Holy fucking shit dude. I read too fast and when we got to Survivor Series 2002 and then I was getting upset. 🤯 that's not what happened. I even started questioning myself and going to wiki. I KNEW IT! Oh wait, this is rebooking. I gotta start over from the beginning.

Time for a quick-fire catch-up with the guys from my list. I’’m so sad I haven’t kept up commenting with this thread - but I’ve read every post and I’ve loved it Baker ,.

Goldust is a surprise at how high I have him. I think I made a mistake - he should be in my fifty but he’s certainly not my 21st favourite wrestler of all time. He is incredible though - for me, my love for Goldust comes purely from his in-ring work. My first exposure to him was when he returned in 2002 and I didn’t get the character at all at first. I loved the Booker tag team, but I didn’t really get it. My next exposure was watching old WCW and I fell in love with The Natural. I was really into ‘wrestlers’ at that time and I couldn’t believe this wacky Goldust guy was such a good wrestler. Then when he returned to the WWE he became one of those old timers who could be on a solid 3 star match with anyone, and elevated everyone he worked with. The run with Cody was one of the best short tag team runs in history and he should have had a proper pay-per-view match with Orton that could have been an all-time classic. Loved his match with Cody in AEW and I think everyone who wants to know how to work smart should just study Goldust and see someone who got better after his prime by making everything he does count.

Sasha Banks meanwhile feels a biT low. I suppose that’s the cost of doing nothing interesting when I made my list - and now she is so feels like she should be a little higher. Sasha is a legit star and I do not understand why she wasn’t the face of the division like Becky was. She was so over, even when off tv and they refused to capitalise on it. Her feud with Charlotte was shaping up to be one of the best in WWE history (male of female) with an all-time great Raw moment when she made her tap in the crowd - but then they kept pulling the rug out from under her. I think she has all the tools to be a genuine main event star in the WWE and every time they give her a chance to shine, she knocks it out of the park.

Okada just has too many incredible matches to not make my list. I didn’t want to like him - New Japan was all about Nakamura and Tanahashi for me, and so Okada coming in and getting this mega push when he was a jobber in TNA felt so wrong and I couldn’t see how it worked. Instead he produced maybe the greatest rivalry of all time with Tanahashi and proceeded to become on of the greatest in-ring talents of all time. Then the storyline with Omega, and losing his confidence and then regaining it was just masterful storytelling. Okada got a monster pop in a Japan by taking off his trousers - and not in a sexy Angel Garza way - but by showing he was back to the best. He’s just an absolute master of his craft. He has all the natural ability of a Randy Orton but with genuine work ethic that makes him the ultimate prototype wrestler.

Raven was an early favourite when I started watching wrestling because he looked so cool and was an instant favourite in video games. I always wanted to play as Raven. He was fine in WWE but he wasn’t a favourite - but I was the perfect age for enjoying him in ROH with CM Punk and then his awesome run as NWA champion in TNA in 2005 or whenever when TNA was my favourite promotion.

Arn Anderson makes my list as he was such a surprise to me. He looked like a supermarket security guard so I immediately assumed he sucked when I first came across him as Ric Flair’s old friend in WWE in 2002. Going back and watching the Four Horsemen though made me fall in love with him. Everything he did made sense and looked like it hurt. I’ve no idea why he resonated with me so much more than Tully, but I always pop for Arn.

Kevin Owens is one of the few guys I watched from the ground up more or less and so I took so much pleasure in seeing his rise from generic wrestler guy to tag guy to GOAT feud with Generico, to face of ROH, to fun PWG run, to GOAT NXT debut, to CEna open challenge, to Universal Champion. I popped so hard when he debuted against Cena as that’s how I debuted him in Fan Fiction. (They’re always stealing our ideas @thekid KING KID). I think he should be a very top guy. He can talk, has a unique look, can be top tier as a face or a heel, and can work any style you want in the ring.

Trish was always a second to Lita in my books, even though looking back I know that Trish was much better. I love how she proved everyone wrong, refused to be a stereotype, always got better and worked her ass off. So glad she got that match with Charlotte to show that she was more than capable of working top level matches if she wasn’t held back.

I got into New Japan because Holzhammer had Tanahashi and Nakamura in his fan fiction and I wanted to learn who they were. Tanahashi is just the ultimate baby face champion. He’s John Cena but with the whole crowd behind him. If I had to pick one wrestler to not let me down in a big match situation, it would be hard to look past Tanahashi.

I have no idea why Matt Hardy was always my favourite over Jeff but he was even during the Hardy Boy days. Matt Hardy version 1 was probably my favourite wrestler overall during that run - I was just so behind him. Same again during the Edge feud. He was amazing as a ‘good hand’ guy in Smackdown and ECW then his rise to the TNA Championship was amazing storytelling. I thought the Broken stuff was very cool at the start as a deluded guy who had lost touch with reality, but I’m not a fan of him as this guy with actual supernatural powers it has become.

Nakamura may be the coolest wrestler of all time. His NXT debut match against Sami Zayn is one of my favourite matches and moments of all time and I still get so angry that they messed him up on the main roster, despite getting super over.

Orton benefited from finally being interesting in real life for the first time in a long time - so he’s a little high on my list as he has been so boring so often. But his IC Title run is one of my favourites ever.

I forgot Samoa Joe who should definitely be on my list, and higher than Orton.

Asuka is my favourite modern wrestler. Everything she does feels important and significant. I was very worried when they called three of the four horsewoman up at once from NXT that the Women’s Division would really stagnate, but not only did Bayley prove herself as a great champion working with lesser talents, but Asuka slowly rose up the ranks building anticipation and getting people excited for the future. An amazing undefeated streak and can get a good match out of anyone. That WWE booking has failed her so often, yet she keeps coming back because they can’t ignore her talent, shows just how good she is. So glad she did so well in this list and finished higher than Hulk Hogan.

I love how high JBL finished - this may be the most hilarious PW moment ever for me. I always loved APA, but JBL was just wrestling perfection. I was ready to hate it, but then came Judgment Day and one of my favourite matches ever. Any doubts I had that JBL could be a top guy vanished in an instant after that match. I love a heel run as long as it stays interesting and I thought they did a great job of giving JBL top tier opponents so that you always thought he would lose and he never did.

Edge feels low on my list. I definitely like Edge more than Goldust - maybe I just wanted Baker, to like my list. Edge was just always a favourite of mine with no breaks. I never understood when people were bored by him or didn’t enjoy him. I never understood why people didn’t like his spear. Great talker, very good wrestler, but always interesting. His recent WWE documentary of his comeback may be the best doc they’ve ever produced so go watch it if you can. Edge has always been super honest and articulate about why he loves wrestling and that has always gelled with me.

I loved everyone dunking on Lionheart for thinking Rey was boring - but I think lots of you didn’t watch Rey for the last few years of his WWE run - he was very very boring and almost ruined his legacy with me. He was super bulky and slow and always injured it was painful. How could one of the most exciting wrestlers in the history of wrestling not just hang them up? His recent return has totally redeemed that for me and he not only has had huge success with his medical procedures, but he works much smarter, and is still innovating. There was no one more exciting to watch than Rey MYsterio in his prime. He made the impossible possible and was just such a thrill to watch. 

LOVED Regal placing so high. I loved him instantly because he was British but others have summarised so well why he’s great. Fantastic character work and fantastic ring-work. A real chameleon in terms of his abilities to play so many different roles.

Triple H was my favourite wrestler for many years. I think he has some real stinkers that go against him, but he always feels important, and everything he does feels significant. He’s also a part of some of my favourite matches ever.

Christian gets here for having the balls to go to TNA when TNA was my favourite place. Him winning the Title and the fans swarming the ring was just such a great moment. Christian was such a smart worker, and while he sometimes felt like he was trying too hard on the mic, he could fill a variety of roles really well. You’ll have noticed the recurring theme of older guy putting on three-star matches every week with young up and comers in my list, and Christian held this role for years in the WWE very very well.

I don’t understand how people don’t like Brock. I think people sometimes get confused by his character and so think he genuinely hates wrestling. I think it’s just so obvious that he loves the art of wrestling, and I think few people put as much into their matches as he does. All time great bumper. All time great look. All time great match resume. He can’t talk at all, but he has an all time great manager. He just has it all, plus he feels special in an era when nothing feels special. Love Brock Lesnar.

Unlike Lesnar, I totally understand why people don’t like Cena - but I just can’t love someone who delivers as much as he does. I think there are very few wrestlers ever whose top ten matches match up to Cena’s top ten matches. He brings out the best in so many opponents. Even his clumsy style appeals to me since it looks like he’s genuinely fighting and struggling to pull things off rather than being so smooth it looks choreographed. I actually loVe that he never turned heel as he gave us this once-in-a-lifetime character that created so many interesting feuds and environments. The rise of the Indy darlings would never have worked so well in WWE if not for the protagonist of uber-WWE John Cena.

AJ Styles was MR TNA when I loved TNA. Then he proved he was more than that by Doing amazing work in New Japan. Then he proved himself by becoming one of the cornerstones of WWE. So he’s just unbelievable.

