The JBL hate proves why wrestling has become such shit over the years. Can't wrestle or take your time in the ring , can't do character work , can't be mean - just go spam and smile and remind me how good of a guy you are outside of the ring and why you love wrestling so we can all hold hands and sing a fucking campfire melody together.

That's where the evolution of pro-wrestling has taken us. It's become fan service for the diehard fans who stuck around when the medium took a big dip in popularity post Attitude Era. Those diehard fans happen to by and large love the spammy style that is seen in most companies.

The politically correct culture has made it a lot more difficult to work as an effective heel, but it's still possible. Look at MJF, Roman Reigns, Britt Baker, Jay White. They are incredible.

In general the criticism of modern pro-wrestling is just another example of "everything was better back in my day", something that seems to be part of human nature as we all like best what we grew up liking.

The closest modern heel we have to JBL is EVIL over in NJPW. He even has a stable akin to JBL's cabinet who run interference in literally every match. Problem is EVIL has the biggest go away heat in all of wrestling, the fans can't stand him and even the wrestlers are basically breaking the fourth wall in their backstage promos talking about how terrible his act is. If that's what "real heat" is nowadays, I want no part of it.

Jan 24, 2022 10:32:11 GMT Big Pete said:

Jan 23, 2022 23:43:05 GMT Ed said:

JBL's WWE title reign was 10 months of my life I'll never get back. Thanks a lot, Vince.

Who were you rooting for Ed ?

Booker, Eddie, Christian Kurt, The Undertaker. All these guys made better choices. Shit, I would have been FINE with them establishing JBL as a contender & giving him a 3-month reign. However, a TEN-month ride is insane. 1 week, Paul Heyman hates The APA because they are beer-drinking southerners? he never truly give a clear reason. The next week to 3, Ron Simmons was fired. Then, Bradshaw appeared on Fox News, spewing all his bullshit political leanings.

Jan 22, 2022 21:24:01 GMT Kilgore said:

Having not watched that era, but hearing JBL was a good main event heel was mindblowing, because only passively hearing that he became one when it happened was one of the most LOL WWE moments of my life. It was one of the most ridiculous things I had ever heard. Worse than any son of a promoter. Just taking a random jabroni and handing him an undeserved main event run. But then JBL made it work? Still find this hard to believe.

When did you stop watching? Because it may have actually been more unbelievable for those who were still watching. You may have at least been able to picture Bradshaw getting a build up to strong midcarder then upper midcarder, before moving into the main event.

From memory, my personal thoughts on Bradshaw's standing at Mania XX was the lowest since maybe 98. The APA was an incredibly stale act, almost feeling like a nostalgia one, despite their peak being only a few years before. Just like Rikishi and Scotty 2 Hotty were. Both teams were in the forgettable 4-way tag at Mania XX.

At the time, as someone who did not know much about the behind the scenes, I genuinely would not have been particularly surprised if Bradshaw had been future endeavoured that very night.

March 14 (Mania XX): APA are in forgettable 4-way tag. Bradshaw means fuck all.
March 18 (SmackDown!): Kishi/Hotty beat APA by pinning Bradshaw, which is supposed to result in APA's firing, but Heyman says Bradshaw can stay and talks about his financial acumen. By staying and not going with his partner, Bradshaw has turned heel.
March 21 (house show in Glasgow): fucking 2004 Billy Kidman pins Bradshaw with a roll up.
March 26 (SmackDown!): Bradshaw is now JBL and attacks Eddie, becoming the main event heel challenger.

Jan 24, 2022 13:53:51 GMT UT said:

The JBL hate proves why wrestling has become such shit over the years. Can't wrestle or take your time in the ring, can't do character work, can't be mean - just go spam and smile and remind me how good of a guy you are outside of the ring and why you love wrestling so we can all hold hands and sing a fucking campfire melody together.

I can speak for K.O.T.N. only for myself. I don't like JBL. I think he's a shitty wrestler. He's slow, boring & plotting. He sounds like Foghorn Leghorn. I don't like the narrative you're painting. I'm a mark for The Dudley Boys & Andre The Giant. Andre could barely move at the end. Bub Buh and Devon caused riots in ECW. I hate The Young Bucks. They have no personality and flip for the sake of it. I said nothing about loving false finishes or wrestlers spamming moves or did I talk about how nice they are outside the ring. I don't know why you made those talking points a part of the conversation.

