Aug 10, 2022 23:06:20 GMT @ness said:

I'm sure this has been touched on endlessly before, but regarding Rock/Hogan. We know Austin's story. Claims he didn't want it due to the match, but we know the deal. He didn't wanna get booed or not be the defacto face in the match. Funny considering he spent the past year and a half trying to do just that. I can see it though... bitter about his past treatment and despite making the WWF famous again it would be Hogan with the heroes welcome. He woulda went over because Rock did, but he probably fears that being the last thing anyone remembers.

ANYWAYS

So Rock is the consolation prize, supposedly. But didn't it just make more sense for Rock? The Austin match was with Goldberg (which wasn't on the cards obv) but I'm saying in terms of who Hogan faced. Shame the Rock match didn't take place until after the Austin run, would fuel that paranoia handsomely. Rock was less of a "worker" than Austin (like Hogan), Hollywood connections and he just felt more Hogan esque than Austin.

It's been TWENTY YEARS BRAH. Time just goes man. Probably saw it last like 15 yrs ago, I remember an old user @afterglow claiming the match sucked more dicks than Jenna Jameson. And yet I didn't think it was bad at all. Fun match and unlike Joe/Kobashi it wasn't all chops. Maybe that's why Rock succeeded when Austin failed, he was willing to take it like a champ. Austin too prideful which is why he only did "badass" roles. Rock can do it all.

WM17 and 19 are a wash since both in it.

Breakdown triple threat
Isn't Benoit match underrated af?
Brock
Vengeance 3 way APPARENTLY
Kurt NWO01
Jericho NM01
HHH Ladder
HHH Iron Man
Hogan

Ehhh that's all I can think of. But does Austin reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally have that many more better matches? Maybe his tops are better but his muffin stump is ALL FILLER.

Like take away the 2 Bret matches and isn't it pretty even? No?

I watched a lot of Austin matches in 2016, graded a bunch of them, and these are what I had at B and above (crossing out what you've asked plus a couple more involving Rock). It's still a pretty sick list of matches. 

Austin vs. Hart (Wrestlemania 13)
Austin/Shamrock/Goldust/LOD vs. The Hart Foundation (IYH: Canadian Stampede)
Austin vs. Triple H (No Way Out 2001)
Two Man Power Trip vs. Chris Jericho & Chris Benoit - Raw (May 21, 2001)
Steve Austin vs. Bret Hart (Survivor Series 1996)
Austin vs. Rock (Wrestlemania 17)
Austin vs. Benoit - Smackdown (May 31, 2001)
War Games 1992
Austin vs. Angle (SummerSlam 2001)
Steve Austin vs. Barry Windham (May 9, 1992)
The Hollywood Blonds vs Flair/Anderson (June, 1993) (Clash of the Champions 23)
Steve Austin vs. Ricky Steamboat (Clash of the Champions)
Steve Austin vs. Dude Love (Over the Edge)
Austin vs. Rock (Backlash 1999)
Austin vs. Rock vs. Undertaker vs. Triple H vs. Angle vs. Rikishi (Armageddon 2000)
Hollywood Blonds vs. Steamboat/Douglas (March 27th 1993)
Steve Austin vs. Ricky Steamboat (Bash at the Beach 1994)
Austin vs. Hart vs. Undertaker vs. Vader (IYH:Final Four)
Austin vs. McMahon (St. Valentine's Day Massacre)
Austin vs. Rock (Wrestlemania 15)
Steve Austin vs. Triple H (No Mercy 1999)
Austin vs. Angle vs. RVD (No Mercy 2001)

Even the B- matches are a good indication of depth:

Steve Austin vs. Undertaker (SummerSlam 1998)
Austin vs. Triple H vs. Mankind (SummerSlam 1999)
Austin vs. Angle (January 8, 2001)
Two Man Power Trip vs. Brothers of Destruction (Backlash 2001)
Austin vs. Benoit vs. Jericho (King Of The Ring 2001)
Austin vs. Angle (Unforgiven 2001)
Austin vs. Angle - Raw (October 8, 2001)

Yeah that's some quality. Man he really brought it in 2001 to go out with.