3. John Cena
6. AJ Styles
10. Asuka
13. Brock Lesnar
14. Kota Ibushi
15. Kevin Owens
16. Lita
17. Triple H
18. AJ Lee
19. Matt Hardy
21. Goldust 
22. Edge
23. William Regal
24. Sami Zayn
25. Christian
26. Shinsuke Nakamura
27. Bayley
28. Hiroshi Tanahashi
30. Charlotte Flair
31. Sasha Banks
33. JBL
34. Nigel McGuinness
35. Kazuchika Okada
36. Finlay
37. Randy Orton
38. Arn Anderson
39. Rey Mysterio
40. Sheamus
41. Zack Sabre Jr.
42. Kofi Kingston
43. Nikki Bella
44. PAC
45. Raven
46. Ronda Rousey
47. Jamie Noble
48. Trish Stratus
49. Jeff Jarrett
50. Jerry Lawler

Jun 14, 2020 14:33:41 GMT PB said:

I don’t understand how people don’t like Brock. I think people sometimes get confused by his character and so think he genuinely hates wrestling. I think it’s just so obvious that he loves the art of wrestling, and I think few people put as much into their matches as he does. All time great bumper. All time great look. All time great match resume. He can’t talk at all, but he has an all time great manager. He just has it all, plus he feels special in an era when nothing feels special. Love Brock Lesnar.

I think it's because the human being Brock Lesnar is not a very likeable person, and he doesn't hide it. From the very beginning he's presented himself as this brute who doesn't give a fuck about people, doesn't like to speak, just loves to wrestle and brutalise other human beings. It's the classic wrestling character of the actual personality amplified 100 times. Lesnar is a loner. He doesn't like to be around people. He lives on a ranch in the middle of nowhere. That's who he is, and he doesn't hide that. Being around thousands of people is an endurance test for him. He does it because he's the best, and it earns him a lot of money.

Many people's first impression of Brock Lesnar is DISLIKE for those reasons, then he gets pushed to the moon time and time again, gets to work this part time schedule while being booked as a god, all while appearing to be reckless in the ring. All these factors fuel that initial resentment. He's not trying to be liked, because he's a heel, and when he does try to be liked (such as the failed face turn 🤯 has just written about), it doesn't work very well.

But the reason all these great things happen to Lesnar is precisely because he's incredibly good at his job. It's not undeserved in the least.

I agree that it's obvious that he loves wrestling, he understands the business as well as anyone, knowing how to market himself in the most effective matter, and he puts more into his craft than almost anybody else. If Lesnar truly didn't care about pro-wrestling and only cared about the paycheck, as his detractors believe, there's no way he would have lasted as long as he has or become as good as he is.

Jun 14, 2020 15:17:58 GMT Emperor said:

Jun 14, 2020 14:33:41 GMT PB said:

I don’t understand how people don’t like Brock. I think people sometimes get confused by his character and so think he genuinely hates wrestling. I think it’s just so obvious that he loves the art of wrestling, and I think few people put as much into their matches as he does. All time great bumper. All time great look. All time great match resume. He can’t talk at all, but he has an all time great manager. He just has it all, plus he feels special in an era when nothing feels special. Love Brock Lesnar.

I think it's because the human being Brock Lesnar is not a very likeable person, and he doesn't hide it. From the very beginning he's presented himself as this brute who doesn't give a fuck about people, doesn't like to speak, just loves to wrestle and brutalise other human beings. It's the classic wrestling character of the actual personality amplified 100 times. Lesnar is a loner. He doesn't like to be around people. He lives on a ranch in the middle of nowhere. That's who he is, and he doesn't hide that. Being around thousands of people is an endurance test for him. He does it because he's the best, and it earns him a lot of money.

Many people's first impression of Brock Lesnar is DISLIKE for those reasons, then he gets pushed to the moon time and time again, gets to work this part time schedule while being booked as a god, all while appearing to be reckless in the ring. All these factors fuel that initial resentment. He's not trying to be liked, because he's a heel, and when he does try to be liked (such as the failed face turn 🤯 has just written about), it doesn't work very well.

But the reason all these great things happen to Lesnar is precisely because he's incredibly good at his job. It's not undeserved in the least.

I agree that it's obvious that he loves wrestling, he understands the business as well as anyone, knowing how to market himself in the most effective matter, and he puts more into his craft than almost anybody else. If Lesnar truly didn't care about pro-wrestling and only cared about the paycheck, as his detractors believe, there's no way he would have lasted as long as he has or become as good as he is.

Brock = Alonzo.

8. Owen Hart

Seeing Owen for the first time in Stampede was like a lightning bolt to the brain. He clearly was a level above when it came to sheer athleticism in the ring when compared to the likes of Dynamite Kid. He quickly became my favorite Stampede guy as he became the top face in the promotion. He could also sell and had great charisma in working the crowd to go along with the great movez. I really don't remember much about his initial Blue Blazer run and thought he wasn't being used to full potential in his teams with Anvil and Koko. Baker was right that it felt like a gamble launching Owen into Bret's arch nemesis but he took the ball and ran with it. He used his arsenal as a bit of one-upmanship on Bret to gain even more heat and was an effective promo coming across as the whiny, slighted youngest of the clan. Still one of my favorite moments in wrestling was Owen triumphantly coming back from his keen injury to pin the hated Stone Cold at Canadian Stampede. Inevitably we was misused after Bret left for WCW and it all culminated in that horrific accident. Over twenty years later it took me 3 days to get through his Dark Side Of The Ring episode, just heart wrenching. 

23. Kurt Angle

I actually do remember Kurt Angle winning the gold medal in 1996. I thought this guy with an unusual name was a huge crybaby as he was weeping on the podium. Nearly a year later via vhs I saw his infamous ECW debut where he ended up leaving after The Sandman was crucified and thought he was kind of bland and too preppy for ECW. He quickly became a favorite as he acclimated himself so seamlessly to the pro game. He had it all and was an equal to the Rock as a foil for Steve Austin which says volumes about how well he got the entertainment aspect. After Austin and Rock were winding down their full time runs I thought Angle would have been a perfect successor as the face of the company. Alas, he was demoted to ECW and WWE ran with Cena. Angle though continued his great run with his long feud with Samoa Joe in TNA producing some of the best matches in company history. I also had to tune in to see in WWE return a few years back and he was a rare bright light in the sea of mediocrity. Probably the best late bloomer in wrestling history.

32. Brock Lesnar

I too thought it was a bit of overkill the way Brock was pushed initially. It wasn't until I saw his full abilities against Kurt Angle that I started to warm up to him. I was fully in on his comeback in 2012 as he gave WWE a sense of legitimacy. Unfortunately his defeat of the Undertaker (which I backed at the time) made Brock somewhat limited and his squash of Cena further made him a less interesting in ring commodity with the suplex spam. Brave booking choices though like losing to Goldberg so quickly still gave a sense of unpredictability and retained a bit of that MMA feel where matches can turn on an instant. Overall he's had one of the more interesting careers for post 2000 guys as the top rookie, unstoppable monster who could also lose in an instant and a special attraction. He is one of the few who still tries to blur those lines to engage the audience.

Christian

Like Edge mostly a mention due to his tag work. I didn't really see them as a team with a Shawn/Marty dynamic, I thought they were pretty equal. Christian could more than keep up with Edge on the mic and he was a great bumper and seller. His singles career has been hit or miss, I was a fan of his feud with Randy Orton but he was mostly a dud as a top guy in TNA. He's a case in point of why not everyone deserves to be the world champion at some point or another. He's at his best when complementing the top matches by spicing up the midcard.

AJ Styles- Was in the 110s on my big list. C&P time....

AJ spent most (all?) of his career a 6/10 "pretty cool" guy. I liked AJ. He was an athletic freak and good wrestler. Plus he got just enough criticism that I didn't feel too guilty about liking him (I had a bit of an anti-smark streak even when I was hardcore into ROH/TNA/Indie wrestling). But I never loved AJ. Simply because he never had much of a hook beyond Good Wrestler Guy. And Good Wrestler Guys were a dime a dozen by the time AJ came along.

Anyway, my favorite period of AJ's career was when he was the goofball "Pride of Gainesville Tech" in a TNA stable with Christian & Tomko. I also liked how he was versatile enough even as a flippy youngster to have fun matches with guys like Sandman & Zbyszko which veered well outside his comfort zone. I'm also glad he finally ended up having a WWE run. Dude deserved it after a decade+ of putting in the work. By all accounts, he seems to have done well there. Good for him. Almost certainly has more good/great matches than anybody else in TNA history. Yet my favorite AJ match came against Paul London in ROH. Brilliant stuff.
=============================
John Cena- Just barely cracked my Top 200 because I loved his "Doctor of Thuganomics" run in 2003. More C&P....

John Cena was boring before Halloween 2002. He was either boring, bad, or both from like Early 2004-Today. But his run as the rapping Doctor of Thuganomics was one of the best things in wrestling for a year.

