The jury is out until January 4th. In ROH, White was never allowed to be anything more than a low level mid-card talent. He had strong fundamentals, but outside of being from New Zealand, there was nothing that stood out about him. In fact, the only references they made to his home country is the odd Kiwi reference which is really bottom of the barrel stuff. I don't really blame Jay White at all, ROH had no interest in using him and when they finally paired him up with the MCMG it was all too late. That's one area where I would like to see ROH improve. They get these guys like EVIL and Roppongi 3K and just throw them on the card without any angles or any hooks to get the fans interested.

Jay White is alright. He has potential. Enjoyed his matches for the most part but Pete is right about his lack of character.

Watched ROH tv last night.

Beer City Bruiser vs. Marty Scurll was sort of ok even if I find Marty Scurll insufferable. I liked Beer City taking big bumps on two missed cannonballs- one to the guardrail and an even bigger one on a missed flip from the apron to the floor. Pretty nutty for a guy that size to be taking bumps like that. Scurll sucked as usual with his stupid bird taunt, randomly doing Gresham's finisher, and inexplicably having to cheat to beat the low card Beer City Bruiser. Good grief. Marty Scurll as Eddie Guerrero is gonna be even worse than regular Marty Scurll. He did nail BCB with a nice umbrella shot though.

I zoned out for most of Motor City Machine Guns vs. Kingdom. The Kingdom has that effect on me unless they're calling people Melvins. I did see some nice MCMG double teams and those Kingdom hacks steal the Twist of Fate-Swanton combo. At least the Guns picked up the victory.

Liked Jay & Mark Briscoe invading Bully Ray's school. Really felt like a pair of maniacs on the loose. Jay in particular seems like a guy who would stab a man in Reno just to watch him die. Dem boys ain't right. It's weird how 2 of the 3 best hyped matches in ROH over the past few years involved part-timers. You have this and Whitmer/Corino with only the Jay Briscoe vs. Jay Lethal title vs. title match being a match that well-hyped involving full timers.

Main event was nuts with Adam Page & Flip Gordon doing their best Ricochet vs. Will Ospreay impersonation. Prediction: Flip is gonna be the big breakout star of 2018. All he needs is that one match against a trendy guy on a show lots of people watch and he's a made man. Wouldn't shock me at all if he's getting ready to wrestle in the Tokyo Dome or set to debut in NXT this time next year. Flip even won in a shocker. And in keeping with the Ospreay comparison, his finisher was an ultra contrived flippidy doo cutter that was like the 12th coolest thing he did in this match.

Coleman's Pull Pit (misspelling intentional) was a good idea in theory with Coleman interviewing himself but I'm afraid Coleman has the same effect on me that the Kingdom does....and Coleman doesn't even have the automatic cheap pop of calling people Melvins.

Dalton Castle cut a long promo on Cody but, again, The Kingdom Effect was....in effect.

How can someone not enjoy the Party Peacock?

I found Coleman's pulpit hilarious! his goofy facial expressions were great.

I enjoy every Coleman's pulpit. I especially enjoyed the one with Shane taylor

I also loved crazy Mark and Jay. That segment reminded me of the last time The Briscoes were heel cutting awesome promos on The All Night Express.

ROH Wrestling
12/3/17

Beer City Bruiser vs Marty Scurll
This was a surprisingly competitive match-up, given Scurll is one of the biggest stars of the promotion and Bruiser is merely a lackey. They played into the size difference well, with Scurll unable to hit his signature offence, while Bruiser couldn't quite wipe Scurll out with a cannonball. The finish saw Bruiser wipe the official out with an attempted body splash in the corner, and Scurll belted him with an umbrella. Scurll's opponent at Final Battle, looked on from the entrance way.
Winner via pinfall: Marty Scurll
Rating: ** 1/2

They aired a lengthy video package where Dalton Castle went through his run to the championship and his history with Cody.

They aired a segment where The Briscoes invaded the Dudley Boyz wrestling school, beat up a few of the students and destroyed a bunch of memorabilia while calling out Bully.

This was followed by Coleman's Pulpit where he interviewed himself about his upcoming match against Kenny King on next week's television show. The basic gist of the promo is that he felt like he deserved an opportunity at the championship and felt King was undeserving, calling him a ho.

