Jun 24, 2019 23:41:39 GMT UT said:

Jun 24, 2019 23:35:13 GMT thereallt said:

I don't want to hear it.  GS won their first ring facing a Cleveland team without Kyrie or Kevin Love.  

I’m not saying anything , but to think that after a finals where they were down as many players as they were is the definitive finals on the dynasty is ridiculous.

Who is saying that? I haven't seen that anywhere.

The 5 trips is what defines them. Not how it ended.

Jun 24, 2019 20:01:40 GMT KING KID said:

In a history of “no buts”, which means 20-25 years from now; do you think people will still talk about the Warriors dynasty? Because not for nothing, they went 3-2 whereas Lebron went 3-6. I think Lebron going to 9 straight is way more impressive then the Warriors going to 5 with a 3-2 record. Also, that Bulls/Warriors convo is over. Bulls win.

Because 25 years from now, nobody is going to want to hear “but they faced Lebron” or “but KD and Klay got hurt.” I think history in sports isn’t a history of buts.

LeBron went to 8 straight.

It’s also not just the 5 Finals in a row (not that that isn’t really impressive on its own in an era desperate to create parity). They had a 16-1 playoff run in there, a 73 win season, and played in a significantly more competitive conference than LeBron. The Warriors 5 probably isn’t more impressive than Lebron’s 8, but that’s because his 8 is fucking incredible.

But to think they won’t be remembered is probably wrong. They dominated half a decade of basketball. They might also not be done. They (probably) aren’t going to the Finals next year, but if Klay comes back firing they might be the betting favorite in the West once the West balances out. No Durant this year, no real problem with a bunch of teams that don’t have great avenues to get better.

Jun 24, 2019 23:42:06 GMT RT said:

UT You're not gonna sell me on injuries, man. Durant didn't play at all and they made the finals. Iguodala got hurt against Portland, they still won, then he came back for the Finals. Cousins got hurt at the start of the playoffs, missed the whole thing, they won without him anyway, then he came back for the Finals. Looney is the only argument here and GSW can easily win without him.

Unless your argument is that those guys should have remained out because Golden State won without them, and they actually hurt the team by trying to play, then I'll listen. But otherwise you're just wrong and all the salty journalists saying we got robbed of a proper finals are too.

This argument makes no sense. That they won without the players in earlier rounds doesn’t mean they didn’t miss them in the most important round against the best team they faced.

Jun 24, 2019 23:43:01 GMT RT said:

Jun 24, 2019 23:41:39 GMT UT said:

I’m not saying anything , but to think that after a finals where they were down as many players as they were is the definitive finals on the dynasty is ridiculous.

Who is saying that? I haven't seen that anywhere.

The 5 trips is what defines them. Not how it ended.

The Kid, in this thread.

Jun 24, 2019 23:42:06 GMT RT said:

UT You're not gonna sell me on injuries, man. Durant didn't play at all and they made the finals. Iguodala got hurt against Portland, they still won, then he came back for the Finals. Cousins got hurt at the start of the playoffs, missed the whole thing, they won without him anyway, then he came back for the Finals. Looney is the only argument here and GSW can easily win without him.

Unless your argument is that those guys should have remained out because Golden State won without them, and they actually hurt the team by trying to play, then I'll listen. But otherwise you're just wrong and all the salty journalists saying we got robbed of a proper finals are too.

Huh?

So because they beat lesser teams leading up to the finals , those players didn’t matter against the best teams.

Take Lowry , Siakam and Ibaka off those Toronto teams and see what happens and if you don’t see injuries as a viable excuse. Not that they need excuses - shit happens and it sucks but let’s not pretend they didn’t play a huge factor in what happened either.

Still don't want to hear it. GS has benefited from other teams' injuries as much as anyone

2015- Kyrie and Love being injured in the Finals
2017- That goon Zaza injuring Kawhi vs. the Spurs
2018- Chris Paul being hurt vs. the Rockets.

Injuries are part of the game and you can only play who is in front of you.

Jun 25, 2019 0:13:46 GMT thereallt said:

Still don't want to hear it. GS has benefited from other teams' injuries as much as anyone

2015- Kyrie and Love being injured in the Finals
2017- That goon Zaza injuring Kawhi vs. the Spurs
2018- Chris Paul being hurt vs. the Rockets.

Injuries are part of the game and you can only play who is in front of you.

UT and mikec

Just gonna defer to this post.

Most of the players that were injured during the playoffs returned for the finals after the team still won without them. Durant is the only one they were truly missing, and while that's a big loss, they still won without him and the Raptors beat GSW during the season when they did have him.

You guys are acting like they beat a bunch of nobodies. Houston are okay. Portland had the same record and GSW swept them. Toronto is better, yeah, but not by a lot. And Toronto tried their hardest to choke twice in a row after going up 3-1. GSW had plenty of chances to take them out and just didn't.

These injury arguments weren't brought up in previous years when Golden State was winning. Toronto finally gets a championship and everyone has to go "oh well here's reasons why Golden State COULD have won.." nope. Sorry. You just mad, bro.

