Nov 7, 2020 17:46:26 GMT 🤯 said:

Nov 7, 2020 17:37:58 GMT WP said:

Halloween Havoc 1998 has entered the chat.

I had hoped it would go without saying that I meant in the WWF, and ideally prior to 1993.

:lol:

Ah, I know my man :lol: I really think a rematch in the Fed with either man turning heel to add a new dimension to the build and match itself could've done big business!

Trying to keeping a running log of favorite/best WrestleManias as we wade through the WatchThru...

So far:
1. WrestleMania 3
2. WrestleMania 6
3. WrestleMania 5
4. WrestleMania 4
5. WrestleMania 1
6. WrestleMania 2

WrestleMania 2 was better than it had any right to be, and was an interesting experiment, but ultimately made for a bit of a clunky show.

WrestleMania 1 benefits from the novelty of being the first one and getting to see all the kinks that had yet to be worked out.

WrestleMania 4 was another fun experimental concept, but arguably had some room for improvement with some of those tournament results (here's looking namely at the boring slog of Snake/Rude going to a time limit draw).

WrestleMania 5 is mostly a one match card, as is WrestleMania 6. While 5's main event has the better storyline and build, 6 has the better atmosphere as far as venue and vibe of titans clashing.

WrestleMania 3 is as close to perfection as it gets. Thinking it might prove to be my favorite/best WrestleMania considering WrestleMania X-Seven suffers from the Austin heel turn.

We shall see!

Nov 7, 2020 16:10:33 GMT 🤯 said:

Man, I can't even imagine how unreal Hogan vs. Warrior must've been for fans in real time.

There were a handful of other matches I liked more for mark reasons, but I rated Hogan/Warrior as the greatest match I ever saw until 1995. Hogan/Warrior was either the first or second (depending on your Savage/Steamboat take) epic match I ever saw. Dueling finisher kickouts! You just didn't see that back then. I also thought this was one of the two biggest (along with Hogan/Andre) matches of all time. For years decades I just assumed Hogan/Warrior drew an all time great buyrate. Mind blown when Strobe informed me Hogan/Savage @ WM 5 actually outdrew Hogan/Warrior @ WM 6.

Also agree with you on Hogan kicking out at 3.1 and WWF leaving money on the table by not booking a rematch. The main story of Hogan/Warrior is they were evenly matched. Hogan had finally encountered an equal. Turns out Warrior was just a split second better on that one particular night. It made perfect sense in the context of the story they told.

As for the rematch, WM 7 is the obviously the easiest revisionist choice. Summerslam '91 also would have worked. Always thought the Summerslam '91 main was super weak. That wouldn't even have been a particularly strong SNME draw imo. Slaughter was dead to me as a threat by then, while his lackey Colonel Mustafa always had been.

Maybe I'm reading the crowd wrong, but Davey Boy Smith seems pretty over at WM7. Getting me wondering why there wasn't an experiment to go all in on him. He could move, he could wrestle, he had the power, he had the size, and he has that international appeal. Certainly he could've been the next Ultimate Warrior experiment.

This far into the WrestleMania WatchThru, and Warrior/Savage at WM7 is far and away my favorite.

I'd have had no problem with this being for the title and being the main event. I'm even OK with the five elbow drops (instead of only three) and shoulder block finish.

Warrior gets to survive Savage's finisher x5 and end his career with a boot on the chest. To me, that's plenty to not be overshadowed by the epic post-match. Savage and Liz are enough of a WWF institution by this point, they totally work as a show closer.

WM7 just has the first ever double main event with Hogan perhaps finally vanquishing Quake in a stretcher or cage match.

Knockoff Demolition vs. Kitao & Tenryu makes me think neither team really had a place on the card considering how dead the crowd is.

Thinking Kitao & Tenryu should've just squashes Orient Express and LOD should've just squashed knockoff Demo.

Trivia fact: first powerbomb in WrestleMania history is performed by Tenryu.

Continued (controversial?) opinions from WM7:

It's a shame Ventura was gone and didn't call Warrior/Savage and the aftermath. Feel like his commentary would've been a million times better for that match and moment.

Nov 7, 2020 16:10:33 GMT 🤯 said:

Losing some momentum on the WrestleMania WatchThru, but finally just finished WM6...

Man, I can't even imagine how unreal Hogan vs. Warrior must've been for fans in real time.

Also, I'll go on record to defend that Hogan's 3.1 kickout didn't hurt the finish at all IMO based on the story the match was telling. Shame we never got an Ultimate Rematch and Ultimate Rubber Match.

Like 🤯  and Baker , I have zero problems with Hogan's kickout. As said, it perfectly fit the story. They were close to evenly matched but Warrior just that hair better. Maybe only on the night or was he just that hair better overall? Had Hogan's time passed? It really was set up for a trilogy in terms of story. Hogan winning the rematch in a similar manner and then a decider. I've always loved Hogan's post-match reaction, both hands in the air and then falls to his knees, then puts one arm up with the one finger to say "it was one second I lost by" and then slams that fist down to the mat. That's such a great visual, the sort of thing that sticks in the mind. It isn't part of the bell to bell, but that is a sign of a great wrestler. Sure, he may have been trying to steal some of Warrior's thunder, but Warrior needs to overcome that. Warrior's problems wouldn't have gone away if Hogan had stayed flat on his back for the count and just walked away post-match. Warrior was still going to have a serious lack of over heels to go up against and the most over heel, along with best story, was going to Hogan. He was still going to come across as a psycho when in character on talk shows and the like. I do wonder if Warrior is one of those guys whose overness was always going to be beyond his drawing ability, even if conditions had been ideal.