Holy fucking shit you miserable bunch of fucking babies. Jesus Christ, all I said was that I think JBL sucks and the only fucking response you bunch of old fucks have is "AW HEAD DROPS FLIPS NO PSYCHOLOGY NO HEAT YOU FUCKING MARK YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING THIS IS WHY WRESTLING SUCKS NOW IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT" God damn it shut the fuck up, Jim Cornette. I like actual Stan Hansen. I like old-school NWA matches and I like modern wrestlers who do limb work and psychology. One of my favorite acts in AEW is fuckin' old-ass STING. Get the fuck over yourselves, JBL is just actually bad. He's a bad wrestler and a bad person. Shut the fuck up, shut the fuck up, shut the fuck up. 

I totally reject this WRESTLING SUCKS BECAUSE THERE'S NO REAL HEELS ANYMORE when the dismantling of traditional heels/babyfaces during the Monday Night Wars contributed to the most successful period in wrestling history. If anything, going back to JBL type heels was regression, and a real (bad) sign of things to come as the WWE went back to an '80s pov of wrestling for the next decade, hemorrhaging the majority of their audience in the process. 

Whatever overcorrection taking place now most likely sucks, too, but the point is, the model that is supposedly superior (trad heelz and faces) is was what did the damage in the first place. Decade plus of retrograde John Cena taking on literally JBL, and a slew of 80s heels like that, and where did that get the business? It destroyed it. 

That's not to say traditional heels can't be good. It's just very rare that they are because they rely so much on character work, as one-note characters, so it's usually bad. And then also relies on archaic in-ring psychology, which has bored wrestling audiences since the mid-fucking-90s. Also bad.

I don't know what will bring wrestling "back," if it's even possible anymore, but I can guarantee JBL style heels ain't it. 

Jan 24, 2022 21:25:18 GMT KITN said:

Holy fucking shit you miserable bunch of fucking babies. Jesus Christ, all I said was that I think JBL sucks and the only fucking response you bunch of old fucks have is "AW HEAD DROPS FLIPS NO PSYCHOLOGY NO HEAT YOU FUCKING MARK YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING THIS IS WHY WRESTLING SUCKS NOW IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT" God damn it shut the fuck up, Jim Cornette. I like actual Stan Hansen. I like old-school NWA matches and I like modern wrestlers who do limb work and psychology. One of my favorite acts in AEW is fuckin' old-ass STING. Get the fuck over yourselves, JBL is just actually bad. He's a bad wrestler and a bad person. Shut the fuck up, shut the fuck up, shut the fuck up. 

Someone should be a cry baby and report this post.

Cancel culture and tshirt sales really killed any chance of a wrestling heel. Ciampia was doing it (forgoing merch) for a minute in NXT, but also felt like he was doing some meta iwc pandering in the process. You just can't be a real villain when you're identity revolves around having a bluecheck.

Jan 24, 2022 21:30:11 GMT Kilgore said:

I totally reject this WRESTLING SUCKS BECAUSE THERE'S NO REAL HEELS ANYMORE when the dismantling of traditional heels/babyfaces during the Monday Night Wars contributed to the most successful period in wrestling history. If anything, going back to JBL type heels was regression, and a real (bad) sign of things to come as the WWE went back to an '80s pov of wrestling for the next decade, hemorrhaging the majority of their audience in the process. 

Whatever overcorrection taking place now most likely sucks, too, but the point is, the model that is supposedly superior (trad heelz and faces) is was what did the damage in the first place. Decade plus of retrograde John Cena taking on literally JBL, and a slew of 80s heels like that, and where did that get the business? It destroyed it. 

That's not to say traditional heels can't be good. It's just very rare that they are because they rely so much on character work, as one-note characters, so it's usually bad. And then also relies on archaic in-ring psychology, which has bored wrestling audiences since the mid-fucking-90s. Also bad.

I don't know what will bring wrestling "back," if it's even possible anymore, but I can guarantee JBL style heels ain't it. 

Except that Cena was a draw and did good business and certainly didn’t destroy it.

