Jesus, this WrestleMania is a train wreck.

Dec 22, 2020 14:37:20 GMT 🤯 said:

Jesus, this WrestleMania is a train wreck.

Somebody just hit the bowling shoe ugly Head Cheese match.

Dec 22, 2020 14:40:12 GMT Big Pete said:

Dec 22, 2020 14:37:20 GMT 🤯 said:

Jesus, this WrestleMania is a train wreck.

Somebody just hit the bowling shoe ugly Head Cheese match.

You nailed it.

Considering how red hot the product supposedly still was, so far no one is getting any reaction whatsoever aside from the Tazz pop toward the end of the botched Hardcore Battle Royal.

Why does Chester have butt cheek cut-outs in his cheese costume?!

Pretty sure WWE Network just blurred out Miss Kitty nipples that real time viewers got to see. No fair!

Speaking of highs, the triangle ladder match is probably it for WM16. But also can't help feeling like it was as harmful to wrestling (certainly tag team wrestling) as KOTR1998 was.

And we go from a good train wreck in the proto TLC back to the bad train wreck that is this WrestleMania...

The only thing that could've saved this Kat Fight was tits. And we didn't even get a single one!

Feels like The Worm might be the most over thing on WrestleMania 16 so far.

Cigarette Bridget, the definition of WWF fan trash.

Maintain that the hardcore triple threat at WM15 was better than the Eurocontinental triple Threat at WM16. Not counting this among the "highs".

Kurt, as prodigious as he is, is too new to the business at this point to ring general such a convoluted match setup. Jericho isn't talented enough. And Benoit is too new to the company and WWF style.

I like to this of this as WrestleMania 16's double co-main event featuring the 1-2-3 Kid and "The REAL Double J" Jesse James versus "Make a Difference" Fatu and "Fake" Diesel.

Would they have been better served to just have the Radical Degenerates (X-Pac, Road Dogg, Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko & Perry Saturn) (w/ Tori) vs. Too Cool (Rikishi, Scotty 2 Hotty & Grand Master Sexay), Chyna, and Kane (w/ Paul Bearer) in a ten person tag elimination match squash?

Chyna pins Eddie, Scotty & Sexay eliminate the Other Radicalz, Kane pins X-Pac, Rikishi pins Road Dogg... Then get all your post-match gaga in with one fell swoop?

A thought just occurred to me...

With no one-on-one matches aside from the Kat Fight, was WrestleMania 16 the pilot project to see if WrestleMania as a brand or entity unto itself would draw regardless of singles stars being pushed to top billing?

Mick missing the top rope elbow through the table because he's a retired lard ass, lol.

Then HHH hitting two panicked elbows off the guardrail to break the strongest announce table in the world.

WMX7, not surprisingly, off to a solid start. Expecting this to live up to the memories and supplant WM3 as #1.

The off the stage finish isn't as awesome as I remember from first time real time viewing, but Kane/Raven/Big Show still holds up overall and edges out Hardcore Holly/Billy Gunn/Al Snow after all.

Heyman is the best WrestleMania color commentator since Ventura.

Do I hesitate to rank Angle/Benoit super high in my top WrestleMania matches of all time considering it was pretty inconsequential as far as card placement and stakes?

NOPE!

Man, WMX7 is practically perfection. Can you imagine if the main event had had a finish everyone was OK with? Man... 11 outta 10 then.

X7 best mania and arguably best show ever.

Dec 19, 2020 14:49:24 GMT 🤯 said:

When did DDTs become transition moves?

Fans were chanting for a DDT as a killshot at WrestleMania XII.

By WrestleMania XIII, Mankind virtually no sells one from Owen Hart. And the commentary team barely addresses it.

I have a feeling the DDT died long before WM13 though?

I feel like there must have been DDTs as transition moves in the WWF between Jake leaving in 1992 and returning in 1996. I can't think of any specific use however. But Jake's DDT was always going to be treated and accepted by fans as a finisher. It is sort of like when Owen Tombstoned Bret at Mania X and didn't even go for the pin. Taker's Tombstone was still an instant, guaranteed win.

Dec 19, 2020 20:34:31 GMT 🤯 said:

WM12 really exposed how anemic the WWF was for talent and fan buzz in late 95/early 96. I almost wonder if they booked the Iron Man out of necessity?

While the venue was a big improvement over WM11, the fans just didn't seem all that into this show. There were a few big pops at points in the Iron Man, some lesser pops for Piper and Warrior, minor heat for Camp Cornette, and pin drop silence for pretty much everything else.

I can't remember when they decided to go for the Iron Man. But it definitely hurt, in terms of star power, that Sid was gone from early Jan to late June and that neither Razor or Kid were on the show. After Kid cost Razor the IC Title to Goldust at the Rumble, they blew off Razor/Kid in the Crybaby Match at IYH 6 as they were gonna run Razor/Goldust at Mania before Razor decided he didn't like doing the homoerotic stuff. If you get Razor/Kid Crybaby in addition to Piper/Goldust Backlot Brawl, that immediately helps the card out.

