It sounds to me that Cornette is conflating the reasons these guys were underutilized with fans complaining and thinking they know better than Vince.

These guys weren't underutilized because Vince is out of touch, they were underutilized because the WWE roster is overflowing with talent.

It isn't that Vince is out of touch, it's that the WWE signed everyone with a pulse to entry level contracts so they wouldn't sign elsewhere, then didn't make the most of the fact that they have 3 weekly TV shows and their own streaming service. These guys got over with the fans in their own ways, then there just wasn't room for all of them, so they left when they could.

Nov 3, 2020 17:42:41 GMT Emperor said:

Nov 3, 2020 16:26:54 GMT X-zero said:

In AEW, he is the top guy but besides Jericho he has beat nobody. His other three big opponents (Archer, Cage, and Lee)were built up as threats coming into the company beat up AEW jobbers like Stunt and unsigned indy jobbers only to lose to Moxley and do nothing. Now you Eddie Kingston who is getting his third title match in the company and has he even beat anyone who is actually on the roster yet.

Moxley has beat nobody besides Jericho?

AEW is a brand new promotion, it's not full of Chris Jerichos who have been established stars for decades so that's not a fair comment at all. It isn't even true. He also beat MJF and Darby Allin, are they nobodies too? All of Moxley's opponents have been pretty credible in the context of AEW.

MJF did beat Cody and a few other real AEW talent so he probably counts I will give you that. Allin while fans do like him and want him to be the next big thing. He is still a nobody as of now. He hasn't beat anyone, it feels like every time he appears he has been off of tv for a while for some reason and has already failed against every single champion so far. They are a new promotion but they are trying to build too many people at the same time. You need to pick a few and make them stars first. Then you can make other stars off them.

Nov 3, 2020 17:58:26 GMT X-zero said:

MJF did beat Cody and a few other real AEW talent so he probably counts I will give you that. Allin while fans do like him and want him to be the next big thing. He is still a nobody as of now. He hasn't beat anyone, it feels like every time he appears he has been off of tv for a while for some reason and has already failed against every single champion so far. They are a new promotion but they are trying to build too many people at the same time. You need to pick a few and make them stars first. Then you can make other stars off them.

Your notion of "real talent" and "nobodies" doesn't make any sense to me. If you have a new company and new roster then by your logic everybody is going to start out as a nobody because noone has won a match. Do we just class Moxley, Jericho and Cody as "real talent" and everybody else is a "nobody"? Is that what you're saying?

The way I see it, Moxley and Cody are at the top of the food chain, with Moxley above Cody in the pecking order.

The next level down is Chris Jericho, Kenny Omega, Hangman Page, Orange Cassidy, MJF, Darby Allin, PAC, Brodie Lee. These guys have established themselves as the second tier by beating everybody beneath them and having competitive matches with Cody and/or Moxley. They are certainly not "nobodies". They are upper midcarders. The hierarchy at the top is clear to me, and it's also clear they are not just trying to push everyone at the same time.

Jericho used to be top tier but since dropping the belt he's not been particularly relevant. Beating Jericho now is not the same as beating Cody or Moxley.

I would add Lance Archer to the second tier as well. Also The Young Bucks and FTR.

And if the women's division wasn't such a mess Hikaru Shida would be in that group. Maybe she defaults there because she's the women's champ but they certainly don't treat that title like a big deal. They made a bigger stink about Thunder Rosa being in matches than their own champ.

I kept it within the men's singles division.

I feel like Archer hasn't been featured enough to be second tier. Same story with Hager. Both guys are basically part-timers at the moment, but in terms of kayfabe credibility I guess they would be second tier.

They shield had a RPS system between the three. He was weak against Roman and strong against Seth. He was a grand slam winner in WWE in a short amount of time so definitely main eventer over there.

Seth won their feud. The only time Ambrose was made to look strong at any point was in 2016 and he notoriously fumbled the ball after Roman fumbled his opportunity. He was never the guy like he was in AEW, he was there-abouts, but it had more to do with his associations than as a character themselves. In AEW he's a stand-alone character who has beaten everyone on the roster.

In AEW, he is the top guy but besides Jericho he has beat nobody. His other three big opponents (Archer, Cage, and Lee)were built up as threats coming into the company beat up AEW jobbers like Stunt and unsigned indy jobbers only to lose to Moxley and do nothing. Now you Eddie Kingston who is getting his third title match in the company and has he even beat anyone who is actually on the roster yet.

They could definitely do a better job of this, but his victory over Omega is what put him on the map.