Due to how he behaved later in his career, people focus a lot on Hogan taking the attention away from Warrior post-match, but he did put him over clean in one of his best cities on the big show. That had never been done since CWC left the NWA and became the WWWF almost 30 years prior, a face to face swap. History would've told you that, if they were putting the title on Warrior at Mania VI, they'd have done something like The Genius helping Perfect steal the title in early 1990 and then have Warrior end the Perfect Record at Mania to become champ.

Thinking about the Gimmick/Prop/Name Fantasy thread, do we go with The Ultimate Rematch? It does seem an obvious choice. The Ultimate Defence fits in with The Ultimate Challenge, but just doesn't sound quite right. Would a third one be The Ultimate Decider? I feel like Hogan would not be too pleased at Ultimate being used for each one.

Nov 8, 2020 2:14:05 GMT Baker said:

I also thought this was one of the two biggest (along with Hogan/Andre) matches of all time. For years decades I just assumed Hogan/Warrior drew an all time great buyrate. Mind blown when Strobe informed me Hogan/Savage @ WM 5 actually outdrew Hogan/Warrior @ WM 6.

Also agree with you on Hogan kicking out at 3.1 and WWF leaving money on the table by not booking a rematch. The main story of Hogan/Warrior is they were evenly matched. Hogan had finally encountered an equal. Turns out Warrior was just a split second better on that one particular night. It made perfect sense in the context of the story they told.

As for the rematch, WM 7 is the obviously the easiest revisionist choice. Summerslam '91 also would have worked. Always thought the Summerslam '91 main was super weak. That wouldn't even have been a particularly strong SNME draw imo. Slaughter was dead to me as a threat by then, while his lackey Colonel Mustafa always had been.

Like Baker , before I knew, I always assumed Hogan/Warrior was #3. Hogan/Andre unassailable #1. Austin/Rock II #2. Then Hogan/Warrior. Face vs. face! Stadium crowd (though I never thought Mania VIII was particularly big based on that)! Hogan drops the title! I remember being almost disbelieving that it did less than three quarters of the buys that Hogan/Savage did. Man does that shit Trump Plaza crowd make that match seem less than the monstrous deal that it was. Makes complete sense that Hogan/Savage was bigger. Essentially the previous 18 months of the Fed had been built around the Mega Powers and Savage was a mega-star who had been champ for a year. 1990 Warrior was over, but he wasn't 1988-89 Savage. Now, would a Mega Powers face vs face match have done as good business? I have my doubts. It is hard to see how it would've worked really. Savage amicably giving Hogan a shot. Liz's role as unsure and hoping neither man hurts the other wouldn't work as well in that context. And don't discount that people want to see the expected ending. Unpredictability can be overrated as a draw. People pay money to see Superman prevail on the big show.

Nov 8, 2020 13:01:10 GMT 🤯 said:

Maybe I'm reading the crowd wrong, but Davey Boy Smith seems pretty over at WM7. Getting me wondering why there wasn't an experiment to go all in on him. He could move, he could wrestle, he had the power, he had the size, and he has that international appeal. Certainly he could've been the next Ultimate Warrior experiment.

Bulldog may have had a chance in 1993. With business waning in the States but rising in Europe, he was an option. If he had not gotten busted for HGH along with Warrior, who knows. I know Bret always said the plan was for Davey to drop the belt to Shawn and it does makes sense that the title was destined for HBK given the plans if Wembley was not the site of SummerSlam. But Wembley WAS the site of SummerSlam, Bulldog won the IC in a massive match, and plans certainly were changing around this period with Bret getting the World Title out of nowhere. I'm not so sure they do the SNME title change if Bulldog doesn't get busted, they were promoting his IC Title match against Mountie for Survivor Series after all. Have Davey drop the IC to Shawn at Mania IX and I can see a Wembley rematch at SummerSlam 1993 for the World Title.

The problems for Davey as the guy, excluding the fact he was clearly juiced to the gills, is that he wasn't as good a talker as even Bret and outside of the UK, Bret was more over in the rest of Europe. And Bret was really over in the UK himself. Davey was also not as good in the ring either.

Nov 8, 2020 14:09:10 GMT 🤯 said:

WM7 just has the first ever double main event with Hogan perhaps finally vanquishing Quake in a stretcher or cage match.

I really wish that one of the Hogan/Quake stretcher matches had made it on to tape. I'm curious to see what they were like. Perfect gimmick match blowoff after Quake had been putting people, Hogan included, on stretchers throughout 1990. They had like 25 of them from early-Jan through mid-March. Quite surprising there isn't at least a fan-cam out there.

Nov 8, 2020 14:22:35 GMT 🤯 said:

Knockoff Demolition vs. Kitao & Tenryu makes me think neither team really had a place on the card considering how dead the crowd is.



Thinking Kitao & Tenryu should've just squashes Orient Express and LOD should've just squashed knockoff Demo.

