So the social media upload of the Rocks return have broken records for WWE

What does this say,?

I say it means the Rock is still a better draw than the entire Raw and Smackdown roster combined.

What do you thi.... It doesn't matter what you think?

And while I'm being unpopular, Cody Rhodes and Roman Reigns are bland and I still hope Triple H does in a firey car accident

I'm hoping that Rock costs Roman his belt at the Rumble to Damien Priest cashing in his MITB leaving Roman vs Rock for The Head Of The Table title and frees up Cody to win the Elimination Chamber #1 Contender match and he goes on to face Damien Priest at Wrestlemania and wins the WWE Undisputed Championship to finish his story. Roman vs Rock doesn't need the championship. It sells itself. Damien gets to main event Wrestlemania with Cody Rhodes and Cody wins.

As much as I hate to say it, it's true - The Rock is still one of the biggest names in wrestling. 

And I do hate to say that, because his Hollywood persona is one of the most unauthentic in the business. 

On one hand the WWE has never been more profitable. It's global reach is massive and it's on the hottest streak it's had in 20 years. But the one thing WWE, and everyone in wrestling has failed to do over the last 20 years is create a real megastar on the same level as The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin and Hulk Hogan.. or Ric Flair for that matter - with the exception of John Cena and maybe, Brock - who is more of an attraction. 

On the flipside, storytelling during The Attitude Era was garbage and relied heavily on shock and awe tactics and guys like The Rock making chicken salad out of chicken shit. The storytelling today is much richer, particularly under Hunter's watch, as is the in ring product. 

Cena made a great point back in 2017. Cena was still here, because Reigns couldn't do his job. And that's arguably a reason why Rock, Austin and Cena are so valuable to the WWE still to this day, because no-one has had all the tools to be able to reach those heights. Even Reigns, who has reached the promise land and can likely lay claim to being the most profitable Champ in history, isn't anywhere near that level but is very much enjoying a record breaking run because there's no one else even close to taking his spot. The WWE Title is more valuable on him, a guy that barely shows up than one someone like Seth Rollins who works every week. 

Jan 7, 2024 11:26:37 GMT kbc said:

I'm hoping that Rock costs Roman his belt at the Rumble to Damien Priest cashing in his MITB leaving Roman vs Rock for The Head Of The Table title and frees up Cody to win the Elimination Chamber #1 Contender match and he goes on to face Damien Priest at Wrestlemania and wins the WWE Undisputed Championship to finish his story. Roman vs Rock doesn't need the championship. It sells itself. Damien gets to main event Wrestlemania with Cody Rhodes and Cody wins.

I understand wanting to have the best of both worlds, but I think it would actively hurt Cody if his first title win was against somebody of Priest's calibre. That's still a huge pay off they can milk, so they have to be careful about how they deliver it otherwise it'll just hurt Cody and the company.

Priest I doubt will ever hold the World Title. Unless they go back to Puerto Rico and the cash in is the main event.

Cody's gotta take the WWE Championship, there just isn't anyone else.

I always look forward to iNCY wishing death on The Nose. 10/10 would read again.

I have no particular passion for the WWE, yet I still felt disappointed that the sole reason so many PWers tuned into Raw on Monday night is the potential of The Rock, and nothing about the current product.

Yet on reflection, it's not the indictment on modern WWE as it seems to be. The Rock drawing in more fans is not an insult to the top stars of today, it's simply the way things are. The Rock was at the top of the mountain at a time when pro-wrestling was at its most popular. The Rock was not just a popular wrestler, he became a pop culture icon. A status that only became greater with his Hollywood career. He's magnetic like few other people in the world, he draws people to him. Combine that with the irresistible force of nostalgia, and of course the millions and millions will tune in for The Rock.

WWE is strong. The Rock makes it stronger, as would Steve Austin or The Undertaker or any of the WWE nostagia acts. That's how human nature works.

