Post your random wrestling thoughts here.

Let's face it. We've needed this thread for years rather than using the Match Review thread as our dumping ground. I'll start with a series of related topics that have been on my mind for ages...

How did Jim Cornette ever become a "body guy?" Here's a man who grew up idolizing Jerry Lawler, became famous in the first place by managing the likes of Bobby Eaton, Dennis Condrey, Tom Prichard & Jimmy Del Ray, and used "normal" looking wrestlers in SMW while consciously promoting it as Not Mainstream Wrestling. Corny also spent years railing against Hogan Era WWF for featuring so many limited musclemen while treating the old territory days where most wrestlers had roughly the physique of Dick Murdoch as the Golden Age of Professional Wrestling. Yet from OVW onward he seems to want every wrestler to look like Lex Luger. I don't get it.

Ditto for Johnny Ace. Ace made his bones in All Japan with Misawa, Kawada, Taue, and Hansen on top of an intensely in ring focused promotion. Yet as head of WWE Talent Relations he spent all his time hiring Randy Orton lookalikes and female models regardless of their in ring abilities. 

Then you have Triple H on the opposite end of the spectrum from Corny & Ace. Trips is pretty much the ultimate WWE Guy. Yet his pet project, NXT, was basically a supersized workrate indie, which is the antithesis of what WWE had always been. 

Any theories? My best guest is Ace hired the type of people he thought the boss would want for job security reasons, while Trips figured he had enough autonomy to do what he wanted even if it was a radical departure from what WWE had always been, and the style of wrestling we all assumed Trips would prefer. As for Cornette's 180, my best guess is WWF wanted a certain type of wrestler in OVW, and Corny just bought into it?
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I've spent even longer wondering about how WWE chooses their backstage agents. It's really weird if you give it just a few seconds of thought. Most of the long lasting ex-wrestler suits were low midcarders or guys who rarely, if ever, competed in WWF.

Hayes had one failed cup of coffee in the mid 80s. Finlay never worked for the company until he was in his mid 40s and technically retired. Noble was a low midcarder. Jerry Brisco was nearing retirement when he finally came to WWF. Kidman was another low midcarder. By all accounts Tony Garea was basically the Tom Zenk of his era. Malenko was almost 40 when he finally came in as a package deal with the Radicals. He never made it beyond the low midcard and WWF thought so highly of his wrestling ability in the 80s that they.....made him a referee. Longtime trainer Tom Prichard is another one who took years to make it to WWF and never got beyond the low midcard when they finally did bring him in. The aforementioned Johnny Ace never even worked for the company as an active wrestler.

Yet all these guys who "weren't good enough" to sniff much of a WWF push, or even get hired in some cases, suddenly become trusted deputies tasked with training wrestlers and/or laying out their matches upon retirement? This has always been strange to me. If they were so good, why no WWF push? Or even a WWE career in some cases? Is it just a case of them being "good hands" who were lacking the star qualities WWF always looked for? Or might it be the old "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" adage? Like how backup catchers and career minor leaguers tended to rule the MLB managerial ranks while former All Stars typically flopped as the skipper?

My theory about Triple H is that he's a careerist that basically believes in nothing. It's not that he loves the aughts-indie style, he was just trying to pander to the hardcore fans to position himself as the successor. Triple H's tastes, funny enough, seems to just be 1980s territory wrestling, while Vince's tastes are 1980s Vince McMahon wrestling, which is a problem for a wrestling company when those are the two main visions in the year of 2021.

Bret Hart has buried many agents with similar complaints, and it always makes me laugh. Just that wonderful Bret Hart perplexed dismissive thing. The best.

Sept 10, 2021 2:14:36 GMT Baker said:

Post your random wrestling thoughts here.

Let's face it. We've needed this thread for years rather than using Match Review thread as our dumping ground. I'll start with a series of related topics that have been on my mind for years...

