And almost immediately after responding to Strobe's post about being so forgiving toward HHH/Taker, I'm eating those words a bit. The literal 10-minute ref bump is absurd considering it's just off of Taker dropping an elbow on him... which ALSO SHOULD'VE RESULTED IN TAKER BEING DISQUALIFIED!!! They also could've at least made SOME effort to disguise the crash pad. As it was, it was clearly just a foam pillow with a piece of black carpet over it. At least make it look like sound equipment that has a reason to be next to that scaffold structure!!!

Anyway... That all said, I still like the match as much as I did upon past viewings, and honestly think there's a simple fix to mitigate these nitpicks and the overarching on Strobe mentioned:

Just pre-announce that all matches at this Mania will be no DQ, no count-out as part of a branding effort where WrestleMania goes X-treme at WrestleMania X-Seven. Considering the finishes to the other matches, i.e., no DQs or count-out anyway... It wouldn't deprive you of the same booking. Also, makes Heyman on commentary an even better tie-in.

In fact, use the stip to enhance all the matches...

Regal tries to take advantage of the no DQ stip by hitting Jericho with the IC belt, only for it to backfire on him. Jericho bulldogs Regal onto the dropped title belt, then Lionsaults him for the pinfall win.

The Radicalz interfere more blatantly to help Eddie defeat Test for the Euro title.

The Hardcore triple threat stays the same.

The RTC 8-man just becomes that much more of a chaotic tornado tag, and Ivory/Chyna remains as-is with the commentary mentioning the hold-harmless agreement Chyna signed in exchange for no RTC interference. Ivory tries to attack Chyna's neck with the title belt, to level the playing field and add drama... Only for Wonder Woman Chyna to no sell it along with everything else.

Benoit/Angle stands out more for not needing the no DQ stip, as they're out to prove the better wrestler. Maybe it comes into play with not breaking a hold at the five-count?

The McMahon street fight and TLC stay the same, as does the main event, but now HHH/Taker is improved from a logic standpoint.

Only issue with that announcement is they made a big deal out of announcing before their entrances that the main event would be no dq.

That always felt weird, like I generally expected the main events to already be anything goes. Like you ain't gonna end this with a countout.

JR: No DQ??!? How can they do that. Or some other over-reaction to the announcement.

I was just thinking... it wasn't already?

Also just wanna say HHH/Taker was probably my most overwatched match from that whole show. As a kid (I say as I was probably 16) I didn't even notice the ref bump or put 2 and 2 together. But yeah like I said, it's Mania. I wasn't expecting lameo shit like countouts and no DQ in the mains.

The powerbomb corner spot felt special this match. It had been done before (I mean they do regular pbombs from the corner all the time... the sunset flip bomb anyone?) and since then... but it never felt like it mattered outside of this match.

Pretty sure they reused it for Cena's first PPV bout against Taker.

I still need to transfer 🤯's early 'Mania reviews over to this thread. Went way back in the Match Review Thread last night. Still couldn't find them. Threw in the towel because I wanted to go to sleep. You guys know the search engine here isn't the greatest. I'll go hunting again after this post.

Dec 24, 2020 1:36:08 GMT Baker said:

I still need to transfer 🤯's early 'Mania reviews over to this thread. Went way back in the Match Review Thread last night. Still couldn't find them. Threw in the towel because I wanted to go to sleep. You guys know the search engine here isn't the greatest. I'll go hunting again after this post.

Nah Just means he's gotta start with Mania all ovet again.

Dec 24, 2020 16:04:36 GMT @ness said:

Dec 24, 2020 1:36:08 GMT Baker said:

I still need to transfer 🤯's early 'Mania reviews over to this thread. Went way back in the Match Review Thread last night. Still couldn't find them. Threw in the towel because I wanted to go to sleep. You guys know the search engine here isn't the greatest. I'll go hunting again after this post.

Nah Just means he's gotta start with Mania all ovet again.

OK! I was debating doing this as I started a parallel project around WrestleMania 8 of ranking every match... But then realized I couldn't really remember every Dino Bravo match.

I talked before about how Tito got a bit screwed out of a possibly great Mania resume.

WrestleMania: vs. Valentine (IC Title)
WrestleMania 2: vs. Savage (IC Title)
WrestleMania III: with Bulldogs vs. Foundation/Davis as happened
WrestleMania IV: vs. Demolition (Tag Titles) as happened
WrestleMania V: can be as happened against Brainbusters or someone else, the Martel turn is what matters
WrestleMania VI: vs. Martel
WrestleMania VII: I can never find something good for him here
WrestleMania VIII: vs. DiBiase

That would have been a great collection of matches to have had.

