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Post by 🤯 on Apr 22, 2019 0:18:44 GMT
Guess I'll need to participate here. Don't forget that IYH Jarret match Baker! I based my list more on personal preference than objectivity, and IYH#2 may or may not have ranked as my #1.
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Post by Ness on Apr 22, 2019 0:25:03 GMT
Guess I'll need to participate here. Don't forget that IYH Jarret match Baker ! I based my list more on personal preference than objectivity, and IYH#2 may or may not have ranked as my #1. I feel like I've been pimping this one and the ladder rematch at Summerslam 95 for as long as I've been on PW, gotta stick with my guns.
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Post by UT on Apr 22, 2019 20:53:57 GMT
So going forward this is what I was thinking:
7th Edition: Wrestlemanias 8th Edition: Shawn Michaels Matches 9th Edition: NWA/WCW - So Starrcade , Havoc , COTC or something else 10th Edition: Top 20 Factions
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Post by UT on Apr 23, 2019 13:55:42 GMT
So just got done with my Michaels list , got this guy had an incredible career. I sometime let my feelings towards him in his first run jade my perception but god damn. Really this list could have been split up into two parts and still had plenty of meat on the bone Pre back and post back injury. Also you could eliminate all of his Mania matches and STILL have enough great matches to fill out the list and put him up again anyone. Hey The Show - I expect ... no DEMAND a list from you for this topic. Get on it. Also I'm going to need help trying to figure out where to start with Starrcades. I don't know if I'll be able to get a list in time but would like to go back and watch what I can on recs. Big Pete and Shootist - sounds like a job for you guys.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2019 14:09:02 GMT
Oh gosh, putting together a top ten Shawn Michaels list will be incredibly hard for me because he has so many great matches. I immediately thought of three matches I’d rank at the top but have no idea what order to put them in. I also want to highlight some personal favorites that might not get enough love. This will take some time and a few rewatches but I will get a list in. He’s always been my favorite performer but in recent years the gap has narrowed as my taste for wrestling has changed. But now that it’s been years since he’s retired and his matches get older, my appreciation for this man’s work grows. I can’t wait to dive in!
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Post by Big Pete on Apr 23, 2019 15:40:39 GMT
So just got done with my Michaels list , got this guy had an incredible career. I sometime let my feelings towards him in his first run jade my perception but god damn. Really this list could have been split up into two parts and still had plenty of meat on the bone Pre back and post back injury. Also you could eliminate all of his Mania matches and STILL have enough great matches to fill out the list and put him up again anyone. Hey The Show - I expect ... no DEMAND a list from you for this topic. Get on it. Also I'm going to need help trying to figure out where to start with Starrcades. I don't know if I'll be able to get a list in time but would like to go back and watch what I can on recs. Big Pete and Shootist - sounds like a job for you guys. I bow down to Shootist is the expert, but from a broadstrokes POV.
Starrcade 1983-88 is what you'd expect the biggest show of the year to look like. Of the lot, 85 always stood out to me with Magnum/Blanchard and Flair/Rhodes. 89-92 is when they started treated the show like a gimmick PPV and you'd see round robin tournaments, tag team tournaments and a bunch of qualifiers for a big battle royal. 93 was a step in the right direction simply because they sold the hell out of Vader-Flair. 94 was two steps back because they went with Hogan-Beefcake in a match that belonged on Nick Jr. 95 was another gimmick show with WCW vs. NJPW and was just a mess. I thought there were better PPVs that year, but 1996 holds up pretty well and I think it would be the easiest show for somebody around our age group to get into. A lot of familiar faces and the production values were giving the WWF a run for their money at that time. 97 was the biggest show in WCW history and arguably it's biggest disappointment. I think it's well worth watching just to see how WCW squandered all it's momentum. For over 20 years, I've boycotted Starrcade 98. From all reports, the Cruiserweight matches are meant to be pretty good, even by today's ridiculous standards. 1999 was even worse than 1998 and was the point where it became obvious WCW was screwed even with Russo's direction. Benoit-Jarrett was a pretty good ladder match, both guys had tremendous chemistry together, but your enjoyment will come down to how much you can stomach Benoit. 2000 was OK, by this point WCW had basically given up and were just running together these solid shows.