The Gunns had to vacate the Tag Titles in Feb due to Billy getting injured. They could have had Owen/Bulldog win the tournament final at Mania. Instead they lost the semi to the Godwinns, who then lost the final to the Bodydonnas on the Mania pre-show.

It also hurt that Jarrett, who was in a feud with Ahmed, left in Feb. If he can be convinced to stay, that adds another name and built feud.

Jake just needs a simple match on the show. Tatanka finished up 3 weeks before Mania. You could offer him the Mania payday and delay their IYH 6 match to Mania. Jake kills off a name.

I still think Bret/HBK would've been a lot better if it was 25 mins.

Bret(c) vs. HBK - WWF Title NOT IRON MAN
Taker vs. Diesel
Warrior's return vs. HHH
Piper vs. Goldust - Hollywood Backlot Brawl
Razor vs. Kid - Crybaby
Vader vs. Yoko
Owen/Davey vs. Godwinns - Tag Title Tournament Final
Ahmed vs. Jarrett
Jake vs. Tatanka
Austin vs. Savio

There's a 10-match card that could've been.

In regards to the crowd, the California crowds never seemed hot. You saw that again at Mania 2000. It felt like a negative they put up with to go into that major market.

Dec 19, 2020 20:34:31 GMT 🤯 said:

WM13 and Taker/Sid specifically are HIGHLY underrated and under-appreciated

The Submission match does go a long way to papering over the worse parts and I am so glad we got it over Bret/Shawn, which did not need to happen story-wise yet. Bret/Austin II was definitely the hot feud that they were going away from just because Bret had been promised the Shawn rematch. But it does not feel like Taker vs. Sid and Owen/Davey vs. Mankind/Vader was the best use of those guys. Certainly not when Owen vs. Davey and Mankind vs. Vader were real possibilities. With HBK gone, it needs to be Taker vs. Sid really, which is fine enough.

Dec 21, 2020 15:41:57 GMT 🤯 said:

Holy shit was Sable over.

#1b to Stone Cold's #1a.

She was crazy over, but 1b is an exaggeration. She is a very interesting person in wrestling history, definitely, and was one of the very top stars in 1998. She would not have been anywhere near as over in any other era. I guess she did have some small amount of charisma, when she was not moving and not talking, but as soon as she opened her mouth or was dancing, she was actively hurting herself and her overness. But she had a great body and was happy to show it off, in an era where she was allowed to and it was new. She didn't have the charm of Elizabeth or the talent of Sunny, but she could wear almost nothing well. It is incredible, but at the same time understandable when you think about it, how small time she felt by the time of her 2003 return. We'd seen years of tidier birds wearing almost nothing and she had nothing else going for her.

Dec 21, 2020 16:02:09 GMT 🤯 said:

Only complaint about WM14 so far is the fuck finish to the IC title match.

They should've just let Shamrock get the belt, spare him some of that Lex Luger choke artist stink. Defends against the returning Double J at Unforgiven since Double J was involved with ring introductions and was a former IC champ. Then maybe drop it to a heel Owen or face HHH at some point in the early summer?

Meanwhile, free up Rock to beat Faarooq at Unforgiven before continuing his ascent up the card to the world title. Rock beats Faarooq then moves into a heel Nation vs. face DX program. Costs HHH the European title to D'Lo, but HHH just picks up the IC title as a make good. Then SummerSlam is just HHH defending instead of challenging in the ladder match.

It is arguably the most watchable Mania. Everything feels meaningful in some way, even the nothing Taka match against a man who would never be seen again feels so different for the WWF and has JR putting over the risks of the high spots. Great video packages because they knew they'd have a lot of new viewers with the attention Tyson was bringing in.

I don't know if they should've put the belt on Shamrock, but the way they had Rocky retain did hurt him. Could they have just had D'Lo, Kama and Henry interfere for the DQ, have Shamrock destroy them, then put Rock in the Ankle Lock, then do the Faarooq doesn't save spot. Basically the same outcome, except Ken doesn't cost himself the title and look like the "he's snapped" goof.

Dec 21, 2020 20:54:12 GMT 🤯 said:

Man, knowing what we know now about CTE, watching that KO blow to Bart Gunn is sickening. Maybe one of the nastiest bumps between KOTR98 and Droz earning his wheels.

As irresponsible as the Brawl for All was as a whole, sticking Bart Gunn in a shoot with a legit boxer known for knocking the fuck out of people was ridiculous.

Dec 21, 2020 21:48:57 GMT 🤯 said:

Road Dogg definitely the most over member of DC 2.0

Haters gonna hate

I'm still pretty convinced Triple H, in an individual sense, was the least over member of face DX in 1998-99. Well, maybe second least after Billy Gunn, who was really leeching off the overness of Dogg's shtick. I don't think anyone should have been surprised that Mr. Ass failed as a solo act, even if we understand why they did it due to the size and look you mentioned.

Dec 21, 2020 22:38:38 GMT 🤯 said:

What did we decide a few years back? Did official spelling change from Big Boss Man to Big Bossman when he returned in 1998?