I was thinking Waltman also got very unlucky with his Mania lot. In reality, he started up just after IX, the 10-man at X was cut for time, he was only Razor's corner-man at XI, not on the card at XII, returned the night after XIV, got his first Mania match against Shane O'Mac at XV, then the Kane/Kish tag at 2000, then was on the pre-show at X-Seven in a nothing tag and finally came back from an injury lay-off 2 nights after X8 to join the nWo. Oh and I guess the DX run-in during Sting/HHH at 31.

In early 1994, Kid/Marty traded the tag titles with the Quebecers and a conclusion of their deal could've been planned for Mania. But Marty got fired in Feb and Kid had various partners subbing for Marty against them on house shows. Kid also got involved with IRS in late Jan. Razor had feuded with IRS post-SummerSlam 1993, after sending his partner DiBiase packing, and towards the end of the year the returning Shawn and his own IC title got worked in. Kid and Diesel were involved with that as well. Razor beat IRS at the Rumble and on a RAW just after, Kid stole IRS's briefcase and took it backstage to allow Razor to reclaim his stolen chains. You could easily have made Kid/IRS or Kid/Diesel work for Mania. Or Kid & partner vs. Quebecers.

With the tag title scene in early 1995, Kid returning from the injury angle to win back the titles with Holly from the Gunns would've made complete sense. Allows you to run Owen/Bulldog as should've been and then you can have Owen/Yoko winning from Kid/Holly at IYH 1.

As said previously, Razor/Kid Crybaby blowoff could've been at XII.

The Shane match at XV is probably the one time Waltman was done right by at Mania.

As already said in relation to 2000 chat above, it really should have been the big Kane/Pac blowoff.

X-Pac returned in Feb 2001 and immediately got involved with Jericho again, who he was feuding with when he got injured back in Oct 2000. It tied into the Benoit/Eddie tension in the Radicalz and rivals Benoit/Jericho had just faced off at the Rumble in the ladder match. So you had a four-way at No Way Out and really you'd expect to see Benoit/Eddie resolution and a final blowoff of Jericho/Pac at X-Seven.

Even with joining just after IX, returning just after XIV and coming back from injury just after X8, Waltman could've easily had:

WrestleMania X: vs. IRS
WrestleMania XI: with Holly vs. Gunns (Tag Titles)
WrestleMania XII: vs. Razor (Crybaby)
WrestleMania XV: vs. Shane (European) as happened
WrestleMania 2000: vs. Kane (some big gimmick match)
WrestleMania X-Seven: vs. Jericho (IC)

That would've been a nice enough resume.

Baker, Demolition lost steam to Ake's heart attack. Which necessitated Fuji's return as manager. That cooled them a lot. Combined with WWF having no idea how to book LOD meant the feud was dead from the start.

Finally resuming this with a third attempt to get through Austin/Rock II.

Aside from the Debra misstep, the buildup to this match might be the GOAT. So pumped!

It's just a shame about Stone Cold's Disturbed theme. Blegh!

Is the finish to Rock/Austin II not as big of an offense as Vince totally no-selling the coast-to-coast killshot? The no-sell honestly bothers me way more.

Also, the finish wouldn't have come off nearly as bad IMO had the Texas crowd not erupted out of their seats once Austin finally pinned Rock.

Saliva opening WM18 might've surpassed WM11 for worst WrestleMania opening ever. This is literal audio garbage.

Dec 29, 2020 17:19:56 GMT 🤯 said:

Is the finish to Rock/Austin II not as big of an offense as Vince totally no-selling the coast-to-coast killshot? The no-sell honestly bothers me way more.

Also, the finish wouldn't have come off nearly as bad IMO had the Texas crowd not erupted out of their seats once Austin finally pinned Rock.

I still think the finish was fine but the follow-up wasn’t. Austin wasn’t willing to be an actual heel and still wanted to be cool and sell t-shirts.

Dec 29, 2020 17:43:20 GMT PB said:

Dec 29, 2020 17:19:56 GMT 🤯 said:

Is the finish to Rock/Austin II not as big of an offense as Vince totally no-selling the coast-to-coast killshot? The no-sell honestly bothers me way more.

Also, the finish wouldn't have come off nearly as bad IMO had the Texas crowd not erupted out of their seats once Austin finally pinned Rock.

I still think the finish was fine but the follow-up wasn’t. Austin wasn’t willing to be an actual heel and still wanted to be cool and sell t-shirts.

Yeah, really seems more like the business decisions afterward retroactively tainted the finish, which was really just planting seeds.

Regal must have the deepest trunks ever. It took him FOREVER to find his knux. Awkward stall.

