Dec 31, 2020 1:20:06 GMT Strobe said:

Dec 31, 2020 1:15:15 GMT Baker said:

Whoa. Let's not get crazy here. That WM 13 four way was a total trainwreck. And at least Billy & Chuck retained at 18. That alone is enough for it to top 13 in my book.

Is 🤯 such a tiddy man that this wasn't enough to make the X8 tag better?

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}

Yes. At least historically. I was always Torrie over Stacy for the WCW imports because T over A, but I have softened over the years and grown to appreciate Stacy.

And I posted (among other things) prematurely, as that spot and the final stretch of the WM18 four-way indeed resulted in it being overall better than WM13's.

Dec 31, 2020 1:16:41 GMT Strobe said:

I can't wait until we get to "the WWE's favourite band... in the whole world... Limp Bizkit" at Mania XIX.

I was never a fan of Limp Bizkit around 2000 unlike seemingly everyone, including all my pals. For personal enjoyment, if I could punch anyone in history, Fred Durst is up there. But they were seen as cool around 2000. It is amazing how much that had changed by only 2003.

I still find it amazing that people talk about Taker's recent kayfabe breaking stuff finally breaking his aura when his 00-03 run exists. He did OTR and he had a kayfabe-shattering DVD talking about being in WCW, being pitched the Taker gimmick, showing him at home with his wife. Even if you were just watching WWF/E TV, he was hugging Fred Durst while looking like this.

Dec 30, 2020 19:59:31 GMT 🤯 said:

For both being such big matches, which had the worse/better build: Rock/Austin II or Rock/Hogan?

Now that I think of it... Didn't Hogan/Warrior have relatively little build considering how big it was?

Yeah, Rock/Hogan was worse than Rock/Austin because at least that sit-down interview was excellent. Hogan's attempted murder on the Rock with the truck into the ambulance was yet another example of wrestling having gone far too far, making it into a bit of a joke really.

Hogan/Warrior was from a different time where the top names seldom interacted. Hard to compare to 10 years later. You had their Rumble interaction to lay the groundwork. Then they teamed up to beat Perfect/Genius on SNME, but in a post-match fracas Warrior accidentally clotheslined Hogan and they had a shoving match and went nose to nose. Hogan then made the Ultimate Challenge to see if he was still the man. Hogan came out to save Warrior from a Quake attack at The Main Event and they went nose to nose again. Then Warrior saved Hogan from a Quake attack on Superstars and went to clothesline him from behind, but stopped himself and left. Then they did the contract signing on the Ultimate Challenge special* of Wrestling Challenge. In terms of teasing and building a mega-match between two faces, I think it was reasonably well done.

*This special also features the Quake/Garvin match we should've had at Mania VI.

Dec 30, 2020 22:12:29 GMT 🤯 said:

Jericho is absolutely a jobber who doesn't belong in the main event here.

Triple H vs. Stephanie McMahon with Chris Jericho in the main event of WrestleMania.

The man who beat Austin and Rock in one night to become the first Undisputed Champion, then beat Rock again at the Rumble to retain and had kayfabe injured Triple H, putting him out for 8 months and leading to his whole epic comeback. Let's have him be Steph's bitch and walk her little dog.

Good points on the attempted vehicular manslaughter and apples to oranges re: build for Hogan/Warrior.

With Jericho, when did Stephanie enter the picture? Because then the night of Vengeance, Jericho felt forced and like a misfit punk purely there for shock value. His claim of being legit because he beat Rock and Austin on the same night always did more to highlight that Rock and Austin were the measuring sticks and Jericho still couldn't live up to the bar. He's always been a B PPV main event title challenger at best. Like a Kane. Guarantee if you out Kurt in the same exact spot, with the same exact booking, including walking Stephanie's dog, it works much better than Jericho.

That all said, it should've just been Austin to close the Two Man Power Trip story.

Dec 31, 2020 2:53:36 GMT 🤯 said:

With Jericho, when did Stephanie enter the picture? Because then the night of Vengeance, Jericho felt forced and like a misfit punk purely there for shock value. His claim of being legit because he beat Rock and Austin on the same night always did more to highlight that Rock and Austin were the measuring sticks and Jericho still couldn't live up to the bar. He's always been a B PPV main event title challenger at best. Like a Kane. Guarantee if you out Kurt in the same exact spot, with the same exact booking, including walking Stephanie's dog, it works much better than Jericho.