The fall of Demolition was shockingly quick. Seriously over faces winning back the belts from Andre/Haku at Mania VI. Within a couple of months, they had turned heel and added Crush to the mix, with the expected chances of winning drastic go down. They were never the same and the LOD feud ended up being a dud. Survivor Series was Ax's last match and half a year after that big Mania win, they were basically dead. Half a year later, they were officially dead post-Mania VII.

Agreed that there was no reason to not just have LOD squash them to officially finish them off, rather than squash, and help kill, the good P&G tag team. Who had been fucked over by WCW's incompetence of not having the Nastys on a contract when they had the impressive Steiners Havoc 1990 match, as P&G seemed like they could've been in line for that transition reign from Hart Foundation to LOD before the Nastys came in.

If Quake is not with Hogan and available to use, I still really like my International Six-Man idea with Steamboat's return. Otherwise, OX seems an obvious quick squash for Tenryu/Kitao. It was just a favour to Tenryu due to their working agreement. The crowd was never going to know who they were or care, which is why I like getting Steamer involved on their side, and mentioning in the build about Tenryu and Kitao being sumo wrestlers and having them do some sumo stuff with Quake could get the crowd cheering for them.

Nov 9, 2020 2:13:39 GMT 🤯 said:

Continued (controversial?) opinions from WM7:



It's a shame Ventura was gone and didn't call Warrior/Savage and the aftermath. Feel like his commentary would've been a million times better for that match and moment.

I could get behind someone arguing for Bobby Heenan as their number 1 wrestling personality overall. Wrestler, manager, bumper and bleeder extraordinaire, host, promo, commentator.

But as far as being the #1 WWF heel commentator, it is Jesse. Heenan is #2, so he was a very good replacement, but Ventura was unparalleled. While Heenan was basically a full-on comedian as a commentator, Ventura was hilarious but also serious, discussing strategy, putting over wrestlers, and putting over the magnitude of moments and matches. His voice is one of the coolest you'll find and just his size and presence, and history as a serious wrestling threat, gave him credibility. Great partner for both Vince and Gorilla. I can just hear him saying "this makes me sick, Monsoooooon" while Savage and Liz hug.

Ventura's two best moments may be the praising of Hogan at Mania III and VI. The Body kayfabe hates Hogan and was always been shitting on him, but even he can't deny Hogan kayfabe credit for defeating Andre ("I never thought it could be done, Gorilla") and handling his defeat to Warrior with class ("I do believe Hulkamania will live forever"). Years in the making those lines and gives them real power.

I like Strobe 's Ultimate Trilogy idea. That's what we would have got in a perfect world. Although WWF probably made the right decision by not putting all their eggs in that basket. They likely would have been screwed when Warrior pulled a Warrior by bailing out right before the decisive third match.

I've never been sold on Bulldog as even a theoretical top guy. As Strobe mentioned, his mic skills were poor. He was also a liability due to WWF cracking down on drugs during the time in question. The last thing they needed was for their champion to busted for steroids, or show up to a PPV in no condition to perform. Nor was he a super worker like Bret. Bulldog was one of those guys who wrestled to the level of his opponents. The only way this works even in theory is if they go all in on the UK. Best case scenario he has a quickie reign by beating some heel (Flair?) in the UK to reward those fans.

Never thought of those Hogan/Quake Stretcher Matches but it is odd that not a single one has surfaced. I wouldn't give up hope just yet though. After all, we now live in a world where people have seen Bret/Magee.

Strobe: What do you mean by the Demolition/LOD feud being a dud? Did it not draw? Was there just a general lack of interest? I don't doubt you. I only ask because it's another feud that was huge on the playground.

People Who Knew Stuff: Demolition ARE the ripoffs!
Me, a WWF Kid: Nuh uh! Demolition are the originators! It's LOD who are the ripoffs!

Demolition vs. LOD was Serious Business on the playground. There weren't many 1990 WWF feuds I was more into than Demolition/LOD. I genuinely thought LOD were troll heels who the fans cheered just because Demolition were the designated villains. Speaking of Demolition's villain status, what was the catalyst for their heel turn? I'm drawing a blank on why they reverted back to bad guy status.

Is Tenryu & Kitao vs. Demolition the oddest Wrestlemania match of all time? It has to be up there. Imagine being a know nothing kid watching Wrestlemania 7. This match had no hype. You have two unknowns challenging the mighty Demolition. And the unknowns win! Quickly! That should have been a huge deal! But Demolition is never seen again. The match is never mentioned again. Kitao disappears forever. And "Tenjyu" wouldn't resurface again until the 1993 Royal Rumble where only the most hardcore WWF fanboys *raises hand* remembered him.

Not that it mattered in the long run since this was ultimately just a one off, but WWF could have done a lot more to promote Tenryu & Kitao. Just a quick highlight video of their work in Japan airing one weekend on Superstars and Challenge would have done the trick.

Do you know if this was treated as a big deal by the Japanese wrestling press? I imagine pics of Tenryu & Kitao conquering Demolition at Wrestlemania were all over the Japanese wrestling mags. 

Agree with Strobe on The Body > The Brain when it comes to strictly being a heel commentator. Heenan/Monsoon get all the love, but Jesse/Vince are right there with them as far as I'm concerned.