It's one of the flaws of how AEW books championship matches. Instead of utilising the ranking system and having guys climb the ladder, every PPV has some gimmick number one contendership match made up of guys who weren't over enough to have their own singles match. The newcomer invariably wins only to lose to Moxley in the end. nath45 called it the monster of the week syndrome and you can see why.

Nov 3, 2020 19:04:15 GMT Emperor said:

Nov 3, 2020 17:58:26 GMT X-zero said:

MJF did beat Cody and a few other real AEW talent so he probably counts I will give you that. Allin while fans do like him and want him to be the next big thing. He is still a nobody as of now. He hasn't beat anyone, it feels like every time he appears he has been off of tv for a while for some reason and has already failed against every single champion so far. They are a new promotion but they are trying to build too many people at the same time. You need to pick a few and make them stars first. Then you can make other stars off them.

Your notion of "real talent" and "nobodies" doesn't make any sense to me. If you have a new company and new roster then by your logic everybody is going to start out as a nobody because noone has won a match. Do we just class Moxley, Jericho and Cody as "real talent" and everybody else is a "nobody"? Is that what you're saying?

The way I see it, Moxley and Cody are at the top of the food chain, with Moxley above Cody in the pecking order.

The next level down is Chris Jericho, Kenny Omega, Hangman Page, Orange Cassidy, MJF, Darby Allin, PAC, Brodie Lee. These guys have established themselves as the second tier by beating everybody beneath them and having competitive matches with Cody and/or Moxley. They are certainly not "nobodies". They are upper midcarders. The hierarchy at the top is clear to me, and it's also clear they are not just trying to push everyone at the same time.

Jericho used to be top tier but since dropping the belt he's not been particularly relevant. Beating Jericho now is not the same as beating Cody or Moxley.

It is a new company but if you are only beating people who have never done anything in any somewhat known company WWE, Impact, ROH, NJPW, or some company that atleast people heard of it will be hard to make you seem like a star. Most people at least heard of the Elite members and the Ex-WWE guys. OC beat Jericho making him have beat a somebody. MJF has beat Cody so he has beat a somebody.

This is Darby Allin single wins in AEW

Darby Allin defeats Alex Chamberlain (Unsigned Dark jobber)
Darby Allin defeats Nick Comoroto (Unsigned Dark jobber)
Darby Allin defeats Ricky Starks (As good as I think Ricky Starks is he loses a lot in AEW)
Darby Allin defeats Luther (Has only been on Dynamite like once/Dark jobber)
Darby Allin defeats Will Hobbs (At the time unsigned Dark jobber)
Darby Allin defeats Robert Anthony (Unsigned Dark jobber)
Darby Allin defeats Serpentico (Dark jobber)
Darby Allin defeats Sammy Guevara
Darby Allin defeats Kip Sabian (Lower Card)
Darby Allin defeats Preston Vance (#10 of Dark Order/Jobber faction)
Darby Allin defeats Sammy Guevara
Darby Allin defeats Kip Sabian (Lower Card)
Darby Allin defeats Brandon Cutler (Jobber)
Darby Allin defeats CIMA (I think he won a single match)

Darby Allin biggest claim to fame is beating Sammy Guevara or CIMA which should not make him the second tier. If he beat someone else in that tier you mention maybe. But I don't count having competitive matches as something that should bump you up. Five of the Dark Order had one competitive match with Omega. Does he belong in upper mid card as well?

Nov 3, 2020 17:56:29 GMT RT said:

It sounds to me that Cornette is conflating the reasons these guys were underutilized with fans complaining and thinking they know better than Vince.

These guys weren't underutilized because Vince is out of touch, they were underutilized because the WWE roster is overflowing with talent. 

But still, the question remains.. despite whatever reasons they weren't utilized in WWE, why haven't they been promoted or pushed higher in AEW? Ie; AEW has 2 shows, why isn't Miro main eventing? Why isn't Spears a consistent upper-mid card worker? 

Nov 4, 2020 8:50:20 GMT NATH45 said:

Nov 3, 2020 17:56:29 GMT RT said:

It sounds to me that Cornette is conflating the reasons these guys were underutilized with fans complaining and thinking they know better than Vince.

These guys weren't underutilized because Vince is out of touch, they were underutilized because the WWE roster is overflowing with talent. 

But still, the question remains.. despite whatever reasons they weren't utilized in WWE, why haven't they been promoted or pushed higher in AEW? Ie; AEW has 2 shows, why isn't Miro main eventing? Why isn't Spears a consistent upper-mid card worker? 