Agreed that Jericho wasn't a great choice. I remember being dumbfounded in real time. Once they had gone with him, go with him though. He had beaten Rock at No Mercy. He had beaten Rock and Austin in one night at Vengeance. He beat Rock again at the Rumble. Then beat Austin again at No Way Out. None of those were clean and, like Angle in 2000, he was booked as a fluke champion really. But having done all that, at least build him strong for Mania.

Steph went to Jericho's side less than a month before Mania, after No Way Out. They did bring up that Jericho injured Trips, but it was negated by Jericho being Steph's bitch. They needed to cuck H and have Steph be all over the rock god Jericho if they wanted to do that, but that was never going to happen.

Angle would've been a better choice. He'd have been hilarious as the heel Undisputed Champion, just smitten with his own greatness. He had the history with Trips/Steph going back to the 00-01 feud. That was why he was chosen as H's first feud back and opponent for the Rumble and No Way Out. Him being champ and Trips winning the Rumble to face him would've worked.

Finished WM18, and HHH/Y2J absolutely should've been shorter and more of a squash considering how Jericho had been booked in the buildup and how fatigued the crowd mostly was after Rock/Hogan. All in all, not a bad match... For a B PPV main event. Absolutely should NOT have headlined a WrestleMania, especially over Rock/Hogan.

/////

Updating:

1. WrestleMania 17
2. WrestleMania 3
3. WrestleMania 14
4. WrestleMania 13
5. WrestleMania 8
6. WrestleMania 7
7. WrestleMania 18
8. WrestleMania 6
9. WrestleMania 5
10. WrestleMania 10
11. WrestleMania 1
12. WrestleMania 4
13. WrestleMania 12
14. WrestleMania 15
15. WrestleMania 16
16. WrestleMania 2
17. WrestleMania 9
18. WrestleMania 11

No bad matches but begs to be rebooked from top to bottom, excluding only Rock/Hogan. As much as I loved Taker/Flair the first time in real time and again during this rewatch, even it isn't immune to the rebook urges.

HHH absolutely needed a bigger, better opponent. Austin and Kurt are the obvious better alternatives. Austin because he's one of the 3 biggest stars available, plus the Two Man Power Trip history. Kurt because of the Steph tie-in and just being better and more legitimate in every way than Jericho.

Honestly, I think if you shuffle it to the following you probably end up with a WrestleMania that tops WMX7:

- Undisputed Title: Steve Austin (c) vs. Triple H

- The Rock vs. Hulk Hogan

- Street Fight for total control of the WWF: Vince McMahon vs. Ric Flair (postponed from Royal Rumble)

- Tornado Tag: The Brothers of Destruction vs. The Outsiders (did Taker REALLY need to go heel to accomplish what he did as Booger Red?)

- Kurt Angle vs. Chris Jericho in something involving defending Stephanie McMahon's honor?

Then I think the rest could probably stay the same if need be.

While Bret vs. Owen might be the best match to be the first match on a PPV, it wasn't the best first match on a PPV (as I maintain that it didn't need to and shouldn't have gone on first). That honor IMO goes to Kurt vs. Rey from SummerSlam 2002, and for WrestleManias only... I think Matt vs. Rey is possibly the best opener so far across 19 WMs.

And now it's time for WWE's favorite band of all time... Which, to its credit, technically "WWE" is barely a year old by this point. So it's reasonable for its taste in music to be as ill-formed as son's. That said, in all fairness, this is the best musical performance at a Mania to-date. And the crowd actually popped for Limp Bizkit. That's more than can be said for Drowning Pool, Saliva, or Motörhead.

Can't tell if Taker vs. Show & Train is a terrible or genius use of Taker here. It's a pretty entertaining match even if it's ugly as hell on paper. Ultimately just thankful they scrapped the tag with Nathan Jones.

Wait a tic...

Is NATH45 Nathan Jones? They're both Australian Nathans. That can't be a coincidence!

As much as I love where the WWE's heart was, WMXIX needed none of the Miller cat fight girls vs. Torrie & Stacy.

OK, there's Trish. I guess I get it, pduh.

But then there's my girl, Jazz. What a fucking beast. Love her. She's definitely the Mike Tyson of the Women's division.