Aug 10, 2022 23:51:39 GMT @ness said:

Yeah that's some quality. Man he really brought it in 2001 to go out with.

What was so striking re-watching most of his career in the span of a month was seeing how finished his body looked in 1999, then the inexplicable resurgence in 2001, then it started to look finished again towards the end of the year. It really was the last great run he had left in him. 

That's a heck of a match list Kilgore just posted. You know it's good when Austin/Dude can't even crack the Top 10 and the IYH 4 way barely squeaks into the Top 20.

Dunno where the TALK was but Vengeance 02... I think this was right as I was becoming a displaced fan after being a huge mark. So that's probably why I never seen it in full. A few mashups maybe. Think it was mostly them stealing each other's moves. Basically HCTP.

🤯 is gonna smack me one for this, but I actually did see the Vengeance Triple Threat when it aired...and remember nothing about it. Must not have thought it was anything special. Don't hit me with a brick.

Also, I can't watch videos on DailyMotion from my computer anymore due to using AdBlocker Can still watch DM videos on my phone tho.

Aug 11, 2022 1:53:21 GMT Baker said:

🤯 is gonna smack me one for this, but I actually did see the Vengeance Triple Threat when it aired...and remember nothing about it. Must not have thought it was anything special. Don't hit me with a brick.

No bricks needed, just encourage a re-watch.

Also, have you seen Brock/Cena/Seth? That's good shit too, pal.

Love this talk is happening in 2 threads. Let's make it a third for impact.

Also shitty Earl reffing. Looking back he really ruins matches.

Aug 11, 2022 2:05:41 GMT @ness said:

Love this talk is happening in 2 threads. Let's make it a third for impact.

Also shitty Earl reffing. Looking back he really ruins matches.

The dueling discussions have me confused as fuck where I am in terms of PW time and space.

Sensitive King

Booker/Rock randomly in my YT feed. Watched the entrances (only 1/2 thru Vengeance 🤯 lulz) and man you can't compete with that flash photography. There's just something about past wrestling that current era can't touch. Something about the business going to ala carte/on demand just ruined it IMO.

WWF putting the Godwinns vs. Quebecers on PPV in 1998 is one of the weirdest things ever and not enough people talk about this.

Went to an event at a local park this afternoon. Said event drew a decent sized crowd. One of the people there was a guy in his 20s or 30s wearing a black Seth Rollins shirt. I've used this thread to chronicle wrestling shirts seen in the wild since September of last year and now it's time for a count...

The answer is 9. That's actually pretty high. Say 7 more than I would have predicted if you asked me when I started this thread in September.

Last time I saw a shirt in public was also a Seth Rollins shirt. It's either cool enough to not look like a wrestling shirt or my local area has bad taste.

Pretty sure I reported it at the time, but last wrestling shirt I saw was a faded OG DX shirt at a Stop & Shop. Guy looked a couple years older than me, which is just about right.

Aug 14, 2022 0:38:51 GMT @ness said:

Last time I saw a shirt in public was also a Seth Rollins shirt. It's either cool enough to not look like a wrestling shirt or my local area has bad taste.

It was either this one or something very similar...




Here are those 9 shirts seen in the wild + a bonus tee I mentioned seeing before September 2021 and actually still remembered due to its bizarreness...

September 2021: Wrestlemania XIV shirt- "30 something guy"
October 2021: Jeff Hardy TNA "Creatures of the Night" shirt- "an old man"
October 2021: Hulkamania shirt- "young guy....guessing a high schooler.....college kid at the oldest"
November 2021: Syxx NWO shirt- "Lots of tattoos. Guessing mid-late 30s."
December 2021: Lucha Underground hoodie- "a Kevin Owens lookalike"
March 2021: Roddy Piper "Hot Rod" shirt- "heavy set gentleman roughly in his 40s who walked with a cane"
June 2021: Macho Man shirt- "normal looking guy around my age"
August 2021: WWE Draft shirt- "young boy around 8 years old"
August 2021: Seth Rollins shirt- "guy in his 20s or 30s"
BONUS: "a few months" before September 2021- Road Dogg shirt- "40ish year old woman"

That's the one.