Cena was killing it every week on Smackdown. The raps....the swank throwback jerseys.....the occasional good match. He had "it" in spades. His character was ready made for feuds. All it took was one rap and voila! Instafeud. 2003 Cena also had balls of steel what with calling out big dogs Taker and Brock. I was in the building when he tore the house down with Angle at No Mercy 2003 and distinctly remember having a conversation with my friend Boo about how Cena was The Next Big Thing. Sometimes it sucks to be right.

He became boring again right after he turned face. I was done with Cena long before most people, and certainly well before he became the face of the company. For a few years I loathed Cena as much as anyone before growing to grudgingly accept the fact that he was not the worst thing in the world. The awesome Umaga match in particular won me over to a point where I would again grudgingly defend Cena against haters who still insisted he sucked in the ring.

Still, never again would I even come close to being a John Cena fan after 2003. His victories over HHH & Michaels at back to back Wrestlemania's brought back that old school "it's still real to me" anger I felt as a youngster whenever one my favorites lost to a wrestler I didn't like. His character was lame and boring. He could have stood to lose more often than he did. His offense sucked. I still rooted for his opponent 95% of the time. But I thought it was unfair to say Cena "sucked" or "couldn't wrestle" after he had so many good/great matches.

I'd rate Cena about equal to WWWF Champion Bob Backlund on an all time list. 

#11 Randy Savage
12 Votes-438 Points
High Vote: #5
Last Time: #11



#12 Undertaker
14 Votes-420 Points
High Vote: #4
Last Time: #3

I was one of the high votes at #4 for Undertaker. Taker falling from #3 to #12 is a pretty steep decline given the general lack of movement among those around him.

Wonder if the recent bad Taker stuff (AJ match obviously not included) caused him to drop down. Nice to see Savage remain consistent. Still love that WM5 promo to death, which I'm still surprised he doesn't just keel over Eddy Guerrero hotel bathroom style at the end of it considering how red and intense as fuck it is.

Macho Man; always a bridesmaid, never the bride.

I was the high vote for Savage. He was my favourite wrestler when I was a kid and first getting into wrestling.

NOBODY DOES IT BETTER.

Jun 14, 2020 14:16:54 GMT 🤯 said:

Jun 13, 2020 16:21:16 GMT 🤯 said:

It was a weird time. WMX8 was in the books, and a better show than expected despite the wet church fart main event after Rock/Hogan. I think I was still convinced the WWF was dead and dying, just a matter of how long life support could sustain things. The looming brand split sounded more like a bad idea than a good idea. It was like if they didn't pull the trigger on that idea when it would've made sense in 2001 with the acquisition of WCW & ECW, how was it gonna make sense now? Especially with the bad taste of the Invasion and botched nWo debut still fresh in our mouths?

Woe was this Debbie Downer... Until this literal vanilla gorilla popped up outta nowhere on a nothing segment of RAW and absolutely WRECKED Spike Dudley, Al Snow, and maybe Maven? Spike's sell job in particular was amazing. Spike doesn't get the credit he deserves for being pro wrestling's greatest rag doll. Anyway... It was honestly more the MOVEZ!!~ that instantly hooked me on Brock than Brock himself. That repeating no-release powerbomb was a dream come true. A move I'd always assign to my CAW avatars. So in a way, seeing Brock in that moment was like seeing the perfect personification of one of my CAWs.

Heyman barking in Brock's corner was a secondary observation, but equally crucial. No one had managers at the time. So this made Brock seem special. And Paul had been Mia for long enough that I was even missing him. Last memory was his epic "pro wrestling is a dirty word" promo on Vince. 2001 made me love Paul, so I was happy to see him back and in a unique role for the time period and paired with a clearly cool new talent.

Because of the botched Hardy Boyz breakup angle in late 2001 and early 2002, I was actually kinda out on both Hardyz around this time period. So I had no issues personally with them being initial jobber fodder for Brock. I liked the approach too. Initially it was skeezo Heyman lusting after Lita that drew Matt's ire, as he stood up for his outta-his-league GF. But then Lesnar murdered Matt, so Jeff had to slot in now to stand up for his big bro and his big bro's grrrl. And Jeff is perhaps the one guy who can rival Spike as pro wrestling's most epic rag doll.

The TKO finish to Brock's PPV debut against Jeff felt so different and fresh. The match itself was interesting. Brock was clearly green and still figuring certain things out, so it felt reckless and dangerous and even real at certain points on some levels. Over the next few months it actually became a fun journey watching Brock experiment and evolve to settle on certain aspects of his in-ring game. Like how he eventually stopped using the repeat powerbombs as a finish and settled on the F5.

As Brock continued popping up and wreaking havoc on jobbers and midcard guys, I was already all-in fantasizing about his eventual world title win. At the time, I was still a silly old believer in working your way up through the ranks though. So I thought Brock should win the Hardcore Title first (since he debuted by murdering and burying that division). He had already no-sold a chair shot to the head by this point, I think... So my idea was he didn't need weapons and wasn't affected by them. His hands were his weapons. And they were legit lethal.

The idea would be after holding the Hardcore Championship hostage for so long, and with Heyman as his manager, Brock would start targeting IC Champ RVD. Premise being Heyman hating RVD for turning his back on him and ECW after all Heyman and ECW had done for RVD. Feud would've seen Brock murder Team Xtreme, Bubba Dudley, Spike Dudley, Tommy Dreamer, and any other relevant ECW alumni en route to his clash with RVD. Everything would've dovetailed in with Brock beating RVD in the finals to become 2002 KOTR. Then, the rematch at Vengeance sees Brock win the IC belt.

Instead of pushing him to the world title at SummerSlam, I was still envisioning a slow burn but via an absurd push wherein Brock the Belt Collector was acquiring all the other hardware. As Hardcore and IC Champ, he'd squash whoever to pick up the European belt on a RAW. Then, he'd singlehandedly beat Hogan & Edge (thanks to some Un-American interference perhaps) to win the tag belts. He'd be forced to pick a partner or else vacate the tag belts... So Heyman picks some jobber ad the sacrificial lamb to be slaughtered for inevitably costing Brock the tag belts in a defense where Brock doesn't care enough to show up.

I think in this world I was just envisioning Rock/Hogan II for the title as the SummerSlam main event.

Anyway... Fast forward to Brock winning the 2003 Royal Rumble to go on to FINALLY win his first world title the PROPER way in the main event of WrestleMania XIX.

So glad it didn't happen the way I envisioned. Reality was so much better. The rapid rise was so jarring but fit Brock's physical dominance in the ring so well. Despite all my various fan fic ideas for alternative ascents, I was all-in with the SummerSlam title win. WWF might've been dead, but there was renewed hope after all for WWE with Brock at the helm as world champion.

Next installment will be about Brock turning SmackDown! into the A Show for the only time in its entire history.

See ya next time on...

BROCK... IS... WRESTLING!!!

It became very clear very quickly through the summer of 2002. Brock was MY man in pro wrestling. Other wrestlers were helping to make the choice pretty easy too. Rock's Hollywood career was calling louder and louder, so he was gone more often than not. Austin finally took his ball and went home after months of bad to bland-at-best booking. The nostalgia of Hogan was cool, but he literally couldn't move in the ring... so the excitement was mostly limited to before the bell rang whenever he was around. Y2J had been jobbed out. Benoit was out injured. Eddie had been suspended/MIA so long that he was a total afterthought. Booker was still severely tainted by playing second fiddle throughout the botched InVasion. RVD had faired a bit better than Booker, but was still clearly victim to a glass ceiling. The nWo fizzled out like a wet fart. HHH had fizzled out just as hard after his MSG return pop. HBK returned with the worst haircut of all-time, and his in-ring return was still doubtful. Kurt and Taker were solid constants, but both seemed to be kinda slumming it too...

Some interesting things were shaking out on the undercard thanks to the draft/brand split and consequent growing pains, but nothing was as interesting or consistent as Brock and his push. So, honestly, WWE put blinders on in a way that made it easy to focus. And it clicked. It worked. Brock gave me someone/something to aspire to be in my REAL wrestling career.

I'd just logged my first full year of high school wrestling by the time Brock debuted. My freshman year was a bumpy-ish transition. There was a huge step-up in the challenge going from middle school and county wrestling to high school wrestling. There were even huge jumps between the freshman, JV, and varsity tiers. The rude awakening was jarring and hard to adjust to. So Brock provided that inspiration at a critical juncture.

Our team had to go to a camp together at the Naval Academy the summer after my freshman year to continue training in the off-season. It was miserable. Pretty sure the only way I got through it was cosplaying as Brock. He was big, pale, blonde, and good at both REAL and PRO wrestling. And while I wasn't big (or as big as I want to be... a lifelong problem) or pro wrestling, I was at least pale and blonde and real wrestling! So, as Meat Loaf would say... Three outta five ain't bad!

And then Brock becoming exclusive to SmackDown! as well as the birth of the SD!6 as the GOAT supporting cast were the perfect things to usher me through the start of my sophomore season. If I had a hard practice or a disappointing outing a wrestling meet, I would just watch Brock's latest feat of strength or him conquering some opponent... and my motivation would be re-inspired. If nothing else, it would at least be a joyous distraction.