The Rock and any other legend routinely coming back for a short stint doesn't really do much for me anymore. The Rock's promo on Mahal felt like the same stuff he's been doing for 2 decades now. The "Day One Douchebag" thing felt almost like the same insult he made on Austin Theory last year. It's just gotten stale. Cena's stuff as well too.

There's only so much Nostalgia can do for me to care at this point. It's just a stale act. Maybe when Rock gets into it full gear vs Reigns in a feud/promo war will I sit there at the edge of my seat but it's like what can Rock say or do to make this fresh? He's been on WWE TV for so long, same with Undertaker that you've seen everything out of the bag.

I guess the casual audience loves it which is who Rock is intended for but this Monday night promo, I just said "Seen this before" and just disconnected myself from the Rock schtick.

I thought the best thing Rock said was the Sheiky Baby stuff which I guess has meaning since Mahal was bad mouthing America? But that's maybe more so because I loved the Sheiky Baby character from Iron Sheik. 

Jan 7, 2024 12:25:35 GMT NATH45 said:

As much as I hate to say it, it's true - The Rock is still one of the biggest names in wrestling. 

And I do hate to say that, because his Hollywood persona is one of the most unauthentic in the business. 

On one hand the WWE has never been more profitable. It's global reach is massive and it's on the hottest streak it's had in 20 years. But the one thing WWE, and everyone in wrestling has failed to do over the last 20 years is create a real megastar on the same level as The Rock and Stone Cold Steve Austin and Hulk Hogan.. or Ric Flair for that matter - with the exception of John Cena and maybe, Brock - who is more of an attraction. 

On the flipside, storytelling during The Attitude Era was garbage and relied heavily on shock and awe tactics and guys like The Rock making chicken salad out of chicken shit. The storytelling today is much richer, particularly under Hunter's watch, as is the in ring product. 

Cena made a great point back in 2017. Cena was still here, because Reigns couldn't do his job. And that's arguably a reason why Rock, Austin and Cena are so valuable to the WWE still to this day, because no-one has had all the tools to be able to reach those heights. Even Reigns, who has reached the promise land and can likely lay claim to being the most profitable Champ in history, isn't anywhere near that level but is very much enjoying a record breaking run because there's no one else even close to taking his spot. The WWE Title is more valuable on him, a guy that barely shows up than one someone like Seth Rollins who works every week. 

How much can we blame the wrestlers and how much can we blame Corporate WWE for that? I'm sure we can all sit here and name 5 wrestlers off the top of our heads that were getting over organically and the WWE failed to capitalize on or got over zealous and over pushed them right out of what they were attempting to do. 

We've had threads upon threads over the years discussing how the WWE was not 'building' wrestlers/superstars properly anymore. A lot of that I contribute the Powers that Be lack of patience and not allowing feuds and storylines to run their course and listen to the fans. You could argue times have change and that people have shorter attention spans, but the best storyline in recent memory was The Bloodline storyline(s) and that sucker was a slow burn for a year+. In fact when I look back most of the feuds/matches with slow burning build ups have been the most exciting. 

Also, The Rock isn't just an 'old' wrestler or Sports Entertainment figure, he's one of the biggest names in Entertainment period. So it's not surprising to me that so many tuned in to see him, for a feeling of nostalgia, etc., 

iron maiden, I think the WWE understood that putting all their eggs in one or two baskets again was a bad idea. If you compare WWE in 2002 vs WWE in 2004, WWE is remarkably different as is the interest in the product - Rock has gone, Austin has gone, Brock has gone - all these guys that are meant to be franchise players are gone. The interest in the product begins to decrease as a result as the key players ( the guys that put butts in seats and get eyes on the product ) are gone.

Then there's sort of a period where the second tier guys are getting main event spots. Then realistically the only guy to ever achieve that level of super-stardom again is John Cena. Again, they make this same mistake and go all in on Cena ( that's not a bad thing, he's now considered a GOAT ) but some day John Cena is going to get old and they'll need to replace him - they flirt with Reigns as the top babyface and it doesn't exactly work, then someone, somewhere finally realises that no one man should be bigger than the WWE.