I saw a guy wearing an Orange Cassidy shirt a few weeks ago. Before that, it's been YEARSSSS.

Oh no, wait - I saw someone wearing an Acclaimed shirt the week before.

What did you latter day WCW fans think about the stable of Knobbs/Finlay/The Dog dressed as Dudleys? Any fans? Recently discovered their existence through another Ring of the Hawk video and I must say The Dog looks far more entertaining than I had always imagined. He acts like an actual dog! That's gold, Jerry. Gold! And kudos to WCW for booking the natural Dog vs. Cat match. They really should have put that bad boy on pay per view though. After all dog vs. cat is right up there with shark vs. bear as one of the animal kingdom's all time great rivalries.

That whole period was a serious low-point in WCW. Goldberg was injured, Bret was injured, the Revolution walked out and Hogan was back despite walking out of the company at Halloween Havoc '99 with no explanation. Picture the Foley/Orton '03 match, except Foley comes back and completely ignores Orton that was what it was like. Truth be told I barely even remember the Dog. He largely worked the B and C shows which were a good year or so behind in syndication. So I largely just remember Finlay making Knobbs his young boy which seemed odd since they appeared close to the same age. Also, I didn't see anything in a degenerate like Knobbs, it was like of all the talent, you're going to mentor the guy that submits people with his armpit?

Truth be told, I always get The Dog confused with Big Al, Tank Abbott's Superbrawl 2000 opponent he pulled a knife on during the match. I assume I saw him, but I was so checked out on WCW around that time. Jarrett-Sid for the title? Hogan-Flair again?!

TIL BOBCORE wrestled one TNA match. It was a 6 man on PPV where he teamed with James Storm and Nick Aldis and that's actually one heck of a team, albeit it a random one. Wanted to watch it but could only find one three minute clip over on Facebook. Regret to inform you Holly already had the awful midlife crisis tattoo. Also discovered he hasn't wrestled a match since 2019. Looks like it might finally be over for our guy Unless we can cobble together the big bucks to drag him back for one last match with System...

ONE MORE MATCH

Listening to the Evolution theme. You know what it is. Last line in this bitch is "take it back home" - is that a reference to a match? Or perhaps just show BIZNESS in general? Blue light in the open mic cellar of comedy?

Aug 25, 2022 14:12:38 GMT @ness said:

Baker about to show us man feet?

Different kind of flip flops.

Aug 25, 2022 11:34:31 GMT 🤯 said:

I'd love to see a year breakdown of the for and against for HHH.

Triple H: King of Kings Flip Flops

1. WCW 94-95: Yawn. A literally forgettable (considering all the times I forgot this run ever existed) low midcard heel who did nothing of note. 

2. WWF Debut Early 95-March 96: Good. Sure he was a blatant Regal ripoff, but I liked Regal in those days, so I was cool with Hunter Hearst Helmsley as WWF's version of His Lordship. Helmsley was a perfectly cromulent 'annoying' midcard heel in the classic WWF mold of Mountie/Model/IRS. Enjoyed the HOG feud and the undefeated streak gave him a hook. Could have seen him being a solid IC Champ or even KOTR winner since it fit his gimmick so well.

3. April 96-October 96: Boring. Getting squashed by a returning Warrior to end his undefeated streak was the predictable (and right) move, but he didn't do much of note after that. Truth is he was starting to get stale even before Warrior ended his unbeaten streak. The Dumpster feud, while it did have its moments, was just a lesser rehash of the HOG feud. Before long Helmsley had descended from a solid Mountie/Model/IRS spot in the midcard to flirting with the dreaded Damian Demento/Bastion Booger spot on the lower card. It was just hard to care about a loser who wasn't spectacular in any way.