ROH Tag Team Championship Match
The Kingdom (TK O'Ryan & Vinny Marseglia) vs. The Motor City Machine Guns (Alex Shelley & Chris Sabin)
The Machine Guns dominated early, hitting a bunch of trademark doubleteam offence before The Kingdom hit their Cutter/Redrum combination (aka Twist of Fate/Senton Bomb) and nearly pulled out the victory. After a couple of near falls, the Kingdom got frustrated and resorted to pulling out weapons. Marseglia distracted the referee by pulling out an axe, only for O'Ryan to nail him with the baseball bat. MCMG capitilised and hit Marseglia with a double team inverted electric chair.
Winners via pinfall: The Motor City Machine Guns.
Rating: ** 1/2

Hangman Page vs. Flip Gordon
A pretty impressive showing here from Flip Gordon as he dictated the pace of the match and put Page away very convincingly. After the match, the Young Bucks did their Being The Elite shtick and laid Gordon out with a superkick. For a guy with only two years experience, Gordon has plenty of offence, if he can build on it, it won't be long until he ends up in NXT or NJPW.
Winner via pinfall: Flip Gordon
Rating: ** 3/4

After the match they cut backstage to Cody watching the monitors. He called Flip Gordon naive for thinking he could beat the Young Bucks for the 6-Man Championship and compared his naivety to Dalton Castles.

ROH Wrestling
12/10/17

The show opened with a recap of the Kenny King/Caprice Coleman feud.

ROH Television Championship Match
Caprice Coleman (w/Shane Taylor) vs. Kenny King (c)
Before the match, Shane Taylor accompanied Coleman to the entrance ramp and accepted a cheque to be Coleman's muscle for the match. Silas Young was on commentary to call what was largely a one-sided match. Coleman dominated the majority of the match with no assistance from Taylor, but couldn't put King away. King eventually rallied and when Taylor tried to interfere, King laid him out with a tope. Caprice tried to capitilise but it was to no avail as King put him away with the Royal Flush.
Winner via pinfall: Kenny King
Match Rating: ** 1/2

After the match, Punisher Martinez and Shane Taylor laid out King. Silas Young raced to the ring to join them and they all ended up brawling as Caprice looked on with a smile on his face.

The Addiction made their way to ring-side and cut a promo about their confrontation with War Machine two weeks ago. They mentioned that Raymond Rowe had been suspended for laying out the fan, but they demanded that War Machine should be fired for their antics. As soon as Daniels passed the mic onto Kazarian, Hansen came out and attacked both men from behind. Eventually the numbers game became too much and they tied Hanson to the rope with electrical tape. This led to Daniels bringing out a box cutter which he used to cut a piece of Hansen's beard. As soon as he threated he was going to go Reservoir Dogs on Hansen and give him the Van Gough treatment, security came out and The Addiction headed for the hills as Hansen broke free.

This was followed by an in-ring promo from The Briscoes who called Bully Ray out for a fight. Bully and Tommy both answered the challenge but before they could enter the ring, Joe Koff brought a bunch of security to ring-side to hold them off. The Briscoes bagged Bully and Tommy out for taking orders from a short old man, which aggrivated Koff and he confronted the Briscoes in the ring. He announced at Final Battle there would be a No Holds Barred match between The Briscoes & Bully Ray/Tommy Dreamer which led to a big all-in brawl between the two teams.

Matt Taven (w/TK O'Ryan and Vinny Marseglia) vs. Jay Lethal
Marty Scurll came out to call the match in lieu of his PPV match against Lethal. This was very similar match to the Jay White/Matt Taven match from three weeks to go, where his opponent dominated the opening exchanges only for the Kingdom to turn the tables. Unlike that match, there wasn't any stupidity from the Kingdom and they actually helped Taven out. Eventually the match came down to Scurll running down to ringside right as Lethal was looking to put Taven away. Scurll gave Lethal an umbrella to hit Taven with and after a pregnant pause, Lethal threw the umbrella back to Scurll. This gave Taven enough time to roll Lethal up and get the victory. One of the storylines Scurll was putting over on commentary is that he was a fan of Jay Lethal when he was the World and Television Champion (aka a heel) and wanted to see him return to those roots.
Winner via pinfall: Matt Taven
Rating: **