And then there's Victoria with Stevie. Always loved this pairing. Never understood others' Victoria hate. She's looking pretty good here.

Poor Molly should've been in this to make it a four-way.

It's crazy that Rock as a wrestler in his prime was never as yoked as he'd become as an actor.

Benoit and Rhyno teaming together after both missing last year's WrestleMania due to broken necks... Should've donned matching outfits to be viewed as a REAL team, and then branded themselves as the Broken Neck Express.

Rhyno looks like the middle brother between youngest Andrew WK and eldest Weird Al.

Wish APA had been involved here. Tag four-ways are a WrestleMania STAPLE.

Even though there's a missing team, so far this is the best WrestleMania tag four-way. No surprise considering the talent involved.

Dec 31, 2020 14:53:53 GMT 🤯 said:

Finished WM18, and HHH/Y2J absolutely should've been shorter and more of a squash considering how Jericho had been booked in the buildup and how fatigued the crowd mostly was after Rock/Hogan. All in all, not a bad match... For a B PPV main event. Absolutely should NOT have headlined a WrestleMania, especially over Rock/Hogan.

/////

Updating:

1. WrestleMania 17
2. WrestleMania 3
3. WrestleMania 14
4. WrestleMania 13
5. WrestleMania 8
6. WrestleMania 7
7. WrestleMania 18
8. WrestleMania 6
9. WrestleMania 5
10. WrestleMania 10
11. WrestleMania 1
12. WrestleMania 4
13. WrestleMania 12
14. WrestleMania 15
15. WrestleMania 16
16. WrestleMania 2
17. WrestleMania 9
18. WrestleMania 11

No bad matches but begs to be rebooked from top to bottom, excluding only Rock/Hogan. As much as I loved Taker/Flair the first time in real time and again during this rewatch, even it isn't immune to the rebook urges.

HHH absolutely needed a bigger, better opponent. Austin and Kurt are the obvious better alternatives. Austin because he's one of the 3 biggest stars available, plus the Two Man Power Trip history. Kurt because of the Steph tie-in and just being better and more legitimate in every way than Jericho.

Honestly, I think if you shuffle it to the following you probably end up with a WrestleMania that tops WMX7:

- Undisputed Title: Steve Austin (c) vs. Triple H

- The Rock vs. Hulk Hogan

- Street Fight for total control of the WWF: Vince McMahon vs. Ric Flair (postponed from Royal Rumble)

- Tornado Tag: The Brothers of Destruction vs. The Outsiders (did Taker REALLY need to go heel to accomplish what he did as Booger Red?)

- Kurt Angle vs. Chris Jericho in something involving defending Stephanie McMahon's honor?

Then I think the rest could probably stay the same if need be.

Do you think there's any shot of Triple H getting cheered over Austin? I think that's the clear route as they both feel so wasted, but it's also clear they want to capitalise on the propaganda return videos and that return pop of all return pops and make Triple H a top face - but could it have worked against Austin? I think it could have if you have Austin hype up the tweener stuff and be a bit paranoid about winning, and have Triple H always be a bad ass - but it's a tough call. 

What do you do with the nWo then? I think considering how crap Nash and Hall were in the ring, just have them play their part in Hogan/Rock. Maybe Hogan tells them at the last minute he doesn't want them ringside, he wants to do it on his own, then have the same aftermath? 

ICON vs. ICON
The Rock vs. Hollywood Hulk Hogan

Undisputed Championship

Steve Austin vs. Chris Jericho

Women's Championship
Trish vs. Lita vs. Jazz

The Undertaker vs. Ric Flair (I loved this in real time and I think it's instrumental in Flair getting his confidence back so it has to stay).

Booker T vs. Kurt Angle (just for the comedy gold in the build up)

Edge vs. Chris Jericho (allow Jericho to continue to grow as a heel more naturally against an opponent of similar quality)

Intercontinental Championship
William Regal vs. DDP (Let's give DDP a bigger spot and have a real change of pace match-up)

Triple Threat Ladder Match for European Championship
RVD vs. Jeff Hardy vs. Christian

Tag Team Championship
Billy & Chuck vs. The Dudleys vs. APA

Hardcore Title Scramble Match
Kane vs. Maven vs. Goldust vs. Matt Hardy vs. everyone else not on the show in a twenty minute skit with big moves that gets everyone involved in a fun way

Limp Bizkit is WWE's favorite band.

