Dec 18, 2017 4:11:17 GMT 🤯 said:

Dec 18, 2017 3:47:21 GMT Kilgore said:

I just did a first draft list, unranked, just trying to get the essential people in, and it came to 55. So, I think this is going to be an easy one for me. The no tag teams is phenomenal. I think we should split all these countdowns as singles and tag teams. It just makes things cleaner and easier. Now, the only "tag team" workers I'll have are wrestlers that "graduated" to singles, or somebody who had a cup of coffee as a singles belt holder. Like Marty Jannetty would be under consideration because of his (brief) IC Belt run, not because he was a Rocker.

What about his New Rocker contributions?

Nobody tell Baker, but the New Rockers run will not be under consideration. 

Tag teams ruin everything.

I'm absolutely considering "tag team wrestlers" for my main list. Billy Gunn is a lock for the top half of my ballot based almost entirely on the strength of his two tag teams, for example. Both Road Warriors are also locks for that list. Both members of Money Inc (locks) and both Quebecers (Jacques is a lock, Pierre is on the bubble) will get a big boost from their tag team work.

I'm gonna try finishing my list up in a day or two. Right now I feel good about my Top 38. Those last 12 spots could go in a variety of different directions though. I like getting my ballot done early when I'm doing the counting because I know how am I. If I waited until 7 or 8 ballots were already in I'd inevitably do some strategic voting. This way I won't be influenced.

For Tag Teams I've got my Top 4 set. Haven't looked into it much beyond that. And for Supplemental I have the Top 3 written in stone with, I think, 9 other names under consideration.

How do people feel about Mabel? He has longevity and periods of being booked strongly - does that earn him a place?

Dec 19, 2017 12:09:02 GMT PB said:

How do people feel about Mabel? He has longevity and periods of being booked strongly - does that earn him a place?

He might be making mine. Around the same grouping as Charles Wright probably.

Dec 19, 2017 12:09:02 GMT PB said:

How do people feel about Mabel? He has longevity and periods of being booked strongly - does that earn him a place?

He won't be making my list but definitely deserves consideration. The big case for Mabel is his big 1995- winning KOTR, challenging for the WWF title in the main event of Summerslam, and feuding with 'Taker. MOM were a popular midcard tag team act that helps his cause a little bit while Viscera.....sure was a thing that happened. All kidding aside, it does give him some longevity points.

I received two ballots overnight and will finish mine at some point today to make three. 

Dec 19, 2017 13:31:25 GMT Baker said:

Dec 19, 2017 12:09:02 GMT PB said:

How do people feel about Mabel? He has longevity and periods of being booked strongly - does that earn him a place?

He won't be making my list but definitely deserves consideration. The big case for Mabel is his big 1995- winning KOTR, challenging for the WWF title in the main event of Summerslam, and feuding with 'Taker. MOM were a popular midcard tag team act that helps his cause a little bit while Viscera.....sure was a thing that happened. All kidding aside, it does give him some longevity points.

I received two ballots overnight and will finish mine at some point today to make three. 

People are fast! I'm going all mega database with this shit... Creating a Google sheets file to track title wins, KOTR/Royal Rumble performances, PPV appearances, big show main events, title challenges, duration of runs, PWI/WON awards, character overhauls, and other notes. In other words, it might be a few days before I get my list solidified.

Let it never be said that I don't make sacrifices for you guys. It looks like Pierre & Borga won't be making the cut   They didn't make my last draft, and that draft was missing two guys I forgot all about who will now be making the list. Hell, at this rate I'm going to have to cut a former WWF champion who most of the major storylines revolved around for two years and a certain frog splashing Champion of Europe.

Yeah at first I thought 50 was huge, but there are lots of personal favourites I had to cut since we're doing greatest including a frog-splashing european champion.

So are people viewing this more as greatest stars of the 90s then since it seems like some are taking kayfabe achievements into account?

Or is it whatever you want it to be? Purely in-ring or overall enjoyment of them as a wrestling package including promos or purely star power or a combo of everything with arbitrary weighting?

Dec 19, 2017 14:44:53 GMT Strobe said:

So are people viewing this more as greatest stars of the 90s then since it seems like some are taking kayfabe achievements into account?

Or is it whatever you want it to be? Purely in-ring or overall enjoyment of them as a wrestling package including promos or purely star power or a combo of everything with arbitrary weighting?

I like to leave it open to the voter. Which, yeah, means the whole thing pretty much stands for nothing in the end since there is no set criteria. But it's still fun!

I based my ECW/WCW/90s WWF "Greatest" lists on a combination of star power/kayfabe success/importance to the promotion. I also try to be as objective as possible leaving favoritism out of it until maybe the last few spots where I usually reward one or two of "my guys," but that's probably not going to happen this time around.

But you can interpret anyway you want- purely based on in ring work, favoritism, strictly based on championship success, etc.

Working on rating Ahmed vs. The Model right now. Ahmed burned brightly for a relatively short period of time. Then he was gone. While The Model was a solid fixture in the midcard for years. Right now I'm leaning towards Model > Ahmed.