Nobodies even mad , it’s just common sense and coming from a place where you think we are taking anything away from Toronto. You won , good for you , so happy Canada can be relevant in sports , let’s all throw a party.

My initial comment had nothing to even do with Toronto , it had more to do with the Bulls and the dynasty but hey , go to town defending Toronto.

Jun 25, 2019 0:13:46 GMT thereallt said:

Still don't want to hear it. GS has benefited from other teams' injuries as much as anyone

2015- Kyrie and Love being injured in the Finals
2017- That goon Zaza injuring Kawhi vs. the Spurs
2018- Chris Paul being hurt vs. the Rockets.

Injuries are part of the game and you can only play who is in front of you.

Your soooo sage. Doesn’t mean that it doesn’t affect the outcomes of the fucking games.

Jun 25, 2019 0:21:01 GMT RT said:

Jun 25, 2019 0:13:46 GMT thereallt said:

Still don't want to hear it. GS has benefited from other teams' injuries as much as anyone

2015- Kyrie and Love being injured in the Finals
2017- That goon Zaza injuring Kawhi vs. the Spurs
2018- Chris Paul being hurt vs. the Rockets.

Injuries are part of the game and you can only play who is in front of you.

UT and mikec

Just gonna defer to this post.

Most of the players that were injured during the playoffs returned for the finals after the team still won without them. Durant is the only one they were truly missing, and while that's a big loss, they still won without him and the Raptors beat GSW during the season when they did have him.

You guys are acting like they beat a bunch of nobodies. Houston are okay. Portland had the same record and GSW swept them. Toronto is better, yeah, but not by a lot. And Toronto tried their hardest to choke twice in a row after going up 3-1. GSW had plenty of chances to take them out and just didn't.

These injury arguments weren't brought up in previous years when Golden State was winning. Toronto finally gets a championship and everyone has to go "oh well here's reasons why Golden State COULD have won.." nope. Sorry. You just mad, bro.

Mad about what? That’s just projection on your part to ignore common sense that it matters an NBA team lost a significant chunk of their roster in the playoffs. Has nothing to do with the Raptors, not a Warriors fan, and am perfectly fine with the argument that the Cavs might have won the first meeting had Kyrie/Love been healthy, and that the Warriors would have been more competitive had they not lost Durant, Klay, and Looney.

The team that made it to the Finals without Durant was good, but even with a healthy Klay they weren’t better than the Raptors, who were better than both Houston and Portland.

Real LT’s point is that injury luck happens and sometimes you benefit and sometimes you get the shit end of it and it doesn’t matter in the end is correct. But that had nothing really to do with your argument that because the injured Warriors won the West they were still a great team.

I wasn’t saying the Warriors shouldn’t be remembered. I was saying that history is sort of unforgiving. That’s all about that. I don’t think the Warriors are on a Bulls level at all.

Did you guys see Rodman’s interview on ESPN the other day? Dude is right. MJ would average 50 points a game in this league and the convo for the GOAT is not real. It’s still MJ. He also said that Draymond would be eating out of his hand. I can honestly see double ejections and suspensions for both players. 

Jun 25, 2019 1:28:23 GMT KING KID said:

I wasn’t saying the Warriors shouldn’t be remembered. I was saying that history is sort of unforgiving. That’s all about that. I don’t think the Warriors are on a Bulls level at all.

Did you guys see Rodman’s interview on ESPN the other day? Dude is right. MJ would average 50 points a game in this league and the convo for the GOAT is not real. It’s still MJ. He also said that Draymond would be eating out of his hand. I can honestly see double ejections and suspensions for both players. 

50 pts is a little ridiculous.  That hasn't been done since Wilt.


I could see Jordan get 40 a game in his prime though.

Why are we assuming Jordan would get more points now, in a league where zone defense is legal and he would have three people clogging his side of the court every time he took to drive? He doesn’t have Lebron’s body to put his head down and plow through and didn’t have the range to pull up from 29 feet, so what is giving him 10 points more per game?

I’m driven mildly crazy by this notion from old timers and people nostalgic for shittier basketball that because guys fouled harder in the 90’s they played better defense.

Jun 26, 2019 3:32:32 GMT mikec said:

Why are we assuming Jordan would get more points now, in a league where zone defense is legal and he would have three people clogging his side of the court every time he took to drive? He doesn’t have Lebron’s body to put his head down and plow through and didn’t have the range to pull up from 29 feet, so what is giving him 10 points more per game?

I’m driven mildly crazy by this notion from old timers and people nostalgic for shittier basketball that because guys fouled harder in the 90’s they played better defense.

No hand checking, defensive 3 sec rule, the spacing in today's NBA alone would be huge for Jordan. 

Jun 26, 2019 3:41:45 GMT thereallt said:

Jun 26, 2019 3:32:32 GMT mikec said:

Why are we assuming Jordan would get more points now, in a league where zone defense is legal and he would have three people clogging his side of the court every time he took to drive? He doesn’t have Lebron’s body to put his head down and plow through and didn’t have the range to pull up from 29 feet, so what is giving him 10 points more per game?