Shootist can go into more detail, but I'd recommend starting with 1996 and then making your way through 83-88. From there, it's a real crap-shoot.
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Post by Shootist on Apr 23, 2019 19:04:16 GMT
Thanks for the consideration guys. I'll do a brief rundown of the early years and some other notable cards. 1983 should have been even bigger on paper (see my sig and the humorous description for the potential Hogan match) but it still set the tone. Valentine/Piper, Briscos vs Steamer/Youngblood and Flair/Race are all big time matches. It will still make my top 10. 1984 ended on a downer with the lame Flair/Rhodes finish, Blanchard/Steamboat could have been better as well, meh Big Pete is right, 1985 was the best of the Crockett years, the GOAT cage match and the best Flair/Rhodes match that I have seen despite the Dusty finish in the aftermath. Too bad the Road Warriors were still barnstorming around the country and couldn't make this card to challenge either the Andersons or the Koloffs. '86 still had the spectacle of the Skywalkers match and had the memorable Cornette bump. Flair/Nikita in the other main event was Flair by the numbers. This was also Crockett's biggest earner moneywise. 1987 was the big shift out of the Carolinas/Atlanta which many point to as the start of the downfall of JCP. Still it is worth watching for the Flair/Garvin chopfest, what a brutal (physically) match. Plus the Road Warriors have one of their best technical matches despite the Dusty finish against Tully and Arn. Windham/Williams also has a memorable botch which you rarely see in BW matches especially. 1988 was up and down. Luger's best match, Windham/Bam Bam could have been better, Road Warriors trying to be heels still but still getting the big pop. Steiner/Rotundo was good though. I liked what they tried to do with the 89-92 Starrcades in trying to make it different with the Iron Man and Lethal Lottery. Plus there are some gems to be had. If you have time I would check them out. Like Big Pete said 1993 was back to basics building it around Flair who had one of the best matches of his career when many thought he didn't have it, solid show. 1994 was probably the worst but heading into it I was still invested in what Savage was going to do Hogan after being apart in storylines for 5 years. Vader/Hacksaw had good slugfests and Nastys/Heat I will always back as an underrated feud. 1995 was interesting due to the NJPW guys, the real mess was the World title situation. Too many cooks in the kitchen, I would have gone just Sting/Luger straight up then Flair/Savage in the main event. 1996 was when the 'Monady Night War" vibe is first really prominent and would be the place to start for those familiar with WCW through documentaries. 97 and 98 was big stage in vibe but partly in retrospect were executed poorly. I was fully anticipating a Sting squash in 1997 while many in my crew were actually tired of Goldberg already and were just happy Nash got the belt by any means necessary. I also agreed with the result since Nash was so over but the Hall interference was kind of lame. I was starting to tap out by the end of 1999, I was disappointed Benoit was stuck with Jarrett but Bret/Goldberg had my interest going in. 2000 I don't really remember. So in summary 83 (if you can take the old school pacing, especially in the main event), 85, 89 (for the tourneys), 91-93, 96-98 would be the best representatives of what Starrcade was about at least concept wise.
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Post by UT on Apr 26, 2019 13:34:23 GMT
Lets keep those Shawn Michaels list coming.
Our next countdown after than is going to be WCW:
So Top Ten Starcades Top Ten Halloween Havocs Top Ten GABs Top Ten Clash of the Champions
Whichever one is fine with me , I'm equally dumb towards all of them.
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Post by 🤯 on Apr 27, 2019 1:35:05 GMT
Lets keep those Shawn Michaels list coming. Our next countdown after than is going to be WCW: So Top Ten Starcades Top Ten Halloween Havocs Top Ten GABs Top Ten Clash of the Champions Whichever one is fine with me , I'm equally dumb towards all of them. I'm equally dumb to WCW, and think I'd be more likely to be able to produce a lost of ten WCW PPVs or TV specials overall instead of limiting my choices to a single show brand. Would people be open to that?
