Is college still worthwhile if only like 5 degrees lead to any real jobs? Does a history degree prepare you for anything but teaching history? And there's just not enough of that to go around. Student debt, degree jobs paying not that great honestly, more men not going at all or learning a trade so less time sink. Makes ya think as they gut education, like is college the next industry to be killed?

In the US median income of college graduates is $59600. Median income for people who do not go to college is $36600.

Also majority of trade jobs require a degree from trade school and/or certification. Associate level degrees are becoming the norm. The honest to god no school / no test trades are increasingly rare. At the associate level you make $44100.

nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cba/annual-earnings

Can rally against the system, but most people without degree will simply be considered too stupid to be employable at most places, or if they are even hired, worth far less than there coworkers. If you look at job growth, the jobs with the most growth in the trades pay next to nothing. Everything thinks that trade people are like master carpenters, but the trade jobs with the most growth are healthcare assistants who net around 25k a year. Truckers are also one of the high demand fields making 40k but giving up having a life for their salary.

Then you can just start your own business that will require startup cash.  In America, SBA will not lend to businesses that are not already successful, nor will most banks front for startup costs since most businesses fail in the first year and a failed business has no way to repay debts.  So will likely need an angel investor, or more commonly, a family loan.  College graduates will see more investors, higher percentages of getting loans and better interest rates here too though, as the majority of people assessing their changes for success are college graduates.  Also non-college graduates have a higher rate of business failure than college graduates and greater likelihood to move from self-employment to non-employment when the business fails.  

So basically, college while overpriced, is still the way to go and will be until the overall population no longer uses the college degree as a measure of basic competency.  And while there are exceptions who do better with no college, than they would with college, but they are not common.  

In Australia all apprenticeships involve Trade School, whilst it is just something you have to pass to get certified, when you are done they hand you an associated diploma. I have one in electro technology which is just as unimpressive as it sounds.

I wonder whether the numbers on college versus no college and salaries are related to the education, or instead are a factor of most people of reasonable intelligence being funneled into college.

In many ways information has never been more accessible, once upon a time an institute of learning would be the only place to access knowledge.
Now people's ability to learn is only limited by their willingness to access and apply information.
Of course this is not the case for specialist areas like medicine or engineering.

I don't know the ins and outs of it (and I'm not really that interested) but student debt seems like a much bigger problem than it does here in Australia which does boil things down to a more financial equation which I think is a shame. There is more to life than your salary. I paid for my university as I went so I was never taking on any sort of burden, but obviously that's not an option for everyone. 

I did a degree that some would say was a waste of time, but I don't regret it at all. I didn't get a full-time job in the area that I studied in, and I don't directly use any of the skills I learned like research and writing in what I do now, but not everything has to be a means to an end. I'm prouder of the thesis that I wrote than anything that I've done in 8 years in the workforce, and probably ever will.

For a long time, I felt as if I wasted the best (educational) years of my life doing a course that ultimately lead to nothing.

But now being older and perhaps wiser, I am fully content with having explored something I was interested in. As to @admin point, not everything needs to be a means to an end.

Did I pick up valuable skills? Of course I did. I'm the go-to tech guy as a result, and it highlighted I'm much better in the team leadership and management space than in a creative and/or programming field - which is essentially where I was aiming.

I see a lot of job openings that just want someone with a degree. They don't care what the degree is (or how much experience you might have) - they just don't want some loser who hasn't got one.

A few months ago, I looked at a listing for a tour guide in the city. It wasn't that well paid, but it was just walking around the city with small groups of people and showing them all the usual landmarks (historical buildings, statues, places where famous people lived, all that stuff).

They only wanted people with degrees. I'm confident a degree wouldn't make any difference in your ability to do this job (unless you had a very specific degree focused on locations in this one city), but still - no degree, no tour guide job!

Then again, in my last job I ( with no degree!) was working at the same level/slightly higher as people who'd worked there longer and had degrees. I'm not really sure what point I'm trying to make TBH.