How did Jim Cornette ever become a "body guy?" Here's a man who grew up idolizing Jerry Lawler, became famous in the first place by managing the likes of Bobby Eaton, Dennis Condrey, Tom Prichard & Jimmy Del Ray, and used "normal" looking guys in SMW while consciously promoting it as Not Mainstream Wrestling. Corny also spent years railing against Hogan Era WWF for featuring so many limited musclemen while treating the old territory days where most wrestlers had roughly the physique of Dick Murdoch as the Golden Age of Professional Wrestling. Yet from OVW onward he seems to want every wrestler to look like Lex Luger. I don't get it.

Ditto for Johnny Ace. Ace made his bones in All Japan with the likes of Misawa, Kawada, Taue, and Hansen on top. Yet as head of WWE Talent Relations he spent all his time hiring Randy Orton lookalikes and female models regardless of their in ring abilities. 

Then you have Triple H on the opposite end of the spectrum from Corny & Ace. Trips is pretty much the ultimate WWE Guy. Yet his pet project, NXT, was basically a supersized workrate indie, which is antithesis of what WWE had always been. 

Any theories? My best guest is Ace hired the type of people he thought the boss would want for job security reasons, while Trips figured he had enough autonomy to do what he wanted even if it was a radical departure from what WWE had always been, and the style of wrestling we all assumed Trips would prefer. As for Cornette's 180, my best guess is WWF wanted a certain type of wrestler in OVW, and Corny just bought into it?
================
I've spent even longer wondering about how WWE chooses their backstage agents. It's really weird if you give it just a few seconds of thought. Most of the long lasting ex-wrestler suits were low midcarders or guys who rarely, if ever, competed in WWF.

Hayes had one failed cup of coffee in the mid 80s. Finlay never worked for the company until he was in his mid 40s and technically retired. Noble was a low midcarder. Jerry Brisco was nearing retirement when he finally came to WWF. Kidman was another low midcarder. By all accounts Tony Garea was basically the Tom Zenk of his era. Malenko was almost 40 when he finally came in as a package deal with the Radicals. He never made it beyond the low midcard and WWF thought so highly of his wrestling ability in the 80s that they.....made him a referee. Longtime trainer Tom Prichard is another one who took years to make it to WWF and never got beyond the low midcard when they finally did bring him in. The aforementioned Johnny Ace never even worked for the company as an active wrestler.

Yet all these guys who "weren't good enough" to sniff much of a WWF push, or even get hired in some cases, suddenly become trusted deputies tasked with training wrestlers and/or laying out their matches upon retirement? This has always been strange to me. If they were so good, why no WWF push? Or even a WWE career in some cases? Is it just a case of them being "good hands" who were lacking the star qualities WWF always looked for? Or might it be the old "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach" adage? Like how backup catchers and career minor leaguers tended to rule the MLB managerial ranks while former All Stars typically flopped as the skipper?

Well, with Jim Cornette I think it's more guys who could beat the piss out of you over pure muscleheads. At the core of his beef is that wrestling has gone away from the more conflict based stuff and morphed into an "artform." Seeing 180 pound guys with literal babyfaces on a week in week out basis just exasperates the problem. His time in OVW though could have compromised but then again he still thinks John Cena is a legit great talent even though he's the antithesis of what he likes to see in a pro wrestler. That's the real head scratcher.



Triple H is just the ultimate leech, leeching off HBK, leeching off Flair, leeching off McMahon and his daughter, leeching off the indy darling trend. He's always "the other guy" in the popular crowd, he's a coat tail rider. It's not surprising in the least he would try and win favor by trying to present a different product than the main WWE shows with the veil of indy darlings populating the roster.



I also don't get the backstage agent selection. I remember Animal a few years back having similar sentiments, do you want to learn from a mid card guy or a guy who was at the top of the card and learned how to effectively draw money? For the record Animal was rejected by his own brother as a backstage agent due to Vince's edict  mandate (Jesus, I'm even using Vinceisms now, yuck) on nepotism. Arn Anderson and Ricky Steamboat really were the only guys they had who checked the boxes of what we think of as a suitable teacher.

When NXT decided to shift it's focus to "independent" wrestlers, the likely reasoning was that eventually someone else was going to do it - or eventually do it well. Because TNA didn't. 