Final segment of the show saw Cody and Dalton Castle sign for their upcoming match up at Final Battle. Cody came to ringside dressed in a big fur coat, and was accompanied by his beautiful wife and two staff members carrying champagne and cheese. Cody didn't take the signing seriously and was just there out of obligation more than anything else. Dalton Castle grabbed the microphone and told Cody he would break his heart by winning the ROH Championship. He then told Cody that he looked forward to Cody joining the company since he would draw more attention to the promotion. However, he's since come to realise that he's nothing but a boy and he doesn't deserve to be ROH Champion. Both men got off their seats, stared each other down as Cody held the ROH Championship high above the air.

Card for Final Battle 2017

ROH World Championship
Dalton Castle vs. "The American Nightmare" Cody (c)

New York Street Fight
The Briscoes vs. Bully Ray & Tommy Dreamer

ROH Television Championship
Four Way Elimination Match
Punisher Martinez vs. Shane Taylor vs. Silas Young vs. Kenny King (c)

Jay Lethal vs Marty Scurll

The Addicton vs. War Machine

Matt Taven vs. Will Ospreay

ROH World Tag Team Championship
Best Friends vs. The Motor City Machine Guns (c)

ROH 6-Man Tag Team Championship
Flip Gordon & Titan & Dragon Lee vs. The Hung Bucks (c)

That's a pretty decent show on paper. While the television hasn't been that strong leading into the event, I'd imagine most of the matches are what the fans wanted to see and it's difficult to see anything dissapointing. While Dalton Castle finally winning the ROH World Championship would be a big moment for the company, arguably the most anticipated math is the 6-Man Tag Team Championship. There is no bigger non-WWE act in America right now than the Young Bucks and watching them go up against two of the best luchadores and one of the most athletic guys in the industry right now will rile the crowds up like nobody's business. Plus since this is an existing storyline from their webseries, I'm sure this will have more heat than most matches including the World Championship match.

I'd imagine that the Hung Bucks would have to go over there, since Lee and Titan aren't full-time. MCMG vs. Best Friends could go either way, but considering Beretta's effort to become a singles guy, you'd imagine MCMG will carry the belts longer. It's an interesting dilemna for the MCMG who many would have considered the best non-WWE tag team however many years ago. At this stage of the game, they sort of feel like a nostalgia act, despite hitting what should be the prime of their careers. At one point in time, the ROH Tag Team Championship was the highlight of the entire promotion, but right now with MCMG and the Addiction and the Berreta team and the Rhett Titus team it feels stale. Taven/Ospreay is just an excuse to get Ospreay onto the show. Considering how featured Taven is on the show, it would make sense for him to go over here and build him up for a ROH Championship match, but I expect Will to go over. It's a shame for ROH that he isn't an exclusive talent because Will Ospreay/Cody for the ROH Championship would be a much bigger deal than the alternative. Similarly, War Machine should do the honours for The Addiction and enjoy their time in NJPW. Their run as a tag team in ROH feels like an after thought and unless they're going to be brought in as singles, they've achieved everything they could have in ROH. Scurll/Lethal is another thrown together match that should be bigger than what it is. ROH has really cooled down on Lethal as of late who probably needed to go to Impact, NXT or Evolve to get a change of scenary. It's a shame for Lethal, because when he's used properly he's one of the better overall talents they have on the roster. Scurll is one of the biggest stars on the roster, but feels pidgeon holed as the Bullet Club's junior heavyweight representative.

ROH has really been riding the Kenny King reality train hard, but this show is as good as any to go down another path. If it was up to me, I'd give it to Punisher Martinez since they seem hellbent on grooming the guy for a run and the others don't need it. The NY Street Fight should have a fair amount of heat and really it could go either way without it mattering too much. I'd imagine the Briscoes will go over since Tommy is in Bully's corner and he was born to lose, but they could win and it wouldn't hurt anybody. Finally there's the main event, where Dalton going over would be huge, but Cody's run barely got off the ground. Given the state of the company, Dalton as champion opens up more possibilities and would certainly generate more buzz. However, Cody is also the safe pick and ROH has been doing good business under him.

i'm just sad i will miss Cody vs Dalton and the tag team street fight

I thought The Kingdom was Michael Bennett and some other guy. Or is it just one big stable made up of a bunch of different tag teams? Over the years I'm sure I've seen The Kingdom name attached to a lot of different wrestlers.