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Post by Baker on Apr 27, 2019 2:06:31 GMT
Lets keep those Shawn Michaels list coming. Our next countdown after than is going to be WCW: So Top Ten Starcades Top Ten Halloween Havocs Top Ten GABs Top Ten Clash of the Champions Whichever one is fine with me , I'm equally dumb towards all of them. I'm equally dumb to WCW, and think I'd be more likely to be able to produce a lost of ten WCW PPVs or TV specials overall instead of limiting my choices to a single show brand. Would people be open to that? Seconded with the caveat that we include NWA as well.
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Post by Baker on Apr 27, 2019 2:44:46 GMT
Don't forget that IYH Jarret match Baker ! Not sure I'll be able to find room for it ![:(](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/sad.png) This is SHAWN MICHAELS we're talking about. There's a good chance I rate Michaels as having more good/great matches than any other wrestler. Which means I might vote for the Shawn Michaelsest of matches. A good example of what I mean is something like Survivor Series 2003, or the Backlash 2004 Triple Threat over the Wrestlemania 20 Triple Threat. We shall see....
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Post by Shootist on Apr 27, 2019 7:28:35 GMT
I'd be fine with NWA/WCW PPV's/TV specials as well.
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Post by 🤯 on Apr 27, 2019 11:13:44 GMT
I'm equally dumb to WCW, and think I'd be more likely to be able to produce a lost of ten WCW PPVs or TV specials overall instead of limiting my choices to a single show brand. Would people be open to that? Seconded with the caveat that we include NWA as well. Yes, JCP era NWA, right? Not NWA:TNA? I'm of course down for including that era NWA, as in my feeble mind I consider JCP NWA to just be WCW anyway.
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Post by Strobe on Apr 27, 2019 14:17:33 GMT
For anyone that hasn't done a HBK list yet, here is a match to consider. I didn't really remember it, but when seeing that blog I shared in the Match Review thread, he had this very high for 00s WWE. And it is fantastic. Shawn Michaels actively working holds, laying in his offence. It almost has the feel of a Flair/Steamboat competitive World Title bout at times in the sense that these are clearly two men trying to win. And that can be something lacking in HBK at times, looking more like a performer than a competitor.
A wrestling match doesn't always have to have the clearly defined stories or roles. The plucky challenger, the dominant champion, the injury that will be worked over, etc. At times, it just needs to be two people beating each other up and trying to win. And that is not the same as most modern matches that are clearly more about hitting all your spots and never actually looking like you are trying to win until you actually get to the finish.
This should've been the main event at Badd Blood 2004. Take this match, have it be a PPV main event and give it a proper finish and it would have been heralded as a classic. And it would've saved us from the HHH/HBK HIAC and Benoit having to defend against Kane.
Mania: Benoit makes HHH tap in Triple Threat with Crossface Backlash: Benoit makes HBK tap in Tripe Threat rematch with Sharpshooter in his hometown with Hebner as ref Bad Blood: Benoit beats HBK Vengeance: Benoit beats HHH but no Eugene nonsense and a proper finish
Then if you do the Orton match at SummerSlam, that would be an incredibly impressive PPV resume for a 5-month title reign.
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Post by 🤯 on Apr 27, 2019 15:50:01 GMT
Fuck, Strobe, you're making me pre-cum with all these epic idea seeds for a rebooked 2004 WWE.
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Post by Baker on Apr 28, 2019 1:05:44 GMT
Seconded with the caveat that we include NWA as well. Yes, JCP era NWA, right? Not NWA:TNA? I'm of course down for including that era NWA, as in my feeble mind I consider JCP NWA to just be WCW anyway. Yeah, JCP era NWA. NWA: TNA is a different thing entirely. The whole NWA/JCP/WCW thing is confusing as hell. Turner bought the company in November 1989. Yet they still used the NWA title until mid 1991. The promotion was also still referred to as NWA rather than WCW for years. Plus growing up I always called it NWA rather than JCP. Referring to it as NWA instead of JCP was a big pet peeve to many when I first got on the internet. Anyway, I'm excited for this NWA/WCW super show countdown. It's likely to be right up there with Heel Turns as my favorite one yet.
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Post by UT on Apr 28, 2019 13:27:06 GMT
What if we do NWA PPV's (pre WCW) and then we have room for a WCW PPV later on after the switch? That way we can still split them up and more PPV's get some love and attention. I just don't like the idea of every WCW/NWA PPV ever being widdled down to ten. Trying to give some equal love here. Though that is something we can do with ECW down the line.