Along the same lines as Jesse putting over Hogan, I still remember Ventura putting The Can Am Connection over hard in early 1987. Jesse picking the good guy Can Ams to beat bad guys Orton & Muraco at Wrestlemania III gave Martel & Zenk huge credibility with kiddie me. Like "Whoa! Strike Force must be good if Jesse thinks they're going to win!" I always took notice when a heel commentator put the babyfaces over that strong, or vice versa. In fairness to The Brain, his "He's not human!" line about Undertaker at Survivor Series '93 got 'Taker even more over with my friends and I. My friends in particular loved that line.

WrestleMania WatchThru...

WM7 main event notes—

Super interesting to see USA-powered Hulk struggle to get out of the Boston crab and using the ropes for a break instead of powering out in heroic fashion.

Then Sarge's top rope knee and the blood.

This match gets so much unfair hate.

Updating!

Nov 7, 2020 22:59:01 GMT 🤯 said:

Trying to keeping a running log of favorite/best WrestleManias as we wade through the WatchThru...

So far:
1. WrestleMania 3
2. WrestleMania 6
3. WrestleMania 5
4. WrestleMania 4
5. WrestleMania 1
6. WrestleMania 2

WrestleMania 2 was better than it had any right to be, and was an interesting experiment, but ultimately made for a bit of a clunky show.

WrestleMania 1 benefits from the novelty of being the first one and getting to see all the kinks that had yet to be worked out.

WrestleMania 4 was another fun experimental concept, but arguably had some room for improvement with some of those tournament results (here's looking namely at the boring slog of Snake/Rude going to a time limit draw).

WrestleMania 5 is mostly a one match card, as is WrestleMania 6. While 5's main event has the better storyline and build, 6 has the better atmosphere as far as venue and vibe of titans clashing.

WrestleMania 3 is as close to perfection as it gets. Thinking it might prove to be my favorite/best WrestleMania considering WrestleMania X-Seven suffers from the Austin heel turn.

We shall see!

1. WrestleMania 3
2. WrestleMania 7
3. WrestleMania 6
4. WrestleMania 5
5. WrestleMania 4
6. WrestleMania 1
7. WrestleMania 2

WM7 is perhaps the most underrated/underappreciated because of how weak on paper the main event seems, the tanking business resulting in a shift from the Coliseum to the Sports Arena, and lack of tact perhaps for trying to still milk Desert Storm after it was well done and over.

But the main event was awesome in reality, and IMO at least on par with Savage/DiBiase, Hogan/Bundy, and Hogan/Savage in the ring. It doesn't have the celebrity factor of WM1's main event, and I doubt anything can readily recapture the titanic magnitude of Hogan/André or Hogan/Warrior so that shouldn't be held against this.

Sarge is bumping and wrestling way better than I expected at his seeming age. The crimson mask and some of the spots, and even lesser nuances like Hogan needing a rope break make this a perfectly great main event. The crowd being pumped up in a pro-USA frenzy gives this an added boost.

And thinking on it, I like how Hogan has worked entirely different opponents/stories for his Mania arc.

- WM1 he tags with his celeb pal to put a pair of pesky cocky playground bullies in their place.

- WM2 he plays the injured underdog to overcome a monster in a monstrous environment.

- WM3 he deals with betrayal and doubt on every level as he must clash with the one entity perhaps bigger than Hulkamania.

- WM4 we see him in wild revenge mode, getting himself disqualified to take out now mortal enemy André. Then we get to see how he adjusts to stepping aside and playing cornerman for a new buddy.

- WM5 he deals with betrayal again, but this time in a match against a smaller and more agile opponent. The champion vs. challenger dynamic is also officially reversed this time around.

- WM6 is an epic clash of face titans. I'd argue this was way more of an irresistible force (Warrior) meets immovable object (Hogan) story than Hogan/André. Or at the very least a reversal of force and object roles for Hogan.

- WM7 is really the first time IMO where it's a pure good vs. evil affair, with a much more nefarious villain that everyone's collectively rooting for Hogan to defeat. All previous Manias, you could potentially easily argue Hogan's opponents had points of views that made sense on some level and so his opponents could rightly still have the fans' respect. Not really so with an American turncoat still supporting a defeated dictator.

Anyway... WM7 is supported by an excellent undercard requiring relatively few rebook alterations if you were to really hard-press me on it. Bulldog/Warlord, Rockers/Faces of Fear, Foundation/Nastys, and Undertaker's debut... All super solid. Dibiase/Virgil, Bossman/Perfect, and especially Warrior/Savage with the post-match truly buoys the show beyond doubt. Overall good shit, pal!

Also, I think son is becoming a Hulkamaniac.

Hulk was genius to pivot to that simple bright yellow against his dark tan body. Nice high contrast that really captures young kiddo eyes that are still developing.

Can't wait until son is independent and sits at the dinner table and sees something he doesn't like and tells Wife and 🤯 this doesn't work for me brother.

Nov 10, 2020 1:55:04 GMT Baker said:

Strobe: What do you mean by the Demolition/LOD feud being a dud? Did it not draw? Was there just a general lack of interest? I don't doubt you. I only ask because it's another feud that was huge on the playground.

I'm not even fully sure how much of a dud it was in terms of business. It was headlining shows with Warrior involved and I don't know how they did. But it has just always felt that way, with Ax leaving and the feud never getting a true blowoff. I guess you could say it just feels unmemorable overall as a feud, especially given the on paper expectations.