So instead of having one or two A++ talents and 30 or so B-C+ players, they aim for 20 A players instead and that's what they have today - a lot of great talent, but not necessarily any A++.

And that's ok, but the flipside is, those A++ get and maintain eyes on the product. If someone plucked Rocky and Hunter out of 2000 and Austin out of 1998 and dropped them in 2024, it would be a game changer for WWE over-night. Because regardless of " era " they were on a different level to today's talent.

Jan 7, 2024 15:03:20 GMT Emperor said:

I have no particular passion for the WWE, yet I still felt disappointed that the sole reason so many PWers tuned into Raw on Monday night is the potential of The Rock, and nothing about the current product.

Yet on reflection, it's not the indictment on modern WWE as it seems to be. The Rock drawing in more fans is not an insult to the top stars of today, it's simply the way things are. The Rock was at the top of the mountain at a time when pro-wrestling was at its most popular. The Rock was not just a popular wrestler, he became a pop culture icon. A status that only became greater with his Hollywood career. He's magnetic like few other people in the world, he draws people to him. Combine that with the irresistible force of nostalgia, and of course the millions and millions will tune in for The Rock.

WWE is strong. The Rock makes it stronger, as would Steve Austin or The Undertaker or any of the WWE nostagia acts. That's how human nature works.

With all due respect, I am sure you have that completely backwards.
I agree that "the Rock was at the top of the mountain at a time when pro-wrestling was at its most popular", I would argue that it was because of Austin / Rock etc. that Wrestling hit the peak it did.
Doesn't the off the charts viewing of the social medial clips back this up? People who love the idea of ProWrestling, just not the execution of it today.

Was the writing shitty in the attitude era, yes... That was why it worked, find a guy with charisma and let him do his thing, it is the difference between authenticity and the current paint by numbers writing of story lines.
The only time the WWE awesome these days is when the fans force the WWE to let them have their way like Bryan winning the title.

The current process is like watching the Voice or America's got talent or whatever...
They pick a star who has all the credentials and they get maybe one or two top selling songs and then drift into obscurity.
They don't have the X-Factor (Ironic I know)
The Rock does have this, even if he can't move in the ring like some of the others.

Jan 8, 2024 1:45:05 GMT NATH45 said:

iron maiden , I think the WWE understood that putting all their eggs in one or two baskets again was a bad idea. If you compare WWE in 2002 vs WWE in 2004, WWE is remarkably different as is the interest in the product - Rock has gone, Austin has gone, Brock has gone - all these guys that are meant to be franchise players are gone. The interest in the product begins to decrease as a result as the key players ( the guys that put butts in seats and get eyes on the product ) are gone.

Then there's sort of a period where the second tier guys are getting main event spots. Then realistically the only guy to ever achieve that level of super-stardom again is John Cena. Again, they make this same mistake and go all in on Cena ( that's not a bad thing, he's now considered a GOAT ) but some day John Cena is going to get old and they'll need to replace him - they flirt with Reigns as the top babyface and it doesn't exactly work, then someone, somewhere finally realises that no one man should be bigger than the WWE.

So instead of having one or two A++ talents and 30 or so B-C+ players, they aim for 20 A players instead and that's what they have today - a lot of great talent, but not necessarily any A++.

And that's ok, but the flipside is, those A++ get and maintain eyes on the product. If someone plucked Rocky and Hunter out of 2000 and Austin out of 1998 and dropped them in 2024, it would be a game changer for WWE over-night. Because regardless of " era " they were on a different level to today's talent.

If we are talking moneyball type strategy I get what you are saying.
HOWEVER.... There are is only one metric that matters in wrestling.
Bums on seats which is the power to get someone to switch from their favourite show/streaming service to watch WWE content, can you draw.