Anyways - GET YOUR SHAWN MICHAELS LISTS IN!
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Post by 🤯 on Apr 28, 2019 14:43:57 GMT
What if we do NWA PPV's (pre WCW) and then we have room for a WCW PPV later on after the switch? That way we can still split them up and more PPV's get some love and attention. I just don't like the idea of every WCW/NWA PPV ever being widdled down to ten. Trying to give some equal love here. Though that is something we can do with ECW down the line. Anyways - GET YOUR SHAWN MICHAELS LISTS IN! Where's the line in time drawn between NWA and WCW?
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Post by UT on Apr 28, 2019 14:46:56 GMT
I would say , according to 12 seconds of research - January 1991.
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Post by Shootist on Apr 28, 2019 18:16:17 GMT
What if we do NWA PPV's (pre WCW) and then we have room for a WCW PPV later on after the switch? That way we can still split them up and more PPV's get some love and attention. I just don't like the idea of every WCW/NWA PPV ever being widdled down to ten. Trying to give some equal love here. Though that is something we can do with ECW down the line. Anyways - GET YOUR SHAWN MICHAELS LISTS IN! Where's the line in time drawn between NWA and WCW? Company identity wise November 1988, kayfabe titles is a little more confusing. They finally split with the NWA title recognition in the summer/fall of 1993 after reintroducing the NWA World and tag titles in the summer of 1992.
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Post by 🤯 on Apr 28, 2019 21:42:27 GMT
So now I'm confused. Can't we just do everything together?
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Post by UT on Apr 28, 2019 22:13:12 GMT
Can we just say fuck WCW for being dumb? I wanted to get more PPV's a spot to shine and considering they are widely different in everything I figured splitting them up made sense.
How about we go to the movie way of doing things and split them up into 80's and 90's and that's that?
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Post by Strobe on Apr 28, 2019 23:48:02 GMT
So now I'm confused. Can't we just do everything together? Up to Great American Bash 1988, it was NWA-affiliate Jim Crockett Promotions under the NWA banner.JCP was also known colloquially and for promotional reasons at times as Mid-Atlantic Championship Wrestling, which was the name of one of its TV shows. Turner bought the company in late 1988 and changed the company name to another one of its TV show names, World Championship Wrestling (itself taken from an Australian promotion that Jim Barnett used to work for). From Starrcade 1988 to Starrcade 1990, it was NWA-affiliate World Championship Wrestling under the NWA banner.In early 1991, when Flair won the NWA Title back from Sting, WCW declared him the WCW World Heavyweight Champion and began to distance itself from the NWA, as the name no longer held the same importance in the States. The NWA continued to recognise Flair as the NWA World Heavyweight Champion, so he was essentially a double World Champion, but it was the same physical belt, the Big Gold. This led to all the fuckery at the NJPW/WCW Tokyo Dome Show. It was presented as IWGP Champ Fujinami vs. NWA Champ Flair in Japan but they just referred to Flair as "World Champion" on the US airing. Fonzie got ref bumped, Fujinami back dropped Flair over the top (which is a DQ in WCW) which Fonzie saw while on the outside and New Japan ref Tiger Hattori jumped in to count the pin for Fujinami. This finish allowed Fujinami to be presented as the NWA Champion in Japan (and I don't think the NWA board were happy because they had played no part in the decision), while Flair could still be presented as WCW Champ back home. But since the physical NWA belt was also the WCW Title, Flair needed to get it back, so they ran a post-match press conference where Flair snatched the belt. This set up the rematch as the main event for the first SuperBrawl, which was presented as being NWA Champ Fujinami (but physically with only his IWGP belt) vs. WCW Champ Flair in Japan. But in the States, it had been presented as if Fujinami thought he had won the WCW Title at the Tokyo Dome, so it was billed as IWGP Champ Fujinami challenging for the WCW Title. Flair won and became the NWA Champion again, even though it was presented as simply a WCW Title retention on WCW TV. A couple of months later, Flair left WCW and was stripped of the WCW Title (of which a new physical belt would have to be commissioned) but continued to be recognised as the NWA Champ (meaning he could've worked as such in other promotions) until he signed with the non-NWA affiliate the WWF. Flair returned the Big Gold Belt but there was no NWA Champ determined for a year, until it was brought back and decided in the 1993 G1 Climax in New Japan, won by Chono. At SuperBrawl III, Windham won it from Muta so we had WCW and NWA Heavyweight Championships back in WCW yet again, but this time they were two different physical belts. Then at Beach Blast 1993, the returned Flair won the title. In September 1993, WCW finally left the NWA for good and renamed the Big Gold Belt as the WCW International Heavyweight Championship (which would be unified with the WCW Title in June 1994). So from WrestleWar 1991 to Beach Blast 1993, it was NWA-affiliate World Championship Wrestling but not under the NWA banner.