4. October 96-November 96- Yay. The Perfect Swerve making him the Perfect Protege and netting him the IC Title in the process instantly got me back on the HHH bandwagon. Too bad it only lasted like two weeks. Perfect ditched WWF for the Evil Empire and I went right back to not caring about Helmsley.

5. November 96-late Summer/early Fall 2000: BOO! While conceding this is the period that made HHH a bona fide superstar, I couldn't stand him the entire time. He ran the gamut of all negative reactions, bouncing back and forth between indifference, X Pac heat, and the good 'boo the heel/pay money to see him lose/love to hate' type of heat. 

6. Late Summer/Early Fall 2000-September 2002: The Man. Can't remember exactly when I did a 180 on Trips, but it was sometime between August-October 2000. He went from the guy I grudgingly came to respect as the best in the world in the midst of an all time great run, while still loving to hate him (as if I'm going to cheer for this jerk against Baker Boys Foley & The Rock), to the best in the world that I loved to love. My HHH loving/Rock hating friends Boo & Will deserve a lot of credit for making me see the light. They had been working on me for months and finally broke through at some point. Before long I joined them in viewing Triple H as The Coolest, The Best, and The Biggest Badass. He had the coolest themes, coolest entrance, coolest look, and best matches. Another group of friends and I 'invented' Chuck Norris jokes for Taz a few years earlier. Now I recycled them with this new group of friends for Triple H. His injury only made him more legendary to my new clique and I. See, because WWF went into its first slump in years when HHH was out with injury. But fear not! Because business will pick up again once The Game returns. We treated his return like The Second Coming. Took off work, had a big watch party and everything. It was like Wrestlemania, Christmas, and the Super Bowl all rolled into one. The fickle internet (lol as if I'm one to talk with my 10 flip flops) soon turned on him. But I remained loyal until...

7. September 2002-March 2004: Overpushed. He was given a made up title by Eric Bischoff just because and then beat my latest hero RVD at Unforgiven 2002. That was the last straw. It was just too much. Plus he had lost a step in the ring from his 00-01 prime. He just got boring. Then he won and won and won again and kept on winning and it got sooooo boring. The only thing keeping him from falling even further on my Most Hated list was the fact that most his opponents were even worse! Scott Steiner, Nash, and Goldberg...ugh! Go away heat epitomized in that terrible trio. And go away I did! Sort of. Into the waiting arms of TNA, ROH, and Smackdown (which was also in decline from its late 02-early 03 peak).

8. March 2004-June 2006: Yay. All I really wanted was for HHH to have good matches and lose from time to time. He finally had a great match again with HBK on the last Raw of 2003. Then he had a classic confrontation at Wrestlemania 20 and actually lost in the process! To vanilla midget Chris Benoit, of all people! That's all I asked for. So I was back on Team Trips. Even played up the HHH fanboy gimmick in a similar way to my current BOBCORE gimmick as I defended my man Trips against an internet full of HHHaters. He lost 3 straight Manias. Made Batista a star. Even lost when he shouldn't have to 'failed experiment' Cena at WM 22. I was even hyped for the DX reunion! And I HATED the Original DX! Turns out that would be a mistake...

9. June 2006-January 2007: This is stupid. I was over the DX reunion as soon as they squashed the Spirit Squad at Vengeance 2006. They weren't funny. They weren't having good matches. Their feuds were boring and they never lost. Awful stuff. Sent me right back to my late 90s roots as a HHHBK disliker.

10. 2007-Recently: Legend status, achieved- HHH got injured in early 2007 and absence once again made the heart grow fonder. I was way more excited than I probably should have been for his Clash of Kings return match with King Booker at Summerslam 2007. I soon settled back into my mid 2000s role of defending HHH against a hostile internet. Admittedly stagnated as a fan as now I had my core group of veteran faves that I wasn't likely to turn on no matter what. HHH was among them. Honestly don't even remember much about this run other than he was a babyface, had another lengthy title reign, reignited his feud with Randy Boreton, and elevated Jeff Hardy. Then I stopped watching altogether, but counted Trips among my all time faves for a decade and a half. He was solidly in the pantheon of immortals. Didn't think he'd ever get back on my bad side until....