Jan 24, 2022 21:25:18 GMT KITN said:

Holy fucking shit you miserable bunch of fucking babies. Jesus Christ, all I said was that I think JBL sucks and the only fucking response you bunch of old fucks have is "AW HEAD DROPS FLIPS NO PSYCHOLOGY NO HEAT YOU FUCKING MARK YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING THIS IS WHY WRESTLING SUCKS NOW IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT" God damn it shut the fuck up, Jim Cornette. I like actual Stan Hansen. I like old-school NWA matches and I like modern wrestlers who do limb work and psychology. One of my favorite acts in AEW is fuckin' old-ass STING. Get the fuck over yourselves, JBL is just actually bad. He's a bad wrestler and a bad person. Shut the fuck up, shut the fuck up, shut the fuck up. 

Look, I can understand you disliking JBL. I get it. He's not everyone's cup of tea. But you throw out aggressive posts like this:

Jan 22, 2022 21:09:45 GMT KITN said:

How the fuck was JBL a main event guy? Like, he was just the worst. You're telling me there wasn't ANYBODY else? Heel Booker T couldn't have had a better run as the top guy than JBL?!

Jan 22, 2022 21:31:30 GMT KITN said:

It's like if Ted Dibiase was larger and worse.

Jan 23, 2022 0:12:43 GMT KITN said:

Ah, yes, the fantastic heat of having dogshit bad boring matches.

Then when people fire back at you with equally hyper-aggressive posts, they are suddenly a "miserable bunch of fucking babies"? I imagine UT thought you were a "miserable fucking baby" when you wrote those posts bashing JBL. Don't dish it out if you can't take it.

JBL is not a terrible wrestler just because you don't like him. Clearly many people did like him, including the higher-ups at WWE.

To be fair , I thought KITN was a miserable baby long before he made any of those posts. I do appreciate you getting it though Emp.

Well, congratulations, I have someone on this forum I hate ALMOST as much as I hate the open bigots like Kid and iNCY. So I think I'll do the same thing I did with them. *Blocked*

Jan 24, 2022 20:27:37 GMT Ed said:

Jan 24, 2022 13:53:51 GMT UT said:

The JBL hate proves why wrestling has become such shit over the years. Can't wrestle or take your time in the ring, can't do character work, can't be mean - just go spam and smile and remind me how good of a guy you are outside of the ring and why you love wrestling so we can all hold hands and sing a fucking campfire melody together.

I can speak for K.O.T.N. only for myself. I don't like JBL. I think he's a shitty wrestler. He's slow, boring & plotting. He sounds like Foghorn Leghorn. I don't like the narrative you're painting. I'm a mark for The Dudley Boys & Andre The Giant. Andre could barely move at the end. Bub Buh and Devon caused riots in ECW. I hate The Young Bucks. They have no personality and flip for the sake of it. I said nothing about loving false finishes or wrestlers spamming moves or did I talk about how nice they are outside the ring. I don't know why you made those talking points a part of the conversation.

Yet in the previous post you mainly mentioned Benoit , Eddie , Christian as better alternatives. What made them better alternatives? Especially Benoit and Christian? Your opinion? Their blandness in and out of the ring?

The idea that JBL was slow and plodding is inherently wrong. The dude was a better athlete that most people named in this very discussion. Don’t like him than fine but his run was a breath of fresh air - he was so easy to hate. It was a beautiful thing.

Jan 24, 2022 22:00:14 GMT KITN said:

Well, congratulations, I have someone on this forum I hate ALMOST as much as I hate the open bigots like Kid and iNCY. So I think I'll do the same thing I did with them. *Blocked*

Good luck with that sparky. Go cry somewhere else.

Jan 24, 2022 21:25:18 GMT KITN said:

Holy fucking shit you miserable bunch of fucking babies.

Bitch please. You're the most miserable fucking baby on this forum. It's all "FUCK this and FUCK that and FUCK you. How DARE you disagree with me" until somebody claps back at your bullshit. Then you go crying to the mods behind the backs of our decent posters like the insufferable crybully bitch that you are. You love to dish it out but you sure as shit can't take it. I let your bullshit slide elsewhere on the forum. You're easy enough to ignore in the sections I rarely frequent and don't really care about. But I will not have you polluting HoW with your garbage.