Dec 31, 2020 16:20:13 GMT PB said:

Dec 31, 2020 14:53:53 GMT 🤯 said:

Finished WM18, and HHH/Y2J absolutely should've been shorter and more of a squash considering how Jericho had been booked in the buildup and how fatigued the crowd mostly was after Rock/Hogan. All in all, not a bad match... For a B PPV main event. Absolutely should NOT have headlined a WrestleMania, especially over Rock/Hogan.

/////

Updating:

1. WrestleMania 17
2. WrestleMania 3
3. WrestleMania 14
4. WrestleMania 13
5. WrestleMania 8
6. WrestleMania 7
7. WrestleMania 18
8. WrestleMania 6
9. WrestleMania 5
10. WrestleMania 10
11. WrestleMania 1
12. WrestleMania 4
13. WrestleMania 12
14. WrestleMania 15
15. WrestleMania 16
16. WrestleMania 2
17. WrestleMania 9
18. WrestleMania 11

No bad matches but begs to be rebooked from top to bottom, excluding only Rock/Hogan. As much as I loved Taker/Flair the first time in real time and again during this rewatch, even it isn't immune to the rebook urges.

HHH absolutely needed a bigger, better opponent. Austin and Kurt are the obvious better alternatives. Austin because he's one of the 3 biggest stars available, plus the Two Man Power Trip history. Kurt because of the Steph tie-in and just being better and more legitimate in every way than Jericho.

Honestly, I think if you shuffle it to the following you probably end up with a WrestleMania that tops WMX7:

- Undisputed Title: Steve Austin (c) vs. Triple H

- The Rock vs. Hulk Hogan

- Street Fight for total control of the WWF: Vince McMahon vs. Ric Flair (postponed from Royal Rumble)

- Tornado Tag: The Brothers of Destruction vs. The Outsiders (did Taker REALLY need to go heel to accomplish what he did as Booger Red?)

- Kurt Angle vs. Chris Jericho in something involving defending Stephanie McMahon's honor?

Then I think the rest could probably stay the same if need be.

Do you think there's any shot of Triple H getting cheered over Austin? I think that's the clear route as they both feel so wasted, but it's also clear they want to capitalise on the propaganda return videos and that return pop of all return pops and make Triple H a top face - but could it have worked against Austin? I think it could have if you have Austin hype up the tweener stuff and be a bit paranoid about winning, and have Triple H always be a bad ass - but it's a tough call. 

What do you do with the nWo then? I think considering how crap Nash and Hall were in the ring, just have them play their part in Hogan/Rock. Maybe Hogan tells them at the last minute he doesn't want them ringside, he wants to do it on his own, then have the same aftermath? 

ICON vs. ICON
The Rock vs. Hollywood Hulk Hogan

Undisputed Championship

Steve Austin vs. Chris Jericho

Women's Championship
Trish vs. Lita vs. Jazz

The Undertaker vs. Ric Flair (I loved this in real time and I think it's instrumental in Flair getting his confidence back so it has to stay).

Booker T vs. Kurt Angle (just for the comedy gold in the build up)

Edge vs. Chris Jericho (allow Jericho to continue to grow as a heel more naturally against an opponent of similar quality)

Intercontinental Championship
William Regal vs. DDP (Let's give DDP a bigger spot and have a real change of pace match-up)

Triple Threat Ladder Match for European Championship
RVD vs. Jeff Hardy vs. Christian

Tag Team Championship
Billy & Chuck vs. The Dudleys vs. APA

Hardcore Title Scramble Match
Kane vs. Maven vs. Goldust vs. Matt Hardy vs. everyone else not on the show in a twenty minute skit with big moves that gets everyone involved in a fun way

I love this idea! Double book Jericho and leave HHH entirely off the card... So many problems fixed!

Kidding aside, I think you raise a valid point about HHH getting cheered over Austin or not. I still question the smarts in pushing HHH as a face for the long term. At least if he's going up against the likes of more beloved faces in Rock, Austin, Hogan, Taker, and Shawn. Considering he's the Cerebral Assassin, I feel like HHH should've known the money would be in playing top heel to those same names. Then HHH could play to his strengths, with Kurt and Jericho falling to #2 & #3 top heels (or #3 & #4 if Taker stays heel).