Also, I'm kinda forgetting why RVD was so over in the WWF. He seems to be as much of a clunky plodfoot as Jericho. At least RVD is springy and flexible, I guess?

Regal's suplexes are the best part of this opener so far.

Man, that half nelson suplex is even better than I remember.

Regal looks to be in the best shape he's ever been in during his WWF run.

Toronto fans seem less invested in RVD winning the IC belt than Texas fans seemed in Y2J retaining.

Gonna give the Y2J a slight edge as the better overall match, but the RVD match had more memorable high spots (that fucking half nelson suplex!).

All in all, nothing has surpassed Rock/Sultan yet as a better WM IC title match since WM13.

Christian feuding with DDP because DDP helped Christian defeat Billy Gunn on RAW one week ago might be a worse reason for A WrestleMania match than shampoo commercial jealousy.

DDP wearing the MMA gloves has me wondering... Was he a "striker" like Taker?

No Strikes DDP and On His Own Christian having a better much and getting more of a fan reaction than the opener. Wonder if that's because DDP meticulously structured his one and only WrestleMania match?

And Drowning Pool is just as bad as if not worse than Saliva, as they "tell the story of the main event". This might be enough to get me to stop for today.

Is WM18 the most haphazardly booked WrestleMania ever?

We pivot from the Edge/Regal rivalry getting its final blowoff to RVD/Regal... which I guess is OK, as it's a way to kick the show off with an RVD title win. Exciting in theory.

Then DDP/Christian was solid, but booked because DDP helped Christian beat Billy Gunn on RAW? Okay...

The Hardcore title match and gaga feels more like a way to get guys paydays and thread a string through the show. With the likes of Crash and Al involved though, feel like this gimmick would've felt more timely 2-3 years ago.

Then Kurt Angle/Kane feels like such a misuse of both guys. Even Rock/Hogan seems so hastily put together that Rock has to cut a promo early on to seemingly shore up interest in the match? Then, in a similar vein, Drowning Pool has to perform a song dedicated to the Undisputed Title match to help sell it on the night? At least the crowd continues to come alive.

After being mostly quiet for RVD/Regal, then popping for DDP/Christian, then rightfully neither here nor there for the Hardcore stuff, they seem to be popping for the right spots in Kurt/Kane.

Did they botch the finish of Kurt/Kane?

Did the Austin Powers sequel come out in late 2001/early 2002? Trying to put a finger on what inspired the scene with Hurricane getting a broomstick erection while spying on Godfather's hoes backstage.

I wonder if Taker requested to wrestle Flair at WrestleMania?

Wonder what the plan for Taker might've been pre-Flair.

Leave it to all-time pros like Flair and Taker to do a blood feud grudge match right with Flair immediately charging into a brawl with Taker with reckless abandon. Several previous WrestleMania matches up to this point should take notes.

Dec 29, 2020 20:55:15 GMT 🤯 said:

Leave it to all-time pros like Flair and Taker to do a blood feud grudge match right with Flair immediately charging into a brawl with Taker with reckless abandon. Several previous WrestleMania matches up to this point should take notes.

Shoulda began with a collar and elbow honestly.

Still mad 🤯 is doing this at random and not giving us the chance to join in with a party announcement.

Dec 29, 2020 21:12:47 GMT @ness said:

Dec 29, 2020 20:55:15 GMT 🤯 said:

Leave it to all-time pros like Flair and Taker to do a blood feud grudge match right with Flair immediately charging into a brawl with Taker with reckless abandon. Several previous WrestleMania matches up to this point should take notes.

Shoulda began with a collar and elbow honestly.

Still mad 🤯 is doing this at random and not giving us the chance to join in with a party announcement.

Gotta strike while the iron is hot. And in this case, a hot iron is a sleeping son. Plus, this ain't no party... It's a QUEST!

/////

Wonder if all the Booger Red stuff on commentary is because JR was still pissed about Taker forcing him to kiss Vince's ass?

Dec 29, 2020 21:21:31 GMT 🤯 said:

Dec 29, 2020 21:12:47 GMT @ness said:

Shoulda began with a collar and elbow honestly.

Still mad 🤯 is doing this at random and not giving us the chance to join in with a party announcement.

Gotta strike while the iron is hot. And in this case, a hot iron is a sleeping son . Plus, this ain't no party... It's a QUEST!

/////

Wonder if all the Booger Red stuff on commentary is because JR was still pissed about Taker forcing him to kiss Vince's ass?

Wasn't Booger Red the nickname of some pro sports thing (or maybe college) JR likes so he tried to use the nickname here? How can someone be so hard-r to not know booger is a thing. He knows what boogers are, palsey or not!

Alternate titles for WWF's Forceable Entry album:

Unwanted Penetration