The Kingdom was originally Adam Cole, Mike Bennett, Matt Taven and Maria Kannellis. Austin Aries joined for a brief period, but left the promotion shortly after to join NXT before they could get to their Cole/Aries match-up.

At Final Battle 2015, Matt Taven & Mike Bennett lost the ROH Tag Team Championships to War Machine in a matter of minutes after Taven tore his ACL. This also happened to be Bennett's and Kannellis' last ROH show as they joined TNA not long after.

When Matt Taven returned, he reformed The Kingdom with two new faces guys - TK O'Ryan and Vinny Marseglia. TK O'Ryan is every junior heavyweight with shoulder length hair ever, and Vinny Marseglia is what happens when you make Enzo Amore a member of Sanity and reduce every promo to having crazy eyes. Bake likes to compare them to X-Factor and it's a pretty apt comparison. Unfortunately they're all over television despite Matt Taven working the same formula that made Jinder Mahal so popular with the IWC. Unfortunately they're all over the television and Taven has been the most over-pushed guy the past 4 years.

Dec 13, 2017 16:43:34 GMT Emperor said:

I thought The Kingdom was Michael Bennett and some other guy. Or is it just one big stable made up of a bunch of different tag teams? Over the years I'm sure I've seen The Kingdom name attached to a lot of different wrestlers.

when was the last time you watched ROH?

Thanks for the info, Pete!

Dec 13, 2017 17:25:24 GMT Big Pete said:

Vinny Marseglia is what happens when you make Enzo Amore a member of Sanity and reduce every promo to having crazy eyes.

:lol:

Dec 13, 2017 18:07:11 GMT Mistress said:

when was the last time you watched ROH?

I haven't watched ROH since the days of Danielson's title reign. But I keep up with the ROH thread and any ROH reviews that pop up in the review thread. The Kingdom had a brief run in NJPW in 2015. That was Bennett and Taven. So seeing Pete post "The Kingdom" with two names I've never heard of threw me off a little. I also knew Adam Cole had some association with them at some point but didn't know the details.

Emperor, i was curious since you didnt realize theres a new kingdom lol

i like Taven's Kingdom. theyre fun.

The great Matt Hardy was also in an early version of the Kingdom.

I caught some of Coleman/King from this week's episode before distractions set in. Coleman crotching himself on a top rope frankensteiner attempt due to King moving was boss. Don't remember ever seeing that before. I'm also still a sucker for Coleman's rolling northern light suplexes.

I completely forgot about Matt Hardy's 'blink and you'll miss it' run with the Kingdom. If memory serves, hadn't he been teaming with Cole and Bennett for a minute and then by the time he had one foot out the door they started going by The Kingdom? Then Matt left, which brought Taven into the picture.

I don't like the new belt. Just saying. The previous belt was my favourite belt in a very long time.

Dec 14, 2017 3:08:42 GMT Big Pete said:

I completely forgot about Matt Hardy's 'blink and you'll miss it' run with the Kingdom. If memory serves, hadn't he been teaming with Cole and Bennett for a minute and then by the time he had one foot out the door they started going by The Kingdom? Then Matt left, which brought Taven into the picture.

I thought Matt Hardy was with the Kingdom for a few months before he left? But perhaps I'm wrong on that one.

Steve Corino as Matt Hardy fanboy on commentary was a fun little thing they had going on back then.

Taven joined when a few months after Hardy left Bennett kept promising "Matt is returning" only it turned out to be Taven, not Hardy  :lol:  Solid 9/10 troll move right there. 

After initially dismissing them, I grew to appreciate the Bennett/Taven team. Probably because they were the rare ROH act to get real heel heat at times. They also took some good beatings, even if they did suck on offense. And Maria was a perfectly acceptable Sensational Sherri. I didn't love 'em or anything but it's probably the most I ever liked either guy.