Something else to remember about 2002 was how much WWE was hot-potatoing the world title belt around. It was sooo annoying to me in real time! Y2J starts the year as champ for 3 months... hands it to HHH for a month, who hands it to Hogan for a month, who hands it to Taker for a month... Taker has what feels like a LONG run when he holds the belt for TWO months before handing it to a returning Rock, who hands it to Brock a month later... so I was hoping/praying that my man Brock would restore some "legitimacy" to the world title by holding it for the remainder of the year (and hopefully forever) but I'd been so far conditioned to brace for otherwise.

When his first feud as champ is against former champ Taker, I got nervous. Brock chased off Austin without ever wrestling him, so that doesn't count. Then he beat Flair on a RAW, but Flair was an old fogey who spent just as much time in a non-wrestling role as a wrestling role. So that didn't really count. Brock had his impressive feats of strength against Mark Henry and Rikishi, but those guys were ultimately jobbers... so they didn't really count. He beat RVD for the 2002 KOTR crown, but RVD was clearly trending downward... so that wasn't much of an accolade. While his murdering of Hulkamania was huge symbolically, Hogan was on a J.O.B. World Tour... so even that didn't really mean much. And Rock was a temporary title holder if we ever saw one. So even beating Rock didn't count THAT much. So it was like Brock's buildup to his title win and his title reign were built on a shaky foundation. And given the title history so far in 2002, track record didn't indicate I should brace for a long reign.

So when his first title defense against Taker went to a no contest, I was happy but nervous. WWE isn't ready to end the Brock experiment just yet, but there's no way they're jobbing Taker out to him. Not this soon. I was convinced. My school buds were convinced. Then the HIAC rematch was booked. And we were ALL convinced. My anti-Brock buds were ecstatic. Eager to see Brock finally get served inside Taker's hellacious playground. And then the unthinkable happened. Brock retained. In one of the greatest HIAC matches of all-time. One that didn't require crazy dives or falls off the cage. It was fucking AWESOME. I wanted to rub that victory into my anti-Brock buds' faces so bad the following Monday. But something weird happened. They were suddenly fans of Brock. He'd earned their respect with his gutsy performance. And I guess WWE picked up on this overall wave... as they started to turn Brock face. NOOOO!!!

I was still 1000% on board the Brock train with him turning face, but this was the start of WWE ruining good organic things by forcing the face turn. It started off OK enough. I was totally accepting of the re-branded Big Show as Brock's next challenger, and Brock's initial face transition was gradual enough. He was just an unintimidated bad ass willing to go toe-to-toe with the big nasty bastard. Honestly, Brock's face run wouldn't get really meh until post-Surivor Series. But fucking Survivor Series... c'mon, man!

Between SummerSlam 2002 and Royal Rumble 2003, I didn't order any PPVs myself. But try-hard John G ordered every PPV. He was a rich kid who was mostly aloof on all things cool and fun, but definitely wanted to fit in with us "common kids" -- so he thought his in was being the PPV orderer and reporter. I don't know why it never dawned on him to invite us over if he was ordering the PPVs, but whatever. I remember the reports that Monday morning about how Brock wasn't champion anymore. How Big Show beat him. But the consolation prize was at least Brock hit the F5 on Big Show. But fuck that consolation prize. I was in disbelief. I thought John G was trying to get one over on gullible me. Fuck that news. Fuck that noise. No way this could be true.

But then, sure enough, it was. What the fuck!? Back to hot-potatoing the world title in 2002. And as much as I dug the re-branded Big Show... HIM as world champion!? WHAT!? HUH!? I understand why WWE had to split Heyman away from Brock if they wanted to go with Brock as a face, but Heyman screwing Brock (at Survivor Series especially) felt so contrived. Around this time, Brock had a shoot rib injury too, which I think kept him off the December PPV card where we got out last hot potato of the world title for the year with Big Show dropping the belt to Kurt Angle. While I was happy that this assured we'd be getting the Brock/Kurt dream match for the belt in the main event of WMXIX, I was in real time (and still in hindsight) so displeased with the random path there.

I'm convinced Brock is enough of a monster he could've worked, or at least been booked smartly, through the broken rib challenge. He should've kept the title belt around his waist from SummerSlam 2002 through WMXIX. No one will ever be able to convince me otherwise. If you want to turn Brock face, the Heyman sabotage means more on a WrestleMania stage. I dunno, man... Here's roughly what I envision whenever working through revisionist history ideas:

If I'm forced to turn Brock face:

SummerSlam 2002:
Brock beats Rock for the belt; becomes exclusive to SmackDown!; Taker chases Brock to the Blue Brand to challenge him for the title.

Unforgiven 2002:
Brock and Taker fight to a wild no contest; unfinished business leads to escalating tensions; Steph books a rematch inside HIAC to settle things.

No Mercy 2002:
Brock beats Taker to retain in perhaps the GOAT HIAC; Brock earns so much street cred, he starts winning over more fans. On the following SmackDown!, Taker comes out to cut a promo. He teases retirement, but ultimately he wants to call Brock out to shake his hand in sign of respect. Instead, re-branded Big Show comes out and chokeslams Taker off the stage. Cue Brock, who comes out to stand up on behalf of his greatest adversary to date. Sets up Brock/Show for Survivor Series.

Survivor Series 2002:
Show beats Brock via DQ when a returning-from-injury Taker attacks Show... paying back the favor by chokeslamming Show off something high, perhaps. Brock continues gradually evolving as a face, talking over Heyman and challenging Show to a rematch to settle things -- despite Heyman urging otherwise. Brock also takes a shot at Taker, saying if Taker is all about respect then what was he doing interfering? Heyman tries to convince Brock to chill and not poke the bear, but Brock ain't listening. It all leads to a triple threat at Armageddon 2002: Brock defending against Taker and Show.

Armageddon 2002:
Triple threat to help protect Brock's broken rib. Evidence from 2003 suggests this would be a much more entertaining match than you'd otherwise assume. Show steals the title by pinning Taker to win Brock's belt. Fuck me, I struggle to keep the belt on Brock in a face turn scenario. Anyway... Heyman turns here, spurred by Brock refusing to heed all his managerial advice leading into this show.

Royal Rumble 2003:
Brock beats Show 1-on-1 to win his title back. To cement his status as a face, he plants Show with an F5 and follows with a successful SSP to win. Minds blown! A bitter Show vents his frustration by interfering the Rumble later and screwing Taker, perhaps after some backstage interaction. Kurt is the Rumble runner-up, last eliminated by winner HBK.

No Way Out 2003:
We get Benoit/Angle RR2003 a month delayed as the final of a tournament to determine Brock's challenger at WrestleMania XIX. We get a Brock/Show rubber match, with Taker interfering as payback for Show screwing him outta the Rumble.

WrestleMania XIX:
Taker beats Show on the undercard to settle their months-long issue, and Brock/Kurt I is hopefully some greater classic than the real match. Brock/Kurt here is a face vs. face affair... or rather, a closer representation of "real wrestling" where it's just two athletes going at it, doing their best to prove who's the better man. A very experimental style for WWE. Maybe Kurt winning here with a flash small package prompts Brock to turn back heel, with a post-match attack that gives Kurt an excuse to go MIA for neck surgery.

If I'm able to keep Brock heel:

SummerSlam 2002:
Brock beats Rock for the belt; becomes exclusive to SmackDown!; Taker chases Brock to the Blue Brand to challenge him for the title.

Unforgiven 2002:
Brock and Taker fight to a wild no contest; unfinished business leads to escalating tensions; Steph books a rematch inside HIAC to settle things.

No Mercy 2002:
Brock beats Taker to retain in perhaps the GOAT HIAC; Brock earns so much street cred, he starts winning over more fans. On the following SmackDown!, Taker comes out to cut a promo. He teases retirement, but ultimately he wants to call Brock out to shake his hand in sign of respect. Brock comes out, Taker extends his hand, Brock just stares at it for a long moment like a confused vanilla gorilla... eventually Brock reaches out, takes Taker's hand, starts slowly shaking it, while fans cheer. BUT THEN... Brock yanks an unsuspecting Taker in, and F5s him. Big beaming smirk on Brock's troll face. Heyman jumps up and down, giddy. Heyman cuts a promo on how Brock respects NO MAN, blah blah blah. Hopefully restoring Brock's heel heat.

Insert Edge as the next plucky face title challenger. Edge seemed to have the character, personality, mic chops, charisma, momentum, etc. to be a perfect foil for Brock at this time -- at least in so far as keeping Brock heel. Instead of the the handicap match that Rebellion got, just run a straight-up 1-on-1 pitting Edge against Brock at Survivor Series.

Survivor Series 2002:
Edge puts up the gutsiest performance of his life, only to come up short against unstoppable Brock. Edge is MADE in the same way Austin was made by Bret.