Warrior was inserted into the feud from the off, which you'd think should've been great, but it does say a lot about Warrior as champ in 1990 and their lack of good heels/plans. Tag teams were never treated as main event players in Vince's Fed and here Warrior gets put into a tag team feud coming out of SummerSlam. And the WWF had acquired LOD not that long before, so it isn't like this had been planned for a while, so what did they even have planned for Warrior originally? Did getting Warrior involved make Demolition feel lesser? Perhaps. The addition of Crush already had not helped.

You got:

SNME (10/13): Fun, quick 6-man but Demolition lose decisively right at the start of the feud.
Superstars (11/10): Nice beatdown angle at the end of LOD/OX, but it feels like it was too late to heat Demo back up again.
Survivor Series (11/22): Ax's last night, he is pinned early and then LOD do double DQ with Smash and Crush. It is done basically.

WrestleMania WatchThru feedback as we're almost done with WM8...

Sid is so fucking awesome. I kinda totally get why they went with Hogan and him in the real main event instead of Flair. I'm wondering if they should've just run Hogan/Flair at Survivor Series and then This Tuesday in Texas.

Nov 26, 2020 13:40:29 GMT 🤯 said:

WrestleMania WatchThru feedback as we're almost done with WM8...

Sid is so fucking awesome. I kinda totally get why they went with Hogan and him in the real main event instead of Flair. I'm wondering if they should've just run Hogan/Flair at Survivor Series and then This Tuesday in Texas.

I think had Hogan/Sid had a proper finish it would have been much more fondly received and remembered.

As it stands, considering the bloodshed and chaos involved with the actual world title match, and that the main event ended on a DQ wet fart... I don't see any issue with a rebook that goes with Hogan/Flair as a main event, ends in a DQ with perhaps a Sid run-in to join a Flair/Perfect schmoz... With returning Warrior still coming to the rescue for show closing with HOGAN AND WARRIOR MUST POSE, PAL!!!

Updating!

Nov 14, 2020 14:02:01 GMT 🤯 said:

Updating!

Nov 7, 2020 22:59:01 GMT 🤯 said:

Trying to keeping a running log of favorite/best WrestleManias as we wade through the WatchThru...

So far:
1. WrestleMania 3
2. WrestleMania 6
3. WrestleMania 5
4. WrestleMania 4
5. WrestleMania 1
6. WrestleMania 2

WrestleMania 2 was better than it had any right to be, and was an interesting experiment, but ultimately made for a bit of a clunky show.

WrestleMania 1 benefits from the novelty of being the first one and getting to see all the kinks that had yet to be worked out.

WrestleMania 4 was another fun experimental concept, but arguably had some room for improvement with some of those tournament results (here's looking namely at the boring slog of Snake/Rude going to a time limit draw).

WrestleMania 5 is mostly a one match card, as is WrestleMania 6. While 5's main event has the better storyline and build, 6 has the better atmosphere as far as venue and vibe of titans clashing.

WrestleMania 3 is as close to perfection as it gets. Thinking it might prove to be my favorite/best WrestleMania considering WrestleMania X-Seven suffers from the Austin heel turn.

We shall see!

1. WrestleMania 3
2. WrestleMania 7
3. WrestleMania 6
4. WrestleMania 5
5. WrestleMania 4
6. WrestleMania 1
7. WrestleMania 2

WM7 is perhaps the most underrated/underappreciated because of how weak on paper the main event seems, the tanking business resulting in a shift from the Coliseum to the Sports Arena, and lack of tact perhaps for trying to still milk Desert Storm after it was well done and over.

But the main event was awesome in reality, and IMO at least on par with Savage/DiBiase, Hogan/Bundy, and Hogan/Savage in the ring. It doesn't have the celebrity factor of WM1's main event, and I doubt anything can readily recapture the titanic magnitude of Hogan/André or Hogan/Warrior so that shouldn't be held against this.

Sarge is bumping and wrestling way better than I expected at his seeming age. The crimson mask and some of the spots, and even lesser nuances like Hogan needing a rope break make this a perfectly great main event. The crowd being pumped up in a pro-USA frenzy gives this an added boost.

And thinking on it, I like how Hogan has worked entirely different opponents/stories for his Mania arc.

- WM1 he tags with his celeb pal to put a pair of pesky cocky playground bullies in their place.

- WM2 he plays the injured underdog to overcome a monster in a monstrous environment.

- WM3 he deals with betrayal and doubt on every level as he must clash with the one entity perhaps bigger than Hulkamania.

- WM4 we see him in wild revenge mode, getting himself disqualified to take out now mortal enemy André. Then we get to see how he adjusts to stepping aside and playing cornerman for a new buddy.

- WM5 he deals with betrayal again, but this time in a match against a smaller and more agile opponent. The champion vs. challenger dynamic is also officially reversed this time around.

- WM6 is an epic clash of face titans. I'd argue this was way more of an irresistible force (Warrior) meets immovable object (Hogan) story than Hogan/André. Or at the very least a reversal of force and object roles for Hogan.

- WM7 is really the first time IMO where it's a pure good vs. evil affair, with a much more nefarious villain that everyone's collectively rooting for Hogan to defeat. All previous Manias, you could potentially easily argue Hogan's opponents had points of views that made sense on some level and so his opponents could rightly still have the fans' respect. Not really so with an American turncoat still supporting a defeated dictator.