Never thought Cole really fit in with the Kingdom. Bennett & Taven were more like heel heels whereas Cole was more of a cool heel. Even back then I thought obnoxious try hard Cole would be a much better fit for the Bullet Club than the Kingdom. 

Fwiw I never liked AJ Styles in the Bullet Club either. AJ doing played out 90s taunts always seemed so forced.

I thought Matt Hardy was with the Kingdom for a few months before he left? But perhaps I'm wrong on that one.

We'll settle this...on CageMatch.com!

www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=99&page=4&year=2014&promotion=4

They started teaming together in April, but they didn't go by The Kingdom until July, at which point Matt left to become a full-time guy on TNA. So really, you're right but there's a reason why I barely remember Matt being apart of the Kingdom. I was more familiar with him being in S.C.U.M. since it gave me further reason to tune out of the show.

Taven joined when a few months after Hardy left Bennett kept promising "Matt is returning" only it turned out to be Taven, not Hardy :lol: Solid 9/10 troll move right there.

After initially dismissing them, I grew to appreciate the Bennett/Taven team. Probably because they were the rare ROH act to get real heel heat at times. They also took some good beatings, even if they did suck on offense. And Maria was a perfectly acceptable Sensational Sherri. I didn't love 'em or anything but it's probably the most I ever liked either guy.

One of the best ROH shows of 2015 saw them work the Briscoes in a 2/3 Falls match. It was easily the best match I saw those guys in and I bought into the Kingdom for a minute. Then they went to NJPW where the entire match was filmed from behind Maria's ass.

Never thought Cole really fit in with the Kingdom. Bennett & Taven were more like heel heels whereas Cole was more of a cool heel. Even back then I thought obnoxious try hard Cole would be a much better fit for the Bullet Club than the Kingdom.

Cole's run in the Kingdom ran out of steam quickly. I liked the idea of giving him a stable, but the timing didn't work out. Before they could build chemistry, Cole had to drop the belt and was sidelined for a fair while in 2015. They teased a break-up angle and although they never went through with it, Cole started teaming with reDragon which felt like the better fit.

Fwiw I never liked AJ Styles in the Bullet Club either. AJ doing played out 90s taunts always seemed so forced.

I agree, but that was a part of the appeal. NJPW were desperate in the wake of Prince Devitt's departure and needed to fill the void ASAP. They brought in AJ, made him the star of the Bullet Club and put the IWGP Championship on him right away. At the time, it worked out nicely because AJ may have been the ace, but Karl Anderson was the leader. AJ was this amazing wrestler they brought in from the states...who also happened to be a giant dork. It was very similar to Kurt Angle circa 2000. Karl Anderson was the real face of the stable and he usually led the promos.

I still don't know how I feel about the Bullet Club. They're the biggest stable in Pro Wrestling and have a Hart Foundation esque following...but there's a self-awareness to the act that puts me off. In a movie, most people would call it bad acting, but for whatever reason The Bullet Club seems to get a free pass for their antics. I guess after watching 30 for 30, nobody wants to see anymore method acting in Pro Wrestling?

"The American Nightmare" Cody...This was the name they came up with and thought it would be good. I mean American Nightmare is bad ass but then you follow it up with "Cody" the pussiest of all male names? It just sounds weird every time they say it. I understand that maybe he couldn't use Cody Rhodes due to some legal WWE bullshit but what would have been wrong with Cody "The American Nightmare" Runnels or maybe just "The American Nightmare" but throwing "Cody" at the end of it just never sat well with me. With all that said, Cody is killing it as ROH champ.

Kind of a bummer to see how vanilla they have turned Jay Lethal.

Still loving myself some Scurll. He's easily one of the best 3 on the roster behind Cody and Dalton. I suspect WWE will be calling for his services sooner rather than later. Same can be said for Flip Gordon. Flip is that perfect talent that will go to waste on 205 Live a year or two from now.

Dec 16, 2017 0:54:13 GMT vendrell said:

"The American Nightmare" Cody...This was the name they came up with and thought it would be good. I mean American Nightmare is bad ass but then you follow it up with "Cody" the pussiest of all male names? It just sounds weird every time they say it. I understand that maybe he couldn't use Cody Rhodes due to some legal WWE bullshit but what would have been wrong with Cody "The American Nightmare" Runnels or maybe just "The American Nightmare" but throwing "Cody" at the end of it just never sat well with me. 
Kind of a bummer to see how vanilla they have turned Jay Lethal.