Fairly sure this is it. Only ever saw it written Big Boss Man in his initial run and his screen graphic said Bossman at Survivor Series 1998 just after he returned.

Dec 22, 2020 13:00:54 GMT 🤯 said:

And resuming WrestleMania WatchThru with a question...

Did KOTR1998 do more to help or harm subsequent Hell in a Call matches?

Watching Taker/Bossman, and thinking of Todd (?)'s post in the Problems with WWE thread, pretty sure KOTR1998 hurt a lot of thing a lot more long term than just Foley.

Absolutely more harm than help. It all started with the first match. With the roof added, the kayfabe idea was to make sure nobody can get involved. But instead they wanted to use the roof, since they had it. So Foley had his reasons (felt he sucked in cages, Taker was hurt, had such a great match to try to live up to, didn't think fans would care about another Taker/Foley match) to allow himself to be convinced by Funk to start up top.

I remember watching the No Way Out 2000 match as a 12-year-old and being disappointed by Foley's announce table bump because it wasn't off the top and really spent the whole match waiting for the two bumps we all expected. I wasn't watching that match wanting Foley to rip H's throat out, when story-wise that is what you should have been wanting really. That is definitely a negative impact.

The next Cell was the 6-Man, where they felt obligated to have a big bump because of the previous 2 matches. But obviously none of the big boys (Austin, Rock, Trips, Taker or Angle) were taking that bump. Instead you had Kishi taken arguably the most convolutedly set-up bump in history that was so eye-roll worthy in its set-up that they'd have been better off not doing it.

Then HHH/Jericho felt obliged to go up top for their match finish as well.

It was the next match where Brock and Taker decided to have a Cell match more in the vein of how it probably should've always been from the start. A violent cage match brawl, just with more room to play in.

Dec 22, 2020 13:09:02 GMT 🤯 said:

I mean, aside from being a very powerful visual thrown away on a nothing rivalry, I don't think the hanging of Bossman came off as bad as everyone remembers.

Then again, I guess the racial undertones of lynching someone as well as Bossman just returning to RAW like nothing happened really don't work in such a powerful visual's favor.

It is quite amazing that it didn't. Just a stupendously ludicrous decision to make. A man is being hanged, which should mean his death, while Cole shouts "Is it symbolic, King?" (I imagine this was a fed line from Vince to try to cover their arses if people complained they'd killed a man; "well, we made sure people knew it was symbolic, not literal") and then the lights just go out and he segues to the build for the man as if nothing out of the ordinary was happening.

Dec 22, 2020 14:05:05 GMT 🤯 said:

Poor Tazz. I get that Vince, HHH, and Austin were never gonna let him be anything like what he was in ECW, at least not at a main event level, but Tazz should've at least been murdering his way through the Hardcore Division with suplexes and chokeholds in 2000.

After the inconclusive, was it a choke finish to the Rumble match, Mania felt set for the Tazz/Angle rematch.

Dec 22, 2020 15:28:49 GMT 🤯 said:

Why does Chester have butt cheek cut-outs in his cheese costume?!

Arses, cutting the cheese?, who knows. It is one of the more bizarre things they ever did. It feels like a throwaway RAW segment. Have Snow embarrass Blackman with some weird gimmick.

Dec 22, 2020 15:30:35 GMT 🤯 said:

Pretty sure WWE Network just blurred out Miss Kitty nipples that real time viewers got to see. No fair!

I don't remember them being seen live. The WWF got shit over here for having the Mae Young fake tits at the Rumble because terrestrial broadcaster got that PPV away from Sky. Even though Mania was on Sky, a subscription service, they were probably more careful from that point on. The only actual nudity I can think of in the WWF was Jackie at the UK PPV Capitol Carnage 1998 and Kitty at Armageddon 1999. Sable's handprints and Mae's prosthetics don't count.

Dec 22, 2020 16:00:46 GMT 🤯 said:

Speaking of highs, the triangle ladder match is probably it for WM16. But also can't help feeling like it was as harmful to wrestling (certainly tag team wrestling) as KOTR1998 was.

Do you blame the Mania triangle or do you blame the No Mercy ladder tag? The latter still felt like two teams trying to get the belts and using the ladders to hurt each other. Even some of the set-up spots felt quite organic. The table match at Rumble 2000 still holds up well for me because so many tables get broken with guys trying offence moves and flying through them. Mania 2000 may have been the first match with some spots feeling obviously set up. So maybe Mania 2000 was the beginning of one of the worst things in wrestling today - the building of structures and setting up of spots in a match where you should be trying to cave your opponent's face in.

Dec 22, 2020 16:39:59 GMT 🤯 said:

Maintain that the hardcore triple threat at WM15 was better than the Eurocontinental triple Threat at WM16. Not counting this among the "highs".

Kurt, as prodigious as he is, is too new to the business at this point to ring general such a convoluted match setup. Jericho isn't talented enough. And Benoit is too new to the company and WWF style.