Why should they main event? Because smarks got a good chuckle at "Rusev Day" and the "Perfect Ten" gimmick?

Tyler Dillinger/Shawn Spears has never been close to a main event talent. He's in the lower card of AEW, and that's exactly where he belongs, because he's not very good. Rusev is good, but to me he's not main event good.

I don't understand this notion that guys should be pushed hard just because they came from WWE. Get Roman Reigns in AEW, and sure, he should be at the top of the card right from the start. Why? Because he's a star. Rusev and Tye Dillinger were never stars. Rusev peaked in the upper midcard and Dillinger barely even sniffed the midcard.

Nov 4, 2020 4:00:35 GMT X-zero said:

It is a new company but if you are only beating people who have never done anything in any somewhat known company WWE, Impact, ROH, NJPW, or some company that atleast people heard of it will be hard to make you seem like a star. Most people at least heard of the Elite members and the Ex-WWE guys. OC beat Jericho making him have beat a somebody. MJF has beat Cody so he has beat a somebody.

Darby Allin biggest claim to fame is beating Sammy Guevara or CIMA which should not make him the second tier. If he beat someone else in that tier you mention maybe. But I don't count having competitive matches as something that should bump you up. Five of the Dark Order had one competitive match with Omega. Does he belong in upper mid card as well?

The reason why I keep mentioning that AEW is a new company is that you have to take some things for granted. AEW has only a handful of guys who have done anything significant in other companies. Calling people a "nobody" unless they have beaten one of a select few guys is absurd to me. You have to analyse this with respect to AEW's internal booking and their hierarchy - you can't base it just off external accomplishments that wrestler did prior to AEW existing.

I rate Darby Allin as second tier essentially because he is presented as a big deal. He's always in prominent feuds. He beats everyone except the select few guys. While I agree with your point that having one competitive match isn't really enough, Darby has done more than that. He Took Moxley to the limit. Took Cody to the limit. Time limit draw with Cody. Sure he hasn't beaten Cody or Moxley, but come on. He's clearly a lot more than a "nobody".

Nov 4, 2020 12:45:29 GMT Emperor said:

Nov 4, 2020 8:50:20 GMT NATH45 said:

But still, the question remains.. despite whatever reasons they weren't utilized in WWE, why haven't they been promoted or pushed higher in AEW? Ie; AEW has 2 shows, why isn't Miro main eventing? Why isn't Spears a consistent upper-mid card worker? 

Why should they main event? Because smarks got a good chuckle at "Rusev Day" and the "Perfect Ten" gimmick?

Tyler Dillinger/Shawn Spears has never been close to a main event talent. He's in the lower card of AEW, and that's exactly where he belongs, because he's not very good. Rusev is good, but to me he's not main event good.

I don't understand this notion that guys should be pushed hard just because they came from WWE. Get Roman Reigns in AEW, and sure, he should be at the top of the card right from the start. Why? Because he's a star. Rusev and Tye Dillinger were never stars. Rusev peaked in the upper midcard and Dillinger barely even sniffed the midcard.

The point is proven correct then. These talents weren't criminally underutilised in WWE as suggested by fans and even the workers themselves, they're just not very good thus their position on the AEW card.

Well...yeah, that was my point. I thought you were arguing otherwise.

It goes back to my point on talent and how a lot of these guys really aren't as good as what the fans or performers think they are. FTR and Miro were supposed to be game changers but they've been more like channel changers so far.

Even somebody like Jericho who was meant to carry the company has largely been a mid-card character happy to hyuck it up with Matt Hardy, Orange Cassidy and MJF. He's essentially assumed the exact same role he had in the WWE, when this was supposed to defy all that.

You'd think, Jericho's role was to put over new talent? ( Which pretty much what he was doing in WWE ) But I would suggest Cody - especially with Allin, and Moxley with Kingston are doing far more effective jobs. To Cody and Mox's credit, these guys cut fantastic promos this week. Mox is making Kingston. And Cody, fuck I hate saying this, keeps proving me wrong. 

Compare these to Jericho and MJF. A massive contrast to those dweebs hamming it up a few weeks back and making a mockery out of the company. Again, it's about execution. For Jericho, he don't care. He's walking away in a few years, and is happy to take the piss, but for MFJ, he needs a serious program to add some much needed credibility to his name. Ask EC3 how effective being a goofball is, or Zack Ryder? Ask Edge what he changed to become a main eventer.. 





Did I just give them praise? 

On reflection I understand where X-zero is coming from now.