The WWE disappeared up it's own asshole in the HHH dominant era, the viewership was continually dropping, but the highest rating segment was always HHH so they used that to justify the push.
It doesn't really matter how large your slice of the pie is when it is shrinking rapidly.

You can pad the roster with the A level talent, but I don't think you are going to get people to switch on, just stop the existing ones switching off.


But I think all of this would be difficult to explain to a Board of Directors and when you are  a publicly traded company, what you can sell to the shareholders matters more than what you sell to the fans.

Well The Rock has come back and before and hasn't set these kind of numbers. The only difference is this time he's signalled his intentions to challenge Roman Reigns for the title - a program both parties have been building towards over the years. The Rock even promoted a potential match-up in his navel-gazing TV show.

The Rock is a big star and the WWE are always going to work with talent of that profile to boost their brand. However Pro Wrestling is also hot right now and fans are really relishing the live experince. Thanks in part to COVID but also thanks to an uptick in creative and the presence of AEW to help build new stars.

It was a similar environment that helped The Rock become The Rock. I reckon if The Rock had have come through in the 00s, he would have essentially stayed Rocky Maivia and you'd only see small slithers of The Rock because the WWE could coast on their big tent-pole shows. Coming through in the Monday Night Wars, you had all three promotions inspiring one another to come up with good stuff and some great competitiveness that saw everyone have to step it up.

Once WCW was gone it all started to tailspin. It wasn't just Hunter, there was the Austin heel turn, the poorly thought out Invasion angle and just over-reliance on writers in general where the show started to resemble a bad skit show than an actual Pro Wrestling product.

I just hope this isn't just another greatest hits run and they really bring their A-game for this feud. This has been years in the making and I think The Rock has always been at his best when he switches things up like he did in 2003 where he leaned into being a Hollywood douchebag.

Jan 8, 2024 12:44:27 GMT iNCY said:

With all due respect, I am sure you have that completely backwards.
I agree that "the Rock was at the top of the mountain at a time when pro-wrestling was at its most popular", I would argue that it was because of Austin / Rock etc. that Wrestling hit the peak it did.

I absolutely agree, and I didn't mean to suggest anything different.

Jan 8, 2024 12:44:27 GMT iNCY said:

Doesn't the off the charts viewing of the social medial clips back this up? People who love the idea of ProWrestling, just not the execution of it today.

I assume you mean social media clips of The Rock and Jinder Mahal. Based on that assumption, people who viewed those clips don't love the idea of pro wrestling, they love the idea of The Rock verbally laying the smackdown on someone. That's not wrestling, it isn't even a wrestling promo in the traditional sense (The Rock ain't selling a match), it's essentially a roast.

Jan 8, 2024 12:44:27 GMT iNCY said:

You can pad the roster with the A level talent, but I don't think you are going to get people to switch on, just stop the existing ones switching off.

That's the way pro-wrestling is nowadays. It's comfortably been in its own little niche for many years. Pro-wrestling at its core is dumb entertainment, and it takes a select breed of people to watch it without feeling repulsed or bored. I don't think pro-wrestling is trying to appeal to new fans. Just making the best product for people who are already invested, whether it's current fans or lapsed fans who occasionally drop in for a nostalgia rush.

I'd be very curious to see how the viewership numbers turn out if The Rock returned full time for, say, a year. I strongly suspect that after a month or two the novelty wears off and the viewership drops to where it was pre-Rock.

I don’t see the Rock’s return as any sort of indictment of the current product. Average live attendance is at its highest point since 2002, which was the last time Raw and SmackDown sold out regularly. Is it as hot as it was when Rock was on top? No and it never will be. There’s just too much on TV/streaming/gaming and whatever else for wrestling to capture pop culture like that again. But honestly, I never thought it would even get this hot again. I wonder if it’ll peter out when Reigns finally loses.