The Eurocontinental match is one of the most overrated matches in Mania history. You do sometimes find it down the bottom of lists and I don't get it. I think people rate it based on the participants and what they feel the match should or could have been.

Dec 22, 2020 17:04:58 GMT 🤯 said:

Would they have been better served to just have the Radical Degenerates (X-Pac, Road Dogg, Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko & Perry Saturn) (w/ Tori) vs. Too Cool (Rikishi, Scotty 2 Hotty & Grand Master Sexay), Chyna, and Kane (w/ Paul Bearer) in a ten person tag elimination match squash?

Chyna pins Eddie, Scotty & Sexay eliminate the Other Radicalz, Kane pins X-Pac, Rikishi pins Road Dogg... Then get all your post-match gaga in with one fell swoop?

Kane/Pac should've had their blowoff at Mania. Weird feud in terms of the matches. Pac turned on Kane in late Oct, Survivor Series match ended in a DQ with HHH and Tori running in. Then they went straight to the cage match for Armageddon, which feels too soon but also cage matches did start to mean not much in the Fed post-Cell introduction. Pac eliminated Kane from the Rumble. Then Tori turned on Kane. Kane left and returned with Bearer. Pac beat Kane in a No Holds Barred match (you'd think this would come before the cage match) at No Way Out and surely Kane winning some big blowoff gimmick at Mania was in order? Instead it was a weird throwaway tag with Kishi as Kane's partner against Pac/Dogg. Show/Kishi could've been a fun enough monster spectacle if planned right.

Austin not being ready for Mania making them hold off on Rock/HHH does really hurt the show. Although I'm glad that Backlash match wasn't in front of that California crowd.

Rock vs. HHH with Austin return - WWF Title
Kane vs. Pac - some big gimmick
Jericho vs. Benoit - IC Title
Show vs. Kish
Chyna/Too Cool vs. Radicalz
E&C vs. Hardyz vs. Dudleyz - Ladder Tag Title
Tazz vs. Angle - Euro Title
Crash vs. Holly - Hardcore Title*

*24 hr rule suspended for the day until match end, then can have shenanigans after throughout the show

That's a good basis for the card. Dogg gets fucked over because Billy got hurt. Can fill it out with some titties and other stuff. Without Austin's return, could they have just run the singles with Vince turn? Probably.

Dec 22, 2020 17:27:19 GMT 🤯 said:

A thought just occurred to me...

With no one-on-one matches aside from the Kat Fight, was WrestleMania 16 the pilot project to see if WrestleMania as a brand or entity unto itself would draw regardless of singles stars being pushed to top billing?

I would be surprised if there was a concerted effort to have no one-on-one matches. It was just all sorts of factors. Their Rock/HHH plan was scuppered as Austin wasn't ready, so they decided to go multi-man. Hardyz, E&C and Dudleyz were becoming a three-way feud. The Hardcore Division was designed to be a multi-man mess at the time. Gunn got injured, leaving Dogg without much on. Plus, they liked getting people their Mania paydays, so shoving them into tags gets them on the show. It just feels coincidental that it happened.

Dec 22, 2020 22:23:23 GMT Strobe said:

Dec 19, 2020 14:49:24 GMT 🤯 said:

When did DDTs become transition moves?

Fans were chanting for a DDT as a killshot at WrestleMania XII.

By WrestleMania XIII, Mankind virtually no sells one from Owen Hart. And the commentary team barely addresses it.

I have a feeling the DDT died long before WM13 though?

I feel like there must have been DDTs as transition moves in the WWF between Jake leaving in 1992 and returning in 1996. I can't think of any specific use however. But Jake's DDT was always going to be treated and accepted by fans as a finisher. It is sort of like when Owen Tombstoned Bret at Mania X and didn't even go for the pin. Taker's Tombstone was still an instant, guaranteed win.

Dec 19, 2020 20:34:31 GMT 🤯 said:

WM12 really exposed how anemic the WWF was for talent and fan buzz in late 95/early 96. I almost wonder if they booked the Iron Man out of necessity?

While the venue was a big improvement over WM11, the fans just didn't seem all that into this show. There were a few big pops at points in the Iron Man, some lesser pops for Piper and Warrior, minor heat for Camp Cornette, and pin drop silence for pretty much everything else.

I can't remember when they decided to go for the Iron Man. But it definitely hurt, in terms of star power, that Sid was gone from early Jan to late June and that neither Razor or Kid were on the show. After Kid cost Razor the IC Title to Goldust at the Rumble, they blew off Razor/Kid in the Crybaby Match at IYH 6 as they were gonna run Razor/Goldust at Mania before Razor decided he didn't like doing the homoerotic stuff. If you get Razor/Kid Crybaby in addition to Piper/Goldust Backlot Brawl, that immediately helps the card out.

The Gunns had to vacate the Tag Titles in Feb due to Billy getting injured. They could have had Owen/Bulldog win the tournament final at Mania. Instead they lost the semi to the Godwinns, who then lost the final to the Bodydonnas on the Mania pre-show.

