Felt to me like they said his run would start around the Rumble. He still has Peacemaker 2 to film IIRC, among other things.