I think Roman Reigns is one of the best to ever do it. Rock vs Roman would shatter records, in my opinion. I think it’s the feud that everyone was tuning in for more so then oh The Rock is back again. Everyone wants to see Rock/Roman. I think the last time something was this exciting in the WWE, it was the anticipation for The Wyatt Family and the Shield to clash.

Similarity? Roman Reigns.

Feels like the only match left for Roman and didn't think it was happening. Guess slowdown in Hollywood via the strike helped us there.

Jan 8, 2024 21:14:35 GMT @ness said:

Feels like the only match left for Roman and didn't think it was happening. Guess slowdown in Hollywood via the strike helped us there.

Or all the bad publicity Rock was getting…. 

Jan 8, 2024 21:16:53 GMT KING KID said:

Jan 8, 2024 21:14:35 GMT @ness said:

Feels like the only match left for Roman and didn't think it was happening. Guess slowdown in Hollywood via the strike helped us there.

Or all the bad publicity Rock was getting…. 

What bad publicity? You mean like people who have never met him assuming he's an ass or criticizing him because he plays the same character? Cause NO other action star has done that.  

I guess you could refer to essentially killing the DCU. Or, the fact he can't work on another one of the other biggest franchises in history due to again, ego. Or the backlash faced regarding the Hawaiian relief. Which was kinda weird, because he dropped $5m.

Or his sickening level of toxic positivity.

But, but... Rock standing across the ring from Roman Regins would be goosebumps. It would be an amazing moment. No words said, just a Hogan v Rock stare down and Rocky stepping back and signalling Reigns to just bring it.

Jan 8, 2024 22:01:34 GMT iron maiden said:

Jan 8, 2024 21:16:53 GMT KING KID said:

Or all the bad publicity Rock was getting…. 

What bad publicity? You mean like people who have never met him assuming he's an ass or criticizing him because he plays the same character? Cause NO other action star has done that.  

Apparently he was doing shady shit with his Black Adam movie/franchise and then things came out about him with Fast & Furious too. Then there’s the whole Hawaii thing with Oprah and him being a groomer. 

Hollyweird things. 

Jan 8, 2024 22:16:11 GMT NATH45 said:

I guess you could refer to essentially killing the DCU. Or, the fact he can't work on another one of the other biggest franchises in history due to again, ego. Or the backlash faced regarding the Hawaiian relief. Which was kinda weird, because he dropped $5m.

Or his sickening level of toxic positivity.

But, but... Rock standing across the ring from Roman Regins would be goosebumps. It would be an amazing moment. No words said, just a Hogan v Rock stare down and Rocky stepping back and signalling Reigns to just bring it.

Basically. 

Jan 8, 2024 22:16:11 GMT NATH45 said:

I guess you could refer to essentially killing the DCU. Or, the fact he can't work on another one of the other biggest franchises in history due to again, ego. Or the backlash faced regarding the Hawaiian relief. Which was kinda weird, because he dropped $5m.

Or his sickening level of toxic positivity.

Jan 8, 2024 22:19:02 GMT KING KID said:

Jan 8, 2024 22:01:34 GMT iron maiden said:

What bad publicity? You mean like people who have never met him assuming he's an ass or criticizing him because he plays the same character? Cause NO other action star has done that.  

Apparently he was doing shady shit with his Black Adam movie/franchise and then things came out about him with Fast & Furious too. Then there’s the whole Hawaii thing with Oprah and him being a groomer. 

Hollyweird things. 

What a pile of horse shit.