I'd bet, internally it was discussed, the chances of someone taking what was happening at the time in particularly NJPW and launching it state-side as a real prospect. And obviously, that was a real reality, with NJPW attempting to break into the US during that period and on a hot streak with Okada, Omega and the pop-cultural significance of Bullet Club. NJPW did make the jump, except the hottest act in the company did it independently and became AEW. 

NXT could have been a way to stop or hinder NJPW breaking into the US, and utilizing American talent - why else would WWE give Karl Anderson $700,000 a year and sign so many guys you never intended on using?

That would have been Triple H's big strategic move. And would explain why he's got so much heat today for failing to fight off AEW, and NXT has been killed off in the wake of AEW's success. 

Ric Flair comes off like such a loser begging Curt Henning to join The Horsemen.

Saw a 30something guy wearing a Wrestlemania XIV shirt at the store today. Amazing. 99% sure it was this shirt...



Though I still don't think that beats the 40ish year old woman I saw wearing a straight outta 1999 Road Dogg shirt a few months back.

I'm 38 years & I still want an ECW politically incorrect T-shirt.

This reminds me...

Joining UT for his Superstars watch-along inspired my impulse to buy this Sid Justice t-shirt:

They always hook the outside leg when pinning unless they are close to the ropes and then do the other leg, telegraphing they'll get their foot on the rope and the commentators can verbally rub one out about "ring awareness".

Sept 21, 2021 20:33:53 GMT 🤯 said:

This reminds me...

Joining UT for his Superstars watch-along inspired my impulse to buy this Sid Justice t-shirt:

Wow that’s not how I pictured 🤯.

Sept 21, 2021 22:36:32 GMT UT said:

Sept 21, 2021 20:33:53 GMT 🤯 said:

This reminds me...

Joining UT for his Superstars watch-along inspired my impulse to buy this Sid Justice t-shirt:

Wow that’s not how I pictured 🤯.

Close enough approximation.

The stache makes him look like a Dad. My Dad used to sport one of those catepillars.

Sept 21, 2021 19:52:06 GMT Ed said:

I'm 38 years & I still want an ECW politically incorrect T-shirt.

Nice. I'm sure you can still find one. There are several sites specializing in selling old school wrestling merchandise.

Now I'm trying to remember whether my cousin had that shirt or some other ECW shirt. I think it was that one, but can't remember for sure. I know he had the Sandman "Budweiser" shirt, a Sabu pointing to the sky shirt, and a New Jack "187" shirt.

Sept 21, 2021 20:33:53 GMT 🤯 said:

This reminds me...

Joining UT for his Superstars watch-along inspired my impulse to buy this Sid Justice t-shirt:

Tremendous.

Sept 21, 2021 22:58:49 GMT @ness said:

The stache makes him look like a Dad. My Dad used to sport one of those catepillars.

Mine still does! He's been mustachioed my entire life. Not gonna lie. I'm leery of any dad who never had a mustache. The 'stache was the Mark of the Dad growing up in the 80s & 90s. 

Back to wrestling shirts...If I ever get another one chances are high it will be one of these two beauts...

SPOILER: Click to show

{Spoiler}

Dads of a certain age (my dad) grew the 'stache into a goatee in the mid '90s and never looked back, they will fucking die with that goatee, it's never getting shaved.

Huge missed opportunity in 2001 going with "Alliance" as the name for the invaders.

The Northern home team was the WWF. World Wrestling Federation.

What's the opposite of a Federation? A confederation.

Kinda like how the Confederacy was the opposition to the Federal government.

A bunch of invaders from the South fighting for their rights... Seems like a no-brainer to Bill them as Confederates of the Confederation.

Then I guess Booker T just has to turn face post haste and turn against his fellow WCW rasslers.

Was looking to fill out a round of gifs when I was reminded of the Hart Brothers having great piledrivers. Excellence of Execution indeed. And Owen's brother was also pretty good!

Anybody know when Shawn Michaels settled on the Superkick as a finisher? I remember him using the Piledriver for a while, and the rest of the internet remembers him using that stupid Teardrop Suplex, but I'm not sure when his Superkick became a big thing. My guess was October-November '94. Knocking Diesel out with it twice is when it first got over with me. But the first search result claims it goes all the way back to the Barber Shop Window incident with Marty. That can't be right...