Jesus Christ, all I said was that I think JBL sucks and the only fucking response you bunch of old fucks have is "AW HEAD DROPS FLIPS NO PSYCHOLOGY NO HEAT YOU FUCKING MARK YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING THIS IS WHY WRESTLING SUCKS NOW IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT"

Wrong again. I made a lengthy post detailing several reasons why JBL does not, in fact, suck. But of course you're going to ignore all my well reasoned arguments and get triggered by one throwaway line out of several paragraphs.

I don't even give a fuck if you don't like JBL. Kilgore and Ed obviously don't. That's fine! We disagree all the time in HoW. We put forth our arguments, preferably in a well reasoned manner, and move on. What we don't do is....well, KITN bullshit.

Shut the fuck up, shut the fuck up, shut the fuck up.

KITN in a nutshell. Grow the fuck up.

I don't mind JBL having a title run. The span of the run is my issue. On top of the fact, it came out of nowhere.

Also disagree with the idea that the Attitude Era dismantled the traditional heels. Vince was as traditional as you get as hated as anyone has ever been and obviously popular.

Jan 24, 2022 22:12:39 GMT Ed said:

I don't mind JBL having a title run. The span of the run is my issue. On top of the fact, it came out of nowhere.

I don’t get why it coming out of nowhere being a bad thing. The length thing I can get - but it also made it much more sweet when someone finally got over on him. That was the the entire point.

One for Kilgore. 18 years after retirement Steve Austin was WWE's top merchandise mover in 2021 generating $3.6 million in sales. John Cena was runner up a full million dollars behind Stone Cold. Alexa Bliss came in 3rd place a full million behind Cena and two million behind Austin. Bliss was the biggest merchandise mover among active full time talent.
www.pwmania.com/wwes-top-merchandise-sellers-and-items-for-2021-revealed
==============
Finally remembered something I intended to share in my very first post in this thread. A whole lot of people consider the Attitude Era the be all and end all of professional wrestling. Yet many of these very same people also think Vince Russo is the WOAT booker. Does not compute. How can your favorite era be booked by the worst booker? I mean, you never see people say "ECW is my favorite promotion but Heyman sucked as a booker." Or "80s JCP is my jam but Dusty sucked as a booker." I've always found this curious. Of course I have my own theories, but I want to hear from you guys first. Thoughts?

That should say enough about the current state of the roster and WWE business. Stone Cold and Cena.

Although props to Bliss. She’s one of the few redeeming acts on the show. I do love her.

People still buying faded Austin 316 shirts... what a world.

FULL LIST

Steve Austin $3,657,224
John Cena $2,649,836
Alexa Bliss $1,645,945
New World Order $1,292,561
Roman Reigns $1,164,253
The Rock $992,114
Jimmy Uso $885,930
Jey Uso $862,130
Ultimate Warrior $825,841
Eddie Guerrero $704,436

Makes sense, other than Brock that's the only real stars.

Jan 24, 2022 23:33:11 GMT Baker said:

One for Kilgore . 18 years after retirement Steve Austin was WWE's top merchandise mover in 2021 generating $3.6 million in sales. John Cena was runner-up a full million dollars behind Stone Cold. Alexa Bliss came in 3rd place a full million behind Cena and two million behind Austin. Bliss was the biggest merchandise mover among active full-time talent.
www.pwmania.com/wwes-top-merchandise-sellers-and-items-for-2021-revealed
==============
Finally remembered something I intended to share in my very first post in this thread. A whole lot of people consider the Attitude Era the be-all and end-all of professional wrestling. Yet many of these very same people also think Vince Russo is the WOAT booker. Does not compute. How can your favorite era be booked by the worst booker? I mean, you never see people say "ECW is my favorite promotion but Heyman sucked as a booker." Or "80s JCP is my jam but Dusty sucked as a booker." I've always found this curious. Of course, I have my own theories, but I want to hear from you guys first. Thoughts?

Russo was good when Vince acted as a buffer for his ideas. Bischoff says Russo would have good ideas but struggled to create sustainable storylines. After suffering through Russo's TNA tenure, I conquer with Eric's views.