It also hurt that Jarrett, who was in a feud with Ahmed, left in Feb. If he can be convinced to stay, that adds another name and built feud.

Jake just needs a simple match on the show. Tatanka finished up 3 weeks before Mania. You could offer him the Mania payday and delay their IYH 6 match to Mania. Jake kills off a name.

I still think Bret/HBK would've been a lot better if it was 25 mins.

Bret(c) vs. HBK - WWF Title NOT IRON MAN
Taker vs. Diesel
Warrior's return vs. HHH
Piper vs. Goldust - Hollywood Backlot Brawl
Razor vs. Kid - Crybaby
Vader vs. Yoko
Owen/Davey vs. Godwinns - Tag Title Tournament Final
Ahmed vs. Jarrett
Jake vs. Tatanka
Austin vs. Savio

There's a 10-match card that could've been.

In regards to the crowd, the California crowds never seemed hot. You saw that again at Mania 2000. It felt like a negative they put up with to go into that major market.

Dec 19, 2020 20:34:31 GMT 🤯 said:

WM13 and Taker/Sid specifically are HIGHLY underrated and under-appreciated

The Submission match does go a long way to papering over the worse parts and I am so glad we got it over Bret/Shawn, which did not need to happen story-wise yet. Bret/Austin II was definitely the hot feud that they were going away from just because Bret had been promised the Shawn rematch. But it does not feel like Taker vs. Sid and Owen/Davey vs. Mankind/Vader was the best use of those guys. Certainly not when Owen vs. Davey and Mankind vs. Vader were real possibilities. With HBK gone, it needs to be Taker vs. Sid really, which is fine enough.

Dec 21, 2020 15:41:57 GMT 🤯 said:

Holy shit was Sable over.

#1b to Stone Cold's #1a.

She was crazy over, but 1b is an exaggeration. She is a very interesting person in wrestling history, definitely, and was one of the very top stars in 1998. She would not have been anywhere near as over in any other era. I guess she did have some small amount of charisma, when she was not moving and not talking, but as soon as she opened her mouth or was dancing, she was actively hurting herself and her overness. But she had a great body and was happy to show it off, in an era where she was allowed to and it was new. She didn't have the charm of Elizabeth or the talent of Sunny, but she could wear almost nothing well. It is incredible, but at the same time understandable when you think about it, how small time she felt by the time of her 2003 return. We'd seen years of tidier birds wearing almost nothing and she had nothing else going for her.

Dec 21, 2020 16:02:09 GMT 🤯 said:

Only complaint about WM14 so far is the fuck finish to the IC title match.

They should've just let Shamrock get the belt, spare him some of that Lex Luger choke artist stink. Defends against the returning Double J at Unforgiven since Double J was involved with ring introductions and was a former IC champ. Then maybe drop it to a heel Owen or face HHH at some point in the early summer?

Meanwhile, free up Rock to beat Faarooq at Unforgiven before continuing his ascent up the card to the world title. Rock beats Faarooq then moves into a heel Nation vs. face DX program. Costs HHH the European title to D'Lo, but HHH just picks up the IC title as a make good. Then SummerSlam is just HHH defending instead of challenging in the ladder match.

It is arguably the most watchable Mania. Everything feels meaningful in some way, even the nothing Taka match against a man who would never be seen again feels so different for the WWF and has JR putting over the risks of the high spots. Great video packages because they knew they'd have a lot of new viewers with the attention Tyson was bringing in.

I don't know if they should've put the belt on Shamrock, but the way they had Rocky retain did hurt him. Could they have just had D'Lo, Kama and Henry interfere for the DQ, have Shamrock destroy them, then put Rock in the Ankle Lock, then do the Faarooq doesn't save spot. Basically the same outcome, except Ken doesn't cost himself the title and look like the "he's snapped" goof.

Dec 21, 2020 20:54:12 GMT 🤯 said:

Man, knowing what we know now about CTE, watching that KO blow to Bart Gunn is sickening. Maybe one of the nastiest bumps between KOTR98 and Droz earning his wheels.

As irresponsible as the Brawl for All was as a whole, sticking Bart Gunn in a shoot with a legit boxer known for knocking the fuck out of people was ridiculous.

Dec 21, 2020 21:48:57 GMT 🤯 said:

Road Dogg definitely the most over member of DC 2.0

Haters gonna hate

I'm still pretty convinced Triple H, in an individual sense, was the least over member of face DX in 1998-99. Well, maybe second least after Billy Gunn, who was really leeching off the overness of Dogg's shtick. I don't think anyone should have been surprised that Mr. Ass failed as a solo act, even if we understand why they did it due to the size and look you mentioned.

Dec 21, 2020 22:38:38 GMT 🤯 said:

What did we decide a few years back? Did official spelling change from Big Boss Man to Big Bossman when he returned in 1998?

Fairly sure this is it. Only ever saw it written Big Boss Man in his initial run and his screen graphic said Bossman at Survivor Series 1998 just after he returned.