I think the seeds are best planted by the Kliq connection. nWo comes in, Nash & Hall immediately congratulate HHH on his return and Rumble win, and try recruiting him into the nWo... Creating tension with Hogan. HHH rejects the recruitment offer as softly as he can with a cool noncommittal "I'll think about it".

Add HHH to that RAW match to make it a six-man with HHH joining Rock and Austin against the nWo. Miscommunication or something to further the Hogan tension.

At WrestleMania, the Outsiders choke in their match so plot to take it out on Rock. Hogan says please no, and we get the same post-match. Add a segment where the pissed off Outsiders are seen backstage as HHH makes his way to the ring. They exchange a knowing nod. Austin and HHH wage an epic war to a stalemate... When Nash & Hall come out in the end, and join HHH in a 3-on-1 murdering of Austin en route to HHH winning the title in a heel turn.

HHH as leader of the Kliq with Nash, Hall, X-Pac, and a returning Shawn is now positioned as top heel world champion with his BFFs forming a hybrid DX Horsemen. In other words, HHH's wet dream.

They kill Rock on RAW as a bridge to killing Hogan in HHH's first title defense at Backlash. Then it's title vs. career in Hell in a Call against a burned out Austin at Judgment Day. Austin takes his ball and goes home. By KOTR, Taker is face and a returning Rock gets Vengeance by being the special referee or outside inference that gets the title onto Taker.

Plane Ride From Hell loses us Hall & X-Pac along the way, but are we really losing anything with them? Then Nash's quad explodes. So it's just HHH with Shawn as a sorta hypeman manager. HHH blames Shawn for his title loss more than he blames Rock. We still get the Vengeance triple threat and HHH turning on HBK to set up SummerSlam.

Dec 31, 2020 15:24:52 GMT 🤯 said:

Wait a tic...

Is NATH45 Nathan Jones? They're both Australian Nathans. That can't be a coincidence!

The writing around the Invasion era left a lot to be desired and hurt a lot of careers. Jericho was somebody who could have been marketable as a champion but his character just needed some more fleshing out before he was ready for the big time. Instead of fleshing it out with rivalries against guys like Raven, Lance Storm, Rob Van Dam, Booker T or even Kurt Angle, they positioned him as the dollar store knock off of The Rock. That was evident when they would both insult Stephanie and then later on when they put them in a rivalry where The Rock essentially called him a choke artist.

Then they turned him heel and turned the one thing he was known for (roasting Steph) against him by making it a deep-rooted crush. I don't think his character ever recovered after that and while he had some nice moments with HBK and Christian his character didn't amount to anything until 2008.

I like your approach with him 🤯, but I'd try and dress it up like Angle/Benoit where they're both clearly moving onto bigger and better things. I think a Jericho/Angle match would make sense (with Austin coming up against HHH) and it's a rivalry that had never really been fleshed out before.

Otherwise I'd cut the musical performances and try to fit more guys on the show and make it like a throwback show with shorter matches and things to look forward to.

Dec 31, 2020 16:54:12 GMT 🤯 said:

I love this idea! Double book Jericho and leave HHH entirely off the card... So many problems fixed!

I don't like this post.

Dec 31, 2020 14:53:53 GMT 🤯 said:

7. WrestleMania 18


HHH absolutely needed a bigger, better opponent. Austin and Kurt are the obvious better alternatives. Austin because he's one of the 3 biggest stars available, plus the Two Man Power Trip history. Kurt because of the Steph tie-in and just being better and more legitimate in every way than Jericho.

Honestly, I think if you shuffle it to the following you probably end up with a WrestleMania that tops WMX7:

- Undisputed Title: Steve Austin (c) vs. Triple H

- The Rock vs. Hulk Hogan

- Street Fight for total control of the WWF: Vince McMahon vs. Ric Flair (postponed from Royal Rumble)

- Tornado Tag: The Brothers of Destruction vs. The Outsiders (did Taker REALLY need to go heel to accomplish what he did as Booger Red?)

- Kurt Angle vs. Chris Jericho in something involving defending Stephanie McMahon's honor?

Surprised you have 18 in the top half of 'Mania's. I guess none of the matches were terrible? But you said yourself the booking was a trainwreck.