Jan 23, 2022 5:18:40 GMT @ness said:

A guy from work was big into wrestling like me so we started going around the time Benoit was champ. I don't remember the situation, but you've had a few stories where you're defiantly walking out. That was him at the close of Summerslam 04.

lol It was just the one time when Brock ended The Streak. Though I'll confess I may have rolled when Cena beat Michaels at 23 if it had been in the middle of the show rather than the main event.

Honestly I can't really "enjoy" matches in that environment (the bar, not the pisser) just because I feel the need to pay attention to the workrate and that just isn't a thing I can do in a social situation.

It went both ways with me. Yeah, I didn't pay super close attention to subtle nuances and whatnot, but there's also something to be said for being in the presence of dozens of grown ass men (and like 3 women) marking out like it's 1987 and Hogan had just slammed Andre. I'm sure that raucous sports bar atmosphere caused me to overrate Angle/Michaels and the 2007 Royal Rumble* at least a little bit.

Honestly, I think wrestling is better when you watch it with people* as I frequently did from 95-03. The back and forth banter....the collective marking out when something cool happens. Good times. 

*Storytime: I went by myself to watch those half-dozen pay per views at the two sports bars between 05-07, but happened to run into this guy Chuck from my 95-99 neighborhood wrestling fan clique at the 07 Rumble. He had been a big Exosquad fan and the only HBK supporter in our core group of 8 or 9. Credit to Chuck. He endured all the ribbing and stayed true to his hero HBK for nearly two years. I think we eventually converted him to Team Bret, but can't be certain. Anyway, RR 07 marked only the first or second time (ran into him at another bar once in what I think was 06, but once again can't be 100% sure) I had seen him in like 7 years. We drifted apart in the late 90s as I made new friends outside the neighborhood. Plus he had a falling out with my brother and also served in Iraq for a while. 

2007 Chuck was already a "back in my day" kind of guy despite being a few years younger than me. I do remember he was really high on Edge though, even paying him the ultimate compliment of "he could have hung with Bret & Shawn in main events back in the day." So that HBK/Taker Rumble finish was pure fanservice for this pair of New Gen/AE fanboys.

Once they stopped and it was only football I did an about face and never went back.

End of me being a regular PPV watcher was late 2003-early 2004 when my second wrestling fan clique of 00-03 moved on. KOTR 2000 at The Rock fangirl's house was my first PPV with this lot. Around No Mercy 01 it grew to a core group of 7 plus the occasional random attendee and stayed that way for over a year until the others began slowly drifting away. Two of the core members had been lifelong wrestling haters who the rest of us (well, mostly me) converted. It's always amused me that these two slept on Hulkamania and ignored the AE only to get hooked in the waning days of the lousy Invasion angle   We'd get together for just about every pay per view. The five of us who worked together would watch Raw on the restaurant tv on Monday nights and we'd discuss Smackdown in between school and work every Friday at our beloved Arby's. Velocity was usually on in the background at our Saturday night drinky doos but I never paid much attention. Sorry 🤯 . Also watched a lot of Heat for the first and only time during the Raven/D'Lo Era at my friend Bryan's house. 

I've always viewed No Mercy 2003 as the End Of An Era. My Gang of Seven all got together one last time to attend that show right here in Baltimore. But even before that I knew it was coming to an end. September 2003, week of the Brock/Angle Smackdown Ironman Match (remember the date due to a hurricane here in Maryland), two members of my wrestling fan clique went in as roommates to buy their first house along with two other people. I went over to help paint after bailing out my stupid leaky basement for a good 12 hours. My friend Boo (a Headbangers fan!/Rock hater) was painting in his once-beloved HHH shirt. Tragic.

The old crew of 7 had dwindled down to just me and Bryan The TNA/Raven fan for Survivor Series & Armageddon 03. Then we stopped ordering WWE pay per views entirely. We still got the occasional TNA weekly PPV for a few more weeks...maybe months. Then Bryan just stopped caring and went back to his previous life of ignoring wrestling. Ended up ordering WM 20 and Backlash 2004 at home alone. Then it was just those half dozen trips to the sports bar until 07 when I'd catch pay per views (or at least the best bits) on Youtube before WWE could shut it down. We all stayed friends until 2006. We just didn't do the whole wrestling thing anymore. Two of the guys were still casual fans the last time I ran into them in 2014 though.