 Scurll. I suspect WWE will be calling for his services sooner rather than later. Same can be said for Flip Gordon. Flip is that perfect talent that will go to 205 Live a year or two from now.

I agree with all of this.

After all this time I still keep expecting them to say "Rhodes" every time Cody is announced. Just plain Cody doesn't sound right.

Final Battle is underway.

Opening match is Will Ospreay versus Matt Taven.

Taven's entrance saw a bunch of conspiracy figures like the Lizardman appear on the entrance ramp, only to be 'murdered' by TK O'Ryan & Vinny Marseglia.

Matt Taven def. Will Ospreay

This was a lot stiffer than you'd expect. Both guys are very athletic, and that was certainly on display, but there were a lot of strikes that looked brutal and added to the match. Ospreay kept going after O'Ryan & Marseglia with big dives onto the outside, but it ended up being his undoing as it gave Taven time to regroup. The finish saw Ospreay go for an Ozcutter, only for Taven to catch him and turn it into the Climax for the win.

That may have been the best Taven match I've seen, and it seems like he's in line for a big push in 2018.

Addiction versus War Machine coming up.

War Machine def. The Addiction

The majority of the match saw The Addiction work over Rowe, until he was able to make a hot-tag to Hanson. Both teams then started trading high spots, until War Machine were able to win with the Fallout.

Marty Scurll versus Jay Lethal coming up.

Jay Lethal def. Marty Scurll

Story of the match saw Scurll resorting to heel tactics, only for Lethal to out-smart him. They did an Eddie Guerrero spot, where Scurll tried to dupe the referee, but Lethal countered by wrapping the chair around his own neck. Then later on, Lethal distracted Sinclair by tossing the umbrella to the other side of the ring, hit Scurll with a low blow and then hit a Lethal Injection for the win.

Next up, the Motor City Machine Guns vs. Best Friends.

The Motor City Machine Guns def. Best Friends

This was a really flat match. The Machine Guns combined well and there were was some good back and forth action, but it wasn't always smooth. What probably hurt the match is that they did a bunch of comedy based on the Best Friends homo tendancies and it didn't get over. The finish was also pretty lame, with Sabin no-selling a piledriver from Chucky T and hitting a jacknife cover on Baretta for the surprise finish.

Punisher Martinez vs. Silas Young vs. Shane Taylor vs. Kenny King coming up. Martinez just came out with his 'legion' who worshiped him in the middle of the ring.

I can't imagine the Lethal/Scurll feud being over...unless one of them has secretly signed with WWE/NXT, which wouldn't surprise me. It struck me as odd that two of their bigger stars would have their first match as basically a throwaway in the midcard of a pay per view. Feels like that should be a bigger deal. Lethal going over was also a bit of a shock. I figured Scurll would take this since he's one of the hotter guys on the scene right now....basically where Lethal was about two years ago.

Only match I really had any desire to see was Briscoes vs. Dreamer & Bully Ray. I guess Scurll/Lethal would have been a distant #2.

Dec 16, 2017 3:22:25 GMT Big Pete said:

The Motor City Machine Guns def. Best Friends

This was a really flat match. The Machine Guns combined well and there were was some good back and forth action, but it wasn't always smooth. What probably hurt the match is that they did a bunch of comedy based on the Best Friends homo tendancies and it didn't get over. The finish was also pretty lame, with Sabin no-selling a piledriver from Chucky T and hitting a jacknife cover on Baretta for the surprise finish.

Meltzer's take on this is gold aside from the botched "Chuckie."

"Weird finish. Cnuckie piledrove Sabin and then Sabin pinned Baretta with a jackknife cradle. It reads weird because it was weird."

Silas Young won the ROH TV Championship.

I missed the majority of the match, but it basically came down to to Young & Martinez. Punisher did an Undertaker dive and may have hurt himself in the process and Young won with the Misery.

Briscoes vs Bully/Dreamer up now.

Silas Young as champ? Awesome!!