I think a lot of the ‘we didn’t script promos in the good old days’ trope is bullshit. In a lot of these old WCW promos you can see JR and Schiavone miming the promos when guys recite them. At the very least they had ‘make sure you finish with this’.

A few guys simply had more leeway, which is basically how it is today. Now sure things like twitch streams shows even the most dullard of worker has a decent personality, but I'm not sure that will always translate in the ring hence the scripts. Guys that bitch about writers not knowing their character just haven't adapted to the changing business is all.

As far as the Dustin Rhodes discussion it really is a glass half full situation. I'm not familiar with his early WWF/WCW stuff other than he was exposed early but eventually won the fans over. With Goldust it's a situation where he took a lemon and turned it into his most successful run and got far more mileage out of it then he was entitled to. The perfect match to encapsulate that run was the Wrestlemania XII match with Piper which you either hated for being a segmented match or enjoyed for being a proto-Attitude era match or even cinematic match which would become vogue decades later.

There was that horrible Warrior match but I think for the most part he carved a pretty decent niche as a lower mid-card guy who could help put together matches to showcase talent like Sable and Pillman when they had obvious limitations. The Artist Formerly Known As Goldust was largely some of the worst Monday Night Wars content but I'm willing to give him a pass because it's Russo and he was still putting on serviceable matches.

I seriously have no recollection of Dustin after Seven so your summary is spot on. It's odd as well because he clearly appeared on shows I watched...I just have zero memory. I remember Buzzkill and Big Al yet have no memory whatsoever of Dustin.

I have no idea how well it's aged, but Goldust-Booker T were a highlight on Monday Night Raw and they actually had a pretty good tag team division building late in the year. Then they gave him a stuttering gimmick and that was death...somehow Bubba Dudley of all people was the one guy to survive it.

Sorry I'm getting caught in recap mode. I think the thing with Goldust is that he fills a niche on the card with his character work which became really rare post-Attitude era. When he's on he's also really smooth in the ring and has that Randy Orton powerslam that looks fantastic. I think lately he's getting that Dr. Tom Prichard/Norman Smiley/Finlay bump where his training work is getting conflated with his ring-work as well and even then he's getting way too much credit. They have this Brazillian woman called Tay Conti who was really mediocre in the WWE but in AEW they just let her do all these crazy Shibata spots and it's tricked people into thinking she's better than she is and Dustin is getting the credit for that. To add some weight to your argument, even in a promotion like AEW where he has carte blanche he's been put into that player/coach role where his matches hardly matter. After that Cody match which was the ultimate 'you still got it bust out the indie moves and cut yourself' match he really hasn't done anything memorable. The last match I remember was against this muscle guy Comoroto where the bulk of the match happened during the ads and that was the main event. Comoroto is still a job guy who has shown no signs of improvement and I think Dustin is managing one of his students who's just another athletic junior heavyweight type.

I see the complaint but glass half full Goldust is a memorable character who made the most of his character and got way more longevity out of it than he should have. He got a chance to leave fans with a good impression and that's what stuck after it could have gone either way. I'll say this much, I'd take him everyday over Cody who killed his career with one of the most baffling tattoos I've ever seen. That and Cody structures his matches where he has to do one dumbass spot each match to give his opponent a comeback before he hits his sloppy looking finish.

I'm just over here watching Sandman's ECW return....again.
==============
Heel Jerry Lawler vs babyface Roddy Piper sucked in 1994 WWF.
Babyface Jerry Lawler vs. heel Roddy Piper a decade earlier in Memphis would have been amazing.

I hate Jerry Lawler outside of his peak commentary run. Like I'm sure he was great in his heyday and all that, but anything I've tried to go back has just been... what? I get you can't compare what he was doing during his time versus what I saw as I became a fan and going back is just not gonna compare. One thing I hated about iwc culture was the condescending posts you'd see even as recent as the mid 2010s where they'd make claims that he was still better than 90% of the roster in the ring. Eat a dick that isn't even close. Less is more. No it isn't.

Oct 17, 2021 21:03:36 GMT @ness said:

One thing I hated about iwc culture was the condescending posts you'd see even as recent as the mid 2010s where they'd make claims that Lawler was still better than 90% of the roster in the ring. 