Anyway... WM7 is supported by an excellent undercard requiring relatively few rebook alterations if you were to really hard-press me on it. Bulldog/Warlord, Rockers/Faces of Fear, Foundation/Nastys, and Undertaker's debut... All super solid. Dibiase/Virgil, Bossman/Perfect, and especially Warrior/Savage with the post-match truly buoys the show beyond doubt. Overall good shit, pal!

1. WrestleMania 3
2. WrestleMania 8
3. WrestleMania 7
4. WrestleMania 6
5. WrestleMania 5
6. WrestleMania 4
7. WrestleMania 1
8. WrestleMania 2

WrestleMania VIII with just a clean finish to Hogan/Sid and no other tweaks eeks really close to WrestleMania III level perfection IMO.

That botched DQ finish though really leaves a sour taste, and I find myself struggling with whether I overrate the show in spite of it or underrate the show because of it.

It's definitely buoyed by an incredibly strong undercard as we start the transition to the New Generation.

Unlike WMIII though, I can totally get behind the rebooked versions of WMVIII. But I'm surprised how much I loved Sid as the Hogan opponent here. It's a damn shame Sid wasn't sticking around. Can you imagine him killing off Hogan with three powerbombs here?! Then killing off Warrior at SummerSlam, then Savage at Survivor Series to become world champ? Then maybe Flair turns face to face Sid at the Rumble, only to be killed off too.

Sid has now torn through every major star of the late 80s and early 90s. Set him up as the big bad for Bret to dethrone at WrestleMania IX for Bret's first world title win. Fuck me... Sid was the best, and could've been so much more.

WrestleMania WatchThru...

The header Scott Steiner takes from the ring to the floor on a botched hot shot spot legit scared Savage, Ross, and Heenan. Definitely the scariest dive I've seen since Taker's at WM25.

So far (only three matches in) only real comment about improving WrestleMania IX is shorten these matches by 3-5 minutes and redo to commentary team.

Controversial opinion(?): Crush is underrated.

Low key dream match for me is prime Crush vs. prime King Kong Bundy

Also, the second Doink was portrayed by Steve Kiern?

Second Doink should've eventually been revealed as Boink, Doink's more evil twin. Tag team title reign ensues.

Backlund vs. Razor seemed like such a bad use of both talents.



Also, wish they'd had footage of Lex Luger knocking Bret out at brunch.

Is IRS perhaps the low key greatest heel ever? There's so much to dislike about him. Even the Baker-men of the world who rooted for heels... I can't imagine anyone (save perhaps my dad) finding anything about IRS appealing enough to root for him.

Hulk's eye is fucking gross!

Across five WrestleManias, Ted DiBiase has definitively the WORST physique of any wrestler not intentionally trying to be a flabby sack of shit (pre Chris Hero, that is).

Resuming WrestleMania IX after intermission...

Still no good matches so far, and stand by thinking each needed 3-5 minutes trimmed.

Perfect/Lex was a mess. Perfect, Lex, Razor, Tatanka, Shawn, Taker, Bret, Yoko, and Steiners all needed to be used and featured better IMO if this shoe's purpose was to establish the New Generation. I'll drop rebook ideas once the show wraps.

Meanwhile, Giant Gonzalez's ring gear is the most hilariously disturbing attire in wrestling history. Actually it's 1b. The only thing that tops it is Naked Mideon' s fanny pack.

Here were all my Wrestlemania takes from April.


Wrestlemania IV - My biggest take-away was the arrival of all the talent that would go onto define this period of Pro Wrestling. I'm talking the Ultimate Warrior, Ravishing Rick Rude, The Million Dollar Man and Demolition, all big acts who featured prominently through out the show. Watching this 30 odd years later, I tried to put myself in the shoes of the fans and what their expectations were like going in. This was coming off the white hot Andre/Hogan rematch and the tournament looked wide open. Even if it was common knowledge that Hogan was going to be out of action, the ride would have been fun. Instead they took the safest route possible, denying us a Savage-Steamboat match, a Savage-Rude match and a proper conclusion to Hogan-Andre. I could imagine being miserable with the undercard but ultimately happy to see Savage with the belt back when that still meant something. Again, the WWF made it pretty clear that Savage didn't really become the champion, rather he was keeping the title warm for Hogan and that this was still the Hogan show. In hindsight, I saw it more as a prelude to Wrestlemania V which would take place in the same arena and was a proper Wrestlemania.

Wrestlemania V - I was really curious to check this show out since I was only familiar with Hogan/Savage. I was really surprised by how rock solid this show was and even if a match like Andre/Jake didn't deliver, it was still an interesting match on paper and got over how effective Roberts was at playing mind games. Here is this larger than life bonafide wrestling legend and Roberts has him utterly petrified - that's more powerful than any 1-2-3. I thought the show was filled with really intriguing matches like that as well as just good matches like the Blazer/Perfect and Rockers/Towers which both felt ahead of their time. I thought the Piper/Downey segment was one of the greatest celebrity segments in Mania history, you could cut the tension with a knife and that was a great use of the Hot Rod. Savage/Hogan was a well laid out match, but it had the most ridiculous Hulk Up spot of any Wrestlemania. It was like they put the match together for Savage to win, only to pull the rug out right at the death. It was ridiculous, but it was Hogan and he could get away with anything back then.