Maybe in this timeline, Brock doesn't suffer a broken rib because he isn't working Big Show. But let's just assume Brock is injured, so we have to be careful with him heading into Armageddon. Rey needed time off in real life because of an injured knee. So maybe we slot Rey in for one last main event pay day, with Rey standing up for his tag team partner BFF Edge, to take on (i.e., get MURDERED by) Brock in a quick one at Armageddon.

Armageddon 2002:
Merciless Brock MURDERS Rey to retain. Brock's rib isn't impacted at all by tossing around Rey's 100-lb. frame. Rey takes some time off to get his knee scoped. Brock now seems like a bully, as his opponents' physical statures have been trending downward. Insert re-branded Big Show, potentially as a bad ass face, daring Brock to take on someone his own size... or bigger?

Royal Rumble 2003:
Brock retains against Big Show in their first encounter happening here, but with Brock as heel and Show as face and no Heyman sabotage. Let's mix the Rumble up a bit. Let's say HBK is WHC holder on RAW's side, defending against Y2J here... and HHH, with Evolution assistance, last eliminates Taker to win the 2003 Rumble.

No Way Out 2003:
We still get Benoit/Angle RR2003 a month delayed as the final of a tournament to determine Brock's challenger at WrestleMania XIX. Instead of Rock/Hogan II, we go with Brock/Hogan II for the title. A returning Rock is special guest referee given the magnitude of the match, and his ties to both competitors. Rock reveals his heel disposition by fucking Hogan to potentially set up Rock/Hogan II as an option for WMXIX.

WrestleMania XIX:
Shoot stories slip regarding Kurt's health status and bad neck. So, despite his Olympic gold medal, he's headed into the Brock match as the sympathetic underdog. I'm still thinking flash small package counter to a second or third F5 to win the title, with a Brock snap post-match to kill off Angle. Angle goes off for surgery, Brock beats Cena at Backlash to reclaim the vacant title, and Angle eventually returns as the undefeated champion (and only man to pin Brock so far) with a rightful claim to a title shot.

Anyway... IT IS WHAT IT IS.

Next time on BROCK... IS... WRESTLING we'll dive into 2003, what was awesome about it, what could've been better, etc. LATER!

BROCK... IS... WRESTLING!
Part 3? Or 4? WHO CARES!?!?

The face turn and winding road to WrestleMania XIX was a bit of a weird one, even if I was still head-over-heels in love with all things Brock and SmackDown! at the time.

Even if he worked infinitely better as a heel, I was relatively OK with Brock's face turn... because whats not to root for? And even in real time, the mark in me knew all undefeated streaks had to end at some point... so I was OK with Brock losing, and even losing the title, so long as it was headed somewhere smart. And while it became clear pretty quickly that they were planning on Brock/Kurt at WMXIX... sadly, they weren't taking a smart path there IMO. Brock had a shoot injured rib, and so --I guess to protect their investment in him-- they kept him generally out of action and off the Armageddon 2002 card. Instead, he played cornerman to Kurt (I think?) to help hot potato the belt to a de facto face Kurt... just so Kurt could turn heel on Brock. It was dumb and botched.

The only real highlight around this time period was my parents taking me to a SmackDown!-branded house show in DC (never mind, checking results to fact check myself... I think we must've ventured up to Baltimore instead). ANYWAY/// We ended up in seats right next to the entrance aisle, and the show wasn't sold-out... so it was super easy to crowd the guard rail and get the attention of entering/exiting wrestlers. I forget the specific matches, but here's what I recall about seeing certain wrestlers so up close in person:
- Kurt, Benoit, Kidman, Noble, Tajiri, and Rey were sooo tiny... in that order of diminishing statures. I could've sworn I saw Eddie too, and recall thinking he was so tiny too... but I don't see his name in the results. So... Mandela Effect?
- Edge, A-Train, and Big Show were all surprising as far as how tall they were in person... in that order of ascending height surprise. Big Show was HUUUGE!
- Brock, Rikishi, Cena, Matt Hardy, and the yet-to-debut Team Angle were all surprisingly stout... which I say is surprisingly because I was under the impression TV adds a few pounds. But boy these boys were THICK. Brock, Cena, and Shelton just seemed to be made out of muscle on top of muscle. Matt and Charlie just seemed like heartier guys that you'd expect from "normal" looking dude. And I swear Rikishi looked as big around as he was up and down.
- I touched Torrie Wilson's (upper) boob! I was reaching for a high five or to pat Tajiri on the shoulder, kinda whiffed, and grazed Torrie. Greatest moment of my life... just wish my parents hadn't been there. -_- /

Where was I?

Oh yeah, WWE is seemingly going a little overboard protecting Brock's broken rib. Brock was such a monster back then, I doubt he needed the protection. I bet he could've still F5'd Big Show even with all his ribs broken. But whatever. Brock was gradually turning into more of a cliche face. And Kurt was turning into the ol' heel Kurt after a brief face turn tease. The introduction of Team Angle should've been more of a thing, IMO... or at least they should've played up Shelton's connection to Brock way more than they did. I understand why they needed Team Angle and the Eric Angle gag (Kurt's neck was hanging on by a thread), but overall... this whole feud would've played better as a straight up sportsman rivalry (similar to Rock/Brock at SummerSlam or Bret/Shawn in '96), or with roles reversed.

It was weird at the time. On paper, Kurt should've been the guy to upset. His amateur accolades trumped Brock's. His pro wrestling accolades technically edged out Brock's at that point. He was reigning world champ with a posse and a heel manager. And yet, because of his neck's legit status and his smaller stature... he still seemed like the sympathetic underdog. I'll forever and always maintain that Brock as this cocksure monster heel with Heyman barking in his corner, talking trash about how Brock's gonna mop the map with a broken down Olympic Chump, would've made for a smarter/better story. Then Brock can rag-doll Kurt around the ring at 'Mania, and Kurt can make his super (Olympic) hero comebacks.

Instead, we got what we got. Then, in the wake of 'Mania, we get this weird bromance between Brock and Kurt that didn't work nearly as well as the comedy between Kurt and Austin from two years before. In the midst of it all, we get the first blow-off to the first chapter of the epic Lesnar/Cena feud... with Lesnar beating Cena in Cena's hometown. It was a weird setup, and just echoes my thought on how Brock should've been kept heel through all of this. BUT ANYWAY...

Possibly the only upside to Brock as face was him continuing and concluding his feud with Big Show. They had a stretcher match that was super entertaining, and way better than it had any right to be. In addition, they continued to touch on SmackDown!, with Big Show seeming increasingly motivated in each outing. And then the Superplex Heard 'Round the World happened... and BLEW. MY. FUCKING. MIND. Even if it wasn't a new or original gimmick, it was the first time I recall seeing anything like it. And, man, what a fucking impression. Still probably one of my Top 10 all-time favorite moments in pro wrestling.

The Summer of 2003 features a bunch of matches that don't look great on paper but ended up being highly entertaining. Kurt returns and wins back the belt (I think?) in a triple threat with Brock and Big Show at Vengeance 2003, where I think Brock hit a Liger Bomb on Show after running across the ring with Show on his shoulders. Some insane shit. Then, later, on SmackDown! Brock has an entertaining triple threat/handicap match deal also involving Show and Taker. I think buried in all of this, Brock turns heel again in a match that is more of a great moment than match... the steel cage match against Vince with Kurt as ref. It's all a setup, and Brock ends up aligned with Vince as Vince's latest pet project henchman. It was during this run that Brock really gets to shine and show his character and charisma as a sadistic heel. Best highlight include murdering Brian Kendrick, Paul London, and especially the stuff with Zach Gowan.

Brock/Kurt II at SummerSlam was weird to me. WMXIX didn't live up to the hype I'd built up in my own head, and then it had the SSP scare. So I didn't know what to expect heading into SummerSlam, but I was definitely more full of trepidation than anticipation and excitement. To their credit, I think Brock & Kurt did better working within the constraints of what they could do and what made sense. All in all, I think (at least in hindsight) I rank the SummerSlam rematch over WrestleMania. But both pale in comparison to the Iron Man. That Iron Man... Top 10 Brock match, if not Top 5 or possibly even Top 3. I'd have to revisit my #BROCKTOBER lists to know for sure.

After concluding his feud with Kurt, Brock revisit his feud with Taker for a meh-ish Biker Chain Match. Then pivots to focus on Benoit and Cena. I'm going to pretend the alliance with Matt Morgan and Nathan Jones never happened. Because it never should have. BUT, in the course of their classic Survivor Series collision, Benoit becomes a made man by making Brock tap. The "you tapped out!" chants became a fun thing, and Brock sold them perfectly as getting under his skin in the worst way. It all eventually leads up to Benoit getting his "one and only" title shot... which results in another Top 10 Brock match, if not Top 5 or possibly even Top 3.