Oct 5, 2021 2:24:58 GMT Baker said:

Was looking to fill out a round of gifs when I was reminded of the Hart Brothers having great piledrivers. Excellence of Execution indeed. And Owen's brother was also pretty good!

Anybody know when Shawn Michaels settled on the Superkick as a finisher? I remember him using the Piledriver for a while, and the rest of the internet remembers him using that stupid Teardrop Suplex, but I'm not sure when his Superkick became a big thing. My guess was October-November '94. Knocking Diesel out with it twice is when it first got over with me. But the first search result claims it goes all the way back to the Barber Shop Window incident with Marty. That can't be right...

They still got it wrong as it was a regular part of his repertoire when he was with the Rockers. Your probably right, I caught enough of 1995 WWF to remember that was when "tuning up the band" became a big thing.

^Yeah, I know he used the Superkick as a Rocker. Pretty sure it was even an occasional match ender when he was going through a revolving door of finishers in 92-93. But I'm curious when it became the iconic Sweet Chin Music we all know and some of us love. For example, I distinctly remember HBK's Superkick being treated as just another mid match move against Bret at Survivor Series '92. Seeing that for the first time during the height of HBK's first big main event face push is one of those odd moments that always stuck with me.

EDIT: Just found proof that Shawn couldn't even get the three count on Bruce Hart with a Superkick at Survivor Series '93. 
==================
Until recently I had never realized how much Hacksaw Jim Duggan borrowed from Bruiser Brody. It's less obvious than John "The Berzerker" Nord's blatant Brody tribute act, but Duggan still took a whole lot from the Bruiser.

Oct 5, 2021 15:11:40 GMT Baker said:

Until recently I had never realized how much Hacksaw Jim Duggan borrowed from Bruiser Brody. It's less obvious than John "The Berzerker" Nord's blatant Brody tribute act, but Duggan still took a whole lot from the Bruiser.

More or less than Renegade took from Warrior?

^Less

Oct 5, 2021 15:11:40 GMT Baker said:

^Yeah, I know he used the Superkick as a Rocker. Pretty sure it was even an occasional match ender when he was going through a revolving door of finishers in 92-93. But I'm curious when it became the iconic Sweet Chin Music we all know and some of us love. For example, I distinctly remember HBK's Superkick being treated as just another mid match move against Bret at Survivor Series '92. Seeing that for the first time during the height of HBK's first big main event face push is one of those odd moments that always stuck with me.

EDIT: Just found proof that Shawn couldn't even get the three count on Bruce Hart with a Superkick at Survivor Series '93. 
==================
Until recently I had never realized how much Hacksaw Jim Duggan borrowed from Bruiser Brody. It's less obvious than John "The Berzerker" Nord's blatant Brody tribute act, but Duggan still took a whole lot from the Bruiser.

To pin point it further this would have been summer/fall 1995 when I was hearing about Sweet Chin Music. I think I caught a mention of it channel surfing around that time and I'm pretty sure it was a thing in that match with Owen Hart when he got concussed since I was at my cousin's house and caught that match as it happened. 1992-1994/95ish though it was just a set-up move for the most part.

Watched a very brief Flair collection on Prime. Speaking of prime, Billy Jack Haynes was fucking jacked in his. Dear fucking god.

Flair v. Lawler with a young Jimmy Hart was a whole lot of fun. I love the studio setup of old school wrestling, but it reminded me of one of my biggest gripes about 80's wrestling:

Interviewers/announcers/authority figures were as boring as dried paint. I get they didn't want to overshadow the much bigger personalities they're trying to put over, but there had to be a better medium than just being "boring white guy in cheap suit with bad toupee #1000".

I'm not sure if that's a product of me just being a fan who grew up on "sports entertainment" rather than "good ole wrasslin'" because I did have to suffer through Jillian Hall and The Coach.

But yeah, production values aren't as much of an issue when watching 80's wrestling for me - it's definitely the shit presentation from guys who should be calling golf games rather than wrestling matches.