Let's address these all in order shall we:

1) Killing the DCU

DC/WB killed the DCU not The fucking Rock. Hell, he even used his clout to get them to bring Henry Cavill back as Superman (which is what the fans wanted) after DC said they were recasting Superman (and the entire JL)...again.  Which is DC's downfall.  Like the WWE they take too long to move on things - like Black Adam (with The Rock) which the fans had been asking for FOR YEARS and then when they flop, they blame everyone else. Justice League was 2017. 6 years ago. They could have capitalized, but I get it: COVID and then once COVID was done decided to recast everyone even though The Flash and Aquaman 2 were still due out.  They can't seem to get success on film if it isn't Batman. Wonder Woman was a surprise anomaly and no one supported WW 1984 because it was crap. Utter trash and that's coming from likely the biggest WW fan you know. Black Adam wasn't the only recent DC flop: Blue Beetle, The Flash, Aquaman...to put the blame squarely on The Rock is wrong.

2) Not being able to work on Fast and The Furious. 

Okay, so he has an ego.  So do most of the testosterone driven cast from that franchise. In fact Jason Statham and Vin Diesel have the same clause in their contract so they all have to share the pain and no one loses which comes off as:



This is hardly new. Steve McQueen and Paul Newman famously clashed on the set of The Towering Inferno. But sure let's lambaste The Rock. 

3. Hawaiian Relief

I can't even. The man can't win. He gave 5 million. Then he gave a seven figure donation to SAG-AFTRA of which they criticized him for because his money would be to support 'rich actors'. Dumbasses. Most SAG-AFTRA actors were not high paying stars and behind the scenes personnel and that's where his donation was going to. I met people who worked for WWE and they said right behind Cena for person who treated everyone well and did the most for charities and the fans was The Rock.  People should know their role and shut their mouths. There are lots of rich people who don't give to charity at all so fuck the critics. 

4. Toxic positivity

I hate this term. Are we really such assholes now that even positivity is toxic? I didn't think working hard, trying to be a good person and being grateful everyday for where you've been and came from was toxic. I think that's more of 'you/them' thing if you feel that way.

5. Groomer

I haven't seen anything about him being a groomer past his grooming habits. I label this as BS bordering on slander. 

It's okay to not like someone, but jeez let's deal in facts people.  The Rock is good for business.  The Rock vs Roman is what people want to see and what they've been working towards for years. 

Sheesh girl. I’m pumped for a match with Roman and him. I was just saying…. 😂

Don't talk shit about Mr. Maiden!

Jan 8, 2024 23:45:06 GMT KING KID said:

Sheesh girl. I’m pumped for a match with Roman and him. I was just saying…. 😂

I'm just putting it all out there for any of the naysayers. 

People can't talk about my future ex husband that way. EDIT: (see @ness knows what's up)

Hey @ness . You think I could get on McDevitt's team?

iron maiden his team has to answer a lot of EMAILS.

Jan 8, 2024 23:51:05 GMT @ness said:

iron maiden his team has to answer a lot of EMAILS.

But do they answer all the questions within those emails?

Jan 8, 2024 22:19:02 GMT KING KID said:

Jan 8, 2024 22:01:34 GMT iron maiden said:

What bad publicity? You mean like people who have never met him assuming he's an ass or criticizing him because he plays the same character? Cause NO other action star has done that.  

Apparently he was doing shady shit with his Black Adam movie/franchise and then things came out about him with Fast & Furious too. Then there’s the whole Hawaii thing with Oprah and him being a groomer. 

Hollyweird things. 

KING KID why are you channeling small penis energy into my thread?

Jeez, that escalated quickly.

The DCU sucks anyway, but the story goes he meddled and big balled and pissed everyone involved off and then pushed his tequila brand on them to sponsor the premier, which went down like a sack of bricks because.. it's largely a movie aimed at teenagers.

The celebrities asking for money thing always amazes me, some of these people could cure world hunger if they really wanted to and I'm sure they give a lot to charity. But the frustration arises from celebrities of this stature having so much cash it ain't funny, and asking the average person to donate. There was also some debate and redefining the definition of what it means when someone " pledges $XYZ dollars " as very briefly I believe the story was that Rock and Oprah " pledged " a tonne of money.. and by " pledge " it actually meant raising money through donations instead of reaching into an old wallet and pulling out the money themselves.