IWC finally gets one right after 20 years. #Lawlermania

Oct 17, 2021 21:03:36 GMT @ness said:

I hate Jerry Lawler outside of his peak commentary run. Like I'm sure he was great in his heyday and all that, but anything I've tried to go back has just been... what? I get you can't compare what he was doing during his time versus what I saw as I became a fan and going back is just not gonna compare. One thing I hated about iwc culture was the condescending posts you'd see even as recent as the mid 2010s where they'd make claims that he was still better than 90% of the roster in the ring. Eat a dick that isn't even close. Less is more. No it isn't.

Completely agree. I tried one of those Lawler vs Dundee matches that the ultra-history smarks would give seven stars if they believed in the Meltzer scale...and it was dreadful. But I understand that watching such a match out of context will never work.

That's why modern wrestling is better. Even if you know nothing about the wrestlers, at least you can be entertained by the athleticism and modern production. Seeing two guys with bar-fighter builds punching each other for 20 minutes sucks, no matter how hot the crowd is. You have to be super invested in the wrestlers beforehand. And even if I were super invested, I'd rather watch something a little more than a glorified bar brawl.

The ultra-history smarks would then point out that guys like Lawler were a thousand times better at getting their fans invested than any modern wrestler. Well, perhaps there's a ring of truth to that.

Me reading PW today...

I find Dustin's WCW pretty run boring. It's funny listening to the Between The Sheets podcast. They dissected The Wrestling Observer's bias against Dustin in the early days. You'd think Dustin got a Goldberg push when he started wrestling. Another example of Meltzer being full of shit.

Oct 17, 2021 21:34:36 GMT Emperor said:

Oct 17, 2021 21:03:36 GMT @ness said:

I hate Jerry Lawler outside of his peak commentary run. Like I'm sure he was great in his heyday and all that, but anything I've tried to go back has just been... what? I get you can't compare what he was doing during his time versus what I saw as I became a fan and going back is just not gonna compare. One thing I hated about IWC culture was the condescending posts you'd see even as recent as the mid-2010s where they'd make claims that he was still better than 90% of the roster in the ring. Eat a dick that isn't even close. Less is more. No, it isn't.

Completely agree. I tried one of those Lawler vs Dundee matches that the ultra-history smarks would give seven stars if they believed in the Meltzer scale...and it was dreadful. But I understand that watching such a match out of context will never work.

That's why modern wrestling is better. Even if you know nothing about the wrestlers, at least you can be entertained by the athleticism and modern production. Seeing two guys with bar-fighter builds punching each other for 20 minutes sucks, no matter how hot the crowd is. You have to be super invested in the wrestlers beforehand. And even if I were super invested, I'd rather watch something a little more than a glorified bar brawl.

The ultra-history smarks would then point out that guys like Lawler were a thousand times better at getting their fans invested than any modern wrestler. Well, perhaps there's a ring of truth to that.

Give me Lawler vs Dundee over most Young Bucks matches. It all depends on the execution of what kind of wrestling you're watching. If EVERYTHING was punching and kicking, wrestling would suck. Just like if everything was based on athleticism. Variety is the spice of life.

I'm a Lawler moderate. When he's ranked Top 10 all time (as a wrestler), it feels like a bit much, but without a doubt, one of the greats. Maybe the perfect big fish in a little pond, which I don't mean pejoratively, it's just hard to imagine that working much further than the Memphis area, and YET, it's truly amazing how much he drew, for as long, in Memphis. Bruno gets (rightful) credit for selling out MSG once a month for forever, and that's pretty much what Lawler was doing in Memphis.

Oct 17, 2021 15:57:28 GMT Todd said:

I think a lot of the ‘we didn’t script promos in the good old days’ trope is bullshit. In a lot of these old WCW promos you can see JR and Schiavone miming the promos when guys recite them. At the very least they had ‘make sure you finish with this’.