Jul 3, 2022 2:18:18 GMT @ness said:

Is college still worthwhile if only like 5 degrees lead to any real jobs? Does a history degree prepare you for anything but teaching history? And there's just not enough of that to go around. Student debt, degree jobs paying not that great honestly, more men not going at all or learning a trade so less time sink. Makes ya think as they gut education, like is college the next industry to be killed?

I think it depends on why someone goes to college. For some people it's job training. For others it's about experiencing life and learning how to be an adult. Even if you don't get a lucrative degree, ideally you learned a lot of higher level thinking and communicating skills. 

The vast majority do not go to college for job skills either. Generally job skills are graduate education when you start to focus more.

I actually started Phoenix College online 2 weeks ago. So easy. Almost too easy. Feels like a trap.

It is a trap. Only 15% of people who start Phoenix graduate.

Jul 4, 2022 19:54:52 GMT c said:

It is a trap. Only 15% of people who start Phoenix graduate.

<_< Probably not thhhhhhhhhhhat far off from real college.

Jul 4, 2022 19:46:45 GMT KING KID said:

I actually started Phoenix College online 2 weeks ago. So easy. Almost too easy. Feels like a trap.

What are you studying?

Jul 4, 2022 20:50:26 GMT Gyro LC said:

Jul 4, 2022 19:46:45 GMT KING KID said:

I actually started Phoenix College online 2 weeks ago. So easy. Almost too easy. Feels like a trap.

What are you studying?

Business. 

I am the 15%. 

Like @aaron said, here a degree is the new High School diploma. It could be in Underwater Basket Weaving, but they want you to have one for any job where you MIGHT be making more than minimum wage. Maybe because they know you'll likely have student loans and therefore be more likely to be indebted to them work wise or maybe because it shows commitment to something. I don't know.

What I do know is now that it's back to being more of an employees market (even though many employers are still not acting like it), experience is back to being tantamount which is good for someone like me who has no degree, but can learn most everything fairly quickly, has a butt load of experience and can usually out work those with a degree.

However, this also leaves me at risk for employers paying me less because I do not have a degree.  "We know you have 15 years of ACTUAL experience - not theoretical bullshit, but because you don't have a Bachelor's of Arts degree (which might as well be called the Useless Degree), we're going to use this as an excuse to pay you 5-10% less than those who do even though you are training them and do three times their work load."  

That's what I went for. Was planning on getting ANY degree and hoped it would give me a good job via resume/joining the air force.

I didn't finish as I joined the AF when I reached the max age and here I am.

I think college needs an overhaul to what it actually is, or perhaps the narrative surrounding it does.

I don't think it's the MITB briefcase I was led to believe, but it's also not completely worthless either. Perhaps like many things it's simply overpriced because of the govt guarantee.

Just think it's insane that degree jobs are paying the same as fast food and manual labor. Like fuck off.

Jul 4, 2022 20:53:26 GMT KING KID said:

Jul 4, 2022 20:50:26 GMT Gyro LC said:

What are you studying?

Business. 

I am the 15%. 

Make sure it is possible.  Usually the finally classes you need to complete a degree are near impossible to take.  The early ones are all offered readily, but these schools make taking the advanced classes very painful.

Jul 4, 2022 20:56:53 GMT @ness said:

That's what I went for. Was planning on getting ANY degree and hoped it would give me a good job via resume/joining the air force.

I didn't finish as I joined the AF when I reached the max age and here I am.

I think college needs an overhaul to what it actually is, or perhaps the narrative surrounding it does.

I don't think it's the MITB briefcase I was led to believe, but it's also not completely worthless either. Perhaps like many things it's simply overpriced because of the govt guarantee.

Just think it's insane that degree jobs are paying the same as fast food and manual labor. Like fuck off.

The narrative behind it should chance.  What college actually is for varies so much from person to person.  Education itself is now a secondary goal in most programs as more and more goals are added to the college experience by stakeholders.  While you can come out of college job ready, you need to plan to do so and pick the right classes with the right people to do so.

In practical terms the difference between BA and BS is calculus.  Otherwise the two degrees are not very different.  BS you take more science, BA more non-science.  

Jul 4, 2022 20:56:04 GMT iron maiden said:

Like @aaron said, here a degree is the new High School diploma.