11. Recently: The Future Is Bleak- WWE lifer Triple H's unexpected transformation into Gabe Sapolsky 2.0 is low key one of the weirdest developments of the last decade, and it's one that does not leave me optimistic about the future. Hunter's penchant for bland good wrestler guys leads me to believe wrestling will continue to become increasingly niche as it doubles down on catering to an ever-dwindling hardcore fanbase. Double Corkscrew Shooting Star Powerbombs are nice and all, but they're not dime magnets. Big personalities and big stories are. Always have been. Always will be. It was fine enough when he was running the minor league outfit, but now that he's in the majors....not good. While it's true I've been mostly checked out for over a decade with no real desire to come back, a large part of me still wants to see my once-beloved WWE thrive. I'd love for them to become mainstream again. But something tells me Johnny Gargano, or your personal 180 pound Johnny Bootsandtights of choice, will not be the next Hogan or Austin who leads WWE back to the promised land.

Warrior's failed reign as champion has been discussed extensively. How his character was not as relatable as Hogan's, which is why they tried to humanise him. How he was not given a new hot heel like Earthquake as his first house show opponent, but instead a repackaged Rick Rude (even if they did a good job with it) who Warrior had beaten the year before and then Mr. Perfect, who had just been beaten by Hogan around the loop and then lost his Perfect TV Record to Beefer at Mania. But was there another problem?

Did beating Hulk Hogan hurt his popularity?

I would argue that dethroning Hogan in front of a stadium crowd has put Warrior's historic standing higher than it probably should be based on what he actually achieved. But, in real time, did it actually damage him? Beating the old hero is not typically what you have the new hero do. You have him beat the bad guy who stole the belt from the old hero. If they'd had Perfect be a transition champion in early 1990, would that have helped Warrior's popularity as the new top dog? Would the fans have been more behind him irrespective of his house show opponents?

Aug 29, 2022 19:06:10 GMT Strobe said:

Warrior's failed reign as champion has been discussed extensively. How his character was not as relatable as Hogan's, which is why they tried to humanise him. How he was not given a new hot heel like Earthquake as his first house show opponent, but instead a repackaged Rick Rude (even if they did a good job with it) who Warrior had beaten the year before and then Mr. Perfect, who had just been beaten by Hogan around the loop and then lost his Perfect TV Record to Beefer at Mania. But was there another problem?

Did beating Hulk Hogan hurt his popularity?

I would argue that dethroning Hogan in front of a stadium crowd has put Warrior's historic standing higher than it probably should be based on what he actually achieved. But, in real time, did it actually damage him? Beating the old hero is not typically what you have the new hero do. You have him beat the bad guy who stole the belt from the old hero. If they'd had Perfect be a transition champion in early 1990, would that have helped Warrior's popularity as the new top dog? Would the fans have been more behind him irrespective of his house show opponents?

In some alternate timeline, WrestleMania IV is headlined by Hogan "winning back" his stolen/purchased title from Ted DiBiase in the tournament finals after André takes a dive via DQ by assaulting Hogan with a chair in the semifinals. (Meanwhile, DiBiase makes it past Savage in the semis thanks to shenanigans from Virgil & André.)

The Mega Powers angle becomes inverted a bit, with Savage not only growing increasingly insecure about the Hogan/Liz relationship, but also Hogan's WWF title. We get the turn and Hogan/Savage at WMV, with the shock finish of Savage cheating to beat Hogan for the belt. What!?!?

Savage gets a year long reign a year later, and we run Savage/Warrior a year earlier than real life at WrestleMania VI (meanwhile, maybe Hogan faces Zeus in a No Holds Barred co-main event?). Warrior ostensibly retires Savage by beating him so thoroughly for the title.

Hogan wants his belt back, and now that he's "Hollywood" Hulk Hogan, it makes sense they can sell out the original venue in LA with the year-deferred Warrior/Hogan collision. Hogan proves he still has it by just narrowly beating Warrior, and we return to business as usual at long last.