While not 'scripted' - it's not particularly hard to remember " when the dust settles.. " " in the middle of the ring " " without a shadow of a doubt " 

Scripted promos or not, I do feel like being good on the mic gives one an advantage in getting over. Ambrose and Regal had a great fued in FCW, with only having two matches IIRC, because they built it up on the mic. Even then, in terms of the "Armstrong Family Curse" where none of Bob's sons seemed to be able to get over, the one that broke it was Brian, the least skilled in the ring of his brothers, but the one with the gift of gab.

If anything on promos, I still feel that instead of scripting them, giving a wrestler some bullet points to hit on and then giving him a few minutes to think up what to say will produce a more realistic promo and connect better than having them read a script.

I was gonna make a new thread, but it deserves to be here...

Renaming the entire current AEW roster (not sure how up-to-date it is) with new names that VKM would probably approve of; Because I can and I'm bored:

Aaron Solo >>> JUAN SOLO
Adam Cole >>> LIL BEEBS
Adam "Hangman" Page >>> COWBOY COOL
"5" Alan Angels >>> THE MASKED ALAN
Alex Reynolds >>> A-REYN
Andrade El Idolo >>> ANDRADE FLAIR
Angelico >>> ANGELIBRO
Anthony Bowens >>> A.B.
Anthony Ogogo >>> OH NO NO
Austin Gunn >>> MR. WHAT
Billy Gunn >>> MR. BUTT
Brian Cage >>> BRIAN RAGE
Blade >>> SWORD
Bobby Fish >>> BOBBY FISH
Brandon Cutler >>> B.C. KUTLERY
Brian Pillman Jr. >>> THE NEW CANNON
Bryan Danielson >>> D-BRY
Butcher >>> STABBER
Cash Wheeler >>> DAX DAWSON
Cezar Bononi >>> QUASAR BOLOGNI
Chris Jericho >>> Y2JMAN
Christian Cage >>> CHRISTIAN HARDCASTLE
Christopher Daniels >>> DANIEL CHRISTOPHER
Chuck Taylor >>> TAYLOR CHARLES
CM Punk >>> CM HELL NO
Cody Rhodes >>> DOTDUST
Colt Cabana >>> SCOTTY OLDMAN
Colten Gunn >>> COLTY G
Daniel Garcia >>> DANNY G
Dante Martin >>> D-MART
Darby Allin >>> ARBY DALLIN
Darius Martin >>> DART
Dax Harwood >>> SCOTT WHEELER
Doc Gallows >>> FESTUS
Dustin Rhodes >>> OLDUST
Eddie Kingston >>> KING EDWARD
Ethan Page >>> THE PAGEMASTER
Evil Uno >>> EVIL ONE
Fuego Del Sol >>> FUEGO FIRE
Isiah Kassidy >>> IZZY KASS
Jack Evans >>> J.E. FREE
Jake Hager >>> SUPER SWAGGER
JD Drake >>> DJ DRAKE
Jeff Parker >>> J-PARK
Joey Janela >>> BROEY NOSELLA
John Silver >>> JOHNNY SMALL
Jon Moxley >>> DEAN AM-BRO
Jungle Boy >>> KID AMAZON
Karl Anderson >>> ANDY KARLSON
Kazarian >>> ZAKARIAH
Kenny Omega >>> KENJI FIRE BRO
Kip Sabian >>> JUST KIP
Griff Garrison >>> GARRETT GRIFF
Lance Archer >>> THE ARCHER
Lee Johnson >>> JOHNNY LEE
Lee Moriarty >>> MORIARTY
Lio Rush >>> LIO
Luchasaurus >>> PROFESSOR REX
Luther >>> GANGFAIL
Malakai Black >>> ALEISTER
Marko Stunt >>> RUGBRAT
Marq Quen >>> MARQUEN
Matt Hardy >>> BROTHER HERO
Matt Lee >>> MATT ATTACK
Matt Jackson >>> M-BUCK
Matt Sydal >>> KEVIN BJORN
Max Caster >>> THE PROTOHYPE
Michael Nakazawa >>> NAKAZAWA
Miro >>> RUSEV BEHAVE
MJF >>> THE MAX
Nick Comoroto >>> COMOROTO
Nick Jackson >>> N-BUCK
Orange Cassidy >>> TANGERINE DREAM
Ortiz >>> O-ZONE
"Tall" Paul Wight >>> THE BIG K.O.
PAC >>> ADRIAN
PENTA EL ZERO M >>> LA PENTA
Peter Avalon >>> PETRIE AVENUE
Powerhouse Hobbs >>> POWER HOSS
Pres10 Vance >>> VANCE-10
QT Marshall >>> MARSHALL T.Q.
Rey Fenix >>> THE PHOENIX
Ricky Starks >>> THE RICK
Ryan Nemeth* >>> TROUT ZIGGLER
Sammy Guevara >>> SAMUEL EL G
Santana >>> CARLOS
Scorpio Sky >>> SCORPION DAWN
Serpentico >>> THE SNAKE
Shawn Dean >>> SHAWNY D
Shawn Spears >>> DILLINGER ESCAPE MAN
Sonny Kiss >>> SAMMY LYNN KISS
Sting >>> MILK CROW
Stu Grayson >>> GRAY STU
Trent Beretta >>> RATED R LOWERCARD
Wardlow >>> WARDBRO
Wheeler Yuta >>> THE MATE YUTA