In my posts I was limiting the scope to just within AEW. Darby Allin is a somebody in AEW. If we expand our base to pro-wrestling as a whole, Darby Allin is a nobody. As is most of AEW.

Now I understand why he described Omega, Jericho and Cody as the only somebodies in AEW. Makes sense.

AEW fans are annoying.

Nov 4, 2020 8:50:20 GMT NATH45 said:

Nov 3, 2020 17:56:29 GMT RT said:

It sounds to me that Cornette is conflating the reasons these guys were underutilized with fans complaining and thinking they know better than Vince.

These guys weren't underutilized because Vince is out of touch, they were underutilized because the WWE roster is overflowing with talent. 

But still, the question remains.. despite whatever reasons they weren't utilized in WWE, why haven't they been promoted or pushed higher in AEW? Ie; AEW has 2 shows, why isn't Miro main eventing? Why isn't Spears a consistent upper-mid card worker? 

Miro just got here. I'm actually glad AEW is keeping him out of the top card for a bit and letting him develop/become a new character - for him I'm happy to say let's reevaluate in about a year once he has some time under his belt.

It's still better than having him jump to the main event spot in a rehash of the "What's MIRO doing in the Impact Zone?" stuff that slowed the rise of a smaller promotion's homegrown talent and made it look like WWE: The Minor Leagues.

Oct 29, 2020 0:03:00 GMT Emperor said:

Oct 28, 2020 22:52:57 GMT Lionheart said:

Aside from Jericho, MJF, and Moxely / Moxley opponents, what promos do they have? Hardy Party? Does that even count? It's not a real storyline or feud with anyone. Maybe I am mixing up the words promo and storyline. There's a lot of short backstage two sentence comment things, but what about the traditional "wrestler A comes out and talks and wrestler B interrupts and it builds up the feud"? That doesn't happen except with Moxley and Jericho. WWE does this too, where they only have time for these things with the "upper card" storylines. But like I said earlier, that's better than just two guys in the whole company.

When I say promo I mean any segment where wrestlers are talking, whether it's a 2 minute backstage promo or a 15 minute segment in the ring. AEW has a lot more of the former, and I think that's a good thing. I am of the belief that promos should, as a rule, not exceed five minutes.

There are very very few wrestlers who can consistently cut good long promos. After all, they are wrestlers, not actors. Nobody in AEW can do that. Jon Moxley can't, and he doesn't. He cuts 2 minute promos backstage and they are all fantastic. Ditto with PAC. MJF had his long presidential candidate shpiel in his build to his match with Moxley. While I like the concept, the segments were far too long-winded for my liking. The in-ring segment between MJF and Jericho a couple of weeks ago was even worse. Endless rambling, taking forever to get to the point.

I like my wrestling to be closer to sports than sports-entertainment, so the "traditional" promo you talk about does not appeal to me. I want to watch wrestling, not a talk show.

I think this kind of got off track, but I basically agree with what you're saying. My point was, they are nowhere near as good as NJPW with their backstage-promos. The Moxley promos are good, but him and his opponents are basically the only one having them at all. Maybe one other feud at a time. Why should I care about the entire rest of the card when they never talk unless it's a comedy promo or less than 30 seconds of generic nonsense? I would just prefer if there's at least something.

Oct 29, 2020 0:03:00 GMT Emperor said:

Oct 28, 2020 22:52:57 GMT Lionheart said:

Of course Dark has more benefits than drawbacks. I didn't say it was completely worthless or would be better not existing, but that's a pretty damn low bar to set. Why do you even care if it's "not the point" if it doesn't entertain you in the slightest? Obviously we would both rather have something entertaining or something that helps improve the company overall further. You don't even watch Dark, so obviously it could be better and be made into something that you actually want to watch. The main point of the show is to be watched by fans so I don't know why you would take a stance against this.

It seems like you are just taking a "that's just how it's done" mentality as if it's okay because it's standard, despite there being much better options. You could give QT Marshall and Kip Sabian more ring-experience in real matches that aren't pointless squash matches.

It sounds like you're proposing that Dark should act as a second Dynamite. That's great in principle, but I think it's counterproductive in terms of attracting fans. If you have four hours of mandatory content instead of two hours, casual fans will stop paying attention because there's far too much to keep up with and it's not worth the effort. I'm willing to tune into Dynamite most weeks because it's only two hours. Turn that up to four hours across two shows and I'm out.

AEW Dark has its place as a semi-developmental show. No storyline development or significant matches, so you lose nothing by not watching, but it is freely available for those diehard fans who want to watch it. The goal isn't to put on amazing wrestling or have storylines.