Since I've got the Model on the brain, he's one of the guys I place in a "block"- in this case, the 'entertaining midcard heel' grouping w/ IRS & Mountie. Another duo I group together is Slaughter & Mr. Backlund as 'the random champions who did little else.'

For my list I took into account:

- Kayfabe Achievements
- In-Ring Ability
- Longevity
- Drawing Power
- Charisma
- Mic Skills
- Historical Impact

So there are people high up my list that I'm not a huge fan of, but I cannot deny their drawing power, charisma and historical impact to the 90s in the WWF. Obviously it's impossible to be completely objective but I did my best to make it who 'best defined' the 90s in the WWF according to my own made-up criteria. Not everyone who ranked highly ranked high in each of those categories, but the top four all did. I also only took into account what people did in the WWF in the 90s, which had a big impact. Deciding number one was the most difficult, it could have been any one of four guys and I'm still not happy with who I went with, but wanted to make a decision while I had time to make the list, rather than wait, agonise further and not get one done.

Dec 19, 2017 14:57:15 GMT Baker said:

Dec 19, 2017 14:44:53 GMT Strobe said:

So are people viewing this more as greatest stars of the 90s then since it seems like some are taking kayfabe achievements into account?

Or is it whatever you want it to be? Purely in-ring or overall enjoyment of them as a wrestling package including promos or purely star power or a combo of everything with arbitrary weighting?

I like to leave it open to the voter. Which, yeah, means the whole thing pretty much stands for nothing in the end since there is no set criteria. But it's still fun!

I based my ECW/WCW/90s WWF "Greatest" lists on a combination of star power/kayfabe success/importance to the promotion. I also try to be as objective as possible leaving favoritism out of it until maybe the last few spots where I usually reward one or two of "my guys," but that's probably not going to happen this time around.

But you can interpret anyway you want- purely based on in ring work, favoritism, strictly based on championship success, etc.

Working on rating Ahmed vs. The Model right now. Ahmed burned brightly for a relatively short period of time. Then he was gone. While The Model was a solid fixture in the midcard for years. Right now I'm leaning towards Model > Ahmed.

Since I've got the Model on the brain, he's one of the guys I place in a "block"- in this case, the 'entertaining midcard heel' grouping w/ IRS & Mountie. Another duo I group together is Slaughter & Mr. Backlund as 'the random champions who did little else.'

My assesment of Martel is that he really was only around for the first 3 years of the decade and outside of his Jake run didn't really do much else storyline wise. He had a long Royal Rumble stint in 1991 and made the finals of the IC title tourney. IRS had feuds with Hogan/Beefcake (granted with Money Inc.) and Undertaker while Rougeau was an IC champion beating Bret no less. Needless to say Martel didn't last very long on my list.

Ahmed was one of the guys in retrospect I may have ranked too high but he sure was a big deal the few times I did tune into WWF TV in 1995/96. His peak as nearly the top guy out does Martel's mediocre midcard run imo. Plus Ahmed's feuds with Goldust and the Nation was another element that pushed WWF towards it's "attitude."

Dec 19, 2017 17:37:01 GMT Shootist said:

Dec 19, 2017 14:57:15 GMT Baker said:

I like to leave it open to the voter. Which, yeah, means the whole thing pretty much stands for nothing in the end since there is no set criteria. But it's still fun!

I based my ECW/WCW/90s WWF "Greatest" lists on a combination of star power/kayfabe success/importance to the promotion. I also try to be as objective as possible leaving favoritism out of it until maybe the last few spots where I usually reward one or two of "my guys," but that's probably not going to happen this time around.

But you can interpret anyway you want- purely based on in ring work, favoritism, strictly based on championship success, etc.

Working on rating Ahmed vs. The Model right now. Ahmed burned brightly for a relatively short period of time. Then he was gone. While The Model was a solid fixture in the midcard for years. Right now I'm leaning towards Model > Ahmed.

Since I've got the Model on the brain, he's one of the guys I place in a "block"- in this case, the 'entertaining midcard heel' grouping w/ IRS & Mountie. Another duo I group together is Slaughter & Mr. Backlund as 'the random champions who did little else.'

My assesment of Martel is that he really was only around for the first 3 years of the decade and outside of his Jake run didn't really do much else storyline wise. He had a long Royal Rumble stint in 1991 and made the finals of the IC title tourney. IRS had feuds with Hogan/Beefcake (granted with Money Inc.) and Undertaker while Rougeau was an IC champion beating Bret no less. Needless to say Martel didn't last very long on my list.

Ahmed was one of the guys in retrospect I may have ranked too high but he sure was a big deal the few times I did tune into WWF TV in 1995/96. His peak as nearly the top guy out does Martel's mediocre midcard run imo. Plus Ahmed's feuds with Goldust and the Nation was another element that pushed WWF towards it's "attitude."

I found Ahmed really difficult to rank but I think he was really important for a while and had a fair bit of historical impact.

Model will rank below IRS & Mountie but he's making my list.

I also had trouble ranking Ahmed. Again, he's making my list. I'm just not sure if he'll be closer to #40 or #50. Not that it matters much in the long run, I suppose.