Agree on HHH vs. Austin or Angle being better than HHH/Jericho. Just reshuffle things and have Jericho be HHH's first feud back since Jericho was the guy who put him on the shelf to begin with.

I like BoD vs. Outsiders as a 'Mania match but wasn't Nash hurt? 

Taker didn't NEED to go heel but I do think it revitalized him after a rough 18 months. The Hardcore Match with RVD at the show where Jericho won the Undisputed Championship was Taker's best match since at least WM 17. Then we got the cool Maven stuff and the cooler Flair feud. Turning heel helped Taker regain his mojo imo. 

Plus how can you discount his heel turn. That's gotta be a top X somewhere.

HELL NO I WON'T KISS HIS ASS XDDDD!!!!

Is that cuz you're better than me?

Oh shit, someone fucked up...

Jan 1, 2021 5:43:13 GMT Baker said:

Dec 31, 2020 14:53:53 GMT 🤯 said:

7. WrestleMania 18


HHH absolutely needed a bigger, better opponent. Austin and Kurt are the obvious better alternatives. Austin because he's one of the 3 biggest stars available, plus the Two Man Power Trip history. Kurt because of the Steph tie-in and just being better and more legitimate in every way than Jericho.

Honestly, I think if you shuffle it to the following you probably end up with a WrestleMania that tops WMX7:

- Undisputed Title: Steve Austin (c) vs. Triple H

- The Rock vs. Hulk Hogan

- Street Fight for total control of the WWF: Vince McMahon vs. Ric Flair (postponed from Royal Rumble)

- Tornado Tag: The Brothers of Destruction vs. The Outsiders (did Taker REALLY need to go heel to accomplish what he did as Booger Red?)

- Kurt Angle vs. Chris Jericho in something involving defending Stephanie McMahon's honor?

Surprised you have 18 in the top half of 'Mania's. I guess none of the matches were terrible? But you said yourself the booking was a trainwreck.

Agree on HHH vs. Austin or Angle being better than HHH/Jericho. Just reshuffle things and have Jericho be HHH's first feud back since Jericho was the guy who put him on the shelf to begin with.

I like BoD vs. Outsiders as a 'Mania match but wasn't Nash hurt? 

Taker didn't NEED to go heel but I do think it revitalized him after a rough 18 months. The Hardcore Match with RVD at the show where Jericho won the Undisputed Championship was Taker's best match since at least WM 17. Then we got the cool Maven stuff and the cooler Flair feud. Turning heel helped Taker regain his mojo imo. 

I've learned my rankings aren't set in stone, so WM18 could rise or fall. It's as high as it is largely on the backs of the awesome Rock/Hogan and Taker/Flair matches. And while the booking going into the show sucked, none of the matches themselves were out and out stinkers. Same can't necessarily be said of other WrestleManias carried by one or two matches.

Opening with an RVD title win is never a bad idea, and the match itself was serviceable. The next match was even better, with better characters, and set Christian up to be part of a fun story arc for the evening.

The hardcore title stuff was an inoffensive way to get guys on the card and thread a fun string through the evening.

Even if there were better ways to pair the talent up Kurt/Kane, Edge/Booker, Austin/Hall, and HHH/Y2J weren't bad matches. Kurt/Kane was more entertaining than it had any right to be, right up until the botched finish. And as Big Pete mentioned, Austin/Hall really made chicken salad considering their constraints and situation. HHH/Y2J not going on after Rock/Hogan and as the main event of any PPV other than a Mania is solid.

That tag four-way ultimately proved my WM13 comment wrong.

And then there's the awesomeness of Taker/Flair, and the unmatched moment of Rock/Hogan.

I don't think Nash was inured for Mania. I think accounts are that he was enough of a politician to know not to job in a match that might hurt his appeal. I think it was supposed up he Austin vs. The Outsiders in a handicap... But Nash likely saw no point in jobbing to Austin and losing his heat, whereas Hall is the consummate pro unless drugs and alcohol are involved. For as physical as Nash got during the Austin/Hall match and Rock/Hogan post-match, he could've totally wrestled a tag not requiring all that much.

And despite dumping all over Jericho, HBK/Y2J is as good as I remember. Can't tell if I'd have it just ahead of or just behind Taker/Flair.

And then this stupid fucking fatal 4-way pillow fight was totally not worth it if tiddies and snatch weren't gonna be shown.

