Sept 8, 2024 21:04:41 GMT c said:

So despite that being a crazy cagematch, people claiming that was the moment the line was crossed in wrestling really show how little they know of wrestling. Nowhere near as disturbing as the Starcade I Quit cagematch where Tully goes to take out Magnum's eye with a broken silver of a wooden chair. They paid tribute to it last night but that was a lightning in a bottle moment in the original match. This was the match for those who never seen it. Go 10 minutes in. The screams are chilling to this day.

That was also 1980-something, the industry has moved on. And if ECW is any proof of anything, it serves a niche market only.

Danielson vs Perry was very good. Perry proved himself at the highest level. The aftermath was pretty shocking. I had assumed the bag spot was used in Hangman/Swerve, but nope, it was Mox.

I think with violent wrestling there is money there its just all about marketing, stories, characters, and it being part of a bigger package. Like Onita in Japan selling out stadiums with that shit there was a lot more elements there other than the violence. Definitely think ECW could have easily been just as big as the UFC got during the 2004-2005-2006 era if they just had money being put into it on that level(and the right talent). Its all about style.

Sept 8, 2024 21:08:37 GMT c said:

Sept 8, 2024 21:00:10 GMT KJ said:

I gotta say, I think death matches are going to turn off more fans than they’ll bring in. And I don’t think it’s close.

I find this interesting as people loved the girl's deathmatch on the same show.  And everyone wanted Swerve and Hanger to murder each other.  The issue seemed to be a single needle spot because it made some people feel grossed out, which was the intention.

That said now they did it, no reason to return to that spot again, as like the bamboo skewers it gets old really fast.

I haven’t watched it, but my read online is women’s match was hardcore vs. death match. I could be wrong; that’s second hand.

There’s a way to “murder” your opponent without a death match, though. There have been hundreds of brutal hardcore matches that didn’t resort to torture porn theatrics.

Women match used all the deathmatch toys. Light tubes, tacks, barbwire, etc.

Think you nailed the problem, needles moves into torture porn. Like when Zandig did a suicide suspension in CZW and fans freaked out. Weedwackers, people getting cut to bone and sexy eddy cutting an artery in his arm were ok, but a few hooks in the back and they screamed it was too much.

And I will concede, Tony should not move into the torture porn side of deathmatches. Generally that style just gets boring ultrafast unless you are willing to go all the way how Freedoms does it, but Freedoms is far too dangerous shit to be doing regularly and def too polarizing for the US audiences. Was weird no one really complained when Kasai cut him with the cleaver though legit, but not sure many saw that match. They did see the wound reopen on live TV for months after now I think of it though, as was after that Mox started to bleed all the time.

Sept 8, 2024 21:27:10 GMT Ed said:

After Mox gave Bryan the kiss of death, his Clay Morrow from Sons Of Anarchy transformation was complete.

Does that make Marina his Gemma?

It might be obvious but a reddit comment just made me realize that the whole Hangman/Swerve feud was essentially a re-telling of Harvey Dent & The Joker from The Dark Knight and it makes me love it even more.

I know the whole “bad guy drags the good guy down to his level” story has been done before but I can’t think of when it has been done this well over this long of a time period. WWE almost went there with Bray/Cena but that feud was like a month long and ended with CENAWINSLOL anyway.

Wrestling is so good right now, you guys. You can watch any episode of anything and you’re probably gonna leave happy. Even the G1 was better than usual this year. Fucking right lets go

THE GOOD:
·Ospreay vs PAC easily stole the show. Bruv has now been involved in my Top 3 MOTY, dude is just on an insane stretch right now. Also: PAC is so damn underrated.

·Big props to Willow/Stat for how they followed that classic up. That was a reallllyyyy shitty position on the card and I thought they knocked it out of the park.

·Bryan/Perry was more fun than I expected. Perry definitely won me over more with this performance, he sold those running knees like a champ. I thought the Mox/Christian bit was well executed (no pun intended)

THE BAD:
·Mone/Shida was a clusterfuck. I don't hate her but Mercedes really needs to ditch the wigs, she was sloppy as shit and it clearly altered the match performance. Those two should be putting on bangers but it was just an awkward slosh. At least make suffering through a Shida title loss worth it.

·Unprotected chair shots, a cinder block, the god damn needle... So fucking dumb. At least the plastic bag on Bryan made for a decent visual. I know it's "lights out" and a story deserving of a brutal match, but it didn't need that. Decent storytelling otherwise but the bullshit hindered it big time.

·Needed more Toni Storm

·WHY CALL THEM 'FINISHERS' IF EVERYONE KICKS OUT OF THEM!?!? FFS

Sept 8, 2024 3:49:51 GMT RT said:

Sept 8, 2024 3:47:52 GMT Michinokudriver said:

so is swerve's house like undertaker's urn where it's his kryptonite?

Another Swerve wearing a red mask is gonna show up

In 2005, this post would’ve inspired the next season of Phenom’s MWF.

Sept 11, 2024 4:44:14 GMT KJ said:

Sept 8, 2024 3:49:51 GMT RT said:

Another Swerve wearing a red mask is gonna show up

In 2005, this post would’ve inspired the next season of Phenom’s MWF.

And it would have saved AEW's ratings.

All In was about sending fans home happy. All Out was about sending fans home horrified.

Sept 8, 2024 21:08:37 GMT c said:

Sept 8, 2024 21:00:10 GMT KJ said:

I gotta say, I think death matches are going to turn off more fans than they’ll bring in. And I don’t think it’s close.