Wrestlemania VI - Felt like the spiritual successor to Wrestlemania III as far as it having that big stadium atmosphere. Like III, there's plenty of excess on the show but in the WWF Tag Titles match, Beefcake/Perfect, Piper/Brown, Savage/Sherri vs. Dusty/Sapphire, Dibiase/Roberts and Bossman/Akeem there's enough worthwhile bouts taking place and I'd never say no to a Rockers/Orient match even though they would go onto have a much better match at the Rumble. Watching a lot of these Hogan matches, I'm happy to say that VI is my favourite. It felt like a classic sports match where a champion player stands against all adversity and almost pulls it out only for the opposition to pull out the clutch play right at the death. Such a well thought out match and Hogan did an excellent job of putting the match over. Fans complain that he over-shadowed Warrior, but I think it was just as much about Hogan as it was about Warrior winning the title.

Wrestlemania VII - It felt weird not having Ventura at the booth. I always enjoyed Heenan as a commentator, but this was the first show where I could understand where the Monsoon/Ventura crowd was coming from. I was very familiar with the 1-2 punch of Savage/Warrior & Hogan/Slaughter and I had seen the Hart Foundation vs. Nasties on Vintage Collection way back when but the rest of the show was new to me. Definitely has a IV vibe as far as showcasing a lot of new acts like The Undertaker, Texas Tornado, Legion of Doom and a couple of repackaged acts in The Mountie and The British Bulldog. Throw in a big time Virgil/Dibiase showdown, a nice farewell segment from Andre getting one last thing over Heenan and the sick Rockers/Faces of Fear opener and you've got one of the most rock solid cards of all-time. Once again, Roberts had another segment that technically wasn't brilliant but it connected with the crowd in a big way with his blindfold segment. The crowd played along with that brilliantly and that was a really well put together program for the two.

I can understand why fans weren't into this. Not only was it full on with the pro-America propaganda, but Slaughter had basically returned out of nowhere, turned heel, won the WWF Championship and you were supposed to be invested in another Hogan Wrestlemania moment.

Wrestlemania IX - I really wanted to like this show. The Caser Palace theme, the more forgiving run-time, the fresh faces, JR on commentary all the ingredients were there but it just didn't deliver. The guys worked their asses off, but they were given nothing to work with and the writing was so wishy washy that by the Mega Maniacs/Money Inc match it was undeniably a bad show. I used to think Hogan winning the title was the worst part of the show, but now it's easily my favourite. The majority of the show was a train wreck, so having Hogan set things right to give the fans some hope that the WWF may recapture it's glory years ended the show on a far more intriguing note.

I watched through to XIII, but I'll hold off on re-posting those.

To echo my thoughts on IX, it's a show that has a lot going for it, but the direction of the show was incredibly weak. Hardly anything was resolved, which made Hogan winning the belt more palatable because at least it was something. '93 in particular is a fun period to play around with since you have Raw and the WWF is trying to figure out how to survive post-Hulkamania.

Dec 6, 2020 14:06:52 GMT 🤯 said:

Resuming WrestleMania IX after intermission...

Still no good matches so far, and stand by thinking each needed 3-5 minutes trimmed.

Perfect/Lex was a mess. Perfect, Lex, Razor, Tatanka, Shawn, Taker, Bret, Yoko, and Steiners all needed to be used and featured better IMO if this shoe's purpose was to establish the New Generation. I'll drop rebook ideas once the show wraps.

Meanwhile, Giant Gonzalez's ring gear is the most hilariously disturbing attire in wrestling history. Actually it's 1b. The only thing that tops it is Naked Mideon' s fanny pack.

Pro's pro Hennig forgot the layout of the match leaving Lex to lead, hence the schmoz. Yeah, a bad show all around.

Excellent takes Pete, thoughts on Wrestlemania VIII?

Updating!

Nov 27, 2020 2:34:57 GMT 🤯 said:

Updating!

Nov 14, 2020 14:02:01 GMT 🤯 said:

Updating!

1. WrestleMania 3
2. WrestleMania 7
3. WrestleMania 6
4. WrestleMania 5
5. WrestleMania 4
6. WrestleMania 1
7. WrestleMania 2

WM7 is perhaps the most underrated/underappreciated because of how weak on paper the main event seems, the tanking business resulting in a shift from the Coliseum to the Sports Arena, and lack of tact perhaps for trying to still milk Desert Storm after it was well done and over.

But the main event was awesome in reality, and IMO at least on par with Savage/DiBiase, Hogan/Bundy, and Hogan/Savage in the ring. It doesn't have the celebrity factor of WM1's main event, and I doubt anything can readily recapture the titanic magnitude of Hogan/André or Hogan/Warrior so that shouldn't be held against this.

Sarge is bumping and wrestling way better than I expected at his seeming age. The crimson mask and some of the spots, and even lesser nuances like Hogan needing a rope break make this a perfectly great main event. The crowd being pumped up in a pro-USA frenzy gives this an added boost.

And thinking on it, I like how Hogan has worked entirely different opponents/stories for his Mania arc.

- WM1 he tags with his celeb pal to put a pair of pesky cocky playground bullies in their place.

- WM2 he plays the injured underdog to overcome a monster in a monstrous environment.

- WM3 he deals with betrayal and doubt on every level as he must clash with the one entity perhaps bigger than Hulkamania.