(Too lazy to do the women's roster... Potential part 2 later... RK-Bro is now a large enough stabl to rival the nWo -- you're welcome.)

Oct 22, 2021 0:03:18 GMT rad said:

I was gonna make a new thread, but it deserves to be here...

Renaming the entire current AEW roster (not sure how up-to-date it is) with new names that VKM would probably approve of; Because I can and I'm bored:

Aaron Solo >>> JUAN SOLO
Adam Cole >>> LIL BEEBS
Adam "Hangman" Page >>> COWBOY COOL
"5" Alan Angels >>> THE MASKED ALAN
Alex Reynolds >>> A-REYN
Andrade El Idolo >>> ANDRADE FLAIR
Angelico >>> ANGELIBRO
Anthony Bowens >>> A.B.
Anthony Ogogo >>> OH NO NO
Austin Gunn >>> MR. WHAT
Billy Gunn >>> MR. BUTT
Brian Cage >>> BRIAN RAGE
Blade >>> SWORD
Bobby Fish >>> BOBBY FISH
Brandon Cutler >>> B.C. KUTLERY
Brian Pillman Jr. >>> THE NEW CANNON
Bryan Danielson >>> D-BRY
Butcher >>> STABBER
Cash Wheeler >>> DAX DAWSON
Cezar Bononi >>> QUASAR BOLOGNI
Chris Jericho >>> Y2JMAN
Christian Cage >>> CHRISTIAN HARDCASTLE
Christopher Daniels >>> DANIEL CHRISTOPHER
Chuck Taylor >>> TAYLOR CHARLES
CM Punk >>> CM HELL NO
Cody Rhodes >>> DOTDUST
Colt Cabana >>> SCOTTY OLDMAN
Colten Gunn >>> COLTY G
Daniel Garcia >>> DANNY G
Dante Martin >>> D-MART
Darby Allin >>> ARBY DALLIN
Darius Martin >>> DART
Dax Harwood >>> SCOTT WHEELER
Doc Gallows >>> FESTUS
Dustin Rhodes >>> OLDUST
Eddie Kingston >>> KING EDWARD
Ethan Page >>> THE PAGEMASTER
Evil Uno >>> EVIL ONE
Fuego Del Sol >>> FUEGO FIRE
Isiah Kassidy >>> IZZY KASS
Jack Evans >>> J.E. FREE
Jake Hager >>> SUPER SWAGGER
JD Drake >>> DJ DRAKE
Jeff Parker >>> J-PARK
Joey Janela >>> BROEY NOSELLA
John Silver >>> JOHNNY SMALL
Jon Moxley >>> DEAN AM-BRO
Jungle Boy >>> KID AMAZON
Karl Anderson >>> ANDY KARLSON
Kazarian >>> ZAKARIAH
Kenny Omega >>> KENJI FIRE BRO
Kip Sabian >>> JUST KIP
Griff Garrison >>> GARRETT GRIFF
Lance Archer >>> THE ARCHER
Lee Johnson >>> JOHNNY LEE
Lee Moriarty >>> MORIARTY
Lio Rush >>> LIO
Luchasaurus >>> PROFESSOR REX
Luther >>> GANGFAIL
Malakai Black >>> ALEISTER
Marko Stunt >>> RUGBRAT
Marq Quen >>> MARQUEN
Matt Hardy >>> BROTHER HERO
Matt Lee >>> MATT ATTACK
Matt Jackson >>> M-BUCK
Matt Sydal >>> KEVIN BJORN
Max Caster >>> THE PROTOHYPE
Michael Nakazawa >>> NAKAZAWA
Miro >>> RUSEV BEHAVE
MJF >>> THE MAX
Nick Comoroto >>> COMOROTO
Nick Jackson >>> N-BUCK
Orange Cassidy >>> TANGERINE DREAM
Ortiz >>> O-ZONE
"Tall" Paul Wight >>> THE BIG K.O.
PAC >>> ADRIAN
PENTA EL ZERO M >>> LA PENTA
Peter Avalon >>> PETRIE AVENUE
Powerhouse Hobbs >>> POWER HOSS
Pres10 Vance >>> VANCE-10
QT Marshall >>> MARSHALL T.Q.
Rey Fenix >>> THE PHOENIX
Ricky Starks >>> THE RICK
Ryan Nemeth* >>> TROUT ZIGGLER
Sammy Guevara >>> SAMUEL EL G
Santana >>> CARLOS
Scorpio Sky >>> SCORPION DAWN
Serpentico >>> THE SNAKE
Shawn Dean >>> SHAWNY D
Shawn Spears >>> DILLINGER ESCAPE MAN
Sonny Kiss >>> SAMMY LYNN KISS
Sting >>> MILK CROW
Stu Grayson >>> GRAY STU
Trent Beretta >>> RATED R LOWERCARD
Wardlow >>> WARDBRO
Wheeler Yuta >>> THE MATE YUTA