I find this interesting as people loved the girl's deathmatch on the same show.  And everyone wanted Swerve and Hanger to murder each other.  The issue seemed to be a single needle spot because it made some people feel grossed out, which was the intention.

That said now they did it, no reason to return to that spot again, as like the bamboo skewers it gets old really fast.

I didn't find it squeamish, just dumb. Mainly the needle, the burnt shard and cinder block, which all took up a large focus of the match. Just give me the classics and stop booking like a 14 yo edge lord eager to impress me.

Sept 8, 2024 22:39:08 GMT Neo Zeed said:

I think with violent wrestling there is money there its just all about marketing, stories, characters, and it being part of a bigger package. Like Onita in Japan selling out stadiums with that shit there was a lot more elements there other than the violence. Definitely think ECW could have easily been just as big as the UFC got during the 2004-2005-2006 era if they just had money being put into it on that level(and the right talent). Its all about style.

Couldn't agree more. AEW's problem is they're one foot in, one foot out. And their hokey pokey sucks.

The "deathmatches" are too weak for those who love the genre, too cheesy or uncomfortable for casuals/those who don't. The former probably aren't watching anyways, but they could do a better job threading the needle for the latter, or just commit to hardcore instead (which they should).

Honestly, they aren't even really deathmatches imo, more often than not just an unusual prop spotfest.

The problem is they don't give anyone a reason to care.

Now, they've just blown their loads with Swerve v Hangman. They could have spent weeks, maybe a few months building it up. Promos cutting deep, separating the fighters from killing each other - that old chestnut, security running around the building to stop an incident constantly, a few hit and run type segments, chaos... like, actually made it seem like a big deal.

But no, premature again.

Hangman returned a while ago, his mission statement was to go after Swerve. It took, what, three months from his return to their blow off match? Hardly premature.

In between that you had Hangman reluctantly joining The Elite in War Games only because Swerve was on the other side. Then you had Hangman aiming to win the Owen Hart Cup to get his championship match against Swerve. Only after Wembley did they focus on Hangman vs Swerve 100% for the All Out match.

You could argue two weeks is not enough, but I would disagree. Mostly everything had been said and done in their past feuds but there was one final wonderfully executed segment showing that Hangman is truly unhinged. What could make it a bigger deal than a man burning a house down? Padding it out extra weeks could start to fatigue fans.

I stand corrected.

Maybe it feels odd because ALL IN was a week or so ago, and ALL OUT was a week later.

Giving WrestleDream is next month and Full Gear in November, maybe the booking could have been spaced out a little more to give fans some time to digest ALL IN and they'd have a hell of a main event for either PPV coming off months of build.

I do agree that the lack of a gap between All In and All Out was a bit jarring, but that's just because it's unconventional. They did a good job creating great cards for both events with solid builds.

In general, Swerve/Hangman was a 'good' feud in the sense that it elevated both men and was mutually beneficial in terms of defining their career.

However it just seemed muddled in places. I've written at length how ass-backwards the beginning of the feud was so I won't cover old ground. However even if we look at everything that took place between All In and All Out you had:

- Hangman having a long drawn out match with Ishii. The match was essentially Hangman beating Ishii at his own game and could have taken place on any AEW program from 2019-now.
- After the match, Swerve came out and they cut a face to face promo where he challenged Hangman to man-up for his cage match, while also revealing that he was invading Hangman's privacy and stalking him and his family
- Next week: Swerve reveals he just bought his childhood home only to reveal Hangman burned it.

No criminal convictions for Hangman.

It just seemed like a WWE angle where you handwave everything and on the same show where you're supposed to have this ultra-violent match - the entire thing gets upstages by Moxley attempting to murder Bryan in the ring.

Outside of giving Swerve and Hangman something to do and an excuse to have these ultra-violent gross-out matches what did it achieve? This isn't a new wrinkle in Hangman's character - he beat Moxley in a death match. If anything you've just made him an asshole. Swerve is still way too obsessed with another man and didn't use his new platform to establish himself - if anything he's just as despicable and unlikeable as before. You don't want to root for either guy and for whatever reason they keep thinking Ishii is some hidden spice that improves things - it's not the G1 - Ishii has never won a singles match in AEW - why is he being featured?

I can't deny that it didn't get over with the core fans, but I'm just left scratching my head.

Oh yeah and of course coming off this year long angle who else would appear but...

It begs the question, what was the point? What was this all leading to? I said earlier that it elevated both men which is true. However that's only because Hangman was completely aimless after he dropped the title to CM Punk and basically ended up right where he started - just as another guy in the Elite. Now he's just an asshole who is obsessed with Swerve. In a way it's created a whole other issue.

How do you market that? How do you print it on a T-shirt? Is Tony going to get the Talking Heads on board so Hangman can have some new music?

The issue is with AEW is that everyone in the company is completely unlikeable. Why would I want any of these people to succeed? What have they done to endear themselves?

These are the questions creative should be asking themselves. They have talent there that could appeal to the audience and actually get people to care whether they win or lose. However I think they get too caught up in the wrestling bubble of having great matches and trying to fit everyone on the show.

Sept 15, 2024 4:42:57 GMT Big Pete said:

The issue is with AEW is that everyone in the company is completely unlikeable. Why would I want any of these people to succeed?

Bingo.

Sept 8, 2024 22:57:30 GMT CM Punk'd said:

Sept 8, 2024 21:27:10 GMT Ed said:

After Mox gave Bryan the kiss of death, his Clay Morrow from Sons Of Anarchy transformation was complete.

Does that make Marina his Gemma?

Yeah. I think Marina could fill that role nicely.