- WM4 we see him in wild revenge mode, getting himself disqualified to take out now mortal enemy André. Then we get to see how he adjusts to stepping aside and playing cornerman for a new buddy.

- WM5 he deals with betrayal again, but this time in a match against a smaller and more agile opponent. The champion vs. challenger dynamic is also officially reversed this time around.

- WM6 is an epic clash of face titans. I'd argue this was way more of an irresistible force (Warrior) meets immovable object (Hogan) story than Hogan/André. Or at the very least a reversal of force and object roles for Hogan.

- WM7 is really the first time IMO where it's a pure good vs. evil affair, with a much more nefarious villain that everyone's collectively rooting for Hogan to defeat. All previous Manias, you could potentially easily argue Hogan's opponents had points of views that made sense on some level and so his opponents could rightly still have the fans' respect. Not really so with an American turncoat still supporting a defeated dictator.

Anyway... WM7 is supported by an excellent undercard requiring relatively few rebook alterations if you were to really hard-press me on it. Bulldog/Warlord, Rockers/Faces of Fear, Foundation/Nastys, and Undertaker's debut... All super solid. Dibiase/Virgil, Bossman/Perfect, and especially Warrior/Savage with the post-match truly buoys the show beyond doubt. Overall good shit, pal!

1. WrestleMania 3
2. WrestleMania 8
3. WrestleMania 7
4. WrestleMania 6
5. WrestleMania 5
6. WrestleMania 4
7. WrestleMania 1
8. WrestleMania 2

WrestleMania VIII with just a clean finish to Hogan/Sid and no other tweaks eeks really close to WrestleMania III level perfection IMO.

That botched DQ finish though really leaves a sour taste, and I find myself struggling with whether I overrate the show in spite of it or underrate the show because of it.

It's definitely buoyed by an incredibly strong undercard as we start the transition to the New Generation.

Unlike WMIII though, I can totally get behind the rebooked versions of WMVIII. But I'm surprised how much I loved Sid as the Hogan opponent here. It's a damn shame Sid wasn't sticking around. Can you imagine him killing off Hogan with three powerbombs here?! Then killing off Warrior at SummerSlam, then Savage at Survivor Series to become world champ? Then maybe Flair turns face to face Sid at the Rumble, only to be killed off too.

Sid has now torn through every major star of the late 80s and early 90s. Set him up as the big bad for Bret to dethrone at WrestleMania IX for Bret's first world title win. Fuck me... Sid was the best, and could've been so much more.

1. WrestleMania 3
2. WrestleMania 8
3. WrestleMania 7
4. WrestleMania 6
5. WrestleMania 5
6. WrestleMania 4
7. WrestleMania 1
8. WrestleMania 2
9. WrestleMania 9

WM9:
So so so bad. Light on matches from a quantity perspective, and yet every match went 3-5 minutes too long save perhaps the world title matches. The venue felt small and like a parking lot show on steroids. And the entire event occurring while the sun was still up made it seem more like a way to pass an afternoon vs. the event of the evening to make a night out of. The match pairings and finish bookings were terrible. The crowd, small as it was, really wasn't all that into it. The total lack of celebrity involvement really stood out. The shitty new commentary team was not clicking.

Overall, it felt like a show trying to buy time and build to the next. No idea if they knew in real life by this point that they were doing a June PPV or, if they did, if they knew it was just gonna be the King of the Ring. But between the shit finishes and the stuff built to on this show, it really felt like they were trying to set a future show up versus make this a great WrestleMania.

Lex knocking Bret out a brunch, then Shawn attacking perfect backstage seemed to set up Bret/Luger and Shawn/Perfect at KOTR while Yoko would surely get his Rematch against Hogan and Taker his against Gonzalez. Then maybe we'd get Perfect/Lex II and Hogan/Hart at SummerSlam. Shrinkers/Steiners was purely about who would actually take the titles off Money, Inc. And guys like Tatanka and Razor who should've been put over strong and definitively.

All in all, WMIX is the first WrestleMania BEGGING to be rebooked... Potentially even from top to bottom.

Dec 6, 2020 19:09:24 GMT Shootist said:

Dec 6, 2020 14:06:52 GMT 🤯 said:

Resuming WrestleMania IX after intermission...

Still no good matches so far, and stand by thinking each needed 3-5 minutes trimmed.

Perfect/Lex was a mess. Perfect, Lex, Razor, Tatanka, Shawn, Taker, Bret, Yoko, and Steiners all needed to be used and featured better IMO if this shoe's purpose was to establish the New Generation. I'll drop rebook ideas once the show wraps.

Meanwhile, Giant Gonzalez's ring gear is the most hilariously disturbing attire in wrestling history. Actually it's 1b. The only thing that tops it is Naked Mideon' s fanny pack.

Pro's pro Hennig forgot the layout of the match leaving Lex to lead, hence the schmoz. Yeah, a bad show all around.

Excellent takes Pete, thoughts on Wrestlemania VIII?

The transistional Wrestlemania with two of the greatest Wrestlemania matches of all-time in Piper/Bret and Savage/Flair. Bret, Shawn, Taker, Tatanka and even Owen pick up some impressive wins and the Hogan/Sid match up had a similar build. That match should have been bigger than it was, but there was so much going on behind the scenes the surprise Warrior return was a nice out and continued the theme. It's been years since I've last watched it, so it's due for a revisit but on first watch it was one of my favourite Wrestlemanias.