That said, I disagree with the 100% squash matches format, I'd have it more like a WWE Main Event (does that still exist?) where you have maybe one or two squashes and then lower card guys wrestling in more competitive 5-10 minute matches.

The current Dark is counterproductive in terms of attracting fans. No one wants to watch it. It doesn't need to be a second Dynamite. It can still be entertaining without having story-critical development on it. Just some good matches. Maybe some of those good backstage promos (NJPW doesn't even air a ton of theirs on the main shows, so why not have them on Dark). Squash matches are not entertaining. You wouldn't be out if it was actually entertaining. I'm not sure where you are coming from since clearly you agree the show is not entertaining currently or you would be watching it.

You say 1-2 squashes would still be good with some good matches mixed in, which would certainly be an improvement. But I am still taking a hard stance that no squash matches would be better. You have yet to list a single benefit of a squash match. You do not gain credibility by beating weak jokers that everyone can beat and it does not entertain.

Oct 29, 2020 0:03:00 GMT Emperor said:

Oct 28, 2020 22:52:57 GMT Lionheart said:

If you think that a contender that was actually established and well-known to be a credible threat and a dangerous foe would suddenly not be credible just because he lost one match quickly, I don't think you are fully thinking it through at all. That is just a facetious argument. Especially if they immediately booked him as still being credible after. Like NATH45 said, booking plays a huge part in everything.

Sure, it depends on booking, but the booking has to be really good to be able to pull that off and it's not something you can trot out every week. As you say yourself, AEW has hardly proven to be a promotion with great booking, so let's keep it simple for now and keep some real jobbers for our squash matches instead of hurting wrestlers they are trying to build up.

I think you are looking at this the wrong way around. Currently, the jobbers are worthless and have absolutely 0 credibility. It can't possibly be worse than that. Might as well try and have a lot of them seeming like legit opponents and putting on entertaining matches. How is that not better?

Oct 29, 2020 0:03:00 GMT Emperor said:

Oct 28, 2020 22:52:57 GMT Lionheart said:

The problem isn't Omega being in AEW. It's him just not having many singles matches yet. It's booking. Of course you can't think of other great Omega singles matches when he has had almost no other singles matches except for, what I'm complaining about as a problem in the rest of this post, dumb squash matches that no one cares about. It seems like you really have the same complaint as me. He could be having these amazing singles matches on AEW dark and be coming off like the champion he was in NJPW.

His style has clearly changed in AEW, and his run in the tag team division has made me lose faith that Omega is capable of being "The Best Bout Machine" in AEW. I'm more than happy to be proven wrong in this latest singles run.

You will be proven wrong, starting with Omega Vs. Hangman which will steal the show.

Biggest match of his career and Kermit the Frog turns up..

Nov 8, 2020 6:10:41 GMT NATH45 said:

Biggest match of his career and Kermit the Frog turns up..

What, Kingston's Misawa gear?

Nov 8, 2020 6:32:46 GMT Big Pete said:

Nov 8, 2020 6:10:41 GMT NATH45 said:

Biggest match of his career and Kermit the Frog turns up..

What, Kingston's Misawa gear?

I get the ode to Misawa, but it looked awful. 

I'm a firm believer in ALL of the product looking strong or credible or at a minimal, presentable. From top of the card to the bottom. There's a scene in Beyond the Mat, where they are giving the UPW rookies advice on attire. Similarly here, you're not in Chikara anymore, this is the supposed big time. Look the part. Plenty of guys don't have great bodies, you don't have to be in trunks or tights. Take KO for example. And for a t-shirt company, if could have been a fantastic opportunity to launch a new black tee and have all eyes on it. 

Nov 11, 2020 0:26:53 GMT NATH45 said:

Nov 8, 2020 6:32:46 GMT Big Pete said:

What, Kingston's Misawa gear?

I get the ode to Misawa, but it looked awful. 

I'm a firm believer in ALL of the product looking strong or credible or at a minimal, presentable. From top of the card to the bottom. There's a scene in Beyond the Mat, where they are giving the UPW rookies advice on attire. Similarly here, you're not in Chikara anymore, this is the supposed big time. Look the part. Plenty of guys don't have great bodies, you don't have to be in trunks or tights. Take KO for example. And for a t-shirt company, if could have been a fantastic opportunity to launch a new black tee and have all eyes on it. 

I only asked because I hadn't watched the show and thought the Disco Inferno had have made a run-in - I can't listen to his youtube clips without thinking of Kermie.