EDIT: Just realized if I had could have coaxed them along for just a few more months they would have remained wrestling fans for several more years because we were on the cusp of THE WRESTLING GOD Era. The Human Dime Magnet JBL would have drawn them back in for sure. Shame on me for not doing what needed to be done .

Jan 24, 2022 19:44:42 GMT Ed said:

Jan 24, 2022 10:32:11 GMT Big Pete said:

Who were you rooting for Ed ?

Booker, Eddie, Christian Kurt, The Undertaker. All these guys made better choices. Shit, I would have been FINE with them establishing JBL as a contender & giving him a 3-month reign. However, a TEN-month ride is insane. 1 week, Paul Heyman hates The APA because they are beer-drinking southerners? he never truly give a clear reason. The next week to 3, Ron Simmons was fired. Then, Bradshaw appeared on Fox News, spewing all his bullshit political leanings.

So let's say you had to pick one and build to a match for SummerSlam, what would that look like?

Also we've established that the point of the reign was to build towards John Cena winning the title. Would you fast track or even go in that direction to begin with?

You wrote that JBL could have had a three month reign, when does that period of time occur? Who does he beat and who does he put over and when?

When did you stop watching? Because it may have actually been more unbelievable for those who were still watching. You may have at least been able to picture Bradshaw getting a build up to strong midcarder then upper midcarder, before moving into the main event.

From memory, my personal thoughts on Bradshaw's standing at Mania XX was the lowest since maybe 98. The APA was an incredibly stale act, almost feeling like a nostalgia one, despite their peak being only a few years before. Just like Rikishi and Scotty 2 Hotty were. Both teams were in the forgettable 4-way tag at Mania XX.

At the time, as someone who did not know much about the behind the scenes, I genuinely would not have been particularly surprised if Bradshaw had been future endeavoured that very night.

March 14 (Mania XX): APA are in forgettable 4-way tag. Bradshaw means fuck all.
March 18 (SmackDown!): Kishi/Hotty beat APA by pinning Bradshaw, which is supposed to result in APA's firing, but Heyman says Bradshaw can stay and talks about his financial acumen. By staying and not going with his partner, Bradshaw has turned heel.
March 21 (house show in Glasgow): fucking 2004 Billy Kidman pins Bradshaw with a roll up.
March 26 (SmackDown!): Bradshaw is now JBL and attacks Eddie, becoming the main event heel challenger.

There were only a couple of things in Bradshaw's favour.

Appearing in Team Angle at Survivor Series and his work with Fox as a financial analyst which is how he kept his job on SmackDown.

I'm not sure what the deal was with the post-Mania XX match, but the whole reason that match came into existence is because Rikishi stole the victory from Bradshaw. Him and Rikishi were presented as the two biggest stars in that match.

As a fan, I was under the impression that JBL was a foil for Eddie and Eddie would get his first definitive victory under his belt after relying on Goldberg and his quick-wit to beat Lesnar and Angle respectively. Heading into Great American Bash, I thought the direction was Eddie vs. The Undertaker at SummerSlam with Paul Heyman acting as Taker's manager. Taker would be the heel, but it would be a heel turn under durress and it would likely spin-off in another direction. I was shocked when JBL won and it only made sense that Eddie was really struggling to maintain his sobrierty as champion.

As confusing as it was, I do think the run ultimately changed the perception of JBL and he comes across as a genuine great.

I wrote this in General, but I feel he cops the brunt of the post-Lesnar rebuild era. He was a figurehead at a time where characters like Kenzo Suzuki, Mordecai, Heidenreich, Luther Reigns etc. were all pushed and clearly struggled. With so many injuries to contend with it's easy to see why they stuck with John.

I totally reject this WRESTLING SUCKS BECAUSE THERE'S NO REAL HEELS ANYMORE when the dismantling of traditional heels/babyfaces during the Monday Night Wars contributed to the most successful period in wrestling history. If anything, going back to JBL type heels was regression, and a real (bad) sign of things to come as the WWE went back to an '80s pov of wrestling for the next decade, hemorrhaging the majority of their audience in the process.