I really hope rad is not referring to Memphis great Lance Russell. He's the 2nd best to ever do it imo.

I kind of get where he's coming from through if my supposition does turn out to be true. All the old timers called Gordon Solie the GOAT when I was younger and I always thought he was boring. Only thing I liked about Gordo was the way he pronounced suplex as "suplay." Didn't really come around on Solie until I heard him call a match between Tracy Smothers and A BEAR completely straight. It's hard to top Gordon Solie putting over the natural scientific wrestling skills possessed by bears. It was great. But Lance is still better. He was often the lone voice of reason in Memphis... the anchor that kept the wild and woolly world of Memphis wrestling from going completely off the rails. I kind of like those "friendly uncle" 80s commentators as a whole- Lance, Dave Brown, Bob Caudle, Boyd Pierce, etc. They brought a certain gravitas to the proceedings by not being over the top characters.
===============
Saw an old man wearing a "Creatures of the Night" shirt today. Could this old timer be a vintage Undertaker fan? Or might it simply be a Halloween-related shirt given that we are in the month October? So I swooped in to get a closer look. Turns out it was a wrestling shirt!....but a Jeff Hardy TNA shirt? Well, that was quite the swerve. What was the deal with Jeff Hardy stealing the name of Undertaker's mid 90s fanbase? Fwiw this was the shirt...

Everybody knows "creatures of the night" is in reference to the transformer-esque beetle borgs that make up the Swanton Bomb origin story.

Oct 13, 2021 23:49:12 GMT @ness said:

Everybody knows "creatures of the night" is in reference to the transformer-esque beetle borgs that make up the Swanton Bomb origin story.

Now I am even more confused.

Oct 13, 2021 23:49:57 GMT Baker said:

Oct 13, 2021 23:49:12 GMT @ness said:

Everybody knows "creatures of the night" is in reference to the transformer-esque beetle borgs that make up the Swanton Bomb origin story.

Now I am even more confused.

Sometimes I assume anything Jeff does is just weird Jeff isms. He feels like the person who could write a "biopic" on his finishing moves. Don't tell me Taker doesn't have one for the LAST RIDE. So when Jeff does the swanton I imagine he transforms into 100 billion nanobots.

And maybe Jeff can't keep track of all of Undertaker's stuff. Even as a fan of the business I could keep up completely. Unless it's Booger Red. No excuse for that one.

Oct 13, 2021 23:53:02 GMT @ness said:

Oct 13, 2021 23:49:57 GMT Baker said:

Now I am even more confused.

Sometimes I assume anything Jeff does is just weird Jeff isms. He feels like the person who could write a "biopic" on his finishing moves.  So when Jeff does the swanton I imagine he transforms into 100 billion nanobots.

Aha. Now I understand. This theory makes perfect sense given it's Jeff Hardy we're talking about.

LOL @ Booger Red. I will never tire of laughing at that one. Imagine thinking that would get over in 2002. Major JR fail. 

WCW from 1992 to just before Hulk Hogan arrived was my favorite era of WCW/JCP. I loved Jesse & Tony on commentary, with the Stinger, Steiners & Vader running the promostion.

Oct 14, 2021 0:06:00 GMT Ed said:

WCW from 1992 to just before Hulk Hogan arrived was my favorite era of WCW/JCP. I loved Jesse & Tony on commentary, with the Stinger, Steiners & Vader running the promostion.

I love the Dangerous Alliance but haven't seen a ton of non-DA stuff from 91-92. Really just the big matches, some pay per views like two decades ago, and the awesome January 92 Clash. 

"Favorite WCW/JCP Era?" is a good question. I'm partial to 87-89 with a particular preference for 1989, 93-first half of 94, and roughly September 95-August 96. Gun to my head I'd have to go with 1989. Or November 88-November 89 if we're boiling it down to just one year.

JCP from April 1985 (the start of JCP taking over the Saturday Night slot) to September 1988 (Arn and Tully depart) is such a strong continuous run of great television. WCW from May 1996 to early 1999 would be my other preference, tough to choose between those 2. WCW from fall 1991 to spring 1994 supplies plenty of gems though.