Dec 22, 2020 13:00:54 GMT 🤯 said:

And resuming WrestleMania WatchThru with a question...

Did KOTR1998 do more to help or harm subsequent Hell in a Call matches?

Watching Taker/Bossman, and thinking of Todd (?)'s post in the Problems with WWE thread, pretty sure KOTR1998 hurt a lot of thing a lot more long term than just Foley.

Absolutely more harm than help. It all started with the first match. With the roof added, the kayfabe idea was to make sure nobody can get involved. But instead they wanted to use the roof, since they had it. So Foley had his reasons (felt he sucked in cages, Taker was hurt, had such a great match to try to live up to, didn't think fans would care about another Taker/Foley match) to allow himself to be convinced by Funk to start up top.

I remember watching the No Way Out 2000 match as a 12-year-old and being disappointed by Foley's announce table bump because it wasn't off the top and really spent the whole match waiting for the two bumps we all expected. I wasn't watching that match wanting Foley to rip H's throat out, when story-wise that is what you should have been wanting really. That is definitely a negative impact.

The next Cell was the 6-Man, where they felt obligated to have a big bump because of the previous 2 matches. But obviously none of the big boys (Austin, Rock, Trips, Taker or Angle) were taking that bump. Instead you had Kishi taken arguably the most convolutedly set-up bump in history that was so eye-roll worthy in its set-up that they'd have been better off not doing it.

Then HHH/Jericho felt obliged to go up top for their match finish as well.

It was the next match where Brock and Taker decided to have a Cell match more in the vein of how it probably should've always been from the start. A violent cage match brawl, just with more room to play in.

Dec 22, 2020 13:09:02 GMT 🤯 said:

I mean, aside from being a very powerful visual thrown away on a nothing rivalry, I don't think the hanging of Bossman came off as bad as everyone remembers.

Then again, I guess the racial undertones of lynching someone as well as Bossman just returning to RAW like nothing happened really don't work in such a powerful visual's favor.

It is quite amazing that it didn't. Just a stupendously ludicrous decision to make. A man is being hanged, which should mean his death, while Cole shouts "Is it symbolic, King?" (I imagine this was a fed line from Vince to try to cover their arses if people complained they'd killed a man; "well, we made sure people knew it was symbolic, not literal") and then the lights just go out and he segues to the build for the man as if nothing out of the ordinary was happening.

Dec 22, 2020 14:05:05 GMT 🤯 said:

Poor Tazz. I get that Vince, HHH, and Austin were never gonna let him be anything like what he was in ECW, at least not at a main event level, but Tazz should've at least been murdering his way through the Hardcore Division with suplexes and chokeholds in 2000.

After the inconclusive, was it a choke finish to the Rumble match, Mania felt set for the Tazz/Angle rematch.

Dec 22, 2020 15:28:49 GMT 🤯 said:

Why does Chester have butt cheek cut-outs in his cheese costume?!

Arses, cutting the cheese?, who knows. It is one of the more bizarre things they ever did. It feels like a throwaway RAW segment. Have Snow embarrass Blackman with some weird gimmick.

Dec 22, 2020 15:30:35 GMT 🤯 said:

Pretty sure WWE Network just blurred out Miss Kitty nipples that real time viewers got to see. No fair!

I don't remember them being seen live. The WWF got shit over here for having the Mae Young fake tits at the Rumble because terrestrial broadcaster got that PPV away from Sky. Even though Mania was on Sky, a subscription service, they were probably more careful from that point on. The only actual nudity I can think of in the WWF was Jackie at the UK PPV Capitol Carnage 1998 and Kitty at Armageddon 1999. Sable's handprints and Mae's prosthetics don't count.

Dec 22, 2020 16:00:46 GMT 🤯 said:

Speaking of highs, the triangle ladder match is probably it for WM16. But also can't help feeling like it was as harmful to wrestling (certainly tag team wrestling) as KOTR1998 was.

Do you blame the Mania triangle or do you blame the No Mercy ladder tag? The latter still felt like two teams trying to get the belts and using the ladders to hurt each other. Even some of the set-up spots felt quite organic. The table match at Rumble 2000 still holds up well for me because so many tables get broken with guys trying offence moves and flying through them. Mania 2000 may have been the first match with some spots feeling obviously set up. So maybe Mania 2000 was the beginning of one of the worst things in wrestling today - the building of structures and setting up of spots in a match where you should be trying to cave your opponent's face in.

Dec 22, 2020 16:39:59 GMT 🤯 said:

Maintain that the hardcore triple threat at WM15 was better than the Eurocontinental triple Threat at WM16. Not counting this among the "highs".

Kurt, as prodigious as he is, is too new to the business at this point to ring general such a convoluted match setup. Jericho isn't talented enough. And Benoit is too new to the company and WWF style.

The Eurocontinental match is one of the most overrated matches in Mania history. You do sometimes find it down the bottom of lists and I don't get it. I think people rate it based on the participants and what they feel the match should or could have been.