Meanwhile, Cena was being booked and positioned in such a way that I was ready for him to ascend and would've totally bought him as a title challenger in parallel with Benoit. My ideal dream was seeing WMXX become an homage to WMX with Benoit playing Bret, Cena playing Lex, and Brock playing Yoko. Heyman had made a big deal out of I think neither Benoit nor Cena getting shots against Brock again or something, and so there only real shot seemed like the Rumble. Would've loved to see Heyman trying to destroy both Benoit and Cena by pitting them against each other in a match where winner is #30 and loser is #1. Because Lesnar hates (read: fears) Benoit slightly more, he interferes and attacks Cena to get Benoit DQ'd and make him #1. Then, at the Rumble, the unthinkable happens and Benoit lasts all the way to the end... only for him and Cena to eliminate each other at the same time (maybe a suplex off the apron spot?)

Cena vs. Benoit is set for No Way Out to see who gets the shot, but it somehow ends inconclusively. Maybe a no contest thanks to more Brockference, or maybe a double pinfall? Who knows. Long story short, we get Lesnar vs. Cena and Lesnar vs. Benoit as two WWE title matches at WMXX. Lesnar retains over Cena, but loses to Benoit (via submission). Blah blah blah... at MINIMUM, I would've settled just for the natural organic conclusion to the Lesnar/Benoit story arc.

Instead, we get Lesnar/Holly --> Lesnar/Eddie --> Lesnar/Goldberg. MEH
I'm probably the only person on the planet who wasn't offended by Lesnar/Holly. It was unfinished business stemming from a personal issue, Holly always struck me as a legit bad ass, and I'm a fan of Holly anyway... so it worked for me on all fronts. Maybe it should've been non-title though? I don't know. Who cares. By the end of the Rumble PPV, my hopes were through the roof. I was excited to see how things would unfold on the road to WrestleMania with Benoit chasing Brock again. But then, Benoit pops up on RAW and everything goes sideways.

Knowing we weren't getting Benoit/Lesnar at WMXX, I started checking out hardcore. I heard Lesnar/Eddie was a good match and even better moment, but I had zero interest in real time in Lesnar/Goldberg as an alternative to Lesnar/Benoit and I was so bitter that I didn't even like the idea of Eddie as champ (regardless of who he beat for the title). I was rapidly falling out on everything, even if I still loved Brock. I blamed none of this bullshit on him, and honestly didn't blame him for wanting to peace out of WWE when that news broke.

The debacle that was Lesnar/Goldberg at WMXX was awesome. I loved it. It felt like exactly what WWE deserved for robbing me/us of the natural organic conclusion to Lesnar/Benoit. Sure, everyone hated HHH and seeing Benoit make HHH tap was great for the smarks... but you're telling me that Benoit winning the lesser belt after abruptly jumping to RAW was better than smark-favorite Benoit winning the REAL top belt off of a heartless departing Brock via submission in the main event? If yes, GTFO.

Brock left in the wake of 'Mania, and so did I pretty much. I still had a year of high school to go, so real life wasn't really an excuse yet for "being in the way" of actively following... I was just that pissed. I was done. I was out. I was happy Brock was chasing his dreams, excited to hear he was doing so relatively well in his NFL tryouts, and honestly hoped to see him success there and wreck shit. Then I think a motorcycle accident derailed that endeavor, but then he popped up in Japan's pro wrestling scene.

Despite the new sword penis tattoo and weird maroon trunks, I still loved anything and everything Brock. I particularly loved him coming in, winning the title more or less right away, and then essentially holding it hostage. That's my boy! Preview of things to come. His run in Japan was decent IMO, all things considered. Then he dropped the belt to Kurt in a match that I think is the only time a WrestleMania main event has ever taken place again NOT in WWE. Right? That's a fact? Well, never mind... I guess Hogan/Savage and Hogan/Warrior happened in WCW. But OK, so first time since 1998 (or whenever the last time Savage wrestled Hogan was). Historic!

After dropping the Japanese Heavyweight Championship to Kurt, it was time for a new venture... MMA. Long story short, I was all in on Brock's MMA/UFC quest. Him losing his debut was more fluke-ish than anything from what I can recall, and I was convinced a new phenom was upon us in the Octagon. I totally viewed Brock's UFC run through real-time rose-tinted glasses. Dude was wrecking jabronis en route to capturing the world heavyweight title. Then defended it was honor until diverticulitis forced him to drop the belt. He cut some of the best promos of his life during this run. And had that staredown moment with Taker, which planted the seed. All in all, it set him up perfectly for his return... to where it all began.

But that's for NEXT TIME on
BROCK... IS... WRESTLING!

The fall of The Undertaker since the last  time we did this makes total sense to me. A few years ago he would have been in my top five, but not knowing when to go really leaves a bad taste in your mouth. While I recommended the Edge documentary on the WWE Network, I do not recommend The Undertaker series they're currently watching. It's incredibly depressing watching someone you revered and were in awe of be a whiny old bitch not knowing when to hang it up. If I'd watched it before I sent my list in, he'd have dropped even further.

Of course all of that is unfair, as he has given us one of the greatest special attraction runs in the history of the business. He was already the American Badass when I started watching, so he never had that mistique for me that he did for people who grew up with him as the deadman. But when he went back to the Deadman, I thought it would be corny, but it worked. I'll never forget seeing his entrance live and the goosebumps that gave me. We didn't get WWE shows for the longest time, so I just assumed unless I went to London or Manchester some time I'd never see wrestling live - so when Smackdown finally came when I was a teenager it was the greatest thing I'd ever seen - and The Undertaker's entrance was a real highlight.

That run from the Lesnar HIAC to the Triple H HIAC is just so quality. Amazing matches with a huge variety of opponents and it always felt special.

I didn't vote for Savage as I just haven't seen enough to put him in my list without feeling like a fraud - but everything I have seen I love.

3. John Cena
6. AJ Styles
10. Asuka
11. The Undertaker
13. Brock Lesnar
14. Kota Ibushi
15. Kevin Owens
16. Lita
17. Triple H
18. AJ Lee
19. Matt Hardy
21. Goldust
22. Edge
23. William Regal
24. Sami Zayn
25. Christian
26. Shinsuke Nakamura
27. Bayley
28. Hiroshi Tanahashi
30. Charlotte Flair
31. Sasha Banks
33. JBL
34. Nigel McGuinness
35. Kazuchika Okada
36. Finlay
37. Randy Orton
38. Arn Anderson
39. Rey Mysterio
40. Sheamus
41. Zack Sabre Jr.
42. Kofi Kingston
43. Nikki Bella
44. PAC
45. Raven
46. Ronda Rousey
47. Jamie Noble
48. Trish Stratus
49. Jeff Jarrett
50. Jerry Lawler

Randy Savage- Was in the 90s on my big list. 

Truth is I'm a lot closer to jTjohncenaGOAT than our old friend MachoMark. Similar to Jeff, I only liked Mach as a heel. Not that it should come as any surprise given my well-documented heel-loving ways as a youngster. But, yeah, my favorite periods of Macho Man's career came in the early days of my fandom when he was IC Champ, the Macho King run, and anytime he feuded with Hogan or Warrior- all heel runs.

I also greatly underestimated Savage's impact and star power all the way up until I joined PW in late 2012.....or did I?

There's been some chatter throughout this countdown about "the guy who works with the top guy." Well, Macho Man is maybe the ultimate guy who works with the top guy. I get the feeling I'll always remember him as Hogan's (and Warrior's) bitch more than anything else. He was a placeholder champ who would get the belt when Hogan was off doing other things. Savage would inevitably drop the belt to Hogan once the Real Star returned. This formula existed in both WWF & WCW.

Plus there was never anybody in my peer group growing up who really went to bat for Savage. I knew huge Hogan & Warrior fans. Ditto for Bret. I was the Flair Guy. I even knew a brave Michaels fanboy. But there was never a single person in my various wrestling fan cliques over the years constantly pimping the Macho Man as a GOAT candidate.

So despite the fact that he was one of the only wrestlers to win the WWF Championship when I was growing up, and he won the belt twice(!), even holding it for a year one time(!!), I tended to remember/focus on his down periods. Like the Macho King run where he honestly did nothing of note until the Warrior feud. Or his run as a full time announcer/part time wrestler in 93-94. For whatever reason, those nothing periods left more of an impression than all his main event runs.

He also became a parody of himself. By the time he showed up in WCW, even I, Mr. Hardcore Wrestling Fan, viewed him more as the goofy Slim Jim spokesperson than a multiple time world champion, and the 3rd biggest star of Golden Age WWF.

He was an anti-draw for me in WCW. For starters, he was "old," having been reduced to commentary for two years before jumping to WCW and wrestling a full time schedule again. Then he was just recycling his greatest hits opposite Hogan & Flair. Boring! I had already tapped out on WCW by the time the DDP feud came around.

And now for the positives...

He's a Top 3 IC Champ. He did hold the WWF Championship for a year. Then he held it again, becoming a still-rare 2 time champion. 

Hogan was obviously Mr. Wrestlemania to normals. But I could see early smarks going to bat for Savage as the real Mr. Wrestlemania. He really did have a great run during the early days of Wrestlemania- The classic with Steamboat at III. Winning the biggest tournament ever at IV. Culmination of the memorable Mega Powers Explode storyline at V. The Warrior classic at VII. The Flair classic at VIII. Whoa. That's pretty much a Michaels or Taker level run.