I agree, even if we use Vince as an example, the guy constantly switched between babyface and heel and hardly missed a beat. The only act that I can remember with no redeeming features was Bossman, and his 1999 run is infamously detested.

I think JBL was OK because the gimmick felt like an extension of the real life persona, just like The Godfather was by far Charles Wright's best character because it suited him. However those type of gimmicks was what caused the first down-fall and a gimmick only really works when the talent is given creative control. I feel like this is where Bake/UT and I really diverge, but gimmicks like the Dungeon of Doom and Blood Runs Cold sucked.

The problem with modern wrestling is that it's purely become about content creation. Unless somebody says or does something to get themselves cancelled, there's no requirement to respond to the audience. All you have to do is make sure you put on 6 hours of content each week and you hit the odd social media engagement targets and then you rake in those big cheques from the television networks or Saudi freakin Arabia. It's an echo chamber and to hit that goal all you have to do is go through the motions. The WWE has very few stars, they're merely television personalities and what drives the storylines is the company itself. You watch the show to see the Royal Rumble, the Elimination Chamber, Wrestlemania, Money in the Bank, SummerSlam, Hell in a Cell, Survivor Series etc.

The disappointing part is that AEW isn't much of an alternative. Sure, they let their audience in on the joke and they celebrate Pro Wrestling but ultimately they're just doing their own thing. The talent who aren't a part of the 'inner circle' have to make do with the 2 minutes they receive on an internet show and they just spin their wheels while the top guys dress up as Looney Tunes characters and goof off on television. There's no incentive to out-do anyone or really improve upon ideas, they'll just do things on their own time and they have a core audience that will lap it up.

Big Pete, I would have been OK JBL feuding Eddie for a bit longer. Then, have JBL get the title. After that, have Kurt Angle work a long program with JBL, swapping the title back & forth. If John is over enough, have him victorious in the end. With a statement under his belt, JBL can continue to build momentum as a true menace. If JBL flops under the spotlight, no significant damage would be done in terms of perception from the fans, IMO. Like when Jinder won the WWE title. A detour until bigger things arise, while also giving new wrestlers a chance in the spotlight.

So if I'm reading that right, you would have liked to have seen JBL receive more credibility by scoring a definitive win to win his first championship and then you'd like to see him face Kurt since Kurt could put on better matches and bump more for JBL? So instead of turning JBL into a Honkey Tonk-style chicken shit heel you'd actually put him over stronger, but the half & half approach by the WWE just didn't do it for you? Have I got that right?

Also, would you have gone with JBL? It sounds like you're settling, if you had to pick one of those names you mentioned earlier - Christian, Eddie etc. who would you have gone with?

I appreciate being attacked for no reason, but my mom raised me to never argue with females and I'll obey.

PS- I was FURIOUS when JBL became champion, because all he was to me (in my mind) at that time was Bradshaw from The APA. If you don't think he was a great champion and a great heel, then you don't have good taste in wrestling. He proved me wrong and I think he was great.

Was about to write up a Dungeon of Doom match or two in the Match Review Thread when I had a revelation...

Two of the most important changes nobody ever talks about occurred in 95-96. One I've touched on in the past is the hub of alternative wrestling moving from Tennessee to Philadelphia. The recent revelation is wrestling going from a Saturday morning event surrounded by cartoons to a prime time Monday night spectacular. These two things everybody overlooks created a major long lasting shift in the wresting landscape. Discuss.

Jan 27, 2022 4:50:11 GMT Baker said:

Was about to write up a Dungeon of Doom match or two in the Match Review Thread when I had a revelation...

Two of the most important changes nobody ever talks about occurred in 95-96. One I've touched on in the past is the hub of alternative wrestling moving from Tennessee to Philadelphia. The recent revelation is wrestling going from a Saturday morning event surrounded by cartoons to a prime time Monday night spectacular. These two things everybody overlooks created a major long lasting shift in the wresting landscape. Discuss.

Well the shift to Mondays left squash matches as a thing of the past and eventually lead to what we see today where nobody stands out with repeat matches between "stars." At some point there needed to be a course correction once the established stars of the 80's and 90's started to wind it down.