Along the same lines as Ahmed, Tatanka will also land a spot on the bottom quarter of my ballot. Popular midcard babyface for a few years. Probably the longest undefeated streak in the company during the 90s. Memorable heel turn on Luger.

After thinking about it, I may have dismissed Mabel too easily. Vader was on my list. Did Vader really have a better 90s WWF career than Mabel? That seems like an idiotic question at first but it's a hell of a closer than you might think. I still imagine Vader makes it while Mabel doesn't, but it's hardly the landslide Vader victory you might expect.

*Alright! Enough thinking out loud. I want to at least have my main list finished by 3 p.m. today. Time to get to work!

Here's a question...

I'm guessing Doink doesn't make the list, huh?

As a gimmick, the character's run was extended a bit thanks to other wrestlers donning the clown gear.

As a wrestler, I'd only entertain the idea of giving love to Matt Borne. But he wasn't around long enough, didn't win any titles or important matches, and I don't think he even challenged for any titles that I can recall... So he ends up relying exclusively on some good TV matches and somewhat memorable moments from 1993.

I'm not sure that's enough to put this above guys like Martel, who I'm already struggling to keep on my list, considering my loose "objective" criteria.

And another interesting guy I never thought I'd ever want to include on any sort of positive list... Dennis Knight.

He was a multi-time tag champ, "resuscitated" the European title, portrayed several distinct characters, and was involved in a memorable segment as Undertaker's first sacrifice to kick the Ministry of Darkness into gear.

Dec 19, 2017 21:53:57 GMT 🤯 said:

Here's a question...

I'm guessing Doink doesn't make the list, huh?

As a gimmick, the character's run was extended a bit thanks to other wrestlers donning the clown gear.

As a wrestler, I'd only entertain the idea of giving love to Matt Borne. But he wasn't around long enough, didn't win any titles or important matches, and I don't think he even challenged for any titles that I can recall... So he ends up relying exclusively on some good TV matches and somewhat memorable moments from 1993.

I'm not sure that's enough to put this above guys like Martel, who I'm already struggling to keep on my list, considering my loose "objective" criteria.

I briefly considered the character of Doink (encompassing all the guys who played him) but quickly dismissed it because there were like 70 wrestlers I thought were more important.

Didn't even consider Mideon. If HOG is getting cut before Doink then there's no way in hell Phineas is making the list.

For what it's worth I finished my list about an hour ago.

Doink made a first draft of my list but ultimately got cut. He was great but for a very short time.

Fuck, cutting from 57 down to 50 is proving to be the hardest leg of this journey!

Even my 21-40 range could probably use some rankings reshuffling.

Meanwhile, pretty sure 1-8 is set for both the tag and non-wrestler supplemental lists. Figuring out final cuts for 9 and 10 for each though might end up causing a backflow and major reshuffles.

"Objective" countdowns are so much more taxing than favorites countdowns!!!

OK, supplemental lists are finalized.

Objective lists always hurt when it comes to cutting favorites to make room for people who were "greater" by more measurable factors.

Dec 21, 2017 19:24:15 GMT 🤯 said:

Objective lists always hurt when it comes to cutting favorites to make room for people who were "greater" by more measurable factors.

I know. There's two or three wrestlers I had to leave off my main list and one I had to cut from Supplemental that need to get votes so I don't feel THAT guilty about leaving them off. 

Deadline is Thursday January 4th at 8:00 a.m. Eastern Standard Time

No extensions this time around. I'm off work that Thursday & Friday so it'll give me plenty of time to tally the votes and post. 

Got my sups in. Got my main list down to 51. Almost there!

I've only received four ballots including my own. Get 'em in, people!

Will try to get a list in.

I just tripped and fell into Bakers inbox with lists in hand.. Ooops.

Received two more ballots and another supplemental since my last post, bringing the total number of main ballots up to 6 and Supplementals up to 4. Only about 22 hours to go until tomorrow morning's deadline.

Jan 3, 2018 15:07:05 GMT Baker said:

Received two more ballots and another supplemental since my last post, bringing the total number of main ballots up to 6 and Supplementals up to 4. Only about 22 hours to go until tomorrow morning's deadline.

Shit, now I'm irrationally worried... Did my lists come through!? :@

Jan 3, 2018 15:19:35 GMT 🤯 said:

Jan 3, 2018 15:07:05 GMT Baker said:

Received two more ballots and another supplemental since my last post, bringing the total number of main ballots up to 6 and Supplementals up to 4. Only about 22 hours to go until tomorrow morning's deadline.

Shit, now I'm irrationally worried... Did my lists come through!?

Yeah. I got yours like a week ago.

Jan 3, 2018 15:25:36 GMT Baker said:

Jan 3, 2018 15:19:35 GMT 🤯 said:

Shit, now I'm irrationally worried... Did my lists come through!?

Yeah. I got yours like a week ago.

Whew! I meant to follow up with you before... I vaguely recall either my computer or PW throwing some sorta error when I clicked submit, and remember being real worried my shit hadn't gone through. I think the PM chain included my supplemental lists. If it didn't, let me know and I'll resend.

So excited for this countdown!!!

I'm gonna keep voting open for a little while longer. So far we only have 6 voters. I want to get at least 8.