He got over as both a heel and face....multiple times. I took his coke fueled promos for granted growing up because, like, everybody cut awesome cocaine fueled promos back then. But I get a kick out of them nowadays. Gotta thank my brother for turning me onto Macho Man promos a few years back. He'd just sit there for like an hour laughing his ass off while watching all these zany Macho Man interviews.

Savage was intense. You got the impression he really was unhinged. GOAT flying elbow. Not much of a movez guy in general, but what he did do looked great. Good bumper. Great seller (check out the Bret SNME match for an all time great sell job from Savage). Great feud man- Lawler, Steamboat, Hogan, Warrior, Honky, Warrior, Jake, Flair, DDP, etc. Memorable on the mic. Influential. Fun Fact: Early Cactus Jack was little more than a Savage clone, particularly on the mic. Plus a lot of wrestlers my age were huge fans of Savage (and his match with Steamboat) growing up. Formed an all time great duo with Elizabeth. 

Final Thoughts- I'm more of a Savage respecter than a Savage fanboy. Definitely one of the all time greats though. Gave wrestling fans a ton of memorable moments over the years. Oooooh Yeah! 

Owen Hart: Look, this seems a little high, but good.

Brock Lesnar: I find his work incredibly lazy, but like no one has better captured being a "wrestler" than him this decade. He looks like one, he acts like one, he has zero interest being liked, and he can obviously legit maul most (all?) of the wrestlers he's ever shared a ring with, and this matters! When the character is bad motherfucker, you better really be a bad motherfucker, or at least be good at acting like a bad motherfucker, and he's obviously succeeding. The "big match feel" wrestler of his generation.

Kurt Angle: Have gone back and forth on Angle so much over the years. Is maybe the greatest prodigy of professional wrestling thinking about his first couple years, to be that good at both wrestling and a character is pretty fucking insane. At some point became a maximalist to a fault, which I didn't necessarily mind, at first, but when I caught up on a lot of his stuff a couple years back he's kind of the ground zero of spamming moves, which is the WORST. But sometimes it isn't? Like I said, I go back and forth on Angle. He's great, obviously, probably could have been even better with a little more psychology, a better run WWE that wouldn't have let him go when they did, and also not being kinda fucking insane. 

John Cena: Garbage. You're all wrong. Can't do the actual physical acts of wrestling, makes up with it the most hamfisted garbage psychology, and almost single-handedly killed the wrestling business by being forced down the throats of an audience that rejected him for over a decade. Boooooooo.

Undertaker: This may sound weird, but I've never really given a shit about Undertaker one way or the other. He's obviously a legend, but his early years at his most sports entertainment I thought it was corny and lame, and then he had a pretty good run 96-98 and I was like, alright, Undertaker is pretty cool, I guess. Then he sucked from 1999 until I stopped watching wrestling. He's obviously had some classic matches, but does any wrestler with is reputation have a lower batting average? I don't know, it's impossible to hate Taker, but I never really liked him either. 

Randy Savage: Totally rules, obviously. About as close to as a total package as there was in his day, oddly just a little something missing that ever prevented him from being THE MAN, but he's the GOAT Second Banana with only The Rock on his trail. 

4. Undertaker (#12)- I was tied for the high vote on Taker. By some metrics he could have been even higher. I was a Taker fan for like 17.5 of the 19 years I followed his career. Very impressive given my fickle ways. Only Flair is even in Taker's ballpark when it comes to being a longterm Baker Guy. Even more than Flair, Taker was the one constant in professional wrestling. From the Golden Age to the New Generation to the Attitude Era and beyond, Taker was always there. He wrestled Jimmy Snuka at his first 'Mania and AJ Styles at his most recent. The entire history of modern wrestling pretty much runs through Taker. There is so much to cover. I'll try knocking it out in one night, stream of consciousness style, with multiple storytimes sprinkled in. It's go time....

I remember seeing Mean Mark literally once in real time. He won a match with the Heart Punch. I misheard it as the Hard Punch. The Hard Punch then became an ironic 'so bad it's good' finisher in my wrestling figure leagues. I did not know Undertaker had once been Mean Mark until late 95-96.

But I was all in on Taker from day one. It's not an exaggeration to say I was in awe of The Deadman when he debuted at Survivor Series 1990. I had never seen anything quite like him before. He instantly supplanted longtime top guy Mr. Perfect to become my new favorite wrestler- A position Taker would hold (save a week or two here and there) until Flair surpassed him over a year later at Royal Rumble 92.

Taker nailed playing the 'monster' character. Great look. Great mannerisms. Was smart enough to move slow. He wrestled exactly like an unbeatable zombie should wrestle. The Tombstone was an ultimate death blow from the very beginning. I loved his brand of no selling. As silly as this may seem in 2020, I found Taker totally believable. No matter how ridiculous some of his stuff may seem in hindsight, I bought into it all in real time. The more over the top, the better. And I mean that in a totally unironic way. I believed in Taker as much as I would later believe in Taz. Also, like Taz, I thought Taker was wrestling's ultimate badass for several years. 

He won the WWF Championship(!) by pinning Hulk Hogan(!!) to wrap up a stellar rookie campaign. In that moment he already became a legend in my book. The next 2-3 decades would just make that book super thick. Of course stupid WWF invented a PPV out of thin air just to give Hogan his belt back. But still! It doesn't take away what Taker did at Survivor Series 91.

I was into his feuds with Hogan & Warrior. Loved his alliances with Brother Love(!) and Jake. I was, however, less keen on Paul Bearer.

Also loved his face turn on Jake. GOAT face turn, in fact. And I have the PM to prove it! Taker's badass face turn took place deep in my heel fan days. But I stuck with Taker and turned on Jake the Jerk after his dastardly deed. Taker would be my favorite good guy in all of wrestling for much of the next few years.

Loved his monster mashes with Kamala, Underfaker, Diesel, Kane, and even early Giant Gonzalez. Much of that stuff exemplifies the classic 'larger than life' brand of rasslin' WWF was once famous for. 

The Underfaker stuff in particular was huge in my neck of the woods. As much as I was into the Bret/Owen feud, Taker/Faker was even a bigger draw for me. It's no wonder Summerslam 94 was one of my most frequently rented tapes. I remember lots of talk about Undertaker (and Mr. Backlund to be fair) all summer, drifting into soccer practice, and even the first few days of the new school year. Undertaker sightings were over like rover. Taker/Faker was equally big. And much of this chatter came from non-friends who I didn't even know were wrestling fans. Undertaker was sooooo over with the casuals....

Dating all the way back to the build to Survivor Series 93. Again, I remember my friends marking out huge when Taker revealed the American flag lining on his trenchcoat. You guys have no idea how big that one moment was here in B-More. Taker was the darling of this very short-lived wrestling fan clique (Matt the IRS Fan was the only one I remained friends with for a few more years).

BUT! This was the first (of only two) times I turned on Taker. I was forced to choose between him and "The Crusher of Hulkamania" Yokozuna. I chose Yoko. And I turned on Taker for good when he "sat up from the Banzai Drop." Which never actually happened! But was a Mandela Effect for like 20 years. Anyway, I came back around (and then some!) on Taker when he ascended to heaven at Royal Rumble 94. What a legend!

Which reminds me.....my friend Vogel pulled the GOAT wrestling trolljob around Royal Rumble 92 when he told me Taker had renounced his evil ways and become reborn as a white-clad warrior named Heaven Above. I believed this! That damn Vogel.....

I was super into Taker's feud with that jerk Diesel. Classic good guy vs. bad guy stuff. Taker was one of the few wrestlers (maybe half a dozen) who was liked by all 8 or 9 members of my 95-96 wrestling fan clique. After loving all that "wrestlecrap" he was involved in through the years, I was weirdly indifferent to the Mankind feud. It was....alright. But definitely no Taker/Faker! 

Taker was honestly more of a 2nd tier fave in 95-96. Still liked him obviously. But others had surpassed him. 97-98 saw Taker slide back into my Fave 5 as he became the conscience of WWF. Loved seeing him finally win the WWF Championship for the 2nd time from stupid Sid. Was into his reign. Was hugely into the Austin match at Summerslam 98. Loved his IYH April 97 match with Mankind where Mankind took a header through a table. Yet their KOTR 98 classic topped even that to become the most jaw dropping match I had ever seen, and one that would still probably crack my all time Top 10. 

And I haven't even mentioned the Kane feud yet! What a feud that was! Never forget Kane was little more than an Undertaker spinoff character. Yet even this spinoff character would go onto have a 20 year Hall of Fame career. The early Taker/Kane feud was the greatest of all Taker's great Monster Mashes. The less said about their later battles, the better.

I was genuinely bummed out when Taker turned heel in late 98 because I worried that it would "kill his legacy." I lost sleep over this! But it worked out alright in the end. Evil Undertaker was just as cool (if not cooler) than ultimate good guy Taker. The Ministry was honestly kind of crap, but I liked it anyway. Because Taker could do no wrong in my eyes. He upgraded his already great theme game during the Ministry stretch. Also cut that all timer of a promo along with Big Show. I will hear no arguments. That promo ruled.