Finally... From Fall Brawl 1993 until closing in 2001, it was simply WCW with no NWA. Well, you did have nWo branded and co-branded shows as well, but that's storyline.There would be no NWA Champion for another year after they stripped Flair until they held a tournament at a then NWA-affiliated Eastern Championship Wrestling show. Shane Douglas won but then threw down the belt and proclaimed himself ECW Champion.
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Post by Baker on Apr 28, 2019 23:57:53 GMT
Can we just say fuck WCW for being dumb? I wanted to get more PPV's a spot to shine and considering they are widely different in everything I figured splitting them up made sense. How about we go to the movie way of doing things and split them up into 80's and 90's and that's that? I get where you're coming from. I just wonder how many of us would be able to fill out both lists. I don't think we have a ton of WCW/NWA enthusiasts here. My main reason for consolidating "NWA" & WCW into one was to make things easier for myself since I haven't actually seen a ton of WCW pay per views/Clashes. You're the boss though. I shall do my best if you decide to keep them separated. I just might have to send in abbreviated lists in that case.
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Post by 🤯 on Apr 29, 2019 2:13:21 GMT
Can we just say fuck WCW for being dumb? I wanted to get more PPV's a spot to shine and considering they are widely different in everything I figured splitting them up made sense. How about we go to the movie way of doing things and split them up into 80's and 90's and that's that? I get where you're coming from. I just wonder how many of us would be able to fill out both lists. I don't think we have a ton of WCW/NWA enthusiasts here. My main reason for consolidating "NWA" & WCW into one was to make things easier for myself since I haven't actually seen a ton of WCW pay per views/Clashes. You're the boss though. I shall do my best if you decide to keep them separated. I just might have to send in abbreviated lists in that case. Ditto this. #WWFloyalistproblems
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Post by UT on Apr 29, 2019 12:57:07 GMT
How about we say fuck WCW until we can figure something out and to a Top Ten ECW PPVs? This WCW one is annoying me.
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Post by UT on Apr 29, 2019 15:15:15 GMT
So how about ... a Top Ten War Games matches instead as a bridge? I'm grasping at straws here until we can figure out something for the WCW. And this is easier than going back and watching PPVs. Just watch the matches.
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Post by UT on Apr 30, 2019 13:38:52 GMT
So with the indecision , especially on my part we are just going to shelf the WCW list for now , and without feedback on the other options I think we are just going to go with an easy layup for the next countdown on a well known topic still worthy of a countdown. So our next countdown WILL BE: TOP TEN TERRIBLE GIMMICKS ; GET ME A LIST IN!
Also , last call for the Shawn Michaels list.
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Post by UT on Apr 30, 2019 13:48:32 GMT
And then #10 will be Stables/Factions. So I'll probably be asking for a list of 15 - just as a heads up. Then might take a break after 10 , not sure yet.
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Post by 🤯 on Apr 30, 2019 14:49:44 GMT
So with the indecision , especially on my part we are just going to shelf the WCW list for now , and without feedback on the other options I think we are just going to go with an easy layup for the next countdown on a well known topic still worthy of a countdown. So our next countdown WILL BE: TOP TEN TERRIBLE GIMMICKS ; GET ME A LIST IN!
Also , last call for the Shawn Michaels list. I love this audible topic! You make a good QB, UT... making the decisions that need to be made on the field when they matter.
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