Hogan defends against Flair or drops to him at WM8, while Savage ends his feud with Jake, and Warrior returns to... challenge Hogan to a rematch (or Flair if we switch to him?)?

Aug 29, 2022 20:07:38 GMT 🤯 said:

In some alternate timeline, WrestleMania IV is headlined by Hogan "winning back" his stolen/purchased title from Ted DiBiase in the tournament finals after André takes a dive via DQ by assaulting Hogan with a chair in the semifinals. (Meanwhile, DiBiase makes it past Savage in the semis thanks to shenanigans from Virgil & André.)

The Mega Powers angle becomes inverted a bit, with Savage not only growing increasingly insecure about the Hogan/Liz relationship, but also Hogan's WWF title. We get the turn and Hogan/Savage at WMV, with the shock finish of Savage cheating to beat Hogan for the belt. What!?!?

Savage gets a year long reign a year later, and we run Savage/Warrior a year earlier than real life at WrestleMania VI (meanwhile, maybe Hogan faces Zeus in a No Holds Barred co-main event?). Warrior ostensibly retires Savage by beating him so thoroughly for the title.

Hogan wants his belt back, and now that he's "Hollywood" Hulk Hogan, it makes sense they can sell out the original venue in LA with the year-deferred Warrior/Hogan collision. Hogan proves he still has it by just narrowly beating Warrior, and we return to business as usual at long last.

Hogan defends against Flair or drops to him at WM8, while Savage ends his feud with Jake, and Warrior returns to... challenge Hogan to a rematch (or Flair if we switch to him?)?

A fun alternate timeline, but a number of things I cannot see happening.

- Mania ending with a heel win and Hogan losing
- Hogan not getting his win back over Savage
- A year-long heel title reign

If Hogan is leaving Mania IV with the title, even when he is off to film No Holds Barred, then there isn't a need to get the title off him and have the tournament. Mania IV would just be Hogan beating DiBiase w/Andre in his corner and Savage would probably beat Honky for the IC and they'd run Savage/DiBiase IC title matches as the house show A town main events.

Aug 29, 2022 20:21:23 GMT Strobe said:

Aug 29, 2022 20:07:38 GMT 🤯 said:

In some alternate timeline, WrestleMania IV is headlined by Hogan "winning back" his stolen/purchased title from Ted DiBiase in the tournament finals after André takes a dive via DQ by assaulting Hogan with a chair in the semifinals. (Meanwhile, DiBiase makes it past Savage in the semis thanks to shenanigans from Virgil & André.)

The Mega Powers angle becomes inverted a bit, with Savage not only growing increasingly insecure about the Hogan/Liz relationship, but also Hogan's WWF title. We get the turn and Hogan/Savage at WMV, with the shock finish of Savage cheating to beat Hogan for the belt. What!?!?

Savage gets a year long reign a year later, and we run Savage/Warrior a year earlier than real life at WrestleMania VI (meanwhile, maybe Hogan faces Zeus in a No Holds Barred co-main event?). Warrior ostensibly retires Savage by beating him so thoroughly for the title.

Hogan wants his belt back, and now that he's "Hollywood" Hulk Hogan, it makes sense they can sell out the original venue in LA with the year-deferred Warrior/Hogan collision. Hogan proves he still has it by just narrowly beating Warrior, and we return to business as usual at long last.

Hogan defends against Flair or drops to him at WM8, while Savage ends his feud with Jake, and Warrior returns to... challenge Hogan to a rematch (or Flair if we switch to him?)?

A fun alternate timeline, but a number of things I cannot see happening.

- Mania ending with a heel win and Hogan losing
- Hogan not getting his win back over Savage
- A year-long heel title reign

If Hogan is leaving Mania IV with the title, even when he is off to film No Holds Barred, then there isn't a need to get the title off him and have the tournament. Mania IV would just be Hogan beating DiBiase w/Andre in his corner and Savage would probably beat Honky for the IC and they'd run Savage/DiBiase IC title matches as the house show A town main events.

Damn you and your logic!