I’m driven mildly crazy by this notion from old timers and people nostalgic for shittier basketball that because guys fouled harder in the 90’s they played better defense.

No hand checking, defensive 3 sec rule, the spacing in today's NBA alone would be huge for Jordan. 

I am not a believer in the hand checking being as big a barrier to a 6’6” shooting guard with Jordan’s gifts as it was for others, there wasn’t a defensive 3 seconds then but there was illegal defense which forced 1 on 1 and kept defenders from camping out just the same, and the spacing maybe I buy except I still don’t think Jordan as a scorer was so considerably more gifted than LeBron, Kobe, Harden, etc to suggest that in the same era he’d be scoring 10-20 more points per night.

Handful of things the other direction - the league is more athletic now so he’d have more difficult challenges on the defensive end and his career average minutes per game is higher than any player from a season ago. There’s no way he’d be playing in today’s up and down league as many minutes as he could in the plodding 90’s.

Harden scored 36 a game this season and he can't even play off ball.

Kobe's entire game is lifted from Jordan, only Kobe was less efficient, and Lebron is more of an all-around player offensively than a pure scorer.

I mean he can play off ball, he did really well in OKC. But when you’re as ball dominant as he is in that system, then you’re not going to play as well off ball (and he had the bad attitude obviously this year)

But if you add in Jordan playing off ball, you have to consequently take away the three ball that Harden has and Jordan didn’t.

Jordan wasn't bad at 3's. Almost 33% over his whole career. Same as Kobe. Could argue he'd be be higher if he took more but he didn't have to because he could dominate with fade aways and driving to the net, and had Steve Kerr on his team for 3 years.

I don't think he posts 40-50 points a game though, and the main reason is Jordan being triple-teamed and getting molested every time he tries to drive to the net. Fouls are more relaxed than they were 20-25 years ago, and Jordan didn't handle getting fouled well. Dude threw a tantrum every time the refs didn't make as many calls as he thought they should have.

I think he puts up around the same points totals and has to rely on his fade away and 3 game more. Hard to say where he ends up but I think he's about the same.

You also have to take into account the fact that the lane to the basket and the paint is more wide open. Jordan was constantly contested by multiple bigs when driving but these days bigs hang out in space and even by the three point line a lot more - he would dominate in the paint without having to constantly get killed by giant oak trees.

Jun 26, 2019 16:35:01 GMT UT said:

You also have to take into account the fact that the lane to the basket and the paint is more wide open. Jordan was constantly contested by multiple bigs when driving but these days bigs hang out in space and even by the three point line a lot more - he would dominate in the paint without having to constantly get killed by giant oak trees.

Yeah instead he just has to deal with considerably more athletic big men that can close in a hurry and just stand in his way wherever he is on the court instead of having to pull off their guy who is on the other side of the lane.

It’s generally impossible to figure out where we’d be with Jordan’s scoring in 2019 because it’s a completely different game. I just get irritated by the “yeah, because people don’t hit you as much” type BS that comes around. He wouldn’t be playing in the triangle, he’d be ball dominant running around pick and rolls constantly, and teams would hover their defenses to have a few taller guys between him and the basket at all times. The game would be faster paced so maybe he’d get more possessions but he’d be on the court considerably less so that would work against it. I assume he’d have a better 3 pointer, but probably at the expense of some of his midrange game like the turnaround that he developed.

I assume he’d be in the same place, ten points higher sounds incorrect and 20 points like Rodman is suggesting is crazy town.

Jun 26, 2019 17:52:38 GMT mikec said:

Jun 26, 2019 16:35:01 GMT UT said:

You also have to take into account the fact that the lane to the basket and the paint is more wide open. Jordan was constantly contested by multiple bigs when driving but these days bigs hang out in space and even by the three point line a lot more - he would dominate in the paint without having to constantly get killed by giant oak trees.

Yeah instead he just has to deal with considerably more athletic big men that can close in a hurry and just stand in his way wherever he is on the court instead of having to pull off their guy who is on the other side of the lane.

It’s generally impossible to figure out where we’d be with Jordan’s scoring in 2019 because it’s a completely different game. I just get irritated by the “yeah, because people don’t hit you as much” type BS that comes around. He wouldn’t be playing in the triangle, he’d be ball dominant running around pick and rolls constantly, and teams would hover their defenses to have a few taller guys between him and the basket at all times. The game would be faster paced so maybe he’d get more possessions but he’d be on the court considerably less so that would work against it. I assume he’d have a better 3 pointer, but probably at the expense of some of his midrange game like the turnaround that he developed.

I assume he’d be in the same place, ten points higher sounds incorrect and 20 points like Rodman is suggesting is crazy town.

There’s pros and cons to the era , I know it’s a more athletic and physically demanding game these days with the effort levels but I also don’t believe for a second that would deter MJ all that much , it’s not like he was a passive average athlete.

It would really all depend on his three point game keeping teams honest - but it’s also MJ and if three pointers were what he needed to add to his game than he would do so. The guy had insane levels of work ethic.