Dec 22, 2020 17:04:58 GMT 🤯 said:

Would they have been better served to just have the Radical Degenerates (X-Pac, Road Dogg, Eddie Guerrero, Dean Malenko & Perry Saturn) (w/ Tori) vs. Too Cool (Rikishi, Scotty 2 Hotty & Grand Master Sexay), Chyna, and Kane (w/ Paul Bearer) in a ten person tag elimination match squash?

Chyna pins Eddie, Scotty & Sexay eliminate the Other Radicalz, Kane pins X-Pac, Rikishi pins Road Dogg... Then get all your post-match gaga in with one fell swoop?

Kane/Pac should've had their blowoff at Mania. Weird feud in terms of the matches. Pac turned on Kane in late Oct, Survivor Series match ended in a DQ with HHH and Tori running in. Then they went straight to the cage match for Armageddon, which feels too soon but also cage matches did start to mean not much in the Fed post-Cell introduction. Pac eliminated Kane from the Rumble. Then Tori turned on Kane. Kane left and returned with Bearer. Pac beat Kane in a No Holds Barred match (you'd think this would come before the cage match) at No Way Out and surely Kane winning some big blowoff gimmick at Mania was in order? Instead it was a weird throwaway tag with Kishi as Kane's partner against Pac/Dogg. Show/Kishi could've been a fun enough monster spectacle if planned right.

Austin not being ready for Mania making them hold off on Rock/HHH does really hurt the show. Although I'm glad that Backlash match wasn't in front of that California crowd.

Rock vs. HHH with Austin return - WWF Title
Kane vs. Pac - some big gimmick
Jericho vs. Benoit - IC Title
Show vs. Kish
Chyna/Too Cool vs. Radicalz
E&C vs. Hardyz vs. Dudleyz - Ladder Tag Title
Tazz vs. Angle - Euro Title
Crash vs. Holly - Hardcore Title*

*24 hr rule suspended for the day until match end, then can have shenanigans after throughout the show

That's a good basis for the card. Dogg gets fucked over because Billy got hurt. Can fill it out with some titties and other stuff. Without Austin's return, could they have just run the singles with Vince turn? Probably.

Dec 22, 2020 17:27:19 GMT 🤯 said:

A thought just occurred to me...

With no one-on-one matches aside from the Kat Fight, was WrestleMania 16 the pilot project to see if WrestleMania as a brand or entity unto itself would draw regardless of singles stars being pushed to top billing?

I would be surprised if there was a concerted effort to have no one-on-one matches. It was just all sorts of factors. Their Rock/HHH plan was scuppered as Austin wasn't ready, so they decided to go multi-man. Hardyz, E&C and Dudleyz were becoming a three-way feud. The Hardcore Division was designed to be a multi-man mess at the time. Gunn got injured, leaving Dogg without much on. Plus, they liked getting people their Mania paydays, so shoving them into tags gets them on the show. It just feels coincidental that it happened.

So that was the real reason to bump it to Backlash? Always read people say the buyrate was huge so that's why they did it. This makes more sense to me as I doubt they wanted a dud finish on the hopes of more money a month later.

Yeah, 🤯's Mania WatchThru stream of consciousness posts and our responses should be their own thread really.

We used to get a Mania subforum. Obviously we're not that active anymore, but we should all join in the watch along for Mania season.

LMAO Mania in a sold out thunderdome!

I was just thinking about this this evening. Had I known I would've been sticking with this WrestleMania WatchThru project so long and so consistently, I would've started my own thread for it. Apologies for clogging the pages here. How hard is it to move the posts to a new thread?

I'll keep future posts houses here along with any discussion they generate.

Currently paused in the middle of the GOAT, a.k.a. WrestleMania X-Seven.

I'm looking forward to watching Angle/Benoit in context. When I watched it back about a decade ago now, I remember finding it really disappointing, especially in light of their matches around 2002/03. They front loaded the match with half a dozen scientific wrestling sequences and then the rest of the match felt tepid by comparison.

As far as Angle/Benoit/Jericho, I just like the story of Angle getting screwed out of his titles by a stipulation we haven't seen since.

Great job Baker -man

Dec 22, 2020 19:40:37 GMT 🤯 said:

The off the stage finish isn't as awesome as I remember from first time real time viewing, but Kane/Raven/Big Show still holds up overall and edges out Hardcore Holly/Billy Gunn/Al Snow after all.

Yeah, it was a bit of a shitty looking couple of spots really. Not as shitty looking as the stage though. I feel like Prichard mentioned some problem with the stage on his Mania X-Seven podcast. Was it designed wrong or manufactured incorrectly to the design? Surely it was meant to read WrestleMania X-Seven before it reached those bottom parts and not WRESTLEMAN X-SEVE

Dec 22, 2020 20:00:58 GMT 🤯 said:

Heyman is the best WrestleMania color commentator since Ventura.

Yeah, he was great. I really like the JR/King pair from Vince leaving the desk post-Series 97 through to King leaving after No Way Out 01, but Heyman was such a breath of fresh air. Everyone always mentions it, but him explaining the story of Angle/Benoit, with Benoit outwrestling the wrestling champion Angle, resulting in a frustrated Angle turning it into a fight is great stuff. Exactly the sort of thing you want from a colour guy.