(Too lazy to do the women's roster... Potential part 2 later... RK-Bro is now a large enough stabl to rival the nWo -- you're welcome.)

It kind of makes me think of the generic names Fire Pro Wrestling and the AKI wrestling games would give to famous real pro wrestlers in their games.😂

I never understood why Golddust fell out of favor with Vince. It's like the character had a crisis. Dressing up in green and Marlyn Manson. WTF was that shit? :lol:

Top 10
*Probably

Rock vs. Brock
Rock vs. Hogan I
Rock vs. Kurt vs. Taker
Rock vs. Austin II
Rock vs. Benoit
Rock vs. Austin III
Rock vs. HHH Ironman
Rock vs. Mankind vs. Shamrock
Rock vs. Jericho (WCW Title)
Rock vs. Austin Backlash

Absolutely nothing involving John Cena

Sorry, jTjohncenaGOAT

I wonder if the ladder match still holds up from ss98. That was a big deal once upon a time.

Oct 30, 2021 1:15:09 GMT @ness said:

I wonder if the ladder match still holds up from ss98. That was a big deal once upon a time.

Oh shit, standby for redo!

But also, to clarify, Rock's matches with Foley were overrated

Oct 30, 2021 1:05:30 GMT 🤯 said:

Top 10
*Probably

Rock vs. Brock
Rock vs. Hogan I
Rock vs. Kurt vs. Taker
Rock vs. Austin II
Rock vs. Benoit
Rock vs. Austin III
Rock vs. HHH Ironman
Rock vs. Mankind vs. Shamrock
Rock vs. Jericho (WCW Title)
Rock vs. Austin Backlash

Absolutely nothing involving John Cena

Sorry, jTjohncenaGOAT

Oct 30, 2021 1:15:09 GMT @ness said:

I wonder if the ladder match still holds up from ss98. That was a big deal once upon a time.

Oct 30, 2021 1:17:13 GMT 🤯 said:

Oct 30, 2021 1:15:09 GMT @ness said:

I wonder if the ladder match still holds up from ss98. That was a big deal once upon a time.

Oh shit, standby for redo!