I honestly don't think they see it as a problem. If this was the WWE it absolutely would be picked apart, but AEW probably sees it as a point of difference where guys get to dress more like themselves to match their personality.

Do you think Jericho would receive much of a run in the WWE in the shape he's in?

Nov 11, 2020 2:37:20 GMT Big Pete said:

Nov 11, 2020 0:26:53 GMT NATH45 said:

I get the ode to Misawa, but it looked awful. 

I'm a firm believer in ALL of the product looking strong or credible or at a minimal, presentable. From top of the card to the bottom. There's a scene in Beyond the Mat, where they are giving the UPW rookies advice on attire. Similarly here, you're not in Chikara anymore, this is the supposed big time. Look the part. Plenty of guys don't have great bodies, you don't have to be in trunks or tights. Take KO for example. And for a t-shirt company, if could have been a fantastic opportunity to launch a new black tee and have all eyes on it. 

I only asked because I hadn't watched the show and thought the Disco Inferno had have made a run-in - I can't listen to his youtube clips without thinking of Kermie.

I honestly don't think they see it as a problem. If this was the WWE it absolutely would be picked apart, but AEW probably sees it as a point of difference where guys get to dress more like themselves to match their personality.

Do you think Jericho would receive much of a run in the WWE in the shape he's in?

Jericho is an abomination, 50 years old or not.

Problem: the commentators never shut the fuck up about how wrestlers perform a pinfall as if it would make a fucking difference.

It literally doesn't matter if he hooked the leg or not, they're going to kick out of everything except a finisher and maybe a rollup.

Dec 3, 2020 21:56:18 GMT Emperor said:

Problem: the commentators never shut the fuck up about how wrestlers perform a pinfall as if it would make a fucking difference.

It literally doesn't matter if he hooked the leg or not, they're going to kick out of everything except a finisher and maybe a rollup.

I just wish they'd really put over the hooking of the leg. Not just AEW obviously, but I'd love a PBP guy to just go ham post-match about how important hooking the leg was.

Dec 3, 2020 21:56:18 GMT Emperor said:

Problem: the commentators never shut the fuck up about how wrestlers perform a pinfall as if it would make a fucking difference.

It literally doesn't matter if he hooked the leg or not, they're going to kick out of everything except a finisher and maybe a rollup.

I don't think you fully understand the mechanics of hooking a leg. When a competitor hooks the leg during a pinfall, it applies added pressure to the upper body of their opponent. The opponent then must exert extra force in order to escape the pinfall. It's science. Depending on how tired the opponent is, that small difference can be the difference maker. I encourage you to ask someone to pin you down with and without hooking a leg and try to kick out in each instance. It's a mountain of difference.

I would think, unless your opponent is completely KO'd, hooking the leg would be one of the only logically ways to score a pin fall.

Dec 3, 2020 21:56:18 GMT Emperor said:

Problem: the commentators never shut the fuck up about how wrestlers perform a pinfall as if it would make a fucking difference.

It literally doesn't matter if he hooked the leg or not, they're going to kick out of everything except a finisher and maybe a rollup.

That's -- I get the complaint but I think part of it is also wrestlers selling pretty much every move like it was a KO shot. Superkick to the chin? Sure, you're knocked out. Piledriver? Yeah. Gutbuster? Nah, you should have the wind knocked out of you and be gasping for air, which would mean you wouldn't be able to kick out, but you're not unconscious.

There should be more moves that shock your spine or keep you out of breath enough (but not necessarily knock you out) to keep you down for the 3 count.

Dec 10, 2020 2:42:01 GMT Michinokudriver said:

Dec 3, 2020 21:56:18 GMT Emperor said:

Problem: the commentators never shut the fuck up about how wrestlers perform a pinfall as if it would make a fucking difference.

It literally doesn't matter if he hooked the leg or not, they're going to kick out of everything except a finisher and maybe a rollup.

That's -- I get the complaint but I think part of it is also wrestlers selling pretty much every move like it was a KO shot. Superkick to the chin? Sure, you're knocked out. Piledriver? Yeah. Gutbuster? Nah, you should have the wind knocked out of you and be gasping for air, which would mean you wouldn't be able to kick out, but you're not unconscious.

There should be more moves that shock your spine or keep you out of breath enough (but not necessarily knock you out) to keep you down for the 3 count.

Psychology and independent wrestling doesn't go hand in hand.

I'll take more of the Varsity Blondes & less of Best Friends. Chuck & Trent are lame.