It always stood out to me on the DVD that they removed Heyman messing up the date during, I want to say, Vince's entrance but didn't cut out the resulting correction. What a weird choice.

Dec 22, 2020 20:52:20 GMT 🤯 said:

Man, WMX7 is practically perfection. Can you imagine if the main event had had a finish everyone was OK with? Man... 11 outta 10 then.

I can see someone criticising the show for having too many hardcore/gimmick matches and I could understand where they were coming from, but it ended up working better than it had any right to. It fit the era, but also they were different types of matches with weapons.

Vince/Shane was overbooked, soap opera, sports entertainment in all its glory. TLC II was an elite stunt show. Austin/Rock may have been No DQ like Vince/Shane, but it was completely different - a big-time main event mega-match masterclass. I wish Taker/HHH had a nasty, old school, claustrophobic, violent brawl for something different. Taker had Kane threatening to throw Trip's wife off a mezzanine floor to her death. Trips should've been wanting to tear him to shreds. The ref getting knocked out for 10 mins and the brawling in the crowd and the crash pad spots really hurt the match.

Dec 23, 2020 11:23:52 GMT Strobe said:

Great job Baker -man

Dec 22, 2020 19:40:37 GMT 🤯 said:

The off the stage finish isn't as awesome as I remember from first time real time viewing, but Kane/Raven/Big Show still holds up overall and edges out Hardcore Holly/Billy Gunn/Al Snow after all.

Yeah, it was a bit of a shitty looking couple of spots really. Not as shitty looking as the stage though. I feel like Prichard mentioned some problem with the stage on his Mania X-Seven podcast. Was it designed wrong or manufactured incorrectly to the design? Surely it was meant to read WrestleMania X-Seven before it reached those bottom parts and not WRESTLEMAN X-SEVE

Dec 22, 2020 20:00:58 GMT 🤯 said:

Heyman is the best WrestleMania color commentator since Ventura.

Yeah, he was great. I really like the JR/King pair from Vince leaving the desk post-Series 97 through to King leaving after No Way Out 01, but Heyman was such a breath of fresh air. Everyone always mentions it, but him explaining the story of Angle/Benoit, with Benoit outwrestling the wrestling champion Angle, resulting in a frustrated Angle turning it into a fight is great stuff. Exactly the sort of thing you want from a colour guy.

It always stood out to me on the DVD that they removed Heyman messing up the date during, I want to say, Vince's entrance but didn't cut out the resulting correction. What a weird choice.

Dec 22, 2020 20:52:20 GMT 🤯 said:

Man, WMX7 is practically perfection. Can you imagine if the main event had had a finish everyone was OK with? Man... 11 outta 10 then.

I can see someone criticising the show for having too many hardcore/gimmick matches and I could understand where they were coming from, but it ended up working better than it had any right to. It fit the era, but also they were different types of matches with weapons.

Vince/Shane was overbooked, soap opera, sports entertainment in all its glory. TLC II was an elite stunt show. Austin/Rock may have been No DQ like Vince/Shane, but it was completely different - a big-time main event mega-match masterclass. I wish Taker/HHH had a nasty, old school, claustrophobic, violent brawl for something different. Taker had Kane threatening to throw Trip's wife off a mezzanine floor to her death. Trips should've been wanting to tear him to shreds. The ref getting knocked out for 10 mins and the brawling in the crowd and the crash pad spots really hurt the match.

Holy shit, I've never noticed this about the set before. Unpausing now, and it's the first thing I see, and I can't unsee it. So hilarious!

The selective retroactive edits bother me so much. Almost even moreso when they're for the most minute minutia.

Entirely out of context, I can understand your nitpick about the number of gimmicks and/or hardcore match types. I do wonder how WMX7 would stack up watching it back to back with WM3. As it stands, it feels like WM13 set the Attitude Era blueprint. WM14 perfected what WM13 laid out. WM15 and WM16 introduced and toyed with new concepts at the expense of show and match quality. Then WMX7 figured out how to combine the perfection on WM14 with all the various concepts, match types, and overbooking of WM14 and WM16.

I've always been the biggest forgiver of the HHH/Taker ref bump and crash pad. Personally, my biggest gripe about WMX7 is straight up calling it a gimmick battle royal instead of even like a legends battle royal.

Updating even though I still need to finish WRESTLEMAN X-SEVE...

1. WrestleMania 17
2. WrestleMania 3
3. WrestleMania 14
4. WrestleMania 13
5. WrestleMania 8
6. WrestleMania 7
7. WrestleMania 6
8. WrestleMania 5
9. WrestleMania 10
10. WrestleMania 1
11. WrestleMania 4
12. WrestleMania 15
13. WrestleMania 12
14. WrestleMania 2
15. WrestleMania 9
16. WrestleMania 16
17. WrestleMania 11

Reshuffled the older ones a bit upon reflection.