Good grief! I almost forgot to cover the Michaels Hell In A Cell match, which is only a Top 5 match of all time. It was like a horror movie come to life. Only you were rooting for the monster. Then BAM!  An even bigger monster comes in outta nowhere to make things even more interesting. This lead to the awesome first Undertaker/Kane clash at Wrestlemania 14, which was a huge draw for me. Waaaaay bigger than Austin/Michaels w/ Tyson.

Back to '99, Taker got hurt and was out about 8 months. But it was all worth it when he made an epic return at Judgment Day 2000. I must have watched Taker's return a good 10 times during the few days I borrowed that tape from my friend Lauren. I popped so hard for Taker's return....watching it in my basement....all alone. Best return this side of HHH in 2002? 

But he...kind of sucked now. OK, I liked the Angle Survivor Series match and HIAC the next month. But aside from that, meh. Residual good will kept me on Team Taker for a while. But by some point in 2001 the unthinkable happened. I turned on Taker! GASP! He was "old" and "couldn't go anymore." I'm not gonna say he was on my least favorites list. But it was getting pretty painful to watch him. I kind of expected him to hang it up soon.

lol WRONG! Taker turned heel in late 2001 and soon regained his mojo. First came a good and underrated match with RVD. Then there was the cool Maven stuff at the Rumble, which ended up being Maven's lone claim to fame. Then came the awesome Flair feud and 'Mania match. 

Taker, the ultimate gimmick wrestler, showed his versatility by being the among the first WWF wrestlers to incorporate MMA stuff into his matches. This goes way back to his oddball match with Shamrock at Backlash 99. But it really ramped up during his good matches with Angle in 02-03. I distinctly remember Taker being the first wrestler I ever saw use the Triangle (Choke) because I distinctly remember thinking "wtf is a Triangle and how the hell does it work?" 

Where was I? Oh yeah. 02-03. BikerTaker was pretty dumb. I wanted Deadman Taker back basically the entire time. But he was still back to being a Top 10ish fave in 02-03 because he's The Under f'n Taker. He had a good little title reign in 02 where he BEAT HOGAN AGAIN! YEAH! Then he had that awesome Ladder Match with Jeff Hardy. His title reign was treated as a Big Deal with wrestlers on both Raw & Smackdown jockeying just to get a title shot. It was a very old school NWA vibe. Which is just another reason why I hated them going to two World Championship a few months later. 

*Tired. Going to post a new entry real quick. Then it's nighty night. I may come back to finish my Taker writeup at a later date. 

#9 Ric Flair
13 Votes-465 Points
One #1 Vote
Last Time: #13

Flair all the way down at #10 huh? Has to be because he stuck around way too long. I was never a Flair guy , and never really enjoyed his promos like so many others did. Great wrestler and exceptional at getting the best out of anyone but overall I just never connected with him.

His best run IMO was in the early WWF including his pairing with Heenan and Perfect and the 92 Rumble. That's the most watched Flair stuff for me.

Really interested to see what wrestlers make it above Savage, Flair, Styles and Cena. Now we have gotten to the fun part.

CM Punk is undeserving of being ahead of a lot of these guys. Hogan, Cena, Styles, Savage, Flair especially.

Jun 19, 2020 15:12:42 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

Jun 19, 2020 15:12:00 GMT KING KID said:

CM Punk is undeserving of being ahead of a lot of these guys. Hogan, Cena, Styles, Savage, Flair especially.

Yeah.

Especially Cena.

No one deserves to be ahead of him. No one.

Jun 19, 2020 15:08:56 GMT jTjohncenaGOAT said:

Jun 19, 2020 14:24:44 GMT KING KID said:

Really interested to see what wrestlers make it above Savage, Flair, Styles and Cena. Now we have gotten to the fun part.

Punk, Austin, Eddie, Michaels, Foley, Rock, Bryan, Hart have all not been mentioned yet as far as I can tell. That’s 8 of the last 9 and makes total sense to me. #9 though.. Kevin Nash? I don’t remember seeing him on the list so far.

No way you dudes put Kevin Nash in the top 9 of all time, right?

Right?

Jericho

Never liked how he looks with Winged Eagle.

jTjohncenaGOAT Kevin Nash finished around #150 with something like 4 votes for 45 points.

John Cena is a dummyhead.

Was never a big fan of Naitch's matches minus a few here and there, but loved him as a character.

Ric was an embarrassing, inexcusable, unforgivable omission from my list.

But even the Nature Boy ain't Brock Lesnar. So...

I'll be back probably sometime this weekend to continue/finish(?) BRRROCK... IS... WRESTLING!!!

Jun 16, 2020 1:55:09 GMT RT said:

I was the high vote for Savage. He was my favourite wrestler when I was a kid and first getting into wrestling.

NOBODY DOES IT BETTER.

This is why we are friends.  Well that and we both are awesome. 

I had Randy Savage as my #8.  Fuck Hogan.  Macho Man was my guy.  What didn't he do well?  The guy captivated me from the minute go.  Charisma out the hoop.  I'll expand this and my other picks later when I'm not up to my bongos in orders.

Man, we're getting to the "cream of the crop" as a great man once said.

3. Ric Flair

I was kind of hard on Flair the last time we did this countdown. By 2014/15 age had finally caught up with him and he was almost cringe-worthy to watch at times, he barely scraped into my top 10. As the saying goes though, "you don't know what you got till it's gone", and Flair nearly was in 2017. He seems to have finally toned down his wild ways at least a little bit and binge watching all those promos after his 30 for 30 aired reaffirmed my affinity for the "Naitch." He is everything you want in a wrestler with charisma to burn, a superbly entertaining in-ring style and an iconic look that he made his own and it didn't feel like dreaded cosplay. He could do it all, be the nasty heel who will win at all costs, the plucky babyface that could duke it out with the likes of Vader and Terry Funk or be the smart, scientific heel in his matches with the likes of Ricky Steamboat. He was equally versatile with his promos usually getting all facets of his personality in one. Very few could switch gears on the fly like he could going from serious and to the point, to zany and over the top. Being a frequent part of my top 10 favorites list from 1989-2008, it feels good to put him back where he properly belongs.

Nearly 4 hours of brilliance, the aforementioned video I watched to get me back in Ric Flair mode, there will be no other. If this doesn't make the most jaded of observers a fan then you don't have a pulse:



15. Randy Savage

It shows great stock in Randy's work that he was the first heel I rooted for when he turned on Hogan. He was in the right after all with Hogan trying to get all close with Elizabeth and being the gallant hero. Savage was actually kind of scary when I first saw him in 1985 with his unique promos and reckless style in the ring. He was willing to use chairs, guardrails or anything else around ringside to do damage. His ringbell attack on Ricky Steamboat will never leave my memory, Steamboat and Vince McMahon sold it as near death so well. Savage forming the Megapowers was mind blowing at the time. I thought nothing was going to stop Hogan and Savage, the superhero and the craziest man in the Federation. Eventually though the tried and true Hogan formula came to pass and his best buddy turned on him. Savage wasn't quite the same after the Wrestlemania V loss and I didn't really like his run as the king. He got it back together with his feud with the Ultimate Warrior culminating in one of the best storyline moments in WWE history. His feud with Jake speaks for itself with another all time moment in the cobra bite, it just left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth since it didn't have a proper blow-off. He had great chemistry with Ric Flair as both the WWF and WCW feuds were hits both for storyline purposes and in the ring. His 1995 is one of the most underrated years in wrestling. Savage was supposed to be washed up but he showed that he seemed even more intense and was still putting on great matches. He was also still exceptional at selling injuries since both his knee and arm were wrecked for a majority of the year. He carried the momentum into an all time WCW feud with DDP that was booked so well. It was quite the shock to see Page put the Diamond Cutter on Savage and win clean first time out at Spring Stampede. He did well to change his look near the end but by that time WCW was in so much of a mess it was a lost cause. Savage is just another guy you can group with the likes of Terry Funk and Ric Flair as guys that define all the best points of the business.

27. Undertaker

He has quickly become the Andre The Giant of his day which would put him as a near top 10 lock on a GOAT list for me. Like some here though I've mostly held his career with great respect and appreciation rather than all out fandom. His career was based on so much chance it's ridiculous. An undead graveyard worker getting massively over? Highly unlikely. Stumbling upon an unintentional winning streak and make it into one of the few sacred things left in the business? Not a chance. Everything fell into place so perfectly, it really was lightning in a bottle. At first his character was perfect to hide some misgivings as still a rather green performer. He naturally evolved though into a better worker and his character changed along with it by having longer matches and better promos. As is the theme of this group just one of the defining characters in the business, I couldn't see him doing anything else.

I did have Flair on my list but really low. I was never a big Flair fan, I mean I appreciate his work in ring and his mic skills, but he just never clicked with me.

I was lucky enough to be at his 'retirement' match with HBK at Mania 24 and that was plenty emotional alright, but by that point he'd stayed around for too long. He is undoubtedly one of the best to ever step in a ring, but he just never did it for me.