One retailer here in Australia, requires Store Managers, Group Managers to hold a Bachelors degree... in anything. Anything, related or completely unrelated to business/retail. It doesn't matter.

Why? Because it allegedly shows an individual's want to improve themselves. And, in short.. it allegedly shows an individual's level of intelligence.

Does a college education = higher intelligence? I know, a number of people with University degrees, who can discuss their field of work in considerable detail, but have absolutely zero street smarts, emotional intelligence and limited knowledge of the outside world. They essentially live in bubbles.

Jul 3, 2022 3:24:56 GMT c said:

In the US median income of college graduates is $59600. Median income for people who do not go to college is $36600.

Also majority of trade jobs require a degree from trade school and/or certification. Associate level degrees are becoming the norm. The honest to god no school / no test trades are increasingly rare. At the associate level you make $44100.

nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cba/annual-earnings

Can rally against the system, but most people without degree will simply be considered too stupid to be employable at most places, or if they are even hired, worth far less than there coworkers. If you look at job growth, the jobs with the most growth in the trades pay next to nothing. Everything thinks that trade people are like master carpenters, but the trade jobs with the most growth are healthcare assistants who net around 25k a year. Truckers are also one of the high demand fields making 40k but giving up having a life for their salary.

Then you can just start your own business that will require startup cash.  In America, SBA will not lend to businesses that are not already successful, nor will most banks front for startup costs since most businesses fail in the first year and a failed business has no way to repay debts.  So will likely need an angel investor, or more commonly, a family loan.  College graduates will see more investors, higher percentages of getting loans and better interest rates here too though, as the majority of people assessing their changes for success are college graduates.  Also non-college graduates have a higher rate of business failure than college graduates and greater likelihood to move from self-employment to non-employment when the business fails.  

So basically, college while overpriced, is still the way to go and will be until the overall population no longer uses the college degree as a measure of basic competency.  And while there are exceptions who do better with no college, than they would with college, but they are not common.  

I wonder how much that’s adjusted for area. As college grads are more likely to cluster in cities where the cost of living is also higher, it affects this number, possibly significantly. I’d also be curious to see where this number is for people 30/35 and younger compared to all people. I’m assuming the trades folk probably plateau earlier, while some lucky few from the bachelors group really spike the score.

Area I am interested in is the college sex gap now. 10% more women go to college than men, as conservative men see college as woke these days and are in increasing numbers opting out.

In general from what I see the the trades plateau early, while college graduates degrees have the largest rate of return at post 50. Doing cohort level statistics single numbers will have very little impact overall since the cohorts are 4 million large.

Jul 4, 2022 23:18:39 GMT NATH45 said:

Jul 4, 2022 20:56:04 GMT iron maiden said:

Like @aaron said, here a degree is the new High School diploma.

One retailer here in Australia, requires Store Managers, Group Managers to hold a Bachelors degree... in anything. Anything, related or completely unrelated to business/retail. It doesn't matter.

Why? Because it allegedly shows an individual's want to improve themselves. And, in short.. it allegedly shows an individual's level of intelligence.

Does a college education = higher intelligence? I know, a number of people with University degrees, who can discuss their field of work in considerable detail, but have absolutely zero street smarts, emotional intelligence and limited knowledge of the outside world. They essentially live in bubbles.

I can understand the methodology of employing someone who has invested in themselves by way of doing a degree.
What really confuses me is how HR know who to hire out of a pool of nearly identical graduates.
I have mentioned before that I deal with a number of graduate engineers hired to assist on projects and everything about them is generic, they all think the same and apply the same logic.
It's a shame more companies don't do cadetships where they send the successful applicants to college part time and have them work in the business one or two days per week.
I have no doubt that in many fields it will increase not only the ability of a student to learn and remember, but also their ability to apply knowledge.

Jul 5, 2022 4:59:49 GMT c said:

Area I am interested in is the college sex gap now. 10% more women go to college than men, as conservative men see college as woke these days and are in increasing numbers opting out.

In general from what I see the the trades plateau early, while college graduates degrees have the largest rate of return at post 50. Doing cohort level statistics single numbers will have very little impact overall since the cohorts are 4 million large.