But also, to clarify, Rock's matches with Foley were overrated

Redone:

Rock vs. Brock
Rock vs. Hogan I
Rock vs. Kurt vs. Taker
Rock vs. Austin II
Rock vs. Benoit
Rock vs. Austin III
Rock vs. HHH Ironman
Rock vs. HHH Ladder
Rock vs. Mankind vs. Shamrock
Rock vs. Austin Backlash

Austin Backlash and Jericho were pretty
neck and neck

But then I thought Austin Backlash had more
"significance"

Since it's what people always say should've been the WMXV main event
(and not because of vest vs. T-shirt)

Oct 30, 2021 1:19:43 GMT 🤯 said:

Redone:

Rock vs. Brock
Rock vs. Hogan I
Rock vs. Kurt vs. Taker
Rock vs. Austin II
Rock vs. Benoit
Rock vs. Austin III
Rock vs. HHH Ironman
Rock vs. HHH Ladder
Rock vs. Mankind vs. Shamrock
Rock vs. Austin Backlash

Austin Backlash and Jericho were pretty
neck and neck

But then I thought Austin Backlash had more
"significance"

Since it's what people always say should've been the WMXV main event
(and not because of vest vs. T-shirt)

Man I want to come back

And wish I had time

To write a really high essay
On the reasoning of this

I love that 🤯 already did best Rock matches. Just posted about it in the PPV Countdown thread. Quickie Top 5...

1. vs. Austin- WM 17
2. vs. HHH- Judgment Day 2000 (Ironman)
3. vs. HHH- Summerslam 1998 (Ladder)
4. vs. HHH- Backlash 2000
5. vs. Mankind- Royal Rumble 1999

-HHH is Rock's best opponent.

Is HHH Backlash only because of the Austin moment though? Otherwise how is it not every other Rock/HHH match?

Oct 30, 2021 2:03:32 GMT 🤯 said:

Is HHH Backlash only because of the Austin moment though? Otherwise how is it not every other Rock/HHH match?

Similar reason why I ruled out Rock/Mankind from Jan 4th... More of an Austin moment than Rock match.

Arguably same for finish of WrestleMan X-Seve.

That's a good list 🤯 and it's pretty difficult to argue any of it.

A bonus shout out would be the Evolution vs. Rock n Sock match where The Rock stole the show (which kind of hurt the premise of the match...but was really entertaining).

If you had to limit it to matches The Rock actually won, what would the list look like?

Oct 30, 2021 2:03:32 GMT 🤯 said:

Is HHH Backlash only because of the Austin moment though? Otherwise how is it not every other Rock/HHH match?

Pretty much. But hot crowds and satisfying finishes are very important things. 

Oct 30, 2021 2:06:02 GMT Big Pete said:

That's a good list 🤯 and it's pretty difficult to argue any of it.

A bonus shout out would be the Evolution vs. Rock n Sock match where The Rock stole the show (which kind of hurt the premise of the match...but was really entertaining).

If you had to limit it to matches The Rock actually won, what would the list look like?

Interesting challenge.

Rock vs. Hogan I
Rock vs. Kurt vs. Taker
Rock vs. Benoit
Rock vs. Austin III
Rock vs. Mankind vs. Shamrock

For the Top 5. Need to research maybe to round out Top 10

I take it all back....



Baker was right........again.



Currently watching more 80's Memphis wrestling for inspiration right now and Lance Russell was one of the smoothest dudes this side of the Mississippi. I also watched this gem for the first time ever:

Oct 31, 2021 2:17:05 GMT rad said:

I take it all back....



Baker was right........again.



Currently watching more 80's Memphis wrestling for inspiration right now and Lance Russell was one of the smoothest dudes this side of the Mississippi. I also watched this gem for the first time ever:

Hooray! Glad you came around on Lance. Nice video, too. I had never seen that one before. It shows a side of Lance I never knew existed  :lol:  Also, Al Costello of the FABULOUS KANGAROOS~! 

My parents are the type to have fox news playing 247. I went there pointlessly today and they had a talking head segment with the Funkasaurus. I know he's been doing it for some time as Tyrus, but during this thing he was holding an nwa belt.

Just thought it was weird, but maybe I'm just hating for no reason. He's proud.