HHH's modified Indian deathlock is a pretty cool-looking submission.

I'll forever be the apologist for the finish to Booker/HHH.

The slow cover after the Pedigree makes perfect sense in context. They sold it as a fatiguing war. HHH couldn't get up after or celebrate.

It's the build, commentary, and aftermath that are the problem.

I think the biggest issue with the finish isn't so much the time between finisher and count (it's over exaggerated) but the fact that HHH merely put his hand on him.

I will say it's one of the few matches where "working the leg" actually played into the ending since he literally collapsed into perfect pedigree position, though points against it for taking a bitchass Kane version though.

Booker/HHH was a lose/lose situation. Booker had no momentum behind him, but HHH had beaten everyone else and since Austin was booked to wrestle The Rock it left them with no option. They had Booker win by a total shock and tried to really play the underdog angle up but they went too far with the heat. In hindsight (or total foresight) it should have been Shawn Michaels defending the World Championship against Chris Jericho (or in my ideal version of events, Rob Van Dam) with Evolution (provided the Dudleyz don't injure Randy) face off against a credible babyface outfit who all have a bone to pick with Evolution.

Also it meant that HHH's HCTP model had hot pink trunks which was just an eye-sore. It instantly loses a point for that and another for not being made by AKI.

I've touched on Wrestlemania XIX plenty of times, but the entire event is tempered by the state of PPVs and SmackDown in Australia. It very much felt like the WWE pushing SmackDown as the superior brand with Angle/Lesnar as the main event and McMahon/Hogan as the big selling point. The only Raw match with any decent build behind it was Jericho/Michaels. The Rock was amazing during this time period and his segments were among the best I've seen in the WWE, but it was awkward watching the WWE walk back their animosity towards Austin and the feud felt really thrown together.

Bottom line, Austin/Lesnar should have been the main event of Wrestlemania. Brock as the dominant champion runs through everyone but one man, the Texas Rattlesnake Stone Cold Steve Austin.

I always liked the idea behind a clean shaven, bright colored trunks HHH.

Hey we all have our foibles, Taker in zubaz pants should have been a standard look.

Jan 1, 2021 16:45:06 GMT Big Pete said:

Booker/HHH was a lose/lose situation. Booker had no momentum behind him, but HHH had beaten everyone else and since Austin was booked to wrestle The Rock it left them with no option. They had Booker win by a total shock and tried to really play the underdog angle up but they went too far with the heat. In hindsight (or total foresight) it should have been Shawn Michaels defending the World Championship against Chris Jericho (or in my ideal version of events, Rob Van Dam) with Evolution (provided the Dudleyz don't injure Randy) face off against a credible babyface outfit who all have a bone to pick with Evolution.

Also it meant that HHH's HCTP model had hot pink trunks which was just an eye-sore. It instantly loses a point for that and another for not being made by AKI.

I've touched on Wrestlemania XIX plenty of times, but the entire event is tempered by the state of PPVs and SmackDown in Australia. It very much felt like the WWE pushing SmackDown as the superior brand with Angle/Lesnar as the main event and McMahon/Hogan as the big selling point. The only Raw match with any decent build behind it was Jericho/Michaels. The Rock was amazing during this time period and his segments were among the best I've seen in the WWE, but it was awkward watching the WWE walk back their animosity towards Austin and the feud felt really thrown together.

Bottom line, Austin/Lesnar should have been the main event of Wrestlemania. Brock as the dominant champion runs through everyone but one man, the Texas Rattlesnake Stone Cold Steve Austin.

Jan 1, 2021 16:47:27 GMT @ness said:

I always liked the idea behind a clean shaven, bright colored trunks HHH.

Lump me in this camp. But I'd call HHH's WMXIX trunks more of a pastel lavender than a hot pink. Also, part of me got some Greg Valentine vs. Junkyard Dog vibes from this match. Maybe they were going for an homage to the first-ever IC title match at Mania like HBK/Y2J were going for a bit of a Savage/Steamboat homage? I dunno...

Anyway, I fucking LOVE Big Pete's idea for Lesnar/Austin as THE main event at WMXIX. Absolutely should've happened. With Rock setting aside his personal beefs to give us Rock/HBK as a co-main event. Or, if Rock can't do that, then Rock/Lesnar II with the face and heel dynamics now reversed and Austin/Hogan.