I would love to see a study on this in Australia.

So a 4 year degree in tuition is going to cost you about 30k per year here which is 120k for a BA.
This is the going rate for an electrician apprentice (I started many years ago at $5.20 per hour)



If I work those out...Someone finishes their apprenticeship having earned a gross of:



(That assumes no overtime, but also doesn't include fuel and tools, but I didn't include that for the students either)

After qualification: A-Class Licensed Electricians Hourly Rate = 82 - 110k per year gross

So the degree qualified person starts their life at -120k and the sparky is +129k
A graduate engineer is earning $73,952 per year in Australia... Roughly.



Looks like about age 34 it crosses over.
Mind you, this doesn't include overtime for the Electrician.

Industry related skills are thought based on what businesses tell the department or the board they need. The logic you may hate may be what other groups are dictating the students need to be hirable by them.

Jul 5, 2022 5:20:53 GMT c said:

Industry related skills are thought based on what businesses tell the department or the board they need. The logic you may hate may be what other groups are dictating the students need to be hirable by them.

If you are telling me that HR is broken across most businesses, I am not surprised.

Jul 5, 2022 5:53:58 GMT iNCY said:

Jul 5, 2022 5:20:53 GMT c said:

Industry related skills are thought based on what businesses tell the department or the board they need. The logic you may hate may be what other groups are dictating the students need to be hirable by them.

If you are telling me that HR is broken across most businesses, I am not surprised.

It's no longer known as "Human Resources"

It's.. People & Culture Partners.... or " Team Experience " Partners. 

Hence your point, HR is broken. 

10 years ago, I couldn't tell you who my HR was. Today, anytime the wind changes direction - there's a communication. 

HR would also be who you send to colleges to tell them what graduates need to be employed at their businesses.

///

Clearly there is no option left. We need to get rid of @admin before he breaks us here as well!!!

Hiring is hard. Considering the limited amount of info and generally quick timeframe, it’s no surprise there are a lot of regretful hires. Hell, sports teams spend millions of dollars on teams solely dedicated to analyzing players who appear on hours and hours of game film and they screw up all the time.

www.news.com.au/finance/harder-grim-tradie-trend-sweeping-aus/news-story/95f6d5a3a2632f3a4031027d770b938a

Super bump

I attended a tour of some adult education courses last week. Honestly while hvac was the focus I gotta say welding looked pretty good in its own right. No doubt there's gonna be a big skills deficit coming soon. They basically said all the old heads retiring and took the knowledge with them.

I swear dude I wish I had gone that route in high school or right after. It felt like they almost actively discouraged normies to do anything but 4 yrs of book learning instead of trades which seemed to only be pushed on the disabled kids.

Of course during the tour I was low-key fantasizing about being the schools maintenance when I saw their closets. Just dreaming about changing lights on a scissor lift...

It ebbs and flows here where they push the trades in school. The are planning for a mass retirement in the next few years of baby boomers or older Gen Xers so we seem to be on an ebb right now. Because of the Oil Sands Industry here, Alberta is a very blue collar trades orientated Province. Not all kids are going to be lawyers and doctors so it's good to show them what else is out there.

I'm a little bitter right now now because the courses I am doing for my designation, seem to be more of a cash grab than any kind of skills upgrade or learning opportunity. That being said I know I need to have it, but it's a struggle weekly to remind myself why I am doing it.

It's interesting now that I'm 20 years removed from what would be the correct age to attend Uni/College and now seeing the majority of people my age I know who attended Uni for 3 or 4 years now working in completely unrelated fields.

I maybe know one guy who has had the same job with the same company since the day he left Uni and is still utilising his degree.

Look, that's not a shot at idea of Uni, but reassurance maybe, it's doesn't need to a locked in thing until the day you die.

I also know guys who swapped in office jobs for trades, and tradies who swapped it in for office jobs. The same with guys with degrees in business who came to work in retail, and retail managers who went to work in business...

Every 40 something tradie I know is trying to get off the tools and every office bloke I know is bored to death.

So, I don't think there's a definite answer on what is